GNOME and KDE Devs Wrangle Over 'System Settings' Name 289
An anonymous reader writes "The developer of the KDE System Settings application has launched a formal complaint against GNOME for renaming 'Control Center' to 'System Settings' in GNOME 3.0. This developer is demanding that GNOME immediately change the name of their control panel area. Developers on both sides are now discussing this act."
This is ridiculous! (Score:3, Insightful)
Seems both KDE and Gnome are making themselves irrelevant. Switched to XFCE, not going back.
Re:This is ridiculous! (Score:5, Interesting)
[2]
No, really, this is ridiculous
KDE for breaking and rebuilding everything, while making it half-assed.
Gnome for dumbing-things down excessively (we may call it 'retarding-it-down')
Switched to XFCE. Next computer is going to be from that company from Cupertino
This whole kind of idiocy is why we can't have nice things...
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I'm sorry, KDE is far from half-assed now, it might have been unstable back in the days of KDE 4.0.x
I'm using 4.6.5 on Arch Linux right now, and it's even more stable than GNOME 3.0, I know it should be, but yet again, 4.6.5 is the latest stable release, it hasn't been tested that thoroughly, either
Not to mention that Arch is known to be bleeding edge, so it's not the most stable distro around.
So yeah, I chose to go with KDE, at least for now, it's more reliable and customizable than GNOME 3.0.
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True, I like(d) KDE, last time I tried it was 4.2 IIRC
Also, there's an issue with distros not properly supporting it. Even Kubuntu is so-so.
I LOVED KDE 3, KDE 4, even without the problems, I'm not a huge fan
But it's KDE anytime over Gnome. And what I like about XFCE is that it keeps the customization aspects of KDE while being lightweight.
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Oh, KDE 4.6 (and upcomming 4.7) are miles ahead of 4.2. After all, it is 2.5 years of development since you last checked...
Free software is not like closed source, it moves continuously: there is no particular incentive for big releases which mpres customers. But the progress accumulates just the same.
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KDE4 is currently much better than it was, but it's not yet as good as Gnome2, much less as good as KDE3.x. I'm not, however, saying that it isn't better than Gnome3 will be. Early appearances are that it's better.
Whether I'll switch back the KDE4, or switch to LXDE when Gnome2 is withdrawn is not something I've decided upon. Maybe there'll be a successful revival of KDE3. (I know it's being worked on. The last time I looked, the repositories weren't working.)
Re:This is ridiculous! (Score:4, Funny)
No, really, this is ridiculous
They're just following the Microsoft model of renaming/moving everything just when you get to know where things are and what they're called.
Microsoft spends millions of $$$ a year on usability studies so it must be the correct thing to do.
Re:This is ridiculous! (Score:5, Insightful)
When you get to the phase where your new features all involve renaming things, rounding corners, or improving "user experience" then you know it's done and you should pick a new project to work on.
I'm sort of serious here. Early on in a project there are lots of important changes and each release has some big improvements. Later on though the devs/company wants to keep up having recent releases so they start reaching deep in the barrel to find things to keep the feature list full.
Creating something great requires two people (Score:4, Insightful)
When you get to the phase where your new features all involve renaming things, rounding corners, or improving "user experience" then you know it's done and you should pick a new project to work on.
My wife spent some time in serious art-school mode. One of the profs that she greatly respected told her that making great art requires two people -- 1) the person capable of making the piece, and 2) someone else to shoot the first person when they're done. This is because most folks can't leave well enough alone and keep futzing until what was great (or at least on the cusp of it) is munged beyond the pale.
It does indeed look like at least some of the Linux DEs are at the "shoot the artist" stage.
Cheers,
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2) someone else to shoot the first person when they're done.
Oh, an editor.
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It does indeed look like at least some of the Linux DEs are at the "shoot the artist" stage.
Gnome is well past that point. And Unity either hasn't reached it, or was there before it started.
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[2]
No, really, this is ridiculous
No, really, it's worse than ridiculous. KDE shouldn't be calling their's "System Setting" either:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=199326 [kde.org]
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Next computer is going to be from that company from Cupertino
I did the same thing about six years ago. Frankly, even then it was obvious that F/OSS on the desktop was going to be in a constant catch-up with Microsoft (who themselves are frequently in a catch-up with Apple) - and I was no longer prepared to spend ages messing around because the Latest Greatest Distro has so many bugs (however minor) that I have to spend hours fighting with it.
