Bullet Train Derails In China 184
chrb writes "Xinhua is reporting that a Chinese bullet train has derailed, resulting in two of the train's coaches falling off a bridge. This comes only a few months after officials at the Railways Ministry expressed concerns that builders had ignored safety standards in the quest to build faster trains in record time — a claim that was subsequently retracted."
Collision (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Collision (Score:4, Funny)
You and your fancy "facts". Go away, we are trying to get a good rant going on the hubris of Chinese industrialization.
Re:Collision (Score:5, Insightful)
or some basic railway safety like a working signal (Score:3)
or some basic railway safety like a working signal system that stops a train on the same track from hitting one in front of it with a block size that gives it time to slow down and or stop before it even gets to the block that the train in front of it is in. Also do they have a treat a black signal as a red one?
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Or the lightning is the new official story because they don't want to admit the train derailed due to shoddy construction caused by rampant corruption.
Need some confirmation of what happened.
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Which brings me to the main problem: I know the Chinese use the European Train Control System and not something a few interns came up with during a coffee break. I can't imagine that the system doesn't default to having all trains come to a full stop, not to mention that the system still uses blocks and the second train should never have gotten the clearance for that block unless the first train had cl
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Presumably, there should have been some kind of safety system in place to deal with a relatively common natural phenomenon...
That's for sure. The Japanese have done well with a much more complex safety issue, rapidly shutting down their high speed trains upon notice from their Earthquake Early Warning system.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Earthquake_Early_Warning_(Japan) [wikimedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen#Safety_record [wikipedia.org]
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2011/03/earthquake-derail-japan-high-speed-trains.php [treehugger.com]
trains use safety systems to prevent collisions (Score:2)
Even if a train stops on the tracks.
At least they are supposed to.
Even though this failure doesn't appear to have anything to do with the previous concerns about cost-cutting on track construction, it does show a huge screw-up that may be attributable to improper safety standards or not following them.
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Yeah... let's see here. Massive earthquake that kills more than 18,000 people in Japan leading to Fukushima (where nobody died due to the meltdown) is incontrovertible proof that capitalism is a complete failure. Meanwhile, a single lightning strike leading to a derailment is an act of God beyond anyone's possible comprehension and China is perfect. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
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Isn't there someone in charge of monitoring the position and speed of every train, and communicating to each train whether they should slow down or stop to avoid a collision? If so, that's the system that failed -- not the trains.
Re:Collision (Score:4, Informative)
The standard system for the US and, as far as I know for most of the world, is called "block signals". These red/amber/green lights show if a train is in the section of track ahead and has been used for over a hundred years. Have the designers in China abandoned this?
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Most high speed rail isn't suing this system, because at high speeds it's not sufficient.
On the other hand, this was a 'normal' train, traveling at speeds where block signals are normally in use.
With a power failure at night, a failed block signal might not be detectable though.
In France the TGVs carry explosives (fireworks, basically) to put on the rails one kilometer ahead of a failed train, to warn the oncoming train of a problem. This requires getting out of the train and one kilometer ahead of it in ti
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You can see a lit flare from quite a bit of distance, several kilometers away usually.
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Curves? Margin of Error?
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"In France the TGVs carry explosives (fireworks, basically) to put on the rails one kilometer ahead of a failed train, to warn the oncoming train of a problem. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator_(railway) [wikipedia.org]
Re:Collision (Score:5, Insightful)
Have the designers in China abandoned this?
No, they just haven't copied it yet.
Re:Collision (Score:5, Informative)
Some slower but WAY busier lines also need to get away with the old block system, in order to reduce the spacing. In Paris, the two primary suburban lines (RER A and B) use what is called 'permissive' spacing, (SACEM on A, KVBP or KCVP on B), in order to reduce space between trains -- SACEM can space trains under 5 meters apart under stressed conditions.
But the key point of these advanced signalling systems is that the train-spacing software MUST be perfect. Not just "bug-free, we tested and deployed and ITIL'd the thing to death" but "mathematically proven bug-free". And even that doesn't cut it. Read up on how the SACEM hardware works, for instance. Or on the "Methode B" used to design the SACEM and the SAET (the latter of which powers automatic lines such as M14 and now M1 in Paris. SAET can safely take even a 110 year-old manually driven train within the robotic shuttle traffic, and get everyone safe there).
Back to China, perhaps the strike broke some communication line, making the position of the stopped train 'unknown'. But if that happened, someone much worse must have happened as well.
Perhaps, by cutting corners everywhere, they've also cut on the provably bug-free programming which one MUST use to build the train-spacing software. THAT, if that happened, is criminal.
