Southwest Adds 'Mechanical Difficulties' To Act Of God List 223
War, earthquakes, and broken washers are all unavoidable events for which a carrier should not be liable if travel is delayed according to Southwest Airlines. Southwest quietly updated their act of God list a few weeks ago to include mechanical problems with the other horrors of an angry travel god. From the article: "Robert Mann, an airline industry analyst based in Port Washington, NY, called it 'surprising' that Southwest, which has a reputation for stellar customer service, would make a change that puts passengers at a legal disadvantage if an aircraft breakdown delays their travel. Keeping a fleet mechanically sound 'is certainly within the control of any airline,' Mann said. 'Putting mechanical issues in the same category as an act of God — I don't think that's what God intended.'"
Check their payroll (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Check their payroll (Score:5, Funny)
I don't know, have you seen the latest security measures?
"Thou shalt not bring liquids over 3 oz in thine carry-on luggage, for it is an abomination and potentially a bomb (anation).
Thou shalt remove thine shoes from thine feet, for thee art in a place of holy security, and also we want it to look like we learned something from that shoe bomber incident.
Thou shalt not bring hammers onto the plane, for in the face of a terrorist wielding a hammer all are paralyzed with fear and would not be able to stop him from hammering out the windows and depressurizing the cabin, causing extreme discomfort for all therein.
Thou shalt not question TSA rules, for they keep you safe so long as terrorists continue to be inconceivably stupid and incapable of lighting the bombs they hath smuggled aboard the airplane"
Pretty sure God works for TSA and doesn't take his job very seriously.
Re:Check their payroll (Score:5, Funny)
"First shalt thou take out the Holy ziploc bag, then shalt thou count to three ounces, no more, no less. Three shall be the number of ounces, and the number ounces shall be three. Four ounces shalt thou not bring, neither thou two ziploc bags, excepting that thou then proceed to check one. Five ounces is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then handest thou thy Holy ziploc bag to thy TSA screener, who being arbitrary in My sight, shall confiscate it anyway."
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A fully metricated person would indeed have no scruples [wiktionary.org] at all.
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Thank God that the US are prude or they would have learned something from the underwear bomber too.
Alternatively, it's too bad we're prudish and not in better shape physically.
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"Thou shalt remove thine shoes from thine feet, for thee art in a place of holy security, and also we want it to look like we learned something from that shoe bomber incident."
Thank God that the US are prude or they would have learned something from the underwear bomber too.
Umm... virtual strip search anyone?
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Re:Check their payroll (Score:4, Funny)
He should be since all thier mechanics pray to him before every take off.
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Indeed. After cutting nearly everyone else to keep fares low, they now just pray that nothing breaks.
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8 year olds, Dude. (Score:2, Funny)
There is no God (Score:2)
Putting "god" in a law ... makes you trust the justice system so much ...
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I don't think that's what God intended.
I don't remember seeing a book in the bible that covers aircraft maintenance or aviation component failure.
Was it in one of the commandments?
"Thou shalt not allow a faulty inertial reference sensor to delay departure."
Maybe it's part of the 8th: Thou shall not steal - the right of your passengers to sue you for failing to uphold your departure commitment.
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Re:Parts break (Score:4, Informative)
Hmm, you're also assuming they will have "spare" pilots in the hub cities ready-to-go at a moment's notice. And that the spare aircraft will always be ready-to-go at short notice, too. I'm sure there's significant costs associated with both of these. Even an idle airframe needs inspection before you can be sure it's safe to fly (and all the avionics, etc.). Then there's parking fees at airports, which are going to be pretty significant. So there's more costs involved than merely purchasing an extra couple of planes.
Fares may be in the hundreds of dollars, but flying a jet costs a lot more than running a bus.
Additionally, we're talking $50 million dollars plus to buy a 737, which is apparently most or all of Southwest's fleet (unusual for an airline - most would also have to grapple with the logistics of having multiple types of spare plane). And even assuming every ticket costs $500 and ALL of that goes to the airline as profit, you need to make 729 flights before you've paid off the initial investment. Assuming that there's no maintenance and staff and fuel costs, and that you bought the cheapest version of the plane. Clearly, the actual profit is nowhere near 100%.
