Are We Too Reliant On GPS? 325
RedEaredSlider writes "A new report from the Royal Academy of Engineering in London suggests developed nations have become too reliant on GPS systems. The report from the Academy focuses on global navigation satellite systems (GNSS) and their vulnerabilities. These vulnerabilities include deliberate or accidental interference, both man-made (such as jamming) and natural (such as solar flares). While most people equate GPS systems with the tiny screens which get drivers from point A to point B, the report says society's reliance on the technology goes well beyond that. The Academy says the range of applications using the technology is so vast that without adequate independent backup, signal failure or interference could potentially affect safety systems and other critical parts of the economy."
The only solution is to move back into caves (Score:5, Insightful)
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But I can't buy an airplane jammer for under $100 on dealextreme... unless you count the green lasers I guess!
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It is a lot easier to have some nut drive a truck with a bomb into the local substation and leave half of your town without power than to scramble the same bomb into orbit and nuke a GPS satellite, causing the next available to become offline. It is also a lot easier to hide afterwards if you just send a truck than if you develop and launch a big enough rocket.
Having nuts sabotage a large enough number of substations to cause serious disruption in the US is much harder, but still a lot easier than knocking
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I think the point of all this is that for many it is not trivial when GPS fails.
From my observation, yes, many people are far too reliant on GPS and would greatly benefit from applying mental exercise to the purpose of knowing where they are on earth. I use landmarks, assumed compass, and the path I recently traveled so as to 'know' where I am. And from what I can tell, I'm better than the GPS on my phone, lol.
The Solution. (Score:2)
Lucky I've got GLONASS. Pfft GPS. (Score:2)
I was cleaning the basement the other day and came across an old compass of mine. It got me thinking, I wonder if future generations are even going to be able to operate the things.
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I was cleaning the basement the other day and came across an old compass of mine. It got me thinking, I wonder if future generations are even going to be able to operate the things.
Check with people in your own age group; you may be disappointed with the small number of people in that group who are able to use a compass or find their way unassisted with minimal aids. The number of such people is most probably declining with each new generation, but it wasn't very high to begin with.
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You dropped the acronym I was looking for, but proceeded not to say anything about it.
The summary itself says that they're not just talking about GPS in your car or your phone, but the whole GPS system. But GPS isn't the only game in town. GLONASS is the Russian version of GPS, already covers most of the world, and is expected to provide global coverage this year. The EU is building up Galileo, only a couple test satellites in, with the first four operational satellites being launched this year. The Chi
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I got news for you:
Most of the past generations can't use the thing either.
If it's there people will use it (Score:3)
I was talking to a friend in my CCNA class (Score:2)
He's an inertial nav test guy, I'm a former avionics developer.
We both agreed that we can understand the financial incentives to remove inertial nav from planes, but that it's misguided.
You *NEED* a backup in case GPS fails (and dead reckoning has a good chance of leaving you just that -- dead).
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Compasses do not work in airplanes? Maps do not work at altitude?
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Compasses do not work in airplanes? Maps do not work at altitude?
Take a small plane up and find out. Pretty much, the answer is "no". Occasionally, in smooth air, when you're flying straight and level for awhile, you'll get a snapshot fix of where you're probably pointed, within 10, maybe even 5 degrees. Its not quite like on a large boat where it mostly just works.
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I never have tried it. I was actually asking. So how did they do it before GPS and fancy inertial nav?
compass, maps, and landmarks (Score:2)
just as you thought
beg to differ (Score:2)
I lived in what was then Zaire for three years back in the late 80s. Flew in a significant number of small planes using visual sight rules, maps, compass, etc. Had some close calls when the weather socked in over a dirt airstrip right before we got there, but for the most part it worked just fine.
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He's an inertial nav test guy, I'm a former avionics developer.
We both agreed that we can understand the financial incentives to remove inertial nav from planes, but that it's misguided.
You *NEED* a backup in case GPS fails (and dead reckoning has a good chance of leaving you just that -- dead).
Considering how relatively cheap LORAN was to maintain, I don't think we should have retired it. In a war with a peer enemy... say China just for illustration here... one of the first things they'll do is fire off ASAT's at our orbiting assets like GPS and communications satellites. Something other than a compass and a map would be nice to have as a backup in cockpits and quarterdecks.
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Thus ruining space for everyone and making me finally realize humans in general are worthless shitheads.
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GPS sats are too high for current gen Chinese ASATs but that may well change at some point. GPS is WELL above LEO.
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You do realize that type of tactic means they won't be able to use satellites as well, right?
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You *NEED* a backup in case GPS fails (and dead reckoning has a good chance of leaving you just that -- dead).
