Electromagnetic Automobile Suspension Demonstrated 274
cylonlover writes "Last December at the Future of Electric Vehicles conference in San Jose, a representative from The Netherlands' Eindhoven University of Technology presented research that his institution had been doing into a novel type of electromagnetic vehicle suspension. Now that a test car equipped with the suspension is about to appear at the AutoRAI exhibition in Amsterdam, the university has released some more details about the technology. For starters, it is not only electromagnetic but also active, meaning that it doesn't just mechanically respond to bumps in the road, but is controlled by an onboard computer. It is claimed to improve the overall ride quality of cars by 60 percent." That seems an awfully exact figure — I'm not sure any two people would ever agree even about the exact same car's "overall ride quality."
Supercars (Score:2)
Don't we already have technology like this in many supercars or GTs? Ferrari 599 comes to mind.
Re:Supercars (Score:4, Informative)
Even cars such as my VW Scirocco GT have similar systems (VW calls it Adaptive Chassis Control [volkswagen.co.uk]), it's not the preserve of supercars anymore. However according to the article, existing systems use hydraulic actuators, this system is apparently electromagnetic only, reacts faster and uses less power. Yes, I know, it's almost cheating to RTFA.
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It's a new low for Slashdot when even the submitter hasn't read the article (if he'd read it he'd know how they measured the "60%")
Hint: It's in the paragraph that starts with: "The 60 percent ride improvement figure was obtained when...."
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It wasn't the submitter that hadn't read it, it was Timothy...
Re:Supercars (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Supercars (Score:5, Informative)
Negative. This is not that system. There are a number of cars that let you adjust the shock absorbers on the fly: at the entry level, this involves servos adjusting the shock valving; at the high end (such as the F599) they use electromagnets to adjust the viscosity of the fluid in the shocks, which can be done much faster.
This system is altogether different: there is no shock absorber. They have a linear motor in its place. This gives advanced capabilities that adjustable shocks cannot.
For instance, say you turn hard left. The car wants to lean right. Soft springs are good for comfort, but allow the car to tilt more. This system lets you use soft springs, and then actively counter the body roll by pushing on one side and pulling on the other. The net result is you have the best of both worlds: the smooth ride of a luxury car's soft springs combined with the fast response and stiff anti-roll characteristics of a sports car.
You need a very strong linear actuator to make a meaningful improvement, but those are expensive and require a hefty electrical system to power them, further increasing the price. Bose did some fantastic demos of these some years back, but I don't think they managed to get any manufacturers interested, probably due to cost. Hopefully these guys have improved in that regard.
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The Citroen Xantia Activa used a pair of hydraulic rams to counteract roll forces, as well as the four hydraulic rams that comprise the normal suspension. Apparently they maintain grip to 0.98G lateral force - they certainly can be flung round tight corners much faster than anything with those obsolete old sofa springs at the corners.
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I really like how nobody bothered to RTFA, which is not unusual, but which addresses this point. If the power goes out it still damps, it just doesn't have variable damping.
I understand not reading the fine article before making a comment about something related, but actually bitching about something that ain't even true and which is covered in the article is kneejerk slashbotism.
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I saw an electromagnetic suspension demo'd on the Discovery Channel before many many years ago. It was computer controlled and polled the system thousands of timers per second to look for crests or troughs.
How it faired over a pothole was quite cool as the car stayed level and barely moved, but what really got me in the demo was how it handled a curb. The driver went about 25mph strait into a curb and as the wheels hit the curb, the shocks sensed it and literally pulled the wheels up into the wheel wells an
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I would pay an extra 5k to be able to basically ignore the speedbumps they put up incessantly around here.
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if by 'speed bump' you mean obnoxious bicyclists, then I'll take it!
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Sounds like driving it would suck. Could never feel the road.
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I suspect it's going to be bad if it thinks something is a bump when it's actually the beginning of a steep slope.
There's a limit to how high you can pull up the tires. Once you've got it maxed, and there's still some more "bump" there'd be no more room for shock absorbing...
