Should Cities Install Moving Sidewalks? 698
theodp writes "The real problem nowadays is how to move crowds,' said the manager of the failed Trottoir Roulant Rapide high-speed (9 km/h) people mover project. 'They can travel fast over long distances with the TGV (high-speed train) or airplanes, but not over short distances (under 1 km).' Slate's Tom Vanderbilt explores whether moving walkways might be viable for urban transportation. The first moving sidewalks were unveiled at Chicago's 1893 Columbian Exposition, and at one point seemed destined to supplant some subways, but never took root in cities for a variety of reasons. Vanderbilt turns to science fiction for inspiration, where 30 mph walkways put today's tortoise-like speed ranges of .5-.83 m/s to shame. In the meantime, Jerry Seinfeld will just have to learn to live with 'the people who get onto the moving walkway and just stand there. Like it's a ride.'"
Obesity? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't it be a better idea for people to walk those short distances, given how fat people are these days?
Re:Obesity? (Score:5, Funny)
You say that like it's not what is happening... like.. now...
It's best not to generalize people. Everyone does that nowadays, geez.
Re:Obesity? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Those are probably areas that are not particularly walkable. Hell, stationary sidewalks aren't even omnipresent in the US suburbs, and these people think we should build maintenance-nightmare, energy wasting, moving sidewalks?
If you want these people to walk instead of drive, the first step would be to tear up the parking lots and install street-level retail where restaurants could be established.
The only person who would think moving sidewalks are a good idea is a person with a patent for a moving sidewalk
Re:Obesity? (Score:4, Interesting)
You might want to look at some statistics [who.int] ;-).
Though to be clear: several European countries do have a big problem with obesity -- the UK and Germany are worst.
Re:Obesity? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you go to that page, be sure to see the BMI >30 map for males (why no total?). The US is miles ahead of the rest with 44.2%, for comparison UK has 23.7% and Germany 22.9%. This corresponds well to what I've seen, many people all over Europe are getting chubby from office work, no exercise and fast food. But almost every time I see one of those quarter ton people, it's an American. There's just a completely different attitude to being really, really huge. It's no surprise many americans identify with Homer Simpson...
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Let's be more specific... it's a US phenomenon being exported to the rest of the world.
I guess it might also have something to do with the electric motor being at
Re:Obesity? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes! Because statistically valid data are far inferior to anecdotal evidence!
*facepalm*
I'm, sorry USA, whilst the rest of the west is getting chubby, nobody (and I mean nobody) does land-whales like the US of A.
Re:Obesity? (Score:4, Insightful)
Science is nice. But I'm just going to go by my experience and side with the flat earth theory.
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Right. Because you could easily walk to your car, drive somewhere, park, order lunch, eat it, walk back to your car, drive back to the office and park in the same time.
escalators too (Score:5, Insightful)
this will just lead to the escalator effect... Rather then continuing to walk up or down the stairs as they move, people just get on and stand still. The same will happen with these walkways, rather then getting on and adding their own walking pace to the 9km/h, they will stand still and get in everyone elses way.
Re:escalators too (Score:5, Informative)
In Asimov's Science Fiction the walkways had different speeds. You could go 5 miles an hour, or you could step left and go 10 miles an hour, or step left, and go 15 miles an hour, or..... step left and go 100 miles an hour. So it's no big deal if someone just stand there. You can move to the faster track and pass them.
Heinlein has a similar concept in his "The Roads Must Roll" short story.
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This seems to imply an extremely wide walkway. If these things are supposed to go where sidewalks go, then they're not going to be more than a few feet wide or so.
Also, even with a really wide walkway, you wouldn't be able to pass anyone, as no one would be walking, they'd all be standing still on their particular track, and happily blocking everyone behind them, just as they do now on roads. So walking for exercise would be a thing of the past.
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No kidding. Allow a 5-foot wide walkway to account for lardasses with humongous posteriors (and you'd have to otherwise they spill into adjoining lanes and hit people), and your top speed 30-mph is then 30 feet in... that's as wide as a 3-lane highway, requiring 60 ft plus any servicing areas on the sides to account for both directions.
And yeah, I already get mad at people who get on a peoplemover and stand still in front of me. Imagine the road rage of everyone standing behind the aforementioned lardass, w
Re:escalators too (Score:5, Funny)
Lemme guess. I'm modded "flamebait" because some fatass didn't like being called a lardass, right?
It's reality. The people using the walkway are going to be these people [peopleofwalmart.com]. Five feet may not even be wide enough in some cases.
Re:escalators too (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you're being modded flamebait because you show absolutely no respect for the elderly or frail who don't dare walk lest they hurt themselves.