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Next computer is going to be from that company from Cupertino
I did the same thing about six years ago. Frankly, even then it was obvious that F/OSS on the desktop was going to be in a constant catch-up with Microsoft...
That's odd, your experience apparently does not mirror mine. From time to time I run a Microsoft PC and these days it always feels like slumming compared to my KDE/Linux experience. Why does Microsoft think it is a good idea to end your scroll drag if you happen to drift more than X pixels to the side of the scroll bar? And what is this double clicking nonsense? I don't have to double click on a web link, why should starting an application be different? There are so many little issues of fit and finish like
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That's odd, your experience apparently does not mirror mine. From time to time I run a Microsoft PC and these days it always feels like slumming compared to my KDE/Linux experience. Why does Microsoft think it is a good idea to end your scroll drag if you happen to drift more than X pixels to the side of the scroll bar? And what is this double clicking nonsense?
This was a few years ago, and TBH it wasn't the polish of the desktop environment itself that pushed me. It was the fact that (at the time at least) it didn't take very much work to turn yourself into a corner case that was poorly supported and even more poorly tested. Multi-monitor support was dire, if I bought a modern inkjet printer I'd typically have to wait 6-12 months for it to get good support (which is a PITA when your average inkjet is only on the market for 12 months or so). There was no single ev
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That's odd, your experience apparently does not mirror mine. From time to time I run a Microsoft PC and these days it always feels like slumming compared to my KDE/Linux experience. Why does Microsoft think it is a good idea to end your scroll drag if you happen to drift more than X pixels to the side of the scroll bar? And what is this double clicking nonsense?
This was a few years ago, and TBH it wasn't the polish of the desktop environment itself that pushed me. It was the fact that (at the time at least) it didn't take very much work to turn yourself into a corner case that was poorly supported and even more poorly tested. Multi-monitor support was dire, if I bought a modern inkjet printer I'd typically have to wait 6-12 months for it to get good support (which is a PITA when your average inkjet is only on the market for 12 months or so). There was no single event that pushed me, it was more a "death by a thousand cuts" kind of thing that eventually led to me saying "Enough! If I'm going to battle with a desktop OS, I'm going to be paid for it!"
YMMV and all that.
Indeed, my mileage does vary, I enjoy not having to put in a driver disk to install a printer. My printer experience on Linux lately has been that you plug in the USB cable to whatever printer, new or old, and it prints. And you can generally expect printing to continue to work properly even after many years of system updates. No doubt there are exceptions to this rule, I just haven't hit any recently. And Windows PCs are hardly immune from printer problems [google.com].
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Oh, these things all worked in basic terms, that wasn't the issue. But you don't buy a fancy photo printer that is sold with the ability to print on CDs and right to the edge of the paper for fun.
Those features - minor though they are - simply did not exist on Linux at the time. The "print on CDs" feature was only implemented by sheer chance when someone pointed out that Epson had re-used a well-known command to instruct the printer to load the CD tray.
Upshot: Yes, you can get basic functionality on Linux q
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I was using printers as an example; there were plenty of other issues. You've got to bear in mind this was 2005; VPNs (as a remotely-connecting desktop user), USB thumb drives and multi-monitor support are the biggest that immediately spring to mind. I know for a fact that USB thumb drives are much better supported today, but back then most desktop environments had dire support for unmounting removable media - I had to write my own script that would deal with it and put an icon on the desktop. I managed to
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Multi-monitor support was dire,
It still is. It's a shame that if I want to use two monitors and screen locking, I can't run Gnome. Because each display reports non-use separately, so in the middle of typing a document, if I bump the mouse over to the other display, the screen saver locks both of them, due to one of them not having been used for a while.
Then there's gdm and the login prompt that doesn't see the monitors in the same order as the desktop does. Makes for some interesting mousing, especially with four monitors.
Oh, and like
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"This whole kind of idiocy is why we can't have nice things..."
XFCE _IS_ nice!
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"This whole kind of idiocy is why we can't have nice things..."
XFCE _IS_ nice!
Agree 100%! Using XFCE right now!