Perhaps they've cut corners on brakes. Or whatever.
Hopefully for them, that's a fixable bug....
Re:Collision (Score:4, Interesting)
well, you can. But the cab-signal system also gives you an advantage, as you have a continuous
A missed Square (double-red, absolute stop, whatever it is rendered as in your neck of woods) should trigger an immediate emergency stop of all trains in the vicinity, cab-signal or not, anyway.
<blockquote><blockquote>Some slower but WAY busier lines also need to get away with the old block system, in order to reduce the spacing.</blockquote> <p>Ah, the good old "throw safety out of the window to increase profits" way of managing things.</p></blockquote>
Well, no. The system removes (actually <b>disables</b> unless a non-equipped or faulty train comes) the static, side-mounted block system; <b>replacing</b> it with a dynamic, moving block system. Each train knows where the previous train is, its own speed (obviously) and the speed of the previous. And of course, the brake distances.
SACEM (and the like) computes the safe stopping distance, and can cause everything from slowing down all the way to hitting the brakes, in order to keep the safe distance held.
The "5 meters" (actually, I saw a couple times even closer) obviously can happen only when one train is stopped (in station) and the next train approaches. Nowadays, they've tuned the system with more space, not because it was particularly unsafe, but because it was occasionally freaking out passengers... The damn thing has been working, cramming LOTS of commuter trains daily for 20 years. It's working fine, thank you very much
Now about joining the trains, it might work, until you want to do things such as stop in station or drive fast between the stations...
Obviously, when trains run their 'normal' 70-80km/h, the software spaces them several hundreds of meters apart. AT LEAST (dunno what the emergency braking distance from 80km/h for a MS61 or MI2N is, but the commercial deceleration is enforced).
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Not sure about the rest, but I can think of a few answers to these:
(background: no technical experience in the area, but I've been using New York City's subway system for over 25 years, so a fair amount of 'hands on' watching how they work)
Seeing how this is less than the length of a single train car, why don't you just join the trains?
You can't just join two trains, because you are limited in terms of platform that can accommodate the cars. If your platforms can only accommodate 10 cars, then the longest train you can put on that line is 10 cars (so all doors open at all stations). You can get away w
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You can simply put several signal posts in a row, and read the red/amber/green/blue streak that goes by the cabin.
While you're going at ludicrous speeds, don't forget Doppler.
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Isn't there someone in charge of monitoring the position and speed of every train, and communicating to each train whether they should slow down or stop to avoid a collision? If so, that's the system that failed -- not the trains.
There's an easy way to fix that. Strap a safety engineer, or politician who wants more and faster trains, to the front of every bullet train. I guarantee you that they will find ways to improve the safety and reporting systems.
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how come this never happens in the US? all our train accidents are caused by engineers texting their wives and girlfriends
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There are only ongoing plans to renovate rail sections to accomodate those speeds.
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Why is apologizing for how underwhelming the US rail system a good point?
On another point.. there is a huge problem with high speed rail in developed countries. There is a market for moving people from A to B. Creating highspeed trains will displace planes from that market. Maybe thats a good thing, maybe not. Trains make much more sense if they are time competitive (emissions wise). Although the real issue is you end up with plane routes that are cannabilized and underused rail networks.
So its very possibl
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Why is apologizing for how underwhelming the US rail system a good point?
On another point.. there is a huge problem with high speed rail in developed countries.
You should probably say "in the USA", since the situation is very different in Europe and Japan, and there's no evidence for what will/might happen in North America (or elsewhere).
What tends to happen in Europe is the new high speed train route captures a significant part of the market, although some planes still fly the route, probably with transfer passengers. It should be simple for the airlines to plan for this.
Building anything new (or upgrading something) changes the market, whether that's a new railw
Re:Collision (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, it happened on Washington, DC's Metro system two years ago. A problem with a train proximity sensing system resulted in a failure to engage automatic braking on one train when it approached another train farther ahead that had broken down. In that case, there was evidence that the operator, shortly before her death, had attempted to stop her train manually, but didn't have enough advance warning to stop in time. Eight other people were killed, and in response, WMATA ordered operators to run their trains in manual mode at all times.
alot of them come from have a car on the trackes (Score:2)
alot of them come from have a car on the tracks when the gates are down.
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Texting should be banned for the good of humanity
The same could be said about wives and girlfriends.
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Riiiight, it was a "lightning strike" that caused the problems.
Not like the Chinese would ever release false information to save face or anything, nope, they never do that.