With two artificial hips and a fused spine, I look as healthy as the next man, but I tell you, the speed of which I have to get off the walkway is fast enough to pose a real problem. Yes, I stand still and gather strength for that (for me) monumental jump.
Never mind escalators, where I simply can't lift my feet high enough to climb the over-sized steps.
The next time you feel irritated by someone standing still, chill. And seek professional help if necessary, because becoming agitated over something as unimportant as that can't be healthy.
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So it seems a weird nitpick seeing as that's the part that's not rocket science.
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I've seen those walkways. Problem is, they are maybe 3.5-4 feet wide, which means all it takes is one lazy lardass to make the whole "passing" idea impossible.
Re:escalators too (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, all the moving walkways in the US airports have the same signs.
The problem is, about half of Americans are lazy self-important assholes who prefer to stand on the left or in the middle.
So it seems a weird nitpick seeing as that's the part that's not rocket science.
The problem is that social factors like this are very important, and frequently overlooked by engineers who come up with technological solutions to problems. If people behaved properly, in an orderly fashion, then many things would be possible which currently are not.
Moving sidewalks would be great in many places, but people like I've described will quickly make the whole thing unworkable. It only takes a few people to throw a monkey wrench into the works, so to speak. Strong enforcement could stop this behavior, but Western society has long since abandoned strong enforcement of anything because of lawsuits and cries of racism.
Re:escalators too (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is never asking people for something.
It is being in the position of the one asking if by rights it should be the other way around.
Example: If you want to smoke in a restaurant, the proper thing to do is to ask around if anyone minds. It is not ok to just start and see if someone asks you to stop.
It's a question of exercising power. Standing somewhere where people can be expected to stand and being asked to step aside is not a problem for either party. However, standing around in the middle of a traffic area and expecting to be asked politely to step aside each time is obnoxious. Here you are putting a burden on other people by standing where you should not be standing.
It's a bit of a subtle thing, but it is also part of society. Society works because we do not have to negotiate every single detail with everyone we meet, over and over again. We have customs to solve that kind of things. We have standards for greeting someone, we drive on the same side of the road, we walk at green and stop at red. All that is just arbitrary customs because society as a whole works more smoothly if people agree on how to do things.
So, if the custom is to stand on the right and walk on the left, and you stand on the right, you're behaving in an anti-social matter. Most of us are too nice to give you any trouble, but quite frankly, there are days where I wish ill on all the antisocial assholes who move around in society as if nobody except themselves existed.
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This whole idea sounds very, very expensive. Much more expensive than regular cars and roads (which are already expensive when you account for the total costs).
If you want an efficient system for moving people around, install the SkyTran [skytran.net] system. Since the cars aren't privately-owned, you don't have to deal with the problem of parking, so a trip of .5 - 1 mile would be perfectly feasible. Plus, you can also use them for longer trips, potentially across a continent if it's built out that far, and certainly
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H. G. Wells, When the Sleeper Wakes, 1899.
His concept had multiple speeds as well, but even that was predated by the working design at the Chicago World's Fair [wikipedia.org].
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The same will happen with these walkways, rather then getting on and adding their own walking pace to the 9km/h, they will stand still and get in everyone elses way.
Ever try to explain that to one of those people? They have no concept of relative motion.
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I don't think it's like that at all. Very, very, very few people walk up escalators, even if they have nothing in their hands. People are lazy. And if you try to pass them (even if the escalator is pretty wide), they get pissed and offended, just like they get pissed and offended if you pass them while driving.
Maybe it's different in other countries/societies, but here in the USA, most of the people don't want anyone to go any faster than they choose to go.
Re:escalators too (Score:5, Informative)
You probably live in suburbia where you only encounter escalators in the mall. In any big city subway you'll find that a significant number of people are in a hurry and walk up those escalators. Please stand on the right.
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I'm not one of the morons I see at the airport standing on the left side of the moving sidewalk.
If they are at an airport, perhaps they've come from a country like Australia where we drive on the left side of the road and subsequently stand on the left side of escalators and overtake on the right.
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My estimate 60% walk 40% ride. I note that the escalators are wide enough for 2 non-morbidly-obese people to pass without to
Re:escalators too (Score:5, Insightful)
In Japan they have a cool solution: the escalator ends up having two lines. The people on the left keep walking, and those on the right stand. I guess for that to become a custom you'd need escalators that are typically crowded, which most in the US are not.
Speaking of stairs and escalators, England really needs to catch up on this one. When I was riding the train there I kept having little old ladies ask me to carry their luggage for them up the stairs. I can't imagine what wheelchaired people do.