As you aviation guys probably know, the most likely failure mode is not the GPS satellites being shot down or jammed, but the single GPS antenna getting iced over and cracking or the single feedline falling off or the single GPS "engine" overheating or the DC power to the GPS shorting out or open circuit, or
original report is online (Score:4, Informative)
Why does the Railroads need GPS when they (Score:2)
Why does the Railroads need GPS when they they have FIXED TRACK and like 30-40 year old systems for keeping track where trains are at.
Anybody got a sextant? (Score:2)
I've got a slide-rule, if that helps with the math and trig.
GPS usage (Score:2)
Time synchronization (Score:2)
A lot of people think of GPS as only positioning, but a lot of embedded things pull time through GPS (either PPS for real time, or 10MHz for use as a timebase).
I'm sure there are plenty of things with sloppy code that doesn't exactly fail gracefully when losing GPS, especially for long time periods.
Anyway, another aspect to think about.
Per Submission or Per Word? (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder whether IBTimes pays RedEaredSlider per submission or per word for his work?
In his brief time on Slashdot, RedEaredSlider has submitted many dozens of articles; every single one of them references IBTimes and only IBTimes. I could even forgive a little Roland-Piqepaille-like self promotion, but this pattern of behavior screams paid promotion.
I ask a question in rebuttal: has Slashdot become too reliant on corporate media promoters?
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Yep, another example of the dumbing down of /. the tag line really ought to be changed to 'old news for wannabe nerds, stuff that's paid for'.
This story hit the BBC at least 21 hours before IBTimes published and, unlike IBTimes, they had the good journalistic principles to link to the original report for us all to read: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12668230 [bbc.co.uk]
Too much infrastructure is using GPS (Score:2)
First, there's no reason why a cell phone tower or an ATM should need GPS data to operate. There are many other ways to get timestamps, and in neither case is the facility likely to move much.
Anything important should have a GPS smart enough to tell when its data is no good. If you can receive from four satellites, you have enough information to tell if the data you're getting is bogus. Life-critical applications like aircraft should receive from GPS, GLONASS, and Galileo, and cross-check.
GPS satellite
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Also bear in mind that GPS control is very centralized. It's run from Colorado Springs, and if the control center goes down, the constellation becomes inaccurate after a week or so.
That's not entirely true. Yes, the primary C2 facility for GPS is in Colorado Springs (Schriever Air Force Base, to be precise), but the Air Force has alternate facilities in different parts of the country that they can spin up in less than a day, should the need arise.
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um, then how did Russia use it?
I suspect there is more then one place that has a control center.
of course we are (Score:2)
we are too reliant on all technology.
If it all breaks down or stops working, we are fucked.
GPS and its competition (Score:2)
Are we too reliant on electric motors? (Score:3)
I can connect a GPS antenna on the roof to a small box in the lab and have frequency and time references at an accuracy that previously were limited to national laboratories! (search for Trimble Thunderbolt). When the green lights are on, I've got accuracy on the order of ten to the minus eleven or better.
To the over-reliance claim, when the green lights go off on that box and the red lights go on, I'm back to using the references in each of my lab instruments. More important, the red lights let me know I'm not operating at those higher, known, levels of accuracy.
The "over-reliance" argument is more an argument against not having a Plan B to put into action when Plan A goes down the tubes. Am I "over-reliant" on electric motors because I use an electric shaver in the morning rather than a straight razor? Or because I use a motorized coffee grinder rather than some manually operated device? No, it's a trade-off, and hopefully one I have made knowingly.
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Not really.
GPS satellites orbit at 20,000 km and are therefore VERY hard to take out. We have bigger problems if that happens.
Jammers that are strong enough to disrupt aircraft are strong enough to locate and destroy (AGM-88 HARM). Perhaps the trickiest situation would be small jammers in dense, civilian locations. In that case use them as a beacon a la Skyhook.
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I think every grunt has a GPS these days - so they would ALL have to have flat batteries. And mil-spec GPS that can't take jungle humidity? laugh... again, one of the units would work. Orienteering should still be taught but it isn't as critical as it once was. Too bad, the world feels awful small when you can't get lost in it.
The military is working on inertial systems that take advantage of the fact that one or both boots of a soldier is normally on the ground. Networking a platoons boot heels turns
Re:Young'ns don't understand. (Score:5, Funny)
In my day, we did have maps, but all they were good for was for finding where the world ended and where the giant sea monsters were located.
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You had days????
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God?
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Maps!? Baww! In my day we didn't have maps and we liked it! We found our way by reading the stars!
