EVs In the Spotlight At West Coast Green Conference 206
DeviceGuru writes "Electric vehicles were prominent among the 'hot products' showcased at West Coast Green in San Francisco this week. The event's product expo featured an assortment of preproduction units, prototypes, and concept models based on two-, three-, and four-wheel designs, along with several of the vehicles' creators. Specifically, the EVs and plug-in hybrids that participated in the show included Wheego's Whip, Saba's Carbon Zero Roadster, Green Lite's three-wheeled plug-in hybrid, Brammo's all-electric Enertia motorcycle, and Mitsubishi's i-MiEV EV, which PG&E is evaluating for some unstated purpose. Notably absent were Nissan's LEAF, Chevy's Volt, Toyota's Prius Plug-in, and Tesla's sexy Roadster, though in fairness the conference wasn't an actual auto show. So how many Slashdot readers plan to switch over to a plug-in EV in the next few years?"
2 sets of wheels (Score:2)
Yeah, in the next few years I hope to get solar panels and an EV for local trips. Pretty rare for me to go even 30 miles in a day.
But I'll keep a gas burner for the road trips.
Maybe later. (Score:2)
Put me in an environment where I can't walk or bike, and give me enough money to afford to buy and own a car, and we'll talk.
Till then, I'm on a beautiful campus with more sidewalks than roads, and I can get anywhere I care about in less than 10 minutes. I don't even want a bike -- that'd cut it from 10 minutes to 2, which just isn't enough to care.
Outside this range, the closest thing I care about is 2-3 hours away (outside the range of many electrics), and beyond that, long enough that I'd rather fly.
Duo? (Score:2)
No Myers Motors Duo [myersmotors.com]?,
Hate to point it out (Score:2)
Real cars only (Score:2)
1 - it needs to be able to do 70mph like a normal ca or else it's a glorified golf cart.
2 - it needs 200+ mile range or else it's a joke.
3 - it needs to be for sale and not a 1-off by some tiny firm in Santa Rosa, CA.
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With the exception of your 200+ range, the Nissan LEAF satisfies the rest of your requirements (it's only got a 100 mile range). It's a perfect "around-town" car for me, which is why I've got one on order. It should be delivered by December. I can't wait.
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It's gotta be 200 miles -- which is about the distance you can go on a tank of gas in most cars -- or you can forget about road trips.
Geez, just tow a small trailer with a generator. Sure, it's using gas, but not much.
In fact if the car chassis will take the weight, it doesn't even need to be a trailer, just mount the thing directly on a towbar fitting like some bike racks. Shouldn't be that heavy.
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The reason I said 200 miles and highway speeds and for sale is because the last one that could do that was about a decade ago - the Toyota EV RAV4. What shocks me is that in lieu of a real development process, these companies are basically skirting around all of the laws and regulations by classifying their vehicles as motorcycles or city only or other nonsense.
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While they have had numerous issues, the Tesla Roadster actually does get about 200 miles of range, can do 70, and has been for sale... That last part is the bigger issue as they have failed to actually meet demand.
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1 - This hasn't been a problem in years. You can get electric bicycles up to 70 now. Really the question is torque, where more energy efficient cars and driving inherently just don't have much acceleration oomph.
2 - This is the sticking point. 200 miles requires a lot of expensive batteries. Electric-Gas plug-in hybrids seem like a good compromise... 40 miles on electric for normal commutes, full range on gas for family trips.
3 - Electric vehicles are launching immediately from Toyota, Chevy, and Nissan
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AFAIK, Tesla was never based on Santa Rosa. They're a Delaware corporation and have had offices on the SF Peninsula throughout most of their history. There actually is a Tesla Electric in Santa Rosa, but it's a contractor (ie, wires houses and office buildings). I guess the long-standing position of the contractor, the fact that they don't make vehicles, and (almost certaily) a different logo are enough to prevent trademark issues.
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Except that you know in places where it actually gets cold. EV's are useless, you won't get even 20mi out of a battery in the middle of a normal canadian winter.
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Except that you know in places where it actually gets cold. EV's are useless, you won't get even 20mi out of a battery in the middle of a normal canadian winter.
That depends on the system. Tesla uses a "cooling" system which maintains minimum temperatures as well, with waste heat, just as an internal combustion engine-powered vehicle does.
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And batteries lose their charge in the cold weather.
No they don't, they simply cannot deliver their power when cold. The chemical reactions that occur in them when you draw power from them happen too slowly. Drawing power from them happens inefficiently at this time. However, when you begin to run the system it heats up, the batteries are heated in short order, and then you're going down the road just fine.
Ask any Canadian, he'll tell you dozens of stories about regular cars and trucks not starting in the middle of winter.