So I guess a really practical version would either have to have you still feel the bigger bumps when you're going high speed, or have additional sensors to tell the difference between bumps and sl
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Honestly I see this playing out just like any other automotive technology. A few cars will use it, it will be clumsy and unreliable, the manufacturers will learn from from their mistakes and improve on it year after year making it more robust. Within a decade or two it becomes the superior choice to the old system in nearly every asp
Re:Supercars (Score:5, Insightful)
Not true. As cars have gotten more complex, they've also gotten more reliable because electronics allow greater precision and control. Problems per mile has been going down for the entire industry, and the most complex cars (hybrids) are among the most reliable.
Remember carburetors? Mechanical throttle cables? Tune-ups every 3K? Automotive electronics before body computers?
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Mechanical throttle cables?
Yeah, I remember them. When you tap the accelerator, the engine revs in time, with no delay due to slow actuators on the low-mid range end of the market. Our Toyota Matrix pisses me off with this delay. How someone designed this and deemed it acceptable, I do not know.
Friends tell me that their cars (higher end cars) do not have a delay, but without trying it for myself, I can only give them the benefit of the doubt. Give me a throttle cable ANY DAY.
Oh and on topic. Didn't Bose (y
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Actually the electronic throttles are more reliable than cables. Cables have been known to snap, or have the ends come off (which is basically the same thing.)
As to responsiveness, you probably should have bought a car designed for that, rather than the automotive equivalent of a washing machine. My car has an electronic throttle, and I'm sometimes surprised how responsive it is, but it's not a boring transportation appliance like a Toyota. Toyotas are very reliable, but also reliably boring.
The separati
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+1 PosterIsADriver
Re:Supercars (Score:5, Insightful)
Good for, you've got an anecdote. Go back through the years of statistics that the NHTSA maintained on recalls and incidents; Toyota's trouble stirred much of this to the surface and it's easy to find. Note how high SUA issues and recalls were.
You're driving the wrong cars, then. Electronic throttles have been well worked out on, well, just about everything from supercars on down. You'd think that, if mechnical throttles were better that someone---Ferrari, BMW, whomever---would be using them. They're not.
Again, I point to the recent Toyota SUA incidents as a counterpoint. It was proven that most people don't step on the brakes hard enough to overcome the engine, or that they pump the brakes, or that they do something similarly stupid. SUA rates were quite low for cars with brake/throttle override. It's actually a very simple, very elegant idea that works for most people. Oh, sure, it makes heel/toe and left-foot braking harder, but outside of rally drivers that sort of behaviour is asking for trouble.
You're under the impression most people drive on a racetrack. Most people don't.
Yes, that's true. And the "interference with driver decisions" is why road accident and fatality rates are at their lowest ever, despite there being more cars on the road than ever. Half the people on the road are, by default, below average. Most aren't all that skilled. Personally, I'd like to avoid getting hurt because someone isn't 31337 enough to induce just the right amount of wheel lockup to not skid into me, or apply just the perfect amount of opposite-lock.
But they work well for most people under most conditions, allowing them to retain steering control (for ABS) or skidding uncontrollably (ESC). Yes, if you're a rally-racer they should be disabled. Most people aren't. You seem to miss that point
My, aren't we elitist? Look, good for you that you can drive your home-built Caterham at 10/10s on the track and can tear down and rebuild and engine in two hours. I'm glad for you. But you need to realize that most people are not you, and never, ever will be you. So just keep sneering to yourself.
But don't assume that electronics don't make cars more reliable, more efficient, safer, cleaner and faster for 99% of the people out there who don't give a shit about throttle oversteer or adjusting camber between laps. The facts are a) cars have more electronics, and b) those cars are thusly better in every way for everyone who isn't a gearhead.
This thread started because someone offered the usual "Oh noes, more stuff to break!" fallacy which has been proven, time and again, to be utter crap. It wasn't started as debate on automotive purity.
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Oh and on topic. Didn't Bose (yes, the speaker people) already do this before?
Tom...
yes they did [bose.com] Though why anyone would want anything made by that overpriced junk company in their car is beyond me.
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Oh and on topic. Didn't Bose (yes, the speaker people) already do this before?
Tom...
yes they did [bose.com] Though why anyone would want anything made by that overpriced junk company in their car is beyond me.
Maybe because it's where they *started*...
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That delay happens to minimize emissions and maximize fuel economy; my Honda does the same thing. On a car that isn't designed to be an appliance, it doesn't work that way, and some cars allow you to tune throttle response for economy, normal, performance or batshit-crazy driving. Can't do that with a cable.