Stars!? Baww! in my day we didn't have stars and we liked it! We found our way by having everything localized in the same infinitesimal dot!
Spirit of God navigation system (Score:3, Interesting)
Stars? Luxury! When I was a young'n the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
So we had to develop a Spirit of God (SOG) navigation system. And He kept moving over the surface of the waters, which made it even more difficult. This is still in use today, as some US soldiers will tell you that they are assigned to SOG, but are not allowed to tell you exactly what they do.
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I am afraid have to call bs on this one. He might very well have been able to look at the stars and get the direction they needed to go, but he sure as heck couldn't tell where he was with any great resolution.
People spent centuries trying to find a way to use the sky to locate themselves longitudinally and failed for the most part. At best even with the proper instruments and a table of star positions it took hours and had a +/- of 50 miles.
Please see: Longitude: The True Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved
Re:Uh, no. (Score:4, Insightful)
I will make the same comment I make every time we debate technology's superiority to paper:
I cannot remember the last time my map crashed. It may be inaccurate (but so may GPS), it may be out of date (but so may GPS), it may not be intuitive (but so may GPS). But when I turn too fast and pull the plug out of the lighter socket, my paper map will still work. When some jerk is driving next to me with non-FCC licensed equipment drowning out the GPS band, my paper map will still work. It doesn't call out turns a mile ahead, it doesn't show up-to-the-thirty-minutes-ago traffic, all it does is show me where I am and I can use my brain to figure out where I'm going.
A GPS is superior to a map but does not replace it, and becoming reliant on a GPS to the point where I do not consult or bring a paper map is foolhardy.
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A GPS is superior to a map but does not replace it, and becoming reliant on a GPS to the point where I do not consult or bring a paper map is foolhardy.
And this is exactly why society or the economy won't come crashing down if GPS fails. In most cases we can and will switch to less convenient but more reliable tech.
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A GPS is superior to a map but does not replace it, and becoming reliant on a GPS to the point where I do not consult or bring a paper map is foolhardy.
Are you in danger of using a GPS so much you'll forget how to read a map?
Re:Uh, no. (Score:5, Insightful)
I will make the same comment I make every time we debate technology's superiority to paper:
I cannot remember the last time my map crashed. It may be inaccurate (but so may GPS), it may be out of date (but so may GPS), it may not be intuitive (but so may GPS). But when I turn too fast and pull the plug out of the lighter socket, my paper map will still work. When some jerk is driving next to me with non-FCC licensed equipment drowning out the GPS band, my paper map will still work. It doesn't call out turns a mile ahead, it doesn't show up-to-the-thirty-minutes-ago traffic, all it does is show me where I am and I can use my brain to figure out where I'm going.
A GPS is superior to a map but does not replace it, and becoming reliant on a GPS to the point where I do not consult or bring a paper map is foolhardy.
It's obvious that you're part of the group who incorrectly thinks GPS is that magic box which tells you were to aim your car. If you'd read ( and understood ) the article you might have seen this one sentence:
In the U.K., on top of satellite navigation, GNSS is used for data networks, financial systems, shipping and air transport, agriculture, railways and emergency services.
The biggest problem if GPS were disrupted would *not* be hoards of tourists stopping to ask for directions.
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A satnav (which is what you mean, not GPS) safely gives you navigational information whilst driving. A map doesn't unless you have a passenger. You have to stop to safely use a paper map. And that's a problem on a motorway.
For sure, it's a good idea to have a paper map in the glove box in case the satnav lets you down. But so far the satnav has never let me down. Well at least once I worked out that it was best to set it for "fastest" or "most economical", not "shortest".
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A satnav (which is what you mean, not GPS) safely gives you navigational information whilst driving. A map doesn't unless you have a passenger. You have to stop to safely use a paper map. And that's a problem on a motorway.
Satnav is just another way to say "GPS":
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gps [merriam-webster.com]
a navigational system using satellite signals to fix the location of a radio receiver on or above the earth's surface; also : the radio receiver so used
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You need a compass and landmarks to determine where on the map you are. Maps are available both laminated and printed on water proof material. This will also be resistant to tearing. Not every map is like the one you got at disneyland last summer.
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You need a compass and landmarks to determine where on the map you are.
You've grown too reliant on technology if you need the compass.
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No, it is just the next step down, after that you can fall back to stars or just landmarks, etc. Each step back gets you a little less accuracy and easy of use.
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Stars will only give you your latitude, not your longitude. For longitude you also need an accurate time... or a GPS.
And for most parts of the sea there aren't any landmarks.
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A compass and landmarks MIGHT tell you where you are. But most of the time you'll have to travel a bit before the landmarks give you certainty of where you are. GPS will give you your position where you are far more often.