I'd rather ask a Canadian who knows how the car battery works. Oh wait, I got an "A" in a six-unit automotive electronics course... I think I'll just ask
Why does it need that range? (Score:2)
I understand that some people have the need for long range, but do most? I don't think so. Most people I know do not travel long distances in their cars. They drive around the city. Means you need enough capacity to be able to do that for a couple of days. For most people, that means 100 miles would be fine. 50 miles is a lot of driving for one day, and thus even if you forget to plug your car in one night you should be fine the next day.
I just do not see range as a major issue for most. Hell, I personally
Preordered a Leaf (Score:5, Interesting)
Roll my own.... (Score:2)
The other reason for the Vanagon, in Back to the Future everyone wants the DeLorean. Me, I want the terrorist van.
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In terms of convertible vehicles, I li
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You actually have the right idea with the big car. Old toyota pickups full of lead acids are the mainstay of DIY EV converters (I'm not one, just an observer). Why? because they have a high MPG*payload product, and thus can handle the weight.
A vanagon or microbus is another ideal conversion target because it has a lot of open space down low, underneath the vehicle and seats, and because the engine layout lends itself to replacement.
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Have you considered the VW Polo? [youtube.com]
Sheer fantasy, do the maths on battery weight (Score:2)
Now let's take the assumption that you need a minimum range of 60 miles. Allowing for acceleration loads, you are going to need a usable 25kwH capacity.
The nominal capacity of a standard 110AH lead acid cell is 1.3kw, but if you try it, you will get it once only. In reality, at motor loads you will get about 80% efficiency, but if you discharge more than 40% of theore
electricity too expensive here (Score:2)
I was considering a Leaf, but I live in the third most expensive state in the US for electricity. The Leaf battery pack is supposed to be rated at 24 kwh. So a full charge will cost me at least $4.00 (assuming 100% charging efficiency) and at 75-80 mph highway speed will only get me about 60 miles of range. That's about 6.7 cents per mile. Compare that to a 2000-2006 Honda Insight, which should get at least 50 mpg even at 75-80 mph. 50 mpg at $2.50 per gallon is only about 5 cents per mile. Another car I'm
Time of Day Metering? (Score:2)
1. What about time of day metering in your location? (I.E., charge at night?)
2. What is your state? Is it coal powered?
Good luck getting some insight in to the Insight.
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The Leaf battery pack is supposed to be rated at 24 kwh. So a full charge will cost me at least $4.00 (assuming 100% charging efficiency) and at 75-80 mph highway speed will only get me about 60 miles of range. That's about 6.7 cents per mile.
Ok, so ignoring that you're breaking traffic laws with your speed, let's go crazy and call it 7 cents per mile.
Compare that to a 2000-2006 Honda Insight, which should get at least 50 mpg even at 75-80 mph. 50 mpg at $2.50 per gallon is only about 5 cents per mile.
$2.50 per gallon? Where are you buying your gas? It's $3.19 per gallon, where I live. Gasoline is expected to be $5.00 per gallon in the next two years. That'll double your nice little figure, there.
Assuming it only goes up to $4.00 per gallon, that still throws your gasoline-powered Honda up to 8 cents per mile - and that's before you factor in oil changes (electrics don't need them), wear-and tea
He probalby lives in Arizona (Score:2)
Gas is around $2.50/gallon in most parts of the state. Also, 75 is not breaking traffic law, it is Interstate speed here. Going 80 is generally tolerated, like most places 5 over isn't something you get nailed for.
As for your gas cost, sorry but I'm not buying it. Not because it isn't possible but because you have no good information indicating that. The kinds of rampant speculation I see around gas prices, the stock market, the US dollar and so on are phenomenal, and have only increased what with the reces
Can I Get it In a Bigger SUV? (Score:2)
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First things first (Score:2)
Where's my flying car?
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Where's my flying car?
Erm, they're not ready for prime time yet. However, we have developed a flying Segway, if that's of interest....
Hybrids are close, EVs are a no-go. (Score:2, Insightful)
When electric vehicles match the performance, convenience, cost and actually achieve eco-friendly PARITY with modern internal combustion vehicles, then I will consider one.
And not before.
To those for whom driving is simply a way to get from one place to another, and have fairly short distances to cover- yes, they may be a viable option even if they DO actually cause more environmental damage than a real car at this point. (When the full impact of production including fuel production is considered, as well a
Another Leaf Pre-Order (Score:2)
(This should have been a slashpoll...)