Re:escalators too (Score:5, Insightful)
The worst is when you're trying to get down to the subway, and it's in the station and if you could propel yourself forwards you could make it but the idiot in front of you apparently just doesn't give a shit and you miss the train.
Re:escalators too (Score:4, Insightful)
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When I was riding the train there I kept having little old ladies ask me to carry their luggage for them up the stairs. I can't imagine what wheelchaired people do.
They tell the little old ladies "No."
Re:escalators too (Score:4, Insightful)
They aren't their for convenience, they are clearly there to move people faster. I ride mass transit to work in the morning and home in the afternoon. Both stations have escalators, both have very narrow staircases. The escalators are there so that a large volume of people (10 commuter train cars worth) can get in or out of the station quickly, since we all arrive at the same time. People completely ignore this and just stand their like a lummox. It is frustrating to no end. I can't even take the stairs because they are one or two people wide at best, and there is always someone lumbering up them extremely slowly.
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I guess you've never been to New York City and environs.
Everywhere I go (NYC subways, PATH trains, stores, etc), people stand on the right on escalators and the left is reserved for people who walk up. Yes, there's an occasional clueless person, but a polite "excuse me" usually gets the message across.
Re:escalators too (Score:4, Insightful)
Climb on the left and stand on the right is true even in US escalators, at least busy ones in transit places such as train and subway stations. All I can guess is your only US experience is suburban mall escalators, where I agree everybody just stands still.
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Re:escalators too (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah but cattle prods work pretty much everywhere.
Re:escalators too (Score:5, Informative)
Technological solutions like this work well in Japan because people there have a society that values politeness and not being a flaming asshole. I've read they're so polite there that they even switch off their headlights at red lights, so they don't bother the people waiting on the opposite side. Over here, people happily leave their mis-aimed high beams on and blind people who are waiting for the light to change.
Funny enough, the last time I was in Japan I asked my host why she kept turning her headlights off at red lights - it turns out it wasn't to be polite. It was because she wanted to make the lamps in her headlights last longer.
Re:escalators too (Score:4, Insightful)
I use the same technique in reverse to make my headlight switch last longer.
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I'm really surprised you guys in the US don't do it this way...
I'm not surprised at all, as doing this requires two things I don't see a great deal of these days:
1) Common Courtesy, and
2) Awareness of "Others"
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Re:Obesity? (Score:5, Insightful)
Chewing gum is *the* single thing I truly despise in our free societies. It is ridiculously cheap, ubiquitous, popular - and more stable in the environment than granite. People chew that stuff all the time and spit it everywhere - all floors, streets, corners, sidewalks of all cities are riddled with that decades-old, positively eternal chewed chewing gum.
Just look at the streets on a busy intersection: thousands of flattened chewing gum remains, outlasting the tarmac they are embedded in by decades.
Sometimes when I look down on the city floor for some reason and notice the gum, I have a hard time regaining the faith in personal freedom, pushing back the urge to cry for Singaporean laws against that filth.
Honestly: what part of individual freedom demands that people can spit this stuff everywhere?
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Well there's our solution to all our road durability issues: just make them all out of chewing gum!
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I did a project a few years ago in San Francisco where we were trying to map where old bus stops had been - we knew the blocks but not the precise locations. Turned out to be surprisingly easy - look for the sudden increase in black smears of decades old gum on the sidewalk where there's currently no bus stop or other obvious reason for bunches of people to be hanging out. That's where the bus stop used to be, about 80% of the time. We're talking bus stops that got moved or removed in the early 70s, and
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For some reason all I could think of after reading the parent post was this:
Re:Obesity? (Score:5, Informative)
Saliva is only slightly more sterile than the kitchen floor of a frat house.
It may not all be harmful germs, but there sure is a lot of bacteria living there.
Human bite wounds, though relatively rare, have a higher rate of infections than cat or dog bites.
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In Asia, there isn't even a single piece of Graffiti in the darkest corner of the subways.
Can't speak for Asia generally, but observe these pics from my 2007 visit to Taiwan:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cathychang/sets/72157603572831113/ [flickr.com]
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>>>Fuel tax revenue does not come close to the funding level required to maintain roads.
False. I can't speak to the whole of the US, but in my state the fuel taxes generate *extra* revenue. The government then uses that excess to help prop-up the Maryland train transit system (which doesn't sell enough tickets to sustain itself). Put another way, in this state, the cars pay for their own unkeep. They pay-in enough gasoline/road tax to keep the highways built PLUS also keeping the rails maintain
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if you don't put those, they'll take their car. The amount of people who'll take a car to go what would have been a few minute walk is staggering.
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Wouldn't it be a better idea for people to walk those short distances, given how fat people are these days?
