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Communications Technology

Smart Grid Brings Powerline Broadband Back? 120

Posted by CmdrTaco from the more-stuff-less-wires dept.
judgecorp writes "The UK is giving powerline broadband a serious trial once again, in up to 1000 homes in Liverpool. The technology was once hailed as an alternative to ADSL, delivered over the electricity mains, but lost out because of radio interference and price. The UK government is backing the installation of smart meters across the country, and it seems a new generation of 200Mbps powerline broadband could ride on that, cutting the installation costs. What about the interference issues? A recent FAQ from the regulator, Ofcom, says it has not found any evidence of a breach of EMC rules, but is keeping an eye on it."
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Smart Grid Brings Powerline Broadband Back? More

Smart Grid Brings Powerline Broadband Back?

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  • sed 's/eficdence/evidence/' summary

    So wrong it's not even right. Can we get wiki style volunteer editors?

    • sed 's/eficdence/evidence/' summary

      So wrong it's not even right. Can we get wiki style volunteer editors?

      Your aint nuthine butt a gamma natssi.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by julesh ( 229690 )

      eficdence n. inf. Evidence that is entirely fictitious.

      (Maybe I just made this up. I only have eficdence that this is a word in actual use.)

  • Yeah, I haven't found any of that either, whatever it is.
  • Sounds pretty good to me, when can I benefit from this in the good ol' USA? p.s. "evicdence" was pretty rough.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by hodet ( 620484 )
      I wouldn't hold my breath. There are all kinds of powerful folks for who this would not be in their best interest.
      • Like ham radio operators. You know we're secretly controlling the world.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by hodet ( 620484 )
          Didn't know the ham radio lobby group was so powerful. :-P

          • KE5VEU checking in. Here in the States, giving up the Hams isn't an easy thing to do. When another Katrina/Ike/YourNameHere strikes, who still owns the air? We do. Phone lines are dead. Power is out. Who's still on? We are.

        • Like ham radio operators. You know we're secretly controlling the world.

          You could. [technewsdaily.com]

      • >>>powerful folks for who this would not be in their best interest.

        Yep. Like those 50 million or so who enjoy listening to the radio or television. Powerline interference would demolish Shortwave and AM, limit FM/HD reception to just a few miles, and drown out channels 2-13 on the TV.

        • I'm confused, if the powerlines are not currently interfering with OTA TV and radio, why would connecting to the internet over those same wires suddenly change things?
          • As I understand it, instead of broadcasting a nice easy-to-filter 60Hz tone over giant antennas, once you add 256Mbps signal you're all of a sudden broadcasting irregular noise throughout the spectrum.

          • Current powerlines broadcast a nice clean 60 hertz wave which is faaaar below radio/TV frequencies. But when you overlay them with digital data, then they start broadcasting all kinds of high-frequency noise that trample all over the SW/AM/FM bands. DSL and cable lines are shielded to block that leakage but powerlines are not.

  • There was a Slashdot post earlier about forking the Internet, and mesh networking was shot down pretty quick because of large distances between nodes. Could networking over powerlines be a solution?

    • There was a Slashdot post earlier about forking the Internet, and mesh networking was shot down pretty quick because of large distances between nodes. Could networking over powerlines be a solution?

      I doubt it. Broadband over powerlines is no different than broadband over copper. It will still be controlled by mega-corporations and will be able to impose the same restrictions as your current ISP. Simply replacing the physical media does not address the net neutrality issue. IMO, the only way this can be addressed is through laws which protect consumers and guarantee free (as in speech) and open access to the internet.

      • I agree with everything you say but I don't think that was what the GP post asked. It could work as a type of mesh, and it could certainly solve the issue with broadband making it to almost everyone who purchases electricity, but I wonder about the difficulty of running internet over unshielded wire that is already at 15+ kV bare minimum. I honestly think OTA internet (like the type which is being put in place here) is the future.

      • Re:You know that Internet 2 that everyone wanted? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by NevarMore ( 248971 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2011 @11:53AM (#34765488) Homepage Journal

        Its not a cure, but its a start.