Assuming a 10% profit margin on that $500 ticket (which seems awfully expensive and way more than your average one-way ticket is going to cost) - that's 1,000,000 tickets to pay for that $50 million plane, which works out to 7,299 fully-booked flights. At 7 flights per day, an aircraft will take 1,042 days to pay for itself. Assuming it's actually carrying full-fare paying passengers, and not sitting in a hangar somewhere.
So, I agree with your assessment that this would have to be mandated by the government. But I don't think most people would be willing to pay more for a ticket just for reducing the chance of a delayed/canceled flight. Because if they were, airlines would already be offering this to give themselves a competitive advantage.
Btw, your $5 extra per ticket, assuming it goes entirely to paying for the $50 million spare plane, would require nearly 73,000 fully-booked flights in order to pay off a single spare plane. If a plane makes 7 flights per day, they can recoup the costs for a single "spare" plane in a mere 28 plane-years!
I think they're right (Score:2)
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Don't say that near any 6-Sigma guys :-)
Re:I think they're right (Score:4, Funny)
You know those belts don't indicate actual martial arts skill, right?
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Wars too, it would seem...
Re:I think they're right (Score:5, Funny)
>> Statistics should be considered an "Act of God".
So should arriving on time with all you luggage intact.
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Absolutely. If a part fails within its operating parameters, which is always a possibility, that's a circumstance outside of human control.
Of course, operating a part outside of its operating parameters, or defining unrealistic operating parameters, would be negligence.
Re:I think they're right (Score:4, Insightful)
A part failing is outside of human control. Whether or not you have spare parts on hand, however, is well within human control. Similarly, whether or not you have a spare plane to use while the first one is being repaired is also well within human control. The question of whether force majeure [wikipedia.org] or equivalent contract clauses should apply is not one of whether a failure could have been prevented, but rather whether the failed flight could reasonably have been prevented by having plans in place to handle equipment failures gracefully.
Failures are a part of doing business. The term "acts of God" is intended to protect only against failures that either cannot reasonably be foreseen (overthrow of a government, for example) or are so catastrophic that they cannot be dealt with when they do occur (a hurricane, for example). It is not intended to allow a company to not take responsibility for normal day-to-day failures. A competent, responsible company is expected to have contingency plans in place to deal with a reasonable number of normal day-to-day failures. If a company does not, it is inept and should be allowed to go bankrupt as quickly as possible so that more competent companies can take its place.
Remember that any delay caused by aircraft equipment failure could have been prevented with a single spare plane in the right location.
Some bean counter ... (Score:4, Interesting)
... probably figured that this might overcome their bags fly free policy while still remaining competitive. Marketing won't like it if this story gets any bigger, kudos to the Arizona Daily Star for breaking it.
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Gary Kelly is a Bean Counter. He was CFO prior to being named to his current position and it's just a way that they don't have to book you on another airline or pay for overnight accommodations if they have a mechanical problem. From a marketing perspective this is an incentive to buy "Travel Insurance." Bah...
http://www.southwest.com/swamedia/bios/gary_kelly.html [southwest.com]
Mechanical failure (Score:4, Insightful)
So if my car breaks and crashes into a state trooper, killing him, I can claim that my shoddy repairs were an act of god? AWESOME! *goes for a drive*
Re:Mechanical failure (Score:5, Funny)
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And thus the obligatory "Slashdot automobile analogy" requirement is fulfilled.
Yeah. I feel dirty too.
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Tear jerking scenario aside (you might as well have tried the "Think of the children" route and made it a little girl holding a puppy with a bow in it's hair), no, if you are in an accident caused by a verifiable mechanical breakage than you are not going to be considered at fault.
Being legally at fault in a criminal matter though is a very different matter than claiming no fault in a Terms of Service document.
If 'mechanical difficulties' has been added... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:If 'mechanical difficulties' has been added... (Score:4, Funny)
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your right, I'd kick 'em.
Another suggestion.... (Score:2)
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Just add "Management Incompetence" to the list or add it at least as natural constant.