Say that to yourself when it's a hundred degrees out and your boobs, ass, and crotch are drenched in sweat. In shape or not, it'd be convenient. That said, it'll never be implemented because of lawsuits. Someone's precious snowflake will figure out a way to have the machine try and eat them, and they'll be shut down.
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No of course not, people apparently need to be allowed to "make their own decisions" according to a lot of libertarian-esque wharblgarbl on the internet these days -- even if those decisions are really, really poor.
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Yeah, if you can't walk at least 1km, you should probably have a wheelchair.
If it's just because you're lazy, then you should be walking anyway.
Personally I think bus stops are too close together. Put them at least 1/2 mile apart and ONLY stop at corners in between if the passenger is disabled.
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Walking 1/4 of a mile to the bus seems a little long? Really?
This is why public transportation in the US has such a hard time. Distances beyond the car in the driveway are simply to arduous for the common man, so either fares have to go up (to pay for all the extra buses since each one takes so long making so many stops) or people just take cars anyway because they can't handle walking a bit.
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Another idea, addressing the root of the problems with moving around cities, would be simply to not give the city centers away to cars.
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Re:Obesity? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't it be a better idea for people to walk those short distances, given how fat people are these days?
I don't know if this is sound logic. If I were to believe your reasoning, I would assume that we would see a lower average of obesity in a city like New York City where walking is a large part of transportation but it turns out to be similar [nyc.gov] to other places:
New York City's adult obesity rate was 20% in 2003, compared to 23% nationwide in 2004. The national average has nearly doubled from 12% in 1993.
I could just as presumptuously argue that people will only walk a certain amount -- no more, no less. And that if you put in these sidewalks it would only increase their range of desired travel that is acceptable to them (usually on a time based limit). So if I'm only will to walk 10 blocks and suddenly these sidewalks put me twenty blocks one way or the other, I've greatly increased my distances. And if you look at the history of the interstate and roads, it is evident than increasing a populace's means of transportation and freedom will increase your economy.
And what caused it to double since 1993? Not a revolution in transportation, I'll assure you that. Maybe a revolution in how we do business over the internet and a number of other factors more important than new transportation technologies.
I don't think the introduction and mass spread of automobiles in the early 1900s caused obesity. I personally think that what we eat and how we are raised to be sedentary are bigger problems than not walking everywhere. There's a number of contributing factors and deciding not to investigate new modes of public transportation for high concentrations of citizens is just not a sound decision.
It might be tempting to blame technology for our laziness but let's face it: we've been pacified and are perfectly content to sit around to get fat--moving sidewalk or no moving sidewalk.
Re:Obesity? (Score:5, Insightful)
Be careful what you do with statistics. My guess is that New York City's rate is only slightly lower because, in addition to having a lot of walkers, it has a lot of poor people. For example, Manhattan has a much lower obesity rate, and while I could state that this is because Manhattan is the most easily walkable of all the boroughs, it's much more likely that it's because Manhattan has the most rich people.
See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/nyregion/22fat.html [nytimes.com] for some good information
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The massive dependence on cars did contribute to the huge obesity problem the USA now faces. I visited Irving, TX, a few years ago (my first visit to the US), and was astounded by the complete lack of opportunities to walk, and the utter, complete dependence on cars. There were a couple of eateries/restaurants on the other side of the highway, from our hotel, but there was no way to legally cross the freeway (though the restaurants were just across, clearly tempting the hotel patrons to come over and eat).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Your post doesn't seem very well thought out.
At 30mph someone could travel the 2 miles between his bus-stop and office in an amount of time that makes it not double his commute time--and get additional exercise, whereas that may take a prohibitive amount of time if he has to walk.
My commute turns from 25 minutes by car to 55 by MAX light rail--a large part of the difference is walking the 1/2 mile between the max station and my destination 4 times a day.
When I ride my bike it's much faster, but I don't want
The Roads Must Roll? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I re-read it a couple of years ago (read it the first time in the mid-90's) and amazingly it seems to be 10x *more* relevant now than it was back then...
RAH future history (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't you need Douglas-Martin sunpower screens to power the thing
NO. (Score:5, Insightful)
NO. Jesus, walk a little bit people. If you've got to get somewhere faster, ride a bike, take a cab, take the train, drive your car.
Putting moving sidewalks everywhere is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Forget the exercise argument: imagine the fricking maintenance costs!
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I'm impatient so I always end up walking on the airport moving walkways anyway. This way I'd get the same exercise and still get to my destination twice as fast.
But yeah, maintenance would be insane. Have to admit cabs are a much more distributed, if inefficient, system...