And that goes 100 fold for people at sea.
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I have ridden horses, I have made clothes and probably could make shoes, I have made fires with flint and tinder and the bow method. Why? Because each of those things taught me something, and it was fun to do. Plus I can fall back on it if I have to.
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Oh dear. I think you just put yourself on a terrorist watch list.
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You don't see any problems with becoming reliant on receiving realtime directions while having no personal knowledge of where you are and how to get where you are going?
The person who walked into traffic because the GPS didn't tell them they weren't in a safe area for pedestrians to waltz across the road should be a warning not an example to follow.
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You don't see any problems with becoming reliant on receiving realtime directions while having no personal knowledge of where you are and how to get where you are going?
Not really. If there is a freak occurrence and GOS disappears *and* by chance I don't have a map in the glovebox, then I'll just take a best guess until I find somewhere with a map.
The person who walked into traffic because the GPS didn't tell them they weren't in a safe area for pedestrians to waltz across the road should be a warning not an example to follow.
Lets not pretend it takes a GPS for an idiot to get run over by a truck. WIthout a GPS they are even more likely to find themselves lost on a freeway.
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They key word you used is "assistance". If that's all it is to you, you're fine. I actually rarely use it, even though I have it on my phone. My biggest use is to center the map on my location because that's convenient.
If you don't know how to read a map, or figure out which direction is North, it's no longer "assistance". It's the only method of navigation you understand.
Re:Uh, no. (Score:5, Informative)
The worst part about this is that the solution is not as easy as this article makes it out to be. GPS signals have to be as weak as they are by design- you just can't get much more transmitting power into those satellites, and while LORAN might help, I don't think it has the accuracy either in positioning or in timing that a lot of applications need. It does highlight the necessity for these devices to "fail gracefully" instead of catastrophically though.
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I believe LORAN is gone. The US Coast Guard used to maintain the system worldwide - a friend of mine was stationed at a LORAN station in both Alaska and later in Japan, but they have shut down so many of the stations (if not all of them now) that is it unusable in many placed. If not all of them.
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while LORAN might help
Only via a seance. LORAN is dead. Omega too. Omega was cool. Still have WWVB and WWV out in Colorado.
There is no particular reason why you couldn't re implement GPS using ground mounted atomic clocks and a bunch of towers. Conveniently, we have an infrastructure of cellphone towers neatly mapping with civilization, also providing coverage to big cities.
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Critical infrastructure could just use a more sensitive and precise antenna.
I'm not sure what in the grid would require synchronizing based on GPS. It's not like the stations and control centers ever move.
graceful fail is key, as well as backstopping (Score:2)
All these systems should have a decent local clock to fall back on. Calibrate a local clock based using gps, and they'll be able to go for a long time before degrading significantly.
Re:Uh, no. (Score:5, Informative)
Well, I guess you haven't heard about all of the things that are actually reliant on GPS. Sure, it is used for consumer navigation and that could easily be replaced with a paper map.
But, did you know that the 60Hz synchronization of electrical generation in the US is reliant on GPS clocks? Lose GPS and the synch will drift and this results in disconnecting from the grid. I.e., power failures. I believe the previous synchronization systems were primarily manual tuning which was happily thrown out completely when the GPS clocking was available. No, nobody can go back now. At least not without some pretty significant down time.
And of course we are working up to a aircraft navigation and control system that will be 100% reliant on GPS. No GPS = planes do not take off. Not just passenger planes but also all air cargo.
Ships at sea used to use LORAN but the US Coast Guard has been dismantling the LORAN system they maintained. I believe it is gone now, so there is no going back.
Most of the stratum-1 NTP clocks (keeping the Internet clocks synchronized) are driven from GPS today. Not atomic reference clocks and not radios receiving WWV signals but GPS. Think about how much fun it is to synchronize databases when the system clocks aren't in agreement.
Are you getting the picture? GPS is used for way, way more than consumer navigation in cars. Lose the GPS system and today there is no backup and no possibility of continuing without some pretty major hiccups.
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"that will be 100% reliant on GPS"
no they wont.
There are technical solutions for everything thing you mentioned. In any case they should be implementing them now.
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Except that GPS is used for a bunch of other things, one of the biggies being time synchronisation - it's a cheap easy way to know the time. The basically same story from yesterday linked to http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20202-gps-chaos-how-a-30-box-can-jam-your-life.html?page=1 [newscientist.com] which has this gem:
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What are you trying to argue, that people shouldn't be using tools? One of your distant ancestors could have just as easily claimed that flint knives are just another way to not take responsibility for mammoth killing.