I don't think there is an airline that doesn't have that one on their list...
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Just add "Management Incompetence" to the list or add it at least as natural constant.
I don't think there is an airline that doesn't have that one on their list...
Dunno what you're talking about *** Humming United Breaks Guitars ****
It only makes sense (Score:2)
... once you start babbling about the effect of capricious supernatural sky fairies on mass transportation. What's the difference between a transistor burning out in a VOR receiver, versus a sudden hailstorm that shuts down the whole airport? Only a matter of scale.
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Lets see, one is a mechanical problem, the other is weather. I'd say a big difference, and not just in scale.
Re:It only makes sense (Score:4, Funny)
You don't think an angry sky wizard could burn out a transistor?
Maybe the pilot and copilot are gay lovers, or maybe they had shrimp for lunch, or failed to say the correct prayers at the correct times, it seems from the relevant documentation anything pisses off those types.
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Since I don't know of any sky wizards (or sky fairies) I cannot answer your question.
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It's a freaking figure of speech. Not one (Well, no one who matters) really thinks that divine beings actually take an interest in whether your plane takes off on time. The point is that "act of God" typically refer to matters outside the control of the airline, thus allowing them to make an valid argument that they can't be expected to pay for the result. Maintenance is well within the control of the airline and should not be considered under "acts of God" protection.
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Still not seeing the connection between it and the transistor.
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I agree, do they have an "acts of leprechauns" or "acts of gremlins" section too?
Even weather delays are often partly the airlines fault for not having enough spare capacity. I have been delayed more than once due to a weather issue at another airport thus delaying the plane I was supposed to board.
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I saw that episode as well. I was surprised that Kirk didn't get any action from the stewardess and Spock wasn't helpful at all.
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. Until this is better defined I cannot see it holding any legal power in any court.
Re:It only makes sense (Score:5, Informative)
None actually.
CFR 14, Part 25, Rule 25.1309.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/EF544B3CFE11DB2B85256673004D3EC4?OpenDocument [faa.gov]
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...effect of capricious supernatural sky fairies...
I know diety disdain is popular here on Slashdot, but "Act of God" [wikipedia.org] is a legal term of art. You can calm down now.
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Exceptions for acts of god makes sense. After all, should an airline be held responsible for the unknowable, infallible actions of our omnipotent creator?
Of course, they want notarized proof if your sick and need to change planes. I want Southwest to get a note from God that He authorized the act. Also, a xeroxed copy of His driver's license or passport proving His identity. And His signature, which must match the signature card from a local bank.
Also, I want to know why He keeps making the Yankees win.
Sorry, but SWA can PROVE this is valid. (Score:5, Funny)
If god chooses not to listen, should SWA be held liable?
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Do you suppose an entire plane full of passengers praying for mercy counters what I say when I get on a plane: "hey god, you've been waiting for a long time, now's your chance - take your best shot?"
Not that I've ever flown Southwest.
Yay, free auto repair (Score:2, Funny)
By this logic my insurance company should be liable for when my car breaks down. Woohoo!
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You won't say that when you see the new premiums.
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God Does Not Roll Dice... (Score:5, Funny)
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"God has individual control over each nut?"
Which kind of nut are we talking about, here? The carbon-based ones with AI or the inorganic metal ones that just hold things together?
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Jesus! God has individual control over each nut?
He must. They all claim to either know him or be him
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He might even bust a nut now and again.
God? (Score:2)
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Who do you think created the gremlins?
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This story is false (Score:5, Informative)
"Mechanical difficulties" refers those occurring at an airport or in the air traffic control system: For example, if a control tower has an outage which forces the closure of an airport; or if the fuel delivery system at an airport breaks down.
See: Truthsquadding the Southwest Airlines “Act of God” controversy: “Ultimately this is a reporting error run amok” [elliott.org]
Re:This story is false (Score:5, Insightful)
Those still seem like maintenance issues that the airline is responsible for as they rent those services to provide service to their customers. They in that case sure as hell should be refunding tickets and compensating travelers stuck in those closed airports. The airline should then seek relief from the airport under whatever contracts they have.