Throttle cables snap, snag, stick and, if they fail, have no multi-redundant backup, Sudden unintended acceleration (or no acceleration at all) was quite common in the era of mechanical throttle linka
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It is also to buy devices that will allow you to change that peddle feel yourself if the car doesn't come with that feature by default...
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Can do that with cable: Driver decides.
Throttle cables do not snap, snag, stick neither, unless on a maintenance it was damaged, improperly installed or otherwise. Cables are actually extremely durable.
I've seen faulty cables causing snagging, or even getting stuck. But in both cases reason was that it was omitted, and in both cases the owner knew the throttle cable was damaged, so it's actually a car owner fault.
Computers have their places in cars, but interfering with driver input is not one of them.
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I had Benzes from the late 80s and 90s with this throttle delay, where the engine seemed to take a second to respond.
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As others have noted, you should not be driving an economy car if you want excellent throttle response.
Or you might investigate whether a tuner is available. I drive a diesel pickup some of the time, and with 'economy' settings loaded into its computer I can press the accelerator to the floor and it will calmly pull away from a stoplight, but it gets about 22 MPG. If I am pulling something heavy I can tap the 'tow' button on the tuner and add power, but drop mileage to 18 or so. If I want to act like a hill
Throttle cables (Score:2)
The other two times were in my Land Rover Discovery after off-roading. The cable got too dirty and stuck open. In both cases, the solution was to turn the car off, pull over (being careful to avoid steering lock) and free up the cable.
The point is that th
Re:Supercars (Score:4, Interesting)
Mechanical throttle cables?
Yeah, I remember them. When you tap the accelerator, the engine revs in time, with no delay due to slow actuators on the low-mid range end of the market.
You're ignoring the down side to those same cables. Flooding of the carb, back fires, carb damage, excessive gas being dumped and flowing out the exhaust resulting in much more exhaust waste, cooling of the catalytic convertor preventing proper operation. Not to mention, on a lot of vehicles, the inline actuator is part of a safety system which reduces throttle when traction or control is lost. Thusly, for most drivers, direct cable is far more dangerous to everyone.
Basically, it was more reactive because it was so wasteful. Now throttle response follows a consumption and efficiency curve rather than a dump, waste, and foul curve.
If you want a more responsive throttle, simply changing out your air filter can make a big difference; as well as making sure it remains clean. Something like a K&N filter can make for big differences. As can a new exhaust pipe. Basically, on many small displacement engines (really, many engines but especially so on small displacement ICE), their intake and exhaust are artificially restricted; with the intake much more commonly so by the air filter. Remove your air filter and conduct some quick throttle response tests. For many economy cars the difference in throttle response is noteworthy. If this is true for your vehicle, a K&N (or any other high flow filter) can make a big difference.
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Several comments:
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Fuck You. The notion that somebody would reply so rudely astounds me.
Raw fuel heats [auto-repair-help.com] a catalytic converter. When catalytic converters were first put on carbureted engines, this was a common failure point. The fuel ignites in the converter, sometimes melting the catalyst. Some of the early converters used beads as the catalyst. These beads conducted heat poorly to neighboring beads, so they would heat very quickly, melting and eventually plugging the converter. Converters are more robust today, and engi
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See Tata in india (Score:2)
No power windows, locks, A/C, etc. I think it is around 2K as well.
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You can still fix a car on your own, only some of the tools have changed. Most of the mechanical bits are not hard, and inexpensive scanners exist for the ECU. I know guys who tune cars pretty much by ECU hacking only, and it's still entirely possible (and quite common, if you read about all the people with Honda Civics who have dropped B18s or K20s into their ride).
On the flip side, there are tools that, for a modern car, you should generally never need to do because it's done at the ECU level, just as y
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The average desktop computer is an unwieldy behemoth compared to a sleek laptop.
A desktop computer can use standard parts because the specs rarely change. Drives will be 3.5" wide, regardless if its cd/dvd/bluray/hdd. Even SDD, which most adhere to the 2.5" laptop size, will come with railings to get into the 3.5" space.
Makes me think of a hovercraft (Score:2)
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I can't believe the number of people that think the only by-product of fossil fuel is gasoline.