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at least it matches the weather report
http://www.weathercity.com/cn/33/shuangyu/?u=i [weathercity.com]
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why waste a train to get it done?
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To make it more convincing. They're fiendishly cunning, them there inscrutable orientals.
It's *NOT* a bullet train (Score:3)
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Mod parent up. This is the first factual comment in the discussion...
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I use bullet trains as a translation of dongche all the time.
Then you got it wrong all the time. How come you're calling a 200 km/h train a "bullet train"? That's how fast the slow trains are running almost everywhere, it's far from running at bullet speed!
the one in Shanghai is a maglev.
Yup, and it's also called "bullet train", because it's kind of flying in the air thanks to the magnetic levitation, just like a gun bullet also flies... Last time I checked, DongChe are touching the rails!
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And by the way, the only thing you are pointing at is a Google search that shows results about that last event (with subtitle "X hours ago"), with journalists repeating the same crap, probably written by a single (bad) news agency. That's not very helpful...
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Compare to Japan's Bullet Train (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen#Safety_record [wikipedia.org]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen#Safety_record [wikipedia.org]
Definitely a good comparison.
This is obviously a big tragedy, many lives were lost. But it's hard not to see something symbolic in this as well - China's economy moving forward too fast, ignoring safety warnings, and ending in catastrophe. That last part hasn't happened yet, but the first has, and more and more people are starting to worry about some sort of bust. Hopefully that won't happen, but if it does, this train derailment may end up as a metaphor in the history books.
Re:Compare to Japan's Bullet Train (Score:5, Informative)
Contrary to the South Park episode, Japan and China are in fact two different countries
Lightning involved (Score:5, Insightful)
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Automated control system and/or safety checks failure, most likely - at that speed manual braking is useless (by the time you have visual on the obstacle it's too late to brake). The automated control system should have detected that one train was no longer moving or no longer in contact and should have slowed down/halted all other trains on the same track approaching the area.
Re:Lightning involved (Score:5, Insightful)
It was proposed (by Siemens Signals gmbh) that a modified TVM430 system be used in China. This is what is used on the more modern TGV lines in France. It was rejected by the Chinese Railways as being too expensive so they came up with their own.
The TVM430 uses a moving block system. This means that this accident could never have happened. This system leaves at least one complete signal section between trains. The sections are also long enough for a SPAD (signal passed at danger) that will cause an application of the brakes to AUTOMATICALLY happen to stop the train from well in excess of the normal line speed before it would slam into the back of the train that was stopped on the line.
If my experience with the Chinese Bullet train lines is anything to go by, the phrase 'held together by duck tape' seems very apt.
The trains themeselves might be good but the PW (Permanent Way) is very sub standard. The last time I travelled on one the ride quality remined me of the line from Euston to Rugby in the 1980's. Think bucking bronco.
This was an accident waiting to happen.
Anon, ex staffer with Westinghouse/Siemens Signal Systems (UK) but still employed in the Railway Business.
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More to the point, no matter the reason, a reasonable safety system wouldn't allow 2 trains to come together. That has been part of railroad design for over a century.
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That has been part of railroad design for over a century.
That explains why there have been 0 train collisions in the west for almost a hundred years!
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There have been very few considering the amount of rail traffic, and it certainly takes a lot more than one train coming to an unplanned stop to cause it.
Any that have happened eventually come down to understaffed and over cheaped maintenance.
the railway signal system should do something (Score:2)
the railway signal system should do something but the driver may be under presser to go as fast as they can and not stop.
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When the train and track got struck it probably knocked out all power on the train. It may also have knocked out telemetry on the track. No power for the radio, no telemetry and the train just disappears from the control display. Even if they have a backup battery radio they have to find it, call in, identify their train, and identify their location. That takes time. In that time the train behind them could have been too close to stop.
Passenger trains are not freight trains in that passenger trains are much
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If losing contact causes a train to disappear from the control display then the system is broken by design.
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How hard do you think it is to stop a powerless bullet train? I'm imagining that they have numerous power-assist and servo systems, pulling on the manual brake lever is probably an act of futility, as likely to stop the train by derailment as not.
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Lightning "protection" is always engineered into projects of this scale, whatever type of project it may be. Much of it consists of good and pervasive grounding (which should be easy on a train, almost by default), along with transient voltage suppression (which generally relies on good grounding). Sometimes, more active elements are used (lightning rods, which is a whole school of practice unto itself).
But, you know: Shit happens.
As we say in the RF world: Lightning goes where it wants to.