Re:This story is false (Score:4, Insightful)
> Those still seem like maintenance issues that the airline is responsible for
> as they rent those services to provide service to their customers.
The air traffic control system is not a service they rent. It's a Federal government monopoly. They use it or they don't fly and they have no recourse when in breaks down.
> The airline should then seek relief from the airport under whatever
> contracts they have.
The airports are generally local government monopolies. It's unlikely that the airline has any recourse their either.
Re:This story is false (Score:5, Insightful)
Those aren't acts of god.
Those are acts for which the people who are liable are liable.
They may not be Southwest's fault, but they're certainly the responsibility of someone who should pay for the delays.
The air travel system didn't sell me a lottery ticket, it sold me a takeoff and landing time at two identified airports. If any of those things is wrong, it's on their heads.
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The air travel system didn't sell me a lottery ticket...
Then why is it that I feel like I've hit the lottery on the rare occasion when I actually make a connecting flight?
Re:This story is false (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This story is false (Score:5, Insightful)
I pay the airline, and the airline pays the airport, the fuel service, etc. The airline owes me if they don't deliver me to my destination on time; if it is somebody else's fault, the airline can go after their suppliers, vendors, etc. to recoup their costs (presumably they have that type of thing in their contracts).
Re:This story is false (Score:4)
Yeah. If my rent is late, my landlord has an issue with me. It doesn't matter if I got paid, or if my paycheck bounced, or if it has been a slow quarter for sales of the new FooBar 2000. The landlord doesn't have to sue my boss, or the HR department, or the customers who aren't buying our product, or my company's landlord who took all their money for rent. My landlord only has a problem with me. I may then have to sue the company where I work in order to get compensation for the fact that my paycheck bounced and it resulted in my landlord suing me.
If the airport promised the airline a working tower, then the airline can sue them. If the airline promised me a flight, I can sue them. I really don't think we should have all these special aristocracy-style exceptions in the law for specific types of corporations. The airline could operate their own fueling hardware and invest in a backup tower if they didn't trust the existing infrastructure. The decision not to do that was by the management, and they sure as hell aren't deities. Regardless of what the law says.
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That's right. However, those events in the contract were under a bigger umbrella of Force majeure [wikipedia.org] and not under Act of God [wikipedia.org]. GP is right - the contract was just poorly worded in a way that this was not clear.
Disclaimer: IANAL
Re:You buy a ticket from a carrier, not a system (Score:4, Insightful)
I should go after southwest if they do not refund the tickets or provide accommodations over this, they can seek relief from the airport. They sold me the ticket, not the airport.
This wasn't "lazy reporting" (Score:4, Insightful)
This wasn't "lazy reporting" or a "reporting error", the plain wording of the contract was quite clear. If they meant "mechanical difficulties with things we don't own or operate", then they should have said so.
SirWired
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"Mechanical difficulties" refers those occurring at an airport or in the air traffic control system: For example, if a control tower has an outage which forces the closure of an airport; or if the fuel delivery system at an airport breaks down.
So, if the fleet of fuel trucks Southwest owns and keeps at an airport all break down, Southwest thinks they aren't liable?
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It's like Battlesarred Galactica all the machines are GODS FAULT.
I hope other companies don't follow suite (Score:2)
You think that's bad... (Score:2)
...you should see their pilot training. Instead of learning correct operating procedure for an airplane and controlled airspace, their pilots are taught to shut their eyes and repeat "oh god! oh god! oh god!". Apparently this has allowed them to save a lot of money by combining training for their pilots and hosties.
RTFA much? (Score:5, Informative)
Despite the FA headline, 'mechanical difficulties' is in fact NOT in an acts of God list. Rather, they added it to their list of 'Force Majeure' events, along with 'acts of God.' From their Contract of Carriage [southwest.com]:
Force Majeure Event means any event outside of Carrier’s control, including, without limitation, acts of God, meteorological events, such as storms, rain, wind, fire, fog, flooding, earthquakes, haze, volcanic eruption or any other event, including, without limitation, government action, disturbances or potentially volatile international conditions, civil commotions, riots, embargoes, wars, or hostilities, whether actual, threatened, or reported, strikes, work stoppage, slowdown, lockout or any other labor related dispute involving or affecting Carrier’s service, mechanical difficulties, Air Traffic Control, the inability to obtain fuel, labor or landing facilities for the flight in question or any fact not reasonably foreseen, anticipated or predicted by Carrier.