I hate to be a pedant, but you started it :) It's only a fuel if you burn it. Someone can quite rightly say they want a no-fossil fuel vehicle and still use plastic. Cars in particular are very recyclable.
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I disagree: http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS289QmwyzRoJ83kN_yA3tgs1V1KLurfxDOEWSmjDye3CLX7Xm_ [gstatic.com]
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No it wouldn't.
I can build a car that doesn't use fossil fuels. The impact on the environment and cost would just be orders of magnitude worse. IT means all the plastic would not replaces by wood, stone, or leather. The electric engine would be far cruder, the wheels would be wood banded with a metal.
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Bose (Score:4, Informative)
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And lcampagn would still have beaten you by 4 minutes. Sorry.
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I guess you've never heard the stereotype (Score:4, Funny)
That seems an awfully exact figure — I'm not sure any two people would ever agree even about the exact same car's "overall ride quality."
Dutch people have the rough analogue to "perfect pitch" for ride quality. I'm guessing they got to about three significant figures in the study but rounded it off to sound a bit more plausible to the rest of the world. No serious studies have to be done on why exactly Dutch people have this ability, but the current predominant theory among many is that it has something to do with putting mayonnaise on french fries.
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What? Who wouldn't put mayonnaise on french fries?
(assuming they ate french fries, which I no longer do)
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I see you got the joke.
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What I'm more concerned about is: how did they conduct the study? Did the same people ride in both cars? Could te
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I will note though.... 60% isn't terribly exact. 60. is far more exact, as is 60.0
They only reported 1 significant figure!
Finally (Score:2)
a representative from The Netherlands' Eindhoven University of Technology presented research that his institution had been doing into a novel type of electromagnetic vehicle suspension.
Flying cars :)
Bose ... (Score:3)
http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/automotive/bose_suspension/index.jsp [bose.com]
Fine for gas or diesel, (Score:2)
but if I had a hybrid/electric car I'm pretty sure I would rather that electricity go to turning the wheels, not keeping my chassis away from them.
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That's what the spring is for. An electromagnetic "shock absorber" dampens oscillations by collecting the energy as electricity. It is essentially a linear motor run as a generator.
Re:Fine for gas or diesel, (Score:5, Informative)
According to TFA, the system actually draws less power than hydraulic shock systems:
With a peak consumption of 500 watts, the suspension uses about a quarter of the power of hydraulic systems. It also stretches its battery life by using road vibrations to generate electricity. The designers believe that with refinements, the suspension's energy-efficiency could be improved even further.
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They are probably talking about pressurised hydraulic systems. You'd be surprised how much the coffee mug sized hydraulic pump on a hydropneumatic Citroen takes to run - possibly as much as 2hp with a heavy demand on the hydraulics. That said, most of the demand is from the power steering; the brakes use about a tablespoon of fluid every time you press the pedal and once the car is up to normal ride height it only takes a little trickle of fluid to keep it there (usually it'll take two hours for it to set
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Cadillac STS (Score:2)
I have a 2002 Cadillac STS with magnetic ride control. Here is a 2002 press release.
GM's Magnetic Ride Control - The World's Fastest Reacting Suspension
Detroit, Mich. - General Motors took vehicle handling and comfort to a new level with the January introduction of Magnetic Ride Control on the 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, the world's first production car with this leading-edge active suspension.
GM's Magnetic Ride Control is a complete, stand-alone vehicle suspension control system that uses innovative magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators, four wheel-to-body displacement sensors, and an onboard computer to provide real-time, continuous control of vehicle suspension damping.
The system responds in one millisecond to provide superior ride, handling and control on even the roughest road surfaces. Magnetic Ride Control uses a simple combination of sensors, as well as steering wheel and braking inputs from the driver, to reduce noise, vibration and harshness for a smoother ride.
The system's onboard computer reacts to wheel inputs from the road-sensing suspension by sending an electronic signal to coils in each damper, changing the damping fluid's flow properties. This fluid contains randomly dispersed iron particles that, in the presence of a magnetic field, align themselves into structures adopting a near-plastic state. This action regulates the damping properties of the monotube struts, changing up to 1,000 times per second.