On hackaday today! (Score:3, Interesting)
Segway (Score:2)
Isn't this the problem that Segways were supposed to fix?
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Yes, he found a solution that actual costs more then putting in actual moving sidewalks.
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Hong Kong has one (Score:5, Informative)
The Central Mid-Levels Escalator [wikipedia.org] moves you up and down about a half mile in a busy hilly part of the city. It has its critics but it seemed to be pretty well used when i was there.
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The Hong Kong example does charge a toll. It uses the same Octopus Card [wikipedia.org] system as the subways.
Conspiracy (Score:5, Funny)
Foundation's Friends.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't be the only one here to think of strip-running or Asimov.
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The answer is.. (Score:2)
No.
Now move along.
Large Cities (Score:3, Insightful)
For large cities an idea like this would be very neat. I live near Chicago, am not fat, and would love to be able to travel around the city on 30mph moving walkways. Ideally they would be structured like a highway with multiple lanes, one going 10mph, next one over is 20mph, fastest is 30mph.
Something like this would have maintenance costs sure, but it would also remove a huge load off public transit, and reduce taxi traffic majorly. You'd really only need a shuttle for people with large/heavy items, or elderly.
Think about how pleasant it would be if you could stroll down the street at 30mph directly toward your destination, rather than having decide which subway or bus will get you to your destination in a roundabout way (possibly even needing to change bus/trains mid-trip).
Of course this idea will never happen because of the cost and effort - but it is a lovely utopian idea.
These Already exist (Score:2)
http://sustainablecities.dk/en/city-projects/cases/hong-kong-re-discovering-escalators-as-public-transport [sustainablecities.dk]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalator [wikipedia.org]
I'm With Coco (Score:2)
Ziplines!!! (Score:2)
Airports (Score:4, Insightful)
Moving walkways are great in airports, where you have stuff you're carrying with you, and they are sheltered from weather.
Moving walkways outdoors, where sidewalks are supposed to be, would be a maintenance disaster; especially in a time where many states and municipalities are drowning in debt already.
Get off your ass and walk.
The trouble with moving sidewalks (Score:5, Interesting)
Nobody has ever come up with a good way to manage speed transitions. Belt joints don't work too well. The clever parallelogram arrangement that starts out wide and slow and transitions to narrow and fast was too complicated. Parallel sections at different speeds haven't been tried since the Paris Exposition in 1900. The few minutes of film of that system show someone falling. There are serious problems with various kinds of shoes, ranging from spike heels to Crocs. People keep falling down on the things.
The "Real" problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Consistent units? (Score:5, Funny)
30 mph walkways put today's tortoise-like speed ranges of .5-.83 m/s to shame.
Can't we at least get this in consistent units? For instance, "80,000 furlong per fortnight walkways put today's tortoise-like speed ranges of 3000-5000 furlongs per fortnight to shame".
Not a good idea (Score:5, Informative)
Health Nuts (Score:5, Funny)
Simple solution - for all you health nuts that are complaining about obesity...just run on the thing backwards.
There, fixed that for ya.
Learn how to ride a bike! (Score:3, Informative)
They can travel fast over long distances with the TGV (high-speed train) or airplanes, but not over short distances (under 1 km).
It's called a bike. Learn how to use it, FFS!
And to preemptively counter the usual complaints...
Sweat -- The best way to drastically reduce sweat-drenched clothes is not to wear a backpack or shoulder bag but use dedicated bike bags that are attached to the bike rack. Also, if you're breaking into a heavy sweat after 1 km (a casual 4 minute ride), you should ride your bike more often to get rid of that excessive weight.
Safety -- again, the article talks about an urban environment and distances under 1km. Unless you live in Gaza you should be able to find a safe and quick route.
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30 mph = ~13 m/s
I'll take the faster one, even if it is expressed in silly units.
Re:WAT (Score:5, Funny)
You seem lost. Here, let me help you:
http://digg.com/ [digg.com]
Re:WAT (Score:4, Funny)
Did you remember to stick your thumb up your ass? You can't get first post unless you have your thumb up your ass. Try it, you'll see.
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Even more apropos to this subject is Heinlein's The Roads Must Roll [wikipedia.org].
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Wow. The level of depressing buzzword reliance just hurt my brain.
Remember: every time humanity comes up with an idiot-proof contraption, nature designs a better idiot.
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Here you go. [magiccards.info] I think you'll find the cost quite manageable.
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Urza was a genius.
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0.83m/s (meters per second) would be about 9,612 feet per hour, and a mile is 5,280 feet.
So it's 9612 / 5280 = 1.82 miles per hour, or about 2 mph.
The speed of an average human walking.