        I'm not sure how the UK is, but here in the US:
        Comcast has an interest in blocking Netflix so they can sell me cable and Vonage so they can sell me phone service.
        ATT has an interest in blocking Netflix so they can sell me cable (UVerse) Vonage so they can sell me phone service.
        Eon has an interest in blocking ????? so they can sell me electricity.

        Power companies main advantage is that they're another wire to the home, they have the infrastructure already. They'll have to overcome some hurdles since their current network engineers are in a classic internal support role, that is they have computer networks to support their main power delivery operations rather than supporting routing bits and bytes to the actual customers. The advantage to the consumer is that the power company is used to providing a (metered) pipe and thats about it. They have no other competitive issues because you can't power your house with an internet connection.

        • They have no other competitive issues because you can't power your house with an internet connection.

          That is until Comcast/AT+T/Evil-ISP buys/blocks Eon.

          Until you *cannot* be a content provider *AND* an ISP, Net Neutrality is going the way of the dodo.

        • Re:You know that Internet 2 that everyone wanted? (Score:4, Interesting)

          by vlm ( 69642 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2011 @12:16PM (#34765752)

          The advantage to the consumer is that the power company is used to providing a (metered) pipe and thats about it. They have no other competitive issues because you can't power your house with an internet connection.

          Today, sure. Back in 1984 when I got my first modem AT&T had no residential video service to compete with me.

          It only takes a few months for, say, General Electric/NBC to buy my local power company, and then guess what happens to my netflix access?

          • That all depends, here our electricity is provided by a public utility. But if you're in a part of the country where it was deregulated and/or the utility is private, then you could see all sorts of problems like that.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by vlm ( 69642 )

              That all depends, here our electricity is provided by a public utility. But if you're in a part of the country where it was deregulated and/or the utility is private, then you could see all sorts of problems like that.

              Thats the point. My telephone was provided by a public utility. Now they want to block netflix/itunes/etc because they are also providing video.

              • And Ma Bell was a horrific enterprise. They would have found a way to block Netflix/iTunes/etc. even if they didn't compete with them.
        • The bad part is that broadband over power lines is just a very inefficient way to go. No one ever strung up the power lines and internal power with the idea of keeping a clean signal. The signal quality is much worse than DSL, but at least with DSL it's point-to-point from your home to a remote modem. Power lines are shared... The most traction comes from using it to communicate with meters or power equipment but that's a very low bandwidth use.
        • This sounds just like the claims for BPL here in the states. Claims of no interference problems, Then claims of "all the problems had been fixed" when they never addressed them. OTOH several companies did eliminate RFI on specific bands, but not on the International broadcast bands. In the end they were unable to deliver any where near the bandwidth claimed and those cities and utilities suckered into signing up, quietly dropped the BPL although it may be in use for smart meters then again most of those

      • It will still be controlled by mega-corporations and will be able to impose the same restrictions as your current ISP. Simply replacing the physical media does not address the net neutrality issue. IMO, the only way this can be addressed is through laws which protect consumers and guarantee free (as in speech) and open access to the internet.

        How about, rather than regulating the transit itself, requiring the separation of enterprises that provide "content" from those that provide bit plumbing? That could b

    • Unless there's been radical changes to it in recent years the answer is definitely not. One of the problems with it is that it doesn't handle going through transformers very well, if at all. And if you figure out how to get it to go through the transformers then you've got a serious security problem on your hands.

      All in all, I wouldn't expect this to take off any time soon.

  • eficdence? (Score:3, Funny)

    by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2011 @11:29AM (#34765230) Homepage Journal

    All this summary needs is "Posted from my iPhone"...

  • Ofcom (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    "A recent FAQ from the regulator, Ofcom, says it has not found any evidence of a breach of EMC rules, but is keeping an eye on it."

    I'll just translate this from bullshit to English:

    "A recent FAQ from the regular, Ofcom, says it has not found that it will cause any problems for commercial applications where companies generate a lot of revenue, but that HAMs can go and fuck themselves with their now useless antennae."

  • A slight order of magnitude problem (Score:3)

    by vlm ( 69642 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2011 @11:35AM (#34765304)

    UK government is backing the installation of smart meters across the country, and it seems a new generation of 200Mbps powerline broadband could ride on that

    OK so lets take a look at a typical smart meter, how bout a PCR423 from nationpower.