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Next computer is going to be from that company from Cupertino
Yeah. Because Apple would never dumb down their interface for 25+ years with a one-button mouse.
Or have the police kick in the front door of a journalist. [macrumors.com]
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Next computer is going to be from that company from Cupertino
Yeah. Because Apple would never dumb down their interface for 25+ years with a one-button mouse.
Let's go for a car Analogy
Windows is like driving an automatic transmission car
KDE is like driving a manual transmission car
Apple is like driving a car with a joystick and buttons instead of a wheel and pedals
Gnome is like a manual transmission car, without the stick, clutch or brakes
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e17 ftw. :) Lighter than XFCE, even more customizable. Don't regret installing it for a moment. :)
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Lighter? What, does it make my laptop weigh less? What does that even mean anymore?
Re:This is ridiculous! (Score:5, Funny)
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There's that word again; "lighter". Why are things so much lighter in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull?
You'll know in 1986,
I can't believe that nobody got the BttF quote!
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There's that word again; "lighter". Why are things so much lighter in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull?
Wrong "lighter" -- They're talking the portable device that "can summon up fire without flint or tinder."
"This new battery makes my laptop lighter." Which is to say: The battery is now responsible for the device's spontaneous combustion capabilities.
Software that is very flawed can contribute to overheating, really bad code (especially in firmware) may cause a meltdown or small lap flame.
I'm positive that widespread pyromania is responsible for the term's proliferation and mistaken "positive" connota
Re:This is ridiculous! (Score:4, Interesting)
go get a early pentium4 with 512 megs of ram, run gnome and then run xfce (try your best to not infect it with too many gnome libs) you will see what lighter means instantly
on a much more extreme example take my powermac 9600/300. yea its slow but perfectly usable in xfce, in fact I had to use it for a couple weeks when my main desktop took a dump, uses half of its 256 megs of memory and suits its needs as both a daily electronics bench machine and retro computer (its 14 years old). I installed *something* that installed and started a gnome process and it doubled the boot time and left me with like 3% free memory, then failed to load the application.
Re:This is ridiculous! (Score:5, Interesting)
It's the politically correct term for "not so damned fat and bloated", although "leaner" might be more PC.
I thought it was silly too until I rtfa. KDE is right, it will cause problems for folks using both.
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It makes your laptop weigh less. That's simple enough to understand. You see as we spend more and more time computing, even to the point where we are carrying out laptops out of our cubicles to our homes, working on weekends and vacations, we start to lose more and more muscle mass. So the lighter laptops are required in order to keep us slaving away.
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Re:This is ridiculous! (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to say that XFCE is getting mighty fat recently - it is no fun on an old PC or even in a virtual machine. Which means that I am moving on to LXDE - it does just what I want, and it does it quickly.
Is there a law that says software has to get fat over time? Because that is surely the way it is going. KDE 1.0 was pretty light at some point, and up to KDE 3 it worked well in a virtual machine. I guess I could always use trinity instead - but then again I really like okular over kpdf...
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Is there a law that says software has to get fat over time?
Yes, it's the natural order of software. "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have feature X?" And usually the answer is "yes", at least for a large enough number of people. Repeat that over enough years and your software will become bloated.
The cycle starts anew when the bloat becomes too much, and people flock to a lightweight competitor.
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This is ridiculous!
Of course it is. Even I know to use mv to rename something in Linux.
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XFCE feels heavy when you have a lot of gnome tie in. I'm running gentoo with "-gnome -kde -qt -qt4" in my USE flags. None of the gnome/kde cruft. Granted I like gnome-screensaver better than xscreensaver, but ohh well.
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It's fully functional and lightweight, the way a DE should be IMHO.
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I disagree. Competition is good, and it gives more ground for implementing different ideas and choosing the best.
Freedesktop is enough as a common ground.
Really? (Score:2)
Re:Really? (Score:5, Informative)
RTFA. The real issue is that duplicating the name is causing system conflicts for those with both installed.
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Then why not instead make it so having both installed with the same name doesn't matter...? I can think of a few easy fixes and my day job is not programming... Instead they want to act like three year olds, which frankly is silly.