Another vote for the Leaf, another pre-order...Happily, I live in one of the trial markets.
call me when... (Score:2)
Several folks have posted that they'll be interested in an EV when it can do a certain range (call when it can go all week, call me when I can get 500mi etc) Others have responded that by and large, you don't really drive all that far on a day to day basis. Here's my problem: I live in an apartment building in a large town/small city, so my parking is a ground level lot with the bare minimum of light standards that the municipal building code allows. My assigned spot doesn't even have a curb stone, let alon
charging solution (Score:2)
your need to charge actually has a possible solution. I did not see anyone mention that with the right electric supply you can do a 80% charge in 20-30 minutes. Oregon's local greenie governor is planning on putting stations like this along the main interstate, hmm, every 100 miles?. He has some federal money to do it. Now he plans to locate these sites where is there is some existing retail and other amenities. Hey, few greenies would call me green, but I think this particular idea is a reasonable
Electric car = urban parochialism (Score:2)
Unless you've lived in rural New Mexico, Nevada, Utah or Arizona, you don't know how useless a 100 mile range maximum can be. 100 miles out of almost anywhere in southern New Mexico leaves you stranded in the desert if you're not on a major highway. Recharging opportunities are bit sparse too.
I for one am waiting patiently... (Score:2)
I am already waiting. I have been watching the Aptera with extreme interest since I first read about it right here on Slash. It seems perfect for my needs as a daily commuting vehicle as I have about a 20 mile commute to work. Double that and add some little running around during the day and we can say that on a busy day I might go 70 miles total. That's well within the range of every EV out there. Big range means nothing to me because it's really the exception that I would go more than this in a day. Being
Next car I buy (Score:4, Insightful)
will be electric, or plug-in hybrid.
Yes, I know it's more expensive, but I can afford it, and the electric car industry needs help to get established.
Gas cars have had 100 years of development by some of the brightest people around.
It's not surprising that they are refined to such a high degree.
Yes, I know that the first generation electrics will not be as good as the gas versions.
but... WE NEED TO STOP BURNING OIL!
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Re:Nope (Score:4, Interesting)
How about Better Place [betterplace.com]? The creator had a prominent TED speech [ted.com]. Fills up faster than a regular car, and cheaper to own. The only issue is that they plan on charging by the mile, but insist it's still cheaper than your gas guzzler.
Nope, not Better Place (Score:3, Informative)
How about Better Place [betterplace.com]?
I heard Shai Agassi speak at the Commonwealth Club in SF, and met some of his people afterward when everyone went over to 111 Minna (a club). They talk big, but they have very little actually deployed. They talk about growing by a factor of 10 each year, and deployment all over the world. All they have are three (3) taxicabs in Tokyo, and one automated battery change station for them. Their next deployment will be seven (7) cars at the Sheraton Waikiki Resort,
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1) fast charging technology won't work, so battery changing will be necessary
This one p
Re:Nope, not Better Place (Score:5, Interesting)
This one probably won't be true. Most wires just can't give out enough power. Recharging a car at speeds at which a gas car is charged takes around 5 megawatts. That means that 10 of my local costco gas stations = 1 powerplant.
It's not quite that bad. 1 megawatt is more like it. The Tesla Roadster battery has a capacity of 53kWh. Their "fast charge" is 3 hours, and requires 220V 80A, or 17.6 KW. To charge 60x faster, in 3 minutes, would require about 1 MW. (4KV at 250A, perhaps?)
It's been suggested that stations on weaker parts of the power grid might have local batteries, to level out their load. They could still charge a car in 3 minutes, but maybe only 5-10 cars per hour. Then they only need 100KW coming in.
Batteries that can take charge rates like that don't exist yet. There are claims from the "nanotechnology" crowd that they will be available Real Soon Now. We'll see.
15 minute charge, though, is feasible now. That can be addressed with marketing; the combo gas station/Burger King/Starbucks/grocery store might work. (Or not.) [yelp.com]
Consider a service plaza on a major Interstate highway in an isolated area. A good example would be I-15 from LA to Vegas. Assume a range of 200 miles, like a Tesla roadster. Every 20 miles, there's a service plaza. Assume 10% of cars come in for a recharge at each service plaza. An expressway lane has a capacity of 2000 cars per hour, so an 8-lane freeway has 16,000 cars per hour at max. If 10% of those need a Tesla-sized recharge, that's about 50KWh per car, or 1600*50 KWH/hr, or 8 megawatts per service plaza per direction, or 16MW per service plaza, or 80MW for 100 miles of road. That's big, but not unreachable.
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It's not quite that bad. 1 megawatt is more like it.
Yeah, that's true. Gas stations put out around 10 gallons/minute, and in a 20 MPG car that translates to 200 miles/minute. So it really is more like 3 megawatts for the exact same refuel rate. That said, it is not as bad as I thought. It still is pretty bad, and likely infeasible for the near future.
It's been suggested that stations on weaker parts of the power grid might have local batteries, to level out their load.