    It has to be mounted inside the building (which probably pisses off the fire department to no end) and runs at 1200 baud IR, 2400 baud RS485 (for an external modem), a mysterious RF link, and a GPRS/CDMA interface that is probably vaguely Kindle/whispernet like. No options for commo over power lines, but we can guess "somewhere around a K/s" since thats all thats required and all the other interfaces run about that fast, more or less.

    And we'll run 200 M/s over that size of link, what, using compression or something?

    I'm just saying there's got to be more to the story, as the app that fractional gig internet access is supposedly going to "piggyback" is probably (and appropriately) running about 1980's phone modem speed.

    • I don't think they mean that the smart meters themselves will be used for networking, I think they mean that the efforts to install proper powerline networking equipment at the electricity company's end can be shared with the efforts to install infrastructure to talk to the smart meters in the same locations.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by vlm ( 69642 )

        I don't think they mean that the smart meters themselves will be used for networking, I think they mean that the efforts to install proper powerline networking equipment at the electricity company's end can be shared with the efforts to install infrastructure to talk to the smart meters in the same locations.

        Right, my whole point was the infrastructure for electric meters is best engineered at the "K" level, and they're trying to convince us they'll piggyback a "G" level service on top of it. Total BS.

        A similar six order of magnitude malfunction can be seen in this line of reasoning. "I'm taking a glass of iced tea out in the backyard to drink. Both a glass of tea and an inground swimming pool are conceptually similar in that both are concave objects without a top that are full of liquid, I may as well insta

        • To put it another way, it'd be like the phone company trying to sell you a power service using the current supplied on the phone lines. The infrastructure just doesn't exist. The article doesn't seem to provide enough info to distinguish what exactly they intend to do, although it implies that they'd just use the powerline meters. It must just be bad reporting in this instance.

        • Right, my whole point was the infrastructure for electric meters is best engineered at the "K" level, and they're trying to convince us they'll piggyback a "G" level service on top of it. Total BS.

          No, that's not what they're trying to convince us of.

          They're figuring that if they have to implement data-over-powerline anyway to support smart meters etc., they might as well implement it at as high a speed as possible and sell the excess to the customer. Instead of installing hardware that will do 1200 baud

    • It has to be mounted inside the building (which probably pisses off the fire department to no end)

      I know thats different in other places, but I never saw a power meter OUTSIDE a house over here and no firefighter is pissed of about that fact.

      Power cables run directly from the main branch below the street into the basements along with water, phone and cable tv.

      This never has been an issue with the firefighters I know of. They are more concerned with the rising numbers of photovoltaic cells and are suggesting easily accessible breakers for them.

      • Re:A slight order of magnitude problem (Score:5, Informative)

        by vlm ( 69642 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2011 @12:07PM (#34765638)

        I know thats different in other places, but I never saw a power meter OUTSIDE a house over here and no firefighter is pissed of about that fact.

        Power cables run directly from the main branch below the street into the basements along with water, phone and cable tv.

        This never has been an issue with the firefighters I know of.

        Oh they're probably pissed, but even if they change the building code its not going to fix itself instantly so, don't worry be happy.

        The logic is, if the house is on fire and you intend to fill it with water and firemen, by far the fastest and safest way to pull electrical power to the site is to pull the meter. Every other option, like giant fiberglass bolt cutters, calling a lineman, etc, is slower, more expensive, less safe...

      • It's not a good practice, and it's definitely not something that the building codes of the present and future are going to allow. It's similar to gas meters. Around here they were placed inside for whatever reason, that only changed a couple years ago when the utility went through and replaced their mains and lines with high pressure ones. At that time they came in and put in their new meter outside.

        One of the big problems is that without the government subsidizing it, they typically have to wait for the

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by n6gn ( 851311 )
      Don't confuse the user connection with the 'backhaul' which is the over-power-line part. However, also don't confuse 200 Mbps on a lab bench with a lot less than that over a single hop on real lines having excess noise, attenuation. The 200 Mbps hardware may only need 20 MHz of spectrum in the 4-80 MHz region to support that raw rate but after a few links are chained together throughput will likely be a LOT lower than that. Now aggregate 1000 homes onto that backhaul and you may scarcely have enough perform

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jimicus ( 737525 )

      Don't think I've ever seen an electricity meter outside in the UK. Gas, sure. Electricity? Never.