Two menu items with the same name (Score:5, Informative)
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The easiest solution is to add a check on the area your using (whether this is on disk or in memory) and see if what you want is actually there. Not being a programmer I can't tell where specifically they currently overlap, but adding checks to verify the state of something is 101 level comp sci stuff I learned back with basic in high school.
In the worst case were they directly are overwriting the same data and messing everything up a small utility which can even separate the settings by app within the same
Re:Two menu items with the same name (Score:5, Informative)
That is precisely how they decided to solve it [gnome.org], to everyone's satisfaction [gnome.org]. Nothing to see here anymore, move along.
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It really depends on how and where they conflict. For example, if both insist on using the same directory name in the same menu/subdirectory, it might not be easily resolvable. There could be cases that would require one of the projects to change names of file, directories, menus, whatever. "Fixing" it without either side changing anything in their own projects could require a lot lower level fundamental changes to other areas.
And since you're right, they are both acting like 3 year olds, I doubt those w
it's a feature (Score:2)
The developers probably don't see that as a problem; it's something like an "unpermitted use case", which is code for something they'd never do, hence nobody else should.
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RTFA. The real issue is that duplicating the name is causing system conflicts for those with both installed.
Aha! So the true culprit is Linux, for not providing a proper namespace mechanism.
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The real problem is themselves, for not providing a menu system that allows for any other environment to be simultaneously installed.
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Not so much Linux, the kernel knows nothing about these files. The structure they are using to specify menu entries is specified by freedesktop.org, who are suppose to provide specifications for ensuring desktop environments are compatible so in a sense it's their fault. Suddenly the Windows pseudo-standard of CompanyName -> Application Name makes a little more sense.
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I read the article and the thread. There is a perfectly good solution presented and that would be to use the OnlyShowIn option on the .desktop files. That option was created specifically to handle situations like these and it would be proper to utilize them.
While the KDE side would like to see different names as their form of distinction, I would argue that it is actually more advantageous that the names be identical to help the user when switching between KDE and GNOME. As pointed out, having two simila
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RTFA. The real issue is that duplicating the name is causing system conflicts for those with both installed.
Nor is this the first time something like this has happened between KDE and Gnome:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=632044 [gnome.org]
Yeah... (Score:2)
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This is definitely something worth arguing about.
You're right, as I DO use both kde and gnome. One does say System Settings, the other is Control Center. Hence, I've run into the same situation with "screensaver: which now I have 2 entries, both of which are identical, but alas, click the wrong one, and it asks you if you want to shut down gnome. What a pity that Gnome & KDE devs have to act like a couple of kids in a sandbox, and you stole my toy.
Re:Yeah... (Score:5, Funny)
seems to be about a name clash (Score:2)
If that's the case it's a bit ridiculous. Maybe it'd be good to add some kind of namespace system.
Anyway...this doesn't deserve to be on slashdot front page.
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Anyway...this doesn't deserve to be on slashdot front page.
Slashdot is "New for Nerds", right? Can you think of anything more nerdish?
Re:seems to be about a name clash (Score:5, Insightful)
Uhh, I also comes from a long background of GNOME ignoring KDE, and acting as though they exist in a vaccuum. Also, they knew about the naming issue.
So the guy has reasons to be miffed: GNOME, at this stage lives in a bizzare delusion that they are an OS, and not just a DE. And this attitude is clearly grating: they seem to believe that what they do is the standard, and that probably KDE is something like windowsblind is (was?) for MS windows. And of course, the KDE dev have stopped assuming good faith, because their is none.
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Yeah, the KDE developers have spent a lot of time chasing after compatibility with Gnome's latest NIH ideas (badly thought out new methods of hadling system tray items, changing how to handle shutdowns every other release...)
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I agree completely. If I got a childish E-mail like that from a co-worker about a project I'm working on, I'd be pretty astounded. Totally unprofessional.
Naming conventions (Score:2)
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No, that's a different problem. That problem is that you're searching for the name of the thing you want directly, rather than a tag, or a word IN the name of the thing you want.
If your files and panels and whatnot are indexed properly, then when you search for network, you get all of the network related panels, and when you search for network settings, it doesn't just search for the string "network settings" but for all of the panels tagged, "network" which are also tagged, "settings." or have both word
call FreeDesktop.org? (Score:2)
Are the requirements so different that the KDE and GNOME guys can't work together to establish a common framework that would work well for both of them, and free up some additional cycles, say for keeping virtuoso from filling up the disk with .xsession errors or making GNOME 3 more configurable?