That's theoretically economically impossible, unless the cost of electricity were to more than double. See above.
Batteries that can take charge rates like that don't exist yet. There are claims from the "nanotechnology" crowd that they will be available Real Soon Now. We'll see. 15 minute charge, though, is feasible now. That can be addressed with marketing; the combo gas station/Burger King/Starbucks/grocery store might work.
Cheap chinese NiMH can do fast charging in 15 minutes. I think I read about cheap NiCd that
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So use big honking capacitors that store juice underground, much in the same way we store fuel. I hope a better job is done of that so that the lithium likely to be used in the caps doesn't damage water tables.
How many farads is that? A bunch. Do you deliver them with a truck? No. Probably something more like a substation grid. But it might be nice to see an 18-wheeler that's just a huge tank of electrons, ready to go to work.
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15 minute charge, though, is feasible now. That can be addressed with marketing; the combo gas station/Burger King/Starbucks/grocery store might work. (Or not.)
All the people who gave that place a bad review were crying about stupid shit. Oh, it's destroying the earth, but I shop there anyway. They're everything that's bad about typical Californians and the reason that I had to deal with a zillion comments about stupid hippies when I lived in Texas.
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Batteries that can take charge rates like that don't exist yet. There are claims from the "nanotechnology" crowd that they will be available Real Soon Now. We'll see.
Erm, A123 nanophosphate lithium batteries are available in some Black&Decker and DeWalt cordless tools. They're a real commercial product, it's just that the factory output is booked years in advance.
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They're a real commercial product, it's just that the factory output is booked years in advance.
What we need then is for the evil Chinese to copy or buy the technology, and start making zillions of them in Shenzen or wherever they make those sort of stuff.
There are already millions of electric bikes in use in China: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904334,00.html [time.com]
They're also planning to build more than 100 nuclear reactors. If they succeed that might help clear up the smog in their cities.
Say what you like about their Gov, but they appear to have a long term plan that might actually work
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and no one will until those rich people subsidize production for long enough for the makers to figure out how to get the mass production costs down and the endurance up. think strategic. think long term. go rich people go!
Re:Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas
I've heard that several times and it doesn't make any sense to me. If I am driving around town, I only need to fill up once every week, at most. If I can charge my car at home, I really don't need it to last an entire week. A little margin is required, in case I forget to plug it in one night, or decide to run extra errands, and accounting for diminished battery capacity over the life of the vehicle. Three days of driving is fine, which for most people is 90-150 miles. The Nissan Leaf can do that now. Some people have longer commutes, so that could be increased a bit, but I don't think the average commuter needs the 300-400 miles that a normal car can get on a tank if you can fill up at home.
On the other hand, if I am going out of town, there are very few places I can go on a single tank of gas. Even if there were charging stations available everywhere, the amount of time it takes to charge is unpractical for long drives. I would want to to hold a full day's drive, at least 1000 miles, and confidence that there would be a somewhere to charge where I slept, before I considered using a pure electric for out of town trips.
I don't see much added value in increasing the range over ~200 miles, unless you are surpassing ~1000.
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A small baggage trailer with a Honda Generator should do the trick for long drives.
Perhaps we could rent them by the day, good for 1000 miles or so.
Re:Nope (Score:4, Interesting)
Or you could just buy a better gas car for a hell of a lot less and fill up in 5 minutes at a gas station.
Define "better", please, because I'm not seeing any definition of "better" that fits that description. Electric vehicles have as much power as gasoline vehicles, they're much quieter, they're just as comfortable... Tell me how a loud, smelly thing is better than a quiet, clean one. Please.
Re:Nope (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Nope (Score:4, Interesting)
The average consumer is concerned about getting stranded because their vehicle runs out of fuel.
Another possible option: call a tow truck, have the tow-truck use its engine to recharge your battery to the point where you can make it to the nearest recharge station. Not really all that different from what a lot of people would do when their gas-powered car runs out of gas.
Re:Nope (Score:4, Interesting)
I thought you could have a standard charging interface a bit like USB. You hook up your car and it uses a data interface to talk to the electricity provider. They exchange account details and if that works then you get charging current. Devices like this could be installed on a lot of electricity poles. Pretty much anywhere you can safely stop you could charge from the grid.
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The average consumer is concerned about getting stranded because their vehicle runs out of fuel.
Another possible option: call a tow truck, have the tow-truck use its engine to recharge your battery to the point where you can make it to the nearest recharge station. Not really all that different from what a lot of people would do when their gas-powered car runs out of gas.
Alternatively, plug in a small (relatively speaking) battery pack to the cigarette lighter (what, power can only run one direction?) that will get you to the service station to charge or replace the vehicle's main battery.