The system offers an expanded range of soft-to-firm damping capabilities for increased control over vehicle motions for a flat ride and precise handling. The active suspension helps maintain the maximum amount of tire patch in contact with the road, providing improved wheel control for a safer more secure ride. This new technology also helps reduce the traditional tradeoff between ride and handling.
Magnetic Ride Control is superior to the traditional suspensions and the real-time-damping systems found in other performance and luxury vehicles that use an electromechanical valve to control hydraulic pressure for shock damping.
Engineers at GM Research & Development laboratories, and later with experts at Delphi Automotive Systems, explored ways to reduce or even eliminate the inherent restrictions of valve-based damping systems. The result is GM's revolutionary system that eliminates electro-mechanical valves entirely.
Magnetic Selective Ride Control will debut as standard equipment in the 50th anniversary Chevrolet Corvette for the 2003 model year. That system will feature tour and sport suspension settings. The tour mode, with its extended range of damping capability, is so capable that it alone provides all the control an everyday driver needs. The sport mode, provides an extra measure of control and feel for performance enthusiasts who want to take their cars on track.
This technology yields greater levels of tuning precision and ride quality. Ride and handling engineers developing vehicles with Magnetic Ride Control can spend their time adjusting the algorithms that control the damping responses on a computer, and are enabled to fine-tune ride and handling characteristics to unprecedented levels of specificity. As a result, drivers will notice better ride quality, less body roll and improvements in overall handling.
General Motors , the world's largest vehicle manufacturer, designs, builds and markets cars and trucks worldwide. In 2001, GM earned $1.5 billion on sales of $177.3 billion, excluding special items. It employs about 362,000 people globally.
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Magnetic Ride Control: Fact Sheet
What is Magnetic Ride Control?
Magnetic Ride Control is a complete, stand-alone vehicle suspension control system that uses magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators, four wheel-to-body displacement sensors, and an on-board computer to provide real-time, continuous control of vehicle suspension damping.
How does it work?
Magnetic Ride Control is made possible by the development of magneto-rheological (MR) fluid located inside the monotube shock dampers. The fluid is a suspension of magnetically soft, tiny iron particles in a synthetic hydrocarbon-based solution. The fluid's consistency can be manipulated through the precise application of electronic current, resulting in continuously variable, real-time damping. In fact, the development of MR fluid is so significant that medical researchers have adapted it for use in high-tech prosthetic devices, such artificial knees.
What are its benefits?
The system provides a greatly expanded range of soft to firm damping capability, a truly continuous range of damping settings providing increased control over vehicle motions for a flat ride and more precise handing. The enhanced road-holding capabilities improve wheel control for a safer, more secure ride.
Magnetic Ride Control offers greater roll control and handling during transient maneuvers, and helps reduce noise, vibration and harshness for a smoother ride. This new technology helps reduce the traditional tradeoff between ride and handling, and responds 5 times faster than previous real-time damping systems. In addition, greater reliability is possible with its simpler design.
The 2002 Cadillac Seville STS is the world's first production car with this leading-edge active suspension.
Magnetic Selective Ride Control will debut in 2003 as standard equipment in the 50th anniversary Chevrolet Corvette. The system also will be optional on other 2003 Corvette coupe and convertible models, except the Z06.
A video explaining the tech.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLhC3Em1JrA [youtube.com]
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magneto-rheological fluid-based actuators
The STS-type hydraulic reactive systems are discussed briefly in the article:
While active suspension is nothing new (at least, not for cars), it has previously mainly been integrated into hydraulic systems. According to the Eindhoven researchers, however, hydraulics can't react as quickly as their electromagnetic system, and therefore can't match the smoothness of its ride.
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I couldn't really tell from reading the article what methed they used for damping, other than is was electromagnetic. The Delphi system is electromagnetic in the sense that a coil around the tube of the shock creates a magnetic field that stiffens the the MRH fluid in the shock. It can do that within 1 millisecond, which I would think is sufficiently rapid. If the Eindhoven system is a free floating linear motor, it should be capable of a wider range if dampening though. I am not sure how it would work when
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Bose had something like this (Score:2)
I'll keep my old shocks (Score:2)
I wonder what the price tag would be. Of course, if you never have to replace them that would be a plus.