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Interesting. So does that mean it is impossible to make something lightening strike proof? What I mean is that in any lighting protection system, there will always be some weird or unexpected failure mode that is not humanly possible to protect against?
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The problem here is just like most other problems in the real world: Do you cover 90% of the cases for 10% of the "100% case" cost; or do you go higher?
And even then, the 100% case doesn't exist but on paper.
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Yes. Always.
Design difference with TGV (Score:5, Interesting)
My cynical nature seems to be not surprised about "that builders had ignored safety standards", in China.
One thing that should be mentioned is looking at the photos of the Chinese bullet train, is that the design did not inspire itself on one of the key advantages of the French TGV. That advantage being that the bogies are between the carriages and not under each carriage. Apparently the French designed it that way because it reduces the scope of damage due to derailment. The TGV has derailed, but it always derails in a straight line.
ref: Nova: Looking down the track at very fast trains [science.org.au]
Re:Design difference with TGV (Score:5, Interesting)
And it works incredibly well. The TGV had several high speed derailment that all caused only minor injuries.
It includes the world's fastest derailment at 294kph (182mph) where only one person was slightly injured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_accidents [wikipedia.org]
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Our bosses say, "We need 60 hours of work in the next three days" "we really don't want to burn out our employes so make sure we take care of them".
They are in the clear-- it's just not possible to achieve the goals without working nights and weekends.
I'm sure the chinese do the same thing.
We want TOP quality in LESS time for NOT ENOUGH money.
It's the usual "choose 2 of three option".
11 Dead. Missing from summary (Score:3)
At least 11 people have died and 89 people injured
You would think this important information would be in the summary to give perspective on the disaster.
Re:11 Dead. Missing from summary (Score:4, Informative)
At least 11 people have died and 89 people injured
You would think this important information would be in the summary to give perspective on the disaster.
The number of deaths isn't what makes it interesting to Slashdot -- the Oslo shooting + bombing (rightly) didn't get reported here. This derailment leads to a discussion of safety standards of high-tech systems, especially in emerging countries, and how technology could have prevented or caused the crash, hence it's newsworthiness.
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Yes, it was. [slashdot.org] In fact, at least one slashdotter was nearby when the bomb went off. [slashdot.org]
Maybe this will lead to new standards (or maybe, they'll pay better attention to the old ones) but those standards exist to protect people. The GP was right - the summary could have been a little more helpful in describing the extent of the tragedy.
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That's bunk. Technology is also used to reduce the number of fatalities.
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But the Oslo bombing did get reported on Slashdot: http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/07/22/1556211/Terror-Attack-On-Norwegian-Government [slashdot.org]
I think it would have been good to mention the fatalities. It adds a whole another scope to the story, from just a equipment malfunction to something far more serious (lives were lost due to it). That's just my opinion though.
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The number of deaths isn't what makes it interesting to Slashdot -- the Oslo shooting + bombing (rightly) didn't get reported here.
You'd have a point, if it weren't for the extensive reporting of Columbine, 9/11, et al.
Not a "bullet" train (Score:3, Informative)
From TFA:
Feh. Amtrak, and even some commuter trains in the Northeast, routinely exceed 110-125mph.
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But is that "average speed" ?
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mod parent up
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African or European?
Re:Not a "bullet" train (Score:5, Informative)
From TFA:
Feh. Amtrak, and even some commuter trains in the Northeast, routinely exceed 110-125mph.
Commuter trains in the UK tend to go upto 110mph, but average nearer 50-60. Eurostar from London to Paris peaks at 186mph (186.1 according to the iphone gps), but only averages 136mph.
The Acela Express might peak at 150, but it averages 70mph.
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"Commuter trains in the UK tend to go upto 110mph, but average nearer 50-60. Eurostar from London to Paris peaks at 186mph (186.1 according to the iphone gps), but only averages 136mph."
Eurostar is a french Alstom train ;);) , its average speed between London and UK is 175 kmph.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Eurostar---Catching-Train-to-Paris&id=6357394
Not any more, that might have been the speed when it went into Waterloo.
1) London is in the UK
2) Paris to London takes 2h15. The journey is 307 miles. That's 136mph, or 219kph.
3) Brussels to London, 232 miles, takes 1h55. That's 121mph, or 195kph.
The average speed includes the slow 31 miles in the tunnel at about 90mph.
http://www.seat61.com/London-to-Paris-by-train.htm [seat61.com]
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Collision and *then* derailment. (Score:3)
The reports currently are that the train cars detailed because of a collision, not because they were simply going too fast and took a sharp turn on faulty rails. Can you really expect cars to remain on the tracks after a collision?