It could be something about the size of the 6-volt battery you used to power your last science project; it wouldn't even need to be as large as the standard 12-volt 6-cell in gas-powered vehicles.
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(what, power can only run one direction?)
Well...yes, at least on most modern cars unless it's a 1-2v trickle, otherwise you're likely to turn around and nuke the computer(s) from orbit, even though they're on a protected circuit. But I'm guessing you haven't seen the size of the average battery pack on a ev car. They weigh around 450lbs, and a 6v mini-cell doesn't have the amperage to get you going anywhere.
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(what, power can only run one direction?)
Well...yes, at least on most modern cars unless it's a 1-2v trickle, otherwise you're likely to turn around and nuke the computer(s) from orbit, even though they're on a protected circuit. But I'm guessing you haven't seen the size of the average battery pack on a ev car. They weigh around 450lbs, and a 6v mini-cell doesn't have the amperage to get you going anywhere.
A very good point - if, on the other hand, the vehicle is set up for it ahead of time, it wouldn't necessarily need to be on the same circuit as the onboard computer(s).
Also, the vehicle could be programmed to have a much less "aggressive" motion when running off the smaller (able to be easily carried by a single person) "emergency" battery. It doesn't need to achieve highway speeds, necessarily, just get you to the nearest service station (next exit ramp, in most interstate cases).
... and yeah, my size sca
Re:Nope (Score:4, Insightful)
In a gasoline powered fuel, you walk to the nearest gas station, fill up a container with gas, walk it back to your car, and you are good to go. If we could come up with a similar mechanism for an electric car, and help people feel comfortable that the need to employ it would be rare, then the concern would be mostly gone.
We don't need to come up with one. There is one - at least for lead acid battery vehicles. Lead acid batteries 'recover' a small amount of voltage when left to stand, so if you run out of charge in a lead acid EV, you let the car sit for 10-20 minutes and you'll have enough charge to creep a few kilometers home. And in any EV, 'running out of charge' is a gradual process, it's not like in a fuel powered vehicle where you go from 100% performance to 0% instantly.
I think the best suggestion I've seen so far is make sure the batteries used are modular, and easy to replace. If you run out of power, you can go grab a single replacement, which would get you to the station, where you could swap out the rest.
This actually ain't bad. A 10kg lithium booster battery would hold enough charge to get you to the nearest charge point.
The problem with that line of thought is that battery technology, and electric car technology - is not yet at a point where it is "good enough".
Actually, for the vast majority of purposes and drivers, EV technology IS good enough. Sadly, when people come up against new ideas we love to play "what if" and come up with scenarios where the new thing won't work. It's a cheap, easy way to feel smart. That's why you talk to the guy from Chicago who does 20km a week, and he says "yeah but what if I want to drive to my aunt's house in London?" Bingo, electric cars are obviously useless and he gets to feel smug for 10 minutes knowing that he's smarter than whoever suggested electric cars to him.
The end result is that until a new technology is markedly better in every way than the old technology it replaces, it will see undeserved resistance from the general market.
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I've heard that several times and it doesn't make any sense to me.
Even the "average commuter" usually drives some distance on occasion. For example, I currently don't drive to work at all (happen to be in easy walking distance of where I work), but when I do drive, it's generally over 500 miles (my trips have been 700-1500 miles and I do maybe four or so of them per year). A car that requires a recharge every 150 miles is a no go for me. Even if I do transition to a typical commuter profile, I still am going to be very reluctant to maintain two cars (one for commuting and
Re:Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
[...] when I do drive, it's generally over 500 miles (my trips have been 700-1500 miles and I do maybe four or so of them per year [...] Even if I do transition to a typical commuter profile, I still am going to be very reluctant to maintain two cars (one for commuting and one for traveling) when all I really need is one car which has typical endurance (300-400 miles between refuel/recharge).
Two words: Rental Car.
You have the electric for most of your driving. When you need a car for some kind of distance, rent one. Especially if you're doing it only four times per year.
I like to do bike rides in my area. I'll rent a minivan for a day once a month, since I have a little sports car that won't fit a bicycle. It costs me around $50. That's cheaper than a car payment on a second car.
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It would be really dumb on my part to buy a vehicle that is sub-optimal for ninety percent or more of my normal use just to make the remaining ten percent of my use easier.
Even if we make the generous assumption that an electric vehicle is better than a gas powered car for commutes, I've already pointed out that yes, the remaining 10% of driving is important enough to me to matter. It doesn't matter if it is "really dumb" or not. That's the situation. I imagine there are a number of other "average commuters" in the same boat.
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Surely what he's proposing is getting a vehicle that fits your needs? If you spend 50 weeks of the year using your car to commute, to drive to the shops and to drive your kids to sports practice, and 2 weeks of the year driving long distances for a holiday, doesn't it fit your needs better to have a car that will make 95% of your driving cheaper, more environmentally friendly and less prone to breakdowns, and then rent a vehicle for the occasional long-distance journey?