Where is the conflict? (Score:2)
Can somebody explain where exactly there is a conflict? Which namespaces are affected? dbus, /usr/bin/*, package names, .desktop files? "System Settings" as a name sounds perfectly fine and it makes perfect sense to name it that way for both environments, because it is a similar tool for the same job. Wouldn't the proper solution for this simply be to name the thing gsystem-setting and the other ksystem-settings and just label the menu entry "System Settings" depending on what DE you are currently running?
Gridiculous Klaims! (Score:2)
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cause kde wants it THEIR way, and gnome wants it THEIR way
frankly I dont see the problem, kde has historically had most of its software listed with a K in front, why change it
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Is there lightweight DE using QT4? I'd consider dumping GTK if there was something like XFCE on that side. I generally think that QT4 looks much nicer than GTK2. KDE is just to huge, and has all sorts of bells and whistles that I don't need. A special web browser, a music client, etc etc etc.
Let me get it right. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem seems to be that duplicate names for different entries in menus on common distributions seem not be be correctly handled and the fix for this is not to go the consistent way (the same things are named in the same way) and fix the functions which create the menus (like detecting duplicate entries and attaching an indication of the package name in the entry), but to plainly forbid to name entries in the same way?
I dont like that. This is not the year of the linux desktop.
it's about name collision concerns (Score:2)
if you have an application named "System Settings" in both gnome and kde, you are going to have conflicts when both window managers are installed on the system. I'm not exactly certain how, but processes may confuse one for the other; it's just really bad practice to have two applications named the same anyhow. even if they *are* seperate distros.
Kontrol Kenter (Score:2)
Stupid design (Score:3)
It seems to be simply egregiously arrogant design for two session managers to insist on appropriating exactly the same part of this environment for themselves. That's like the C compiler insisting on using JAVA_HOME for some special purpose of its own.
Am I missing something fundamental here? Because I have found both Gnome and KDE to be a step backwards in terms of true ease of use and configurability compared to much simpler predecessors like twm. I can't even change the root cursor color. Pathetic.
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I can't even change the root cursor color. Pathetic.
Wow, what an important feature. The GNOME (and KDE) devs should stop adding features like on-screen-keyboard support in GNOME Shell, truly rounded window corners, and complete chat integration in the shell to focus on what's obviously more important: an option to change the root cursor color.
Does it really matter that much? On a scale of "Pointless" to "Absolutely necessary", it ranks just below "It'd be nice to have". Of all the features users and developers really want, it's pretty low on most peoples' li
A modest solution (Score:2)
KDE should rename their Settings application to a unique string like: 'KDE Settings GnomeAreJerks' or 'Settings for KDE-is-better-than-GNOME'.
That solves the name conflict and underlying problems in one fell swoop.
Good grief... (Score:2)
Why not [Gnome|KDE|Xfce|etc.] System Settings? (Score:2)
I have Gnome 2, Unity, Xfce, and LXDE all on my home Linux workstation.
Due to having these 4 DEs on one box, my "Settings" menu is a bit cluttered. For example, the Gnome 2 settings options appear on my Xfce's Settings menu.
Why not just preface all their settings with their name? Such as "KDE System Settings", "Gnome System Settings", "Xfce System Settings", and so forth? That way it is more apparent which settings belongs to which DE, and as an added bonus if using alphabetical sort then each DE's menus an
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"Why not just preface all their settings with their name? Such as "KDE System Settings", "Gnome System Settings", "Xfce System Settings", and so forth?"
Because that isn't sufficiently "cute" or "user friendly".
It's the right of developers who work hard to give us Free stuff to be Aspies and not "get" users other than themselves.
It's our right to point that out.
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Moron AC much? The post could be held up as an alternative canonical example of trolling - presenting plausible, but wrong, information as authoritatitve.
There IS a standard involved here, and GNOME is trying* to not simply ignore it, but break it.
* Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from active malice
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[citation needed]
To be honest i haven't looked, but I would not expect to see a standard on "a control panel naming scheme". Really i think the issue is that these KDE and gnome apps do not have their setting exposed in the app itself or in the case of DE wide settings, it should be ${DE}-settings. My system and my DE are separate or do these "system settings" apps really configure; init, httpd, user accounts, user shells, logging settings, and other such settings?