      The weather around here would mean that if you needed to work on it, you'd either need to bolt a tent to the front of the house or you'd only be able to work about 120 days of the year.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by julesh ( 229690 )

      It has to be mounted inside the building (which probably pisses off the fire department to no end)

      Here in the UK it's usual to have your meter inside the building, and I've never heard the fire services complain about it. Gas meters are sometimes located outside in newer buildings, but I've never seen electricity anywhere other than inside.

      I'm just saying there's got to be more to the story, as the app that fractional gig internet access is supposedly going to "piggyback" is probably (and appropriately) running about 1980's phone modem speed.

      You're missing the point, which is dual:

      1. The electricity company's are going to be digging up every road, replacing all their existing equipment, and generally overhauling their entire consumer distribution network anyway, so adding a new capability to it at the sa

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by vlm ( 69642 )

      Here in Houston, CenterPoint Energy provides the utility. As of a few weeks ago, I've noticed that my energy provider keeps a record of how much energy I've used each day on the hour. It's pretty damned cool that I can review this data. I can even spot the areas where I've cooked (electric, no gas) at that time of day. What I'm must curious about is *how* each meter uploads the data.

      I've been informed by others that maybe it uses a form of powerline broadband with the new meters. Is this true?

      The term you don't know to google for is "Zigbee". Google for "Zigbee Houston CenterPoint Energy" and you'll pages of links explaining how there is a zigbee (which is vaguely like long distance bluetooth) link from many meters to a poletop device that connects via some vaguely wifi-ish radios and/or GSM/CDMA cellular data service (like a kindle whispernet) back to the office. You can find the resume of the guy whom set up the cellular side links, if you search carefully.

      Not exactly powerline broadband. M

      • This appears to be what Duke is using in Cincinnati. At about the time my smart gas and electric meters were installed, a device went on the power pole with two antennas labeled "gas/electric."

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by vlm ( 69642 )

          I googled around and Duke uses software called "Echelon" (yeah as if that word doesn't have a negative history) and the press release rags have stories listing zigbee based links as a competitor of that Echelon system. Which may not longer be the case if they added zigbee support to Echelon.

          Similar design, seems to be a different technology interface.

          • I had heard that the BPL project was on hold until the supplier could include sensors on the transformers (e.g. if a transformer failed, the sensor would report that to Duke). The story I saw indicates that the Echelon equipment can use either BPL or a Verizon connection to get the data back to Duke. I'm guessing that they will start with Verizon and then include many meters in the BPL connection. I can confirm that by checking the houses that have BPL and see if they have the same type of box on the power

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        You don't quite have that one right. Centerpoint Energy's smart metering system is the OpenWay system from Itron, which uses the unlicensed 900 Mhz band to form mesh network with each of its nodes that then connects back up to pole top boxes with either a cellular or ethernet backhaul.

        Zigbee is also a feature of these meters, but is used to connect to in home devices, like thermostats, to notify user about varying rates at different times of day and such.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by vlm ( 69642 )

          OK very interesting.

          I was going off employee resumes and some press releases. I had the impression the wifi-ish meshy thing was on the poles and the backup to it was the cellular and the link into the house was the zigbee. There certainly are several meter manufacturers that like zigbee.

          If you have better sources (like, maybe you're one of the online resumes I read?) then I guess you're right, otherwise we have to compare source quality to figure which interpretation is more likely to be correct. Otherwi

      • I wondered what ever happened to the idea floating around about wiring all the meters. I guess this zigbee thing took over.

        (Years and years ago there was the idea that the power company could save money in the long run on human meter-readers by running a wire to every meter for smart metering, and there was talk that that they could run a broadband wire for about the same cost as any other wire. The argument was that not only would they save money in the long run, they would also be able to generate extra i

  • interference (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Sooooooo, what exactly will Ofcoms explanation be when all of a sudden I can't get a single station on my short-wave radio? Did they all go off air, at the same time?
    And every HAM in Britain's equipment suddenly broke due to magic?
    And all the CB's pick up this weird noise due to pranksters broadcasting it on ever single channel?