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It's called distrusting anything that's not similar to what you're used to, and there's substantial historical precedent for it.
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Someone's bound to bring up the energy thing, but it's pointless in most cases because electric cars are really about shifting the pollution out of crowded cities.
Your math is wrong, or you are a driving hazard. (Score:4, Informative)
...I would want to to hold a full day's drive, at least 1000 miles...
Good grief. 1,000 miles is a lot more than a full day's drive... For the sake of argument, we'll say you're doing circles on a highway in Texas, so you can actually get away with an average speed of 75 miles an hour... Do you realize you're casually throwing around nearly 14 hours' driving time, not accounting for stops for food/bathroom breaks? Never mind that (assuming a very generous 350 miles per tank of gas) you would need to stop at least 3 times, simply for gasoline. That's nearly double the amount of time that truckers are legally allowed to drive in a single day, for fatigue reasons. All of this is at high speed, with no stopping. Drop the average speed to something more reasonable, like 60mph, and you end up with a driving time of nearly 17 hours. I have personally managed an 1800 mile cross-country trip in three actual days (not "driving time" but "actual time elapsed"), and let me tell you, that was a brutal pace. A thousand miles is closer to two full days' reasonable driving time than to the "full day's drive" you claim. Having driven to remote locations as part of my job, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that a full day of "on the clock" driving is more like 400 miles per 8-hour day, assuming perfect weather/visibility and no construction.
To stay on the topic of "a full tank of gas", I get about 300 miles to the tank in my PT Cruiser. A full tank is approximately 15 gallons, but that probably isn't relevant information for this conversation. So let's call 300 miles "a tankful". Driving to the nearest town to the north of the one I live in is about 30 miles. I did this 5 times a week to get to my place of employment - and then drove back in the evenings. "Aha!" you shout, "that's a whole tank of gas right there!" To which I respond "Yes, it is. In a week, not a day."
Unless you are a commercial shipping company, or someone whose job it is to drive for hours on end every day, I simply cannot understand your argument.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Interesting)
The answer, of course, would have been an Aptera 2h.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2_Series [wikipedia.org]
An electric that went 100 miles or so, and later a hybrid that has the same batteries but when it ran down, a tiny gasoline motor would kick in recharging them. It's the exact same principle as diesel-electric trains that has been around since the 30s. The plus side is you can still have power (electric DC motors are potent) but you don't need a huge gasoline engine whose size is only used to 100% effect at hard acceleration (and wasting gas otherwise) and instead gear towards the lowest possible gasoline motor (smaller is much more mpg friendly) whose maximum output will roughly match the average depletion of the batteries during normal driving. Maybe a tiny fraction more.
Hell, even the really advanced big motored cars are trying to save gas by turning of cylinders (some Mercedes and Cadillacs, maybe others), why not bypass all that mechanical complexity and go with a tried and true system that worked the last 70 years for big ass trains?
Jay Leno testing the all electric Aptera just to prove it's not 100% vaporware:
http://vimeo.com/5285448 [vimeo.com]
It doesn't need to be aptera only, but I think the only thing holding up the system are the weenies that think it's better to reach Utopia first (no gas instead of, say 100+ mpg) forgetting their little envirobiles will be made of plenty of lightweight plastic (petroleum).
I mean, if you really have a hard on for an electric car but need range from time to time, the only other real solution is to buy some electric car and rent a gas car when you need it.
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This is the approach being taken by the Chevy Volt, which isn't on sale yet but seems far more likely to see widespread adoption than the Aptera (based on marketing budgets and so on).
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Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas
I don't see much added value in increasing the range over ~200 miles, unless you are surpassing ~1000.
Contradictory statements; most vehicles have a tank that only allows them to go a little over 200 miles in typical driving. It's rare to have both a large tank and good mileage like my MBZ 300SD which can go well over 400 miles on one fill.
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I hate to argue against you, but....
1,000 mile
Re:Nope (Score:4, Insightful)
And give me a million dollars, world peace, and a comfy pair of shoes or don't even bother.
Tell you what, junior. Why don't you give me a call when gas is six bucks a gallon?
Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had been working on the light bulb and this guy would have said, "Whaddya mean I need a cord? My candle doesn't need a cord. You can keep your stupid electric light until you don't need a cord.
Sport, that's just not how progress happens.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course Edison didn't say that. He said "hey this dude Swanson has something that I can make a ton of money off, so I guess I'll just steal it".