Likewise, the body of the FA correctly states that both mechanical difficulties and acts of God are in the same list. Of course, that doesn't make for such an eye-grabbing headline...
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> Force Majeure means 'superior force', so perhaps not an act of your God but
> of some other deity? Presumably that would be one of the Greek Gods, say
> Hermes, God of Travel or Lelantos, God of Air?
No, the FAA and the local government's airport authority. They might as well be gods for all that the airline can do about them.
More like "Act of Accounting." (Score:2)
This seems like a ploy to be able to skimp on maintenance people and stores of replacement parts. After all, if mechanical difficulties is on their "Act of God" list, they don't need to rush to repair the plane, so they can just keep a few of the most common parts and some mechanics at a few central locations, and then fly them out to where they're needed. Ran out of parts and available mechanics? Too bad. God shouldn't have broken the plane.
it's called (Score:5, Funny)
I have to say... (Score:4, Informative)
I've never been a fan of deus ex machina.
The God of Airlines... (Score:2)
Act of God it could fly (Score:2)
Well I suppose it would be an Act of God that the plane actually flown with mechanical problems and safely arrives for the repair before it takes on another load of passengers.
What is this "act of god" you speak of? (Score:2, Troll)
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Legal term for random event (Score:3, Insightful)
"Acts of God" is a legal term encompassing chance events, sudden natural disasters, and other unforeseeable and uncontrollable happenings. Forest fires, lightning, earthquakes, meteor strikes, volcanic eruptions, sudden sinkholes, etc.
The lawyers and judges understand what it means. It's a standard part of contracts and has nothing to do with any deity or religious belief whatsoever.
Nothing to see here, move along. (Score:4, Informative)
In our latest update, we offered our definition, which states that “Force Majeure Event means any event outside of Carrier’s control” and so the “mechanical difficulties” we are referring to as Force Majeure events would be those outside of our control, such as airport mechanical difficulties (e.g., the airport de-icing system breaks) or Air Traffic Control issues (e.g., airport or regional tower goes down).
We are not referring to our own aircraft mechanical difficulties, which would clearly be under our control. Our policies and practices confirm this interpretation.
None of our procedures have changed — we still accommodate customers exactly the same as we did previously in the event of our own aircraft mechanical issues occur.
Is this the same Southwest regularly making news? (Score:2)
Southwest, which has a reputation for stellar customer service
Do they? Last I checked, they hate people and they do not enjoy making money. First, there was the Kevin Smith incident, and more recently, there was an incident where a skinny woman was kicked off a plane so a fat person could have two seats. [sacbee.com] In what world is this "stellar" customer service?
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Do they? Last time I flew Southwest (July 2009) they:
- Got me where I was going on time,
- Offered me two (2) packages of peanuts as a snack, and two packages of cookies as well.
- Had room for my bags in both directions.
The last time I flew Delta (July 2010) they:
- Would not let me change seats online.
- Would not tell me my seat assignment on the commuter segments until after boarding, so that 'passengers with special needs could be accomodated'. They seated three standby passengers before me on one flight
Excuse me... (Score:2)
What does God need with a jetliner?
What's an Act of God? (Score:2)
A washer mysteriously disappearing because God wills a plane full of evil people to crash is an Act of God.
A washer breaking and plane crashing because Southwest elected to buy cheaper and, hence, poorer quality washers is not an Act of God.
God is their co-pilot (Score:2)
And mechanic apparently.
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purchasing engine parts that don't follow quality control guidelines is also an act of God.
According to "intelligent design" those were put there by the devil to fool us.
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And if God would get busy smiting the evil bastards that have taken over law and commerce, these things wouldn't be such a big problem.