What I would really like to see is shocks that could generate electricity that recharge the battery in a hybrid/electric vehicle.
It could probably work somewhat akin to those generators that harness power from ocean waves. Not sure how much power you could get from the motion generated by 4 shocks moving a few inches in each direction.
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To the author: (Score:2)
60% improvement will be 60% reduction in body travel compared to stock mechanical suspension under test conditions using body travel as the metric (or some such).
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No two people have an identical opinion in ride quality, and none have the ability (as far as I know) to quantify improvement.
Because if everyone could GM would never be able to sell any Chevrolet vehicles. Look! A car analogy AND flaimbait in the same post.
SHould it have surprised me that the poster (Score:2)
didn't even read the article?
"The 60 percent ride improvement figure was obtained when a single wheel equipped with the system was mounted on a laboratory testbed that simulates road conditions. "
Hindsight (Score:2)
60% figure (Score:2)
My guess is that one of the following number is used:
- average *acceleration change* as felt by passenger,
- average energy transfert in body,
on a standard bumpy road.
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It's pretty simple, you'd define ride quality by how smooth a passenger's travel is. Harsher accelerations would score worse. I wonder what they're comparing it to though, since there obviously can be a vast difference in ride quality in even cars with the same type of suspension, depending on how they're set up.
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"Acceleration experienced by people in the vehicle for a given test drive" would seem to be an adequate measure of the quality of a ride - more bumps, more accelerations, worse ride.
Vertical acceleration (Score:2)
Ride quality = less vertical or sideways acceleration
Just put a device in the chair, where your bottom would normally be, and measure sudden accelerations (shocks). It's quite easy to do.
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Second, "if the batteries should fail, the system will still work as a purely mechanical suspension". FAIL. A mechanical suspension is BOTH a spring AND a damper. If the electromagnetic damper fails, you're headed for trouble.
You left out the context, asshole:
The spring â" appropriately enough â" provides springing action, while the magnets provide passive shock absorption. If the batteries should fail, the system will still work as a purely mechanical suspension.
The article is stupid, and the person who wrote it is stupid, because shocks don't provide shock absorption, but shock damping, which is what the magnets do when the system is not energized. The only thing you lose is the active part of the suspension, which
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In the future, all cars will likely be electric, so if the batteries fail, the suspension will probably be the least of your worries.
Re:Err : "improve the overall RIDE QUALITY by 60% (Score:5, Informative)
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third, RTFM, you douche nozzle.
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Yes, 61.73% would be an "awfully exact" figure, 60% not so much.
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60% is also an awfully believable figure. Usually press releases claim 1,000% or 10,000% improvements.
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It begs the question, 60% of what? "60% of bumpiness removed" and "60% improvement in bumpiness reduction" are completely different.
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If you're shocked by this then you're in for a bumpy ride!
d
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/.'ers will bounce back and spring into action with more puns.
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Put some sort of accelerometer in the car and take measurements with and without the suspension?
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Well, I doubt they've designed an entirely new type of car, so logic presumes they've got an off-the-line model and retrofitted it with their fancy new suspension.
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60% sounds precise? It sounds very imprecise to me. It's a single digit of precision on a scale from 0 to 100, and even then I wouldn't be surprised if their margin of error was as much as 10% in either direction.
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" i can patent billions of ideas that are only in dreamscape yet."
No, you can't. If you can detail them enough to patent them, then do so.
You can't patent 'ideas'.
And yes, many invention comes from America. You are just rooted into your 'belief' and haven't bothered to look.
We develop many innovations; inventions to solve problems with the drones in Afghanistan; New self guided artillery; New battle medic steps to save soldiers life(innovation, not really patentable invention); a pill the takers picture and
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No, you can't. If you can detail them enough to patent them, then do so.
oh of course i can detail them enough to patent them. just like the endless number of patents we reviewed here on this site, i can give vague but seemingly relevant details and construct a whole creation of abomination and patent it. it may totally be unworkable. and then i can came up and sue anyone who is doing anything vaguely resembling it.
this is the way patent system works in america.
as for 'many inventions' coming from america, you are way too invested in the bullshit that your corporations ped
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> Since they offer a figure, they are obviously referring to some kind of metric.
94.5% of all figures have no metric associated with them.