Re:Nope (Score:5, Informative)
Can you imagine if Thomas Edison had been working on the light bulb and this guy would have said, "Whaddya mean I need a cord? My candle doesn't need a cord. You can keep your stupid electric light until you don't need a cord.
He would have had to ask Tesla nicely?
Re:Nope (Score:5, Informative)
"Why don't you give me a call when gas is six bucks a gallon?"
Rrrrrring! It's more than that on the gas-station I can see from here. (Europe)
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In Europe gas is over 9 bucks a gallon since forever, and nobody is in need of electric cars.
Yeah, gas was around $10 a gallon in the UK when I emigrated... it may well be more now. Of course British electrical generating capacity is about to collapse as they haven't even started to build the large number of plants required to replace those that will be shut down in the next few years, so buying an electric car there would be insane.
Why Not? (Score:5, Interesting)
Since we can plug in an electric car for repowering in our homes and at our offices (and other destinations), they don't need as far a range. And since we generally use our cars for much shorter trips than the maximum range, that range was wasted capacity anyway, except for rare trips. Trips for which we can rent a car more suited for it.
The main problem with our transit economy has been buying cars with much more capacity than we need, and then looking for excuses to use it. If the lower capacity of early electric cars gets Americans to change our driving habits to use less energy, plus they're more efficient, we'll have won on both the important fronts needed to use energy responsibly.
Once the technology can offer the same full range at the same price for the machines as combustion cars did, we'll largely have outgrown them. But to get there, we need more people to realize that these early versions are completely satisfactory for reasonable use. Which will increase consumption, deliver returns on the initial models' investment, and bring down prices while increasing performance.
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The average American family owns two cars. For long family trips, they only need one that can go great distances. The other is almost entirely used for work commuting, a task for which electric vehicles are particularly suited.
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The average American family owns one car per driver's license. And frequently an extra vehicle for hauling things around.
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While the cost of electrics may not be plummeting quickly, the cost of Gas keeps going ever higher as our supplies dwindle. At some point, the cost of running a gas car will overtake the higher initial cost of electrics even if they don't manage to get the initial cost of electrics down.
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While the cost of electrics may not be plummeting quickly, the cost of Gas keeps going ever higher as our supplies dwindle.
We were paying nearly $1.50 a liter last year and have been paying about $0.90 a liter this year. In which universe is that 'keeping going ever higher'?
Our Civic cost about half of what a Volt is predicted to cost, and gets 30-45 miles per Canadian gallon. You'd need to drive a heck of a lot of miles, or see massive increases in the price of gas, to make up for the difference in price between the two.
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The concept behind peak oil [wikipedia.org] is that there is a fixed amount of stuff in the ground, and we're depleting it at increasing rates. At some point between now and 2030 production will start decreasing, as the wells we can reach will be depleted.
Of course, there are lots of artificial factors in the market. OPEC shot the cost of gas through the roof in the 70's, and market manipulations helped drive gas up during the collapse of 2008. But as a force like entropy, supplies will peak and recede in our short-term
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Embed solar panels in the road surface and we can have potentially unlimited range.
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Embed solar panels in the road surface and we can have potentially unlimited range.
I think that's a great idea, but we'll also need a way to keep them clean. Getting driven on will dirty them up pretty fast, and a dirty solar panel is a solar panel that's not getting very much sunlight.
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I think that's a great idea, but we'll also need a way to keep them clean. Getting driven on will dirty them up pretty fast, and a dirty solar panel is a solar panel that's not getting very much sunlight.
It's an incredibly stupid idea specifically because the panels which can be driven on do not exist. All glass road surfaces so far imagined dramatically reduce traction, which is unacceptable. It would make more sense to cover the roads which take the most abuse from sun with solar panels to shade them, which would increase their lifespan without making people drive on glass.
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Actually you know the vehicle detectors at intersections use induction. They free run at 70Khz. Now there's a thought....
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I just want a plug-in hybrid that doesn't look dumb. For some reason, nobody wants to make one of these vehicles that looks like a normal car.
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Mod parent up +5 funny!
You really do manage to capture the apathy and ignorance about our energy use from the 'average joe' point of view.
The idea that what we're doing now will continue to scale and that we shouldn't change any of our behaviors to lower our impact cracks me up every time.
Kudos on your satire!
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I'm tired of hearing freeloading couch potatoes sniping at innovators for not bringing them chicken cordon bleu on a silver platter. Make the damn thing yourself and then call yourself up, you demanding little prick. Or just keep your problems to yourself while you wait for other people do the work for you.
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I'm tired of hearing about electric/hybrid vehicles. Give me something that goes the same distance of a tank of gas, reduce the price of these machines, and then give me a call.
Nah. They'll just raise the price of gas until you'll change your mind. Once you can only afford to fill your tank half full, range of EVs doesn't feel so bad any more.