    This is beyond a joke now, Ofcom exists exactly so this sort of shit doesn't happen, and I think the issue has now progressed to the point where some individuals need to face crimin

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by vlm ( 69642 )

      Sooooooo, what exactly will Ofcoms explanation be when all of a sudden ....
      And every HAM in Britain's equipment suddenly broke due to magic?...

      I am not sure of your regulations, but here the line will be "And every facebook / youtube / netflix couch potatoe in the neighborhood screams when I key my 1500 watt legal limit ham radio amplifier (now required to be heard over the noise, I used to do 5 watts QRP)"

      • Ahhh, but you know you're not allowed to cause harmful interference; so, the onus will be on you to resolve the problem...

        • Ahhh, but you know you're not allowed to cause harmful interference; so, the onus will be on you to resolve the problem...

          In the US most consumer devices must not cause interfere to Amateur Radio operations, but Amateur Radio equipment is allowed priority regarding interfere with most consumer devices. This is because the Amateur Radio Service and the experienced radio operators are considered valuable national resources, particularly in emergency/disaster scenarios.

          Hams have generally cultivated a culture of being considerate & helpful to those nearby who experience RFI (Radio Frequency Interference). Hams will typically

          • In the US most consumer devices must not cause interfere to Amateur Radio operations, but Amateur Radio equipment is allowed priority regarding interfere with most consumer devices. This is because the Amateur Radio Service and the experienced radio operators are considered valuable national resources, particularly in emergency/disaster scenarios.

            It's actually simpler than that. Unlicensed users (most consumer devices) must not cause interference to, and must accept interference from, ANY licensed user. T

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by teevoh ( 866693 )
        How is your 1500 watt transmitter going to help you overcome the reception noise on your end? It's not and you're going to just piss off the neighborhood and spend $4,000+ on equipment to do it.
        • How is your 1500 watt transmitter going to help you overcome the reception noise on your end? It's not and you're going to just piss off the neighborhood and spend $4,000+ on equipment to do it.

          It won't. Transmitters don't deal with reception. But the 1500 watt transmitter that the guy on the other end of the link is using will overcome my rx noise, for the same reason that I'm using 1500 watts to overcome the noise at his end.

          Pissing off the neighborhood requires them knowing who and why the outages are

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • When the US was looking at this a bit harder. It was said some Japanese scientists had figured out how to get data past the transformers. (up/down)
      As this was one of the largest hurdles it stuck in my head. I believe it has been taken care of and if I recall it was fairly elegant and cheap.

      I'd really like a third broadband option.. or even a fourth that is similar in speeds to Cable. AT&T can't even hope to compete with my current Comcast speeds. "unless they do fttp"

      At&t can do 18mbps as long as I

      • You've probably got a third option, Satellite, and it's probably more useful than powerline will be.

        The bigger issue is that we don't have the ISP as a public utility and we don't have the ISP as a free market either. Around here Qwest charges roughly $50 a month for 5mpbs but in some markets they supposedly offer 40mbps for $55 a month. Which doesn't make sense from a technical standpoint as I'm within a few short miles of a major Internet Exchange Point.

        At this point, the connection speeds available
    • They convert the signal to optic and then convert it back to an electric signal on the low side (115/230V) of the transformer. The optic connection is to eliminate any possibility that the high distribution voltage (say, 13,000 V) would bleed over to the low voltage side. We have had it for some time here in Cincinnati.

    • This has been "going to happen" since, at least, the 1940s. At least once a decade someone reinvents the idea and creates a lot of interest. Then it dies again for a while.

      The entire power grid is an RF choke. RF over the power lines works until it gets to a transformer. That's a good thing because it reduces impulse noise which can play havoc with electronic equipment. Fast rise time impulse noise on power lines is a problem in electronic equipment and instrumentation.

    • Obviously, the Transformer does its thing and turns into a router when it sees any oncoming data. It also turns on the evil bits, in case it is a Decepticon.