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The reports currently are that the train cars detailed because of a collision, not because they were simply going too fast and took a sharp turn on faulty rails. Can you really expect cars to remain on the tracks after a collision?
If you use strong enough magnets...
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No but I can expect a rail control system that prevents something as simple as a train running up the back of another train.
Not a complex network with multiple tracks and one train switching to the wrong track. Not a case of a train colliding with another object on the track. Just one train moving on one track ran up the back of another train not moving on the same track.
Well I guess they're safe now (Score:1)
Everyone knows lightning never strikes the same train twice.
subsequently "retracted" ?! (Score:4, Insightful)
No, a "retraction" means taking back, by the original commentators. In this case, some other official merely denied the claims of the whistleblower.
Signaling system by Hollysys (Score:5, Interesting)
Hollysys [hollysys.com.sg] claims to be the main supplier of signalling and train protection equipment for China's high speed rail lines. There are two separate systems - classic track circuits, and a data link between units at the head and tail of each train to a train control center. Either is normally able to prevent collisions. However, in a power failure, the data link system would probably not be functioning. The track circuit system should continue to work on battery power, or, if that fails, indicate STOP.
Track circuit failures resulting in a false proceed signal are rare, but have occurred. The WMATA transit crash in Washington, D.C. was due to a track circuit failure. The US Federal Railroad Administration keeps records of all reported false proceed signals. [ironwoodtech.com] There have been two recorded events in 10 years of false proceed indications due to lightning damage. [ironwoodtech.com]
The nature of failure (Score:2)
You would think these safety systems should be virtually fail-safe.
But then there wouldn't be Fukushima I guess.
You can design systems to be fail-safe all day long, but eventually nature has a lot more fail to offer than you can every reasonably design for.
That was true for Fukushima (which survived way more than it was designed to handle, resulting in only minor radiations leaks) . And it may be true for this situation as well, if we find the lightning led to a false proceed signal.
It does seem like it mu
Bad summary (Score:2)
I don't like the summary - from the article: A Chinese high-speed train derailed Saturday when it was hit by another express, state media said, throwing two carriages off a viaduct and killing at least 16 people.
Still I don't understand all the details of the situation.
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I don't like the summary - from the article: A Chinese high-speed train derailed Saturday when it was hit by another express, state media said, throwing two carriages off a viaduct and killing at least 16 people.
When I wrote the summary a few hours ago the information regarding a lightning strike and collision was not available.
Good thing this will never happen here! (Score:2)
I am certainly glad that here in the United States of America, blessed by God and common sense, that we will never experience a tragedy of this magnitude. Thanks to our sensible legislators and their neverending compassion for the people whose livelihood depends on the exploration, excavation, processing, shipping, and selling of fossil fuels, we will never have to see one of these "bullet" trains derail in this country! Our citizens will remain safe! Why, the very name of these things, a "bullet" train, br
Patronizing much? (Score:2)
I see a flood of patronizing posts and many of them xenophobic. Look, I'm not crazy about the Chinese regime/economic system (or the US regime/economic system), but train accidents occur all the time and even in the most "superior" societies. Here are some derailments in the last decade involving injuries.
Hatfield, UK, 2000, 4 dead, 70+ injured - exposed sloppiness in privatized infrastructure and poor oversight.
Potters Bar, UK, 2002, 7 dead, 76 injured - poor maintenance.
Waterfall, Australia, 2003, 7 dea
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Err... one of the incidents you mentioned occurred in china, and not only was it worse than the others put together, it doesn't even have a firm fatalities figure (70+, wtf kind of lack of transparency is that?).
You're not exactly helping your point.
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Not a single one in Japan...
In news nobody wrote or cared about ... (Score:2)
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Shhhhh! Don't give those cheap bastards at Ryanair any ideas.
CTCS Chinese Train Control System? (Score:2)
For high-speed trains they pass the signals too fast for the drivers to see so they rely on computer control. Trains are supposed to communicate so if one in front stops or slows the other behind it knows whe
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The Siemens trains sold in Melbourne had shoddy brakes among other problems, yet I see cars and other shit advertised as "German engineered" on TV.
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At least they had brakes.
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Yes, quite odd that two similar stories pop up like that. We've got a horrible trainwreck that will result in a media circus, and a train crashed as well.
What about Japan then? 45 yrs, no accidents... (Score:2)
How does your argument stand up when looking at Japan, which has had bullet trains for 47 years and no fatalities? (state run for the first 23 years and no accidents then)