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You know, something they really miss out on is the TCO. It's occasionally mentioned, but frequently ignored. "Oohh, I get 60mpg". Great. When the vehicle costs more than a regular gas vehicle, and replacement parts are a deal breaker, it's not feasible.
I'm driving my 10 year old car. I've had to replace some parts (brake pads, clutch, water pump, 2 batteries, and a few belts), but it's also done me very well over 115,000 miles, some of it was amazingly abusive driving. Be
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In fact, that's why I think the Toyota Prius with the lithium-ion battery pack and optional plug-in charging--which gives it an all-electric range of about 20-25 km before it switches back to conventional hybrid drive mode if you charge the battery pack overnight--makes a lot more sense. It's proven technology, and doesn't need a total redesign of the drivetrain outside of circuitry to accommodate a Li-On battery pack instead of a NiMH battery pack.
Ford--who uses a hybrid-drive technology very similar to wh
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I hope you meant mph.
I know SI units are all the rage, but you have to remember to change the numbers when you change the units. 60 km/h is all of 36mph.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Informative)
&& >= 60 km/h.
Ignoring that 60km/h can be done on a moped, I'll assume you meant 60mph. Which, if you had done more than jump on the groupthink bandwagon, you would realize is easily doable (admittedly with "high-performance" electric vehicles, but still). Mass-production vehicles don't necessarily need to be all that speedy, although I don't think 60mph is outside the realm of "normal" unless you're some kind of anti-technology freak.
The biggest factor against electric vehicles is currently range, not speed. Tesla motors has had an electric drag racer for several years; you can easily find videos of their electric car absolutely smoking petroleum-based racers on the track. Power is actually *better* with an electric motor - the power (torque) curve is dramatically different in an electric motor as compared to a combustion engine, in that (in a basic sense) the power is all available regardless of the RPM of the motor, as opposed to a combustion engine requiring rotational energy before it can crank out decent numbers.
I've heard some absolutely ridiculous arguments against electric motor ranges, by the way - someone actually commented that traffic would obliterate the supposed fuel-efficiency numbers of any EV... without stopping to think that when the vehicle is not in motion, the motor isn't doing anything. If you are at a red light, the only things taking electrical power are your radio and the vehicle's climate-control system - unlike a combustion engine, which keeps a massive flywheel turning as long as the vehicle is "running". This can be unsettling in a hybrid; it takes some getting used to when your car appears to stall and die every time you come to a complete stop.
Energy storage technology is improving at a rapid pace, both on the size/mass end of things (how big/heavy is it), and on the capacity end of things (how long does a single charge last). A recent development in the field (were one to inquire) would be a battery that can be printed using an ink-jet printer, on normal paper (special ink, of course). This should make capacitor technology achieve things previously thought of as outside the realm of possibility, and quite soon.
On the "consumer-ready" side of the equation, a Swedish company recently received a prize for designing and building a vehicle they believe will cost approximately US$20,000 per unit for mass production. It's a 4-seater that achieves highway speeds, and it actually resembles a car (as opposed to the "concept vehicles" that have been being trumpeted as the latest and greatest but which no one in their right mind would be caught actually driving).
I don't mean to get all ad-hominem on you, but did you bother to do a simple web query before responding, or was this more of an off-the-cuff knee-jerk type of thing?
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&& >= 60 km/h.
Where have ye been sleeping the last decade? The Honda Insight, Toyota Prius, and 2002 released Honda Civic are all hybrids and all meet your demands for unlimited distance, same cost as a regular car, and highway speeds. But heaven forbid you let facts get in the way.
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...also, don't forget that the impact of EVs on the environment hasn't been fully evaluated yet...
What is there to evaluate?
Batteries are bad for landfills, ok, yeah. Capacitors seem to be the way to go, which should minimize this, not to mention that petroleum-based vehicles create plenty of noxious things that are bad for the environment - used motor oil is a wonderful example of something we'll be ridding ourselves of by using electric vehicles instead of gas-powered ones. I'll call this one a tie.
Power plants create pollution, sure. So do refineries. So do oil spills. Seems to me that moving to cle
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To be honest, I give it less than 10 years before legislation banning the use of combustion engines is introduced
It's not impossible that sale of new combustion-powered vehicles to normal consumers will be banned within twenty years, but nothing important happens in ten years, and battery technology is not even vaguely close to providing enough power for commercial vehicles like 18 wheelers.
Electric vehicles are quieter than combustion engine vehicles, they don't require/emit nasty fumes just by their existence (oh, you like the smell of gas, my bad); they're just better.
They continue to have inferior range and refueling time, and as such, are not a fit for everything. Most home with multiple vehicles could replace one with an EV, though, and that could make a gigantic difference.