  • Causes interference to licensed spectrum users (Score:4, Informative)

    by LaissezFaire ( 582924 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2011 @12:12PM (#34765714) Journal
    Groups like the American Radio Relay League have fought [arrl.org] against this for a long time, as well as recently [arrl.org], too. There's talk of notching [arrl.org] the BPL, and is done some places, but not everywhere. Since the feds took over the developing ownership rights of the spectrum with the FCC, it's their responsibility to ensure BPL providers aren't interfering with licensed spectrum users.

    • I see above a link to the Ofcom FAQ. As usual this is a bit disingenous, where it states that they have not found any breach of the essential requirements of the EMC Regulations, what they fail to state is that in all the tests that have been conducted by independent test houses the peak level of emissions is >30dB above the EN55022 Class B limits, which is a strange definition of EMC compliant in my book.

      Ofcom is a politically motivated body, and it doesn't want to rock the boat with the EU and brand PL

  • How the system will work. (Score:3)

    by odin84gk ( 1162545 ) on Wednesday January 05, 2011 @12:38PM (#34766040)

    Lets assume they are using the +20MHz spectrum. There are a few installations in the US (I believe one is in Colorado). Essentially, a collector is installed on the LV side of a power line transformer. (The transformer acts like a filter to the signal, isolating the connection from other neighborhoods.) This collector is typically connected to another technology as the backhaul. In Europe, it is reasonable to expect 200 homes on a single transformer, so it is very cost-effective for this kind of utilization. In the US, you get only 1-8 homes per transformer, so the cost is fairly large. If you really need to, you can use the MV line to transmit this PLC as a backhaul.

    200Mbps is the Maximum amount, used for marketing purposes. In Europe, they can have a couple hundred houses connected to the same LV transformer. This means that you are sharing a 200 Mbps connection with the neighborhood. If you assume 100 homes for one transformer and 50% utilization, a home can get a maximum of 2Mbps (assuming an ideal backhaul). As you all know, this is an "ideal" number. If they try to use PLC as the backhaul (instead of fiber), then you share the bandwidth with other neighborhoods, reducing your datarate well below 1Mbps.

    Other considerations: Repeaters.
    Underground wiring is another filter. This kind of technology will require a repeater every 100 meters for a full underground installation. Overhead wires need a repeater every 500 meters or so. If you are in a high-noise environment (as in, there is a factory connected to your substation), datarates are decreased and more repeaters are required.

    Simply put, the final system will look closer to 500Kbps per home and it will cost a significant amount of money to the homeowner, either through taxes or through required rate hikes on your utility bill.)

    So if you want to use PLC to help solve the ISP monopoly, you are looking in the wrong place.

    Signed,
    A Smart-Grid researcher and designer for the US market

    • With a repeater THAT regularly, I'd get better speeds with ADSL, with 1km repeaters. Though the ADSL repeaters would need to be powered, where as these are self powered.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by n6gn ( 851311 )
      I note that the OPERA report (Open PLC European Research Alliance, Document OP_WP1_D5_v0.9.doc) indicated a lot less than 200 Mbps of information capacity on typical European systems.A better guess seems to be 20Mbps on a good day. Thus, with your estimations, more like 50 kbps per home with conventional BPL/PLC techniques (below 80 MHz) seems likely. All the more reason to move it to microwave-over-powerline. n6gn

  • Yes BPL affects Hams, but more importantly it also wipes out Ambulance, Fire, Marine, Aircraft, Miltary, SW Broadcasting and any other essential service which uses ShortWave for emergency communications.

    Whenever you read an idiot moaning about ham interference, you know you are reading a troll or someone trying to spin the issue. Hams are largely protected by notching, but there are many other vitally important services which are at risk.

    There are other issues as well. The Power Lines are very, very noisy.

    • Hams are largely protected by notching, but there are many other vitally important services which are at risk.

      Except that the ARRL found out that, in at least one deployment, the BPL company left out the notch filters - both for Ham and for Aircraft bands.

  • You can only put so much bandwidth on a power line. One interesting idea I've seen is running it down natural gas pipes. You could go to terahertz speeds with that, and it's underground.

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