VSO word order (Score:2)
Wrong word order. If you want to say "it is red", you don't say "is it red"
You don't in English, but you do in Welsh, Irish, Hawaiian, Tagalog, and written Arabic [wikipedia.org].
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Wrong word order. If you want to say "it is red", you don't say "is it red"
That post made no sense at all. Are you arguing for a prefix? That they call it "panel-control"? Why does the word order matter?
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Re:That is a ridiculous complaint ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes. Basically, GNOME apps have some of their setting only st-able in the GNOME control panel. Same for KDE.
Now, despite what some people would have you believe, it is normal, usual, reasonable to have apps from both environment running under whitchever one you prefer. And you may still want to change their settings.
But now, it turns out that in your menu, you have two completely different system settings, named "system settings". This is clearly not very nice.
So ideally, they ought to be called GNOME SS and KDE SS, except for two details.
- KDE named their "system settings" first, and the GNOME dev knew about that
- KDE decided that "KDE" means the community, not the DE. And clearly, the app configures the DE...
To me, this is a case of KDE lacking a bit of forsight, and GNOME being their usual arrofant selves (we are an OS -- no you're not, you are a DE, and that is quite enough)
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Who cares who thought of it "first"? The phrase "System Settings" is not a name, it's a description of the tool. If they both manage system settings, and they're foolishly named based on what they do instead of what they are (like the current trend of calling Firefox / Koqueror / whatever "web browser" or just "web" in the menu), then obviously there will inevitably be conflicts.
Go back to coming up with unique names within a theme (ie, "Konfigure"), and this goes away.
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More than that, I'm fairly sure Apple called it "System Settings" before KDE did, which makes this really hypocritical on the part of the KDE devs.
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More than that, I'm fairly sure Apple called it "System Settings" before KDE did, which makes this really hypocritical on the part of the KDE devs.
Perhaps you should consider reading the article before slinging accusations. The issue is who used the name first, but that the newly introduced name collision breaks the Unity interface. [launchpad.net]
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Who cares who thought of it "first"?
Implemented it first, you mean. The one who implemented it second is the one who broke the system and is therefore at fault. I would like to believe it was an accident.
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I already do this -- I refer to my own software by the SHA-1 hash of the GIT commit.
"After you merge e49fe with 1fef3 make sure the unit tests don't show regressions WRT the issues addressed in 8fc21."
(Referring to e49fe572c4ca9ada2ee470eede12735898dfe3a1, 1fef37cfc05a29708d9f36cd303d28a2c4987928, and 8fc21ec53c8e3fc465929b17db3d47a93a82b97a respectively.)
To avoid confusion instead of version numbers we also refer to specific not-tagged builds by their abbreviated SHA-1 + platform. "Nightly" is sort
Re:"control panel" (Score:4, Funny)
Agreed. It should be Kontrol Kpanel. They really love putting K in front of everything as it is... or have they finally gotten over that?
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NOT Kontrol! (Score:3)
Vee respectfully disagree. Vee say it should be Kaos Panel.
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The choice of name (and the conflict) was intentional. That's my problem with the whole thing.
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KDE is at fault too, why are they claiming it is system settings? does it handle ~/.bash_profile, /etc/profile, init, httpd, postresql config, etc or is it simply KDE settings?
If they are both the later (kde or gnome settings) the reasonable thing to do would be to kname them gboth "Gnome Desktop Environment Settings" and "KDE Desktop Environment Settings". Naming problems solved.
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and it only collides if you install and use both KDE and Gnome at the same time. so, if I provide you a ditch big enough, will you be so kind and go die in it? thanks.
Thus spaketh arrogant prick. lesser humanoid, and Gnome Developer Emmanuele Bassi (ebassi@gmail.com) http://live.gnome.org/EmmanueleBassi.
Olav will be displeased with you, Emmanuele. Guess being a prick precludes you from signing that Gnome Code of Conduct:
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I always considered it douchey of kde to name it "systemsettings" anyway. Should have been "kde-system-settings" or something. It sure as hell doesn't handle non-kde stuff properly.
You should mention that here:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=199326 [kde.org]