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the engadget pictures speaks for itself
http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/08/early-mid-week-shocker-research-says-we-are-overly-reliant-on-g/ [engadget.com]
I have traveled down some roads which the GPS says are continuous state roads but are closer 4 wheeler trails.
The GPS makes no claim to accuracy of the maps they provide. There is nothing quite like being out in a storm only to find out that the short cut your GPS maps show as roads are really dirt trails.
It happens far to often. It is why I don't rely on GPS. Useful
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That is a problem with the maps you were using not GPS. GPS is Global Positioning System, it just tells you where you are and that is it.
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Well, there you go again trying to inject facts into a perfectly good discussion about why "technology" is to blame.
Say, is there an open source project for creating road maps? Since GPS information is pretty much available for free, and lots of Android devices have GPSes built in, it seems like the wiki approach would be great for this purpose. Of course, it would requi
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Yep, openstreetmap.org.
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http://www.openstreetmap.org/ [openstreetmap.org]
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This is nothing to do with road navigation.
It has everything to do with all the other systems using GPS: the thing that tracks the location of your important parcel, or keeps the "Next train in 5 minutes" indicator accurate, or synchronises the clock on something.
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Phone networks - both landline and mobile - use GPS. Without GPS, there's no way to precisely sync up timeslots in TDMA backhaul.
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Without GPS, there's no way to precisely sync up timeslots in TDMA backhaul.
That sounds a little pessimistic. You mean at this moment there are no deployed time sources that will work.
To keep our morse code circuits aligned (just kidding) we had Cesium clocks, Rb clocks, etc. Cough up the dough and you can have very accurate time.
I'd have to look at the specs, but a really good ovenized xtal might be good enough for TDMA. By really good I don't mean the cheapest dip oscillator money can buy from the cheapest vendor. Think more like the "frequency west bricks" of ye olden days.
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You just made me google "ovenized", "frequency west bricks" and "xtal".
Thanks.
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I don't see how that's a problem exclusive to GPS. You could just as easily be following directions from a gas station map that has the same trail labeled as a state route. GPS didn't invent map errors.
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That's Satnav, not GPS. Regardless of what the sign says.
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What are you trying to argue, that people shouldn't be using tools?
Tools should be used, but assumed to sometimes be fallible. Now live by that and you'll probably be fine. :p
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Yeah, that's a great general rule but it really has nothing to do with GPS.
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Mind repeating that in English?
It is not my first language either, but I have no idea what you are trying to say.
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Thank you
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Geez dude. Maybe you should learn to rely on spellcheck.
"relay" should by rely.
Technology is not capitalized.
"to the thinking way"... I think you left out the word "do".
"to much" should be "too much".
"person" should be "personal".
"responsibly" should be "responsibility".
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Which sentence is missing a full stop? Or am I missing a pun or reference or something?
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We relay (sic) on Technology to [do?] the thinking way to (sic) much these days. GPS is just another way to not take person (sic) responsibly (sic).
Grammar checkers are just another way to not take responsibility for our engrish.
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And your Pole Reversal has zero affect on a Gyrocompass unless you also think that the crust slips when a pole reversal happens, and I hope no one still buys into that hair brained sc
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Re:Yes absolutely (Score:5, Funny)
We used a compass, road map, and a watch, in an open cockpit flying through a snow squall.. at night.. and we liked it!
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I don't see why we ever upgraded from four course radios.
Those [centennialofflight.gov] seem like a clever idea for the time.
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As a backup yes, but the genie is out of the bottle and if the FAA gets its way, you'll see VOR being phased out. What would be interesting is if we could get navigation via CPS, Cell Positioning System. Everyone one of those cell tower out there puts out radio waves. Why not a receiver that can triangulate on multiple towers to determine a position, ADF on steroids. It strikes me that the basic technology is out there to process the signals into a position. The receiver may need to have a database of
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What would be interesting is if we could get navigation via CPS, Cell Positioning System. Everyone one of those cell tower out there puts out radio waves. Why not a receiver that can triangulate on multiple towers to determine a position, ADF on steroids.
Google Maps has used this method of geolocation for phones that lack GPS for a long time now. The problem is that it's not terribly accurate. It's usually sufficient to narrow you down to within a block or so, but not much better than that. It might work for general navigation, but it's not good enough to correctly identify the address of the building you're in, for example.
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"VOR/DME is still the way to go. ADF will get you by in a pinch, but it can throw you a real curve ball sometimes."
Youngsters with their fancy gadgets.
Back in my day we had a Perspex astrodome, a sextant and a compass and we were GRATEFUL for them.