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KDE GUI Programming Upgrades Linux

KDE Frameworks 5.0 In Development 227

Posted by timothy from the steady-as-she-goes dept.
An anonymous reader writes "In addition to bringing up the plans for KDE on Wayland, Aaron Seigo just announced at the 2011 Desktop Summit that the KDE 5.0 Frameworks libraries are being planned for development. This central code will be developed in parallel to future KDE SC 4.x releases until it is ready, as to not cause another KDE 4.0 mistake. When the code is ready, key applications will be ported to the new interfaces." (There's another article at IT World.)
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KDE Frameworks 5.0 In Development More

KDE Frameworks 5.0 In Development

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  • Feels early (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Windwraith ( 932426 ) on Sunday August 07, 2011 @05:02PM (#37017262)

    Feels actually very very early. After 4.6 being almost identical to 4.5 regarding workflow, bugs left unpatched, and all the little issues KDE4 still has, moving to 5?
    Is there a new, breaking release of Qt to catch up with like with KDE4?

    • Just to note, I know they are being "planned". Just makes me wonder how much brainpower will be left for KDE4.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward

        All brainpower will be on KDE SC 4.

        This story is about breaking kde's current libraries into smaller modular pieces, it is not about:
        1. KDE SC 5
        2. About developing new libraries

        Ivan
        KDE developer

        • Oh, that's a relief, sorry for misunderstanding.

    • Re:Feels early (Score:5, Informative)

      by KTheorem ( 999253 ) on Sunday August 07, 2011 @05:12PM (#37017314)
      That's it exactly. From what I have read Qt 5 will not have the backwards compatibility for Qt 3 that Qt 4 does. Too many KDE applications still use those compatibility features and so they need to rewrite it so that it no longer does to be able to use Qt 5. Since that will break programs that rely on those compatibility features it is deserving of a version change.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by suy ( 1908306 )

        Qt 5 will be binary incompatible with Qt 4 because they will reorder libraries and modularize them. KDE will do the same with their Frameworks. However...

        Qt 4 will require very few changes in the source code. Yes, they will drop the Qt3 support, but very few KDE apps use the Qt3 classes support (of the apps that I use, only JuK to my knowledge).

        KDE 5 and Qt 5 will be mostly a major version bump because of the binary incompatibily that can't happen without a change in the major number. Some applications migh

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by devent ( 1627873 )

        Why can't I install Qt3 and using the old applications?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by chill ( 34294 )

      How about 4.7? I haven't installed it yet, but the release announcement lists many bugs fixed.

    • Re:Feels early (Score:5, Informative)

      by Enderandrew ( 866215 ) <enderandrewNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday August 07, 2011 @05:46PM (#37017510) Homepage Journal

      I think the issue is that Trolltech/Nokia is moving past Qt 4 series into Qt 5.

      KDE has maintained that kdelibs can't break binary compatibility between major versions. If there is a significant change with Qt, and thusly major changes for kdelibs, then they have major release number.

      That doesn't mean a massive rewrite and change necessarily like we saw with KDE 4.

  • Time for a new API (Score:4, Funny)

    by Chemisor ( 97276 ) on Sunday August 07, 2011 @05:09PM (#37017306)

    It is clearly time for yet another major API change. People have been writing way too many applications for KDE 4 and this must not be allowed to continue! Having millions of apps is such a waste of effort - we're the Linux Desktop, for heaven's sake, not some lame appstore. Surely everyone can agree that having KDE developers write all the key apps is the way to go. We are the most experienced and the most knowledgeable in using the KDE API, and dammit, WHY WON'T YOU LET US HELP YOU?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by smash ( 1351 )
      The old bush "mission accomplished" JPEG springs to mind (with regards to moving to KDE5, KDE4 is finished, or something).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Danious ( 202113 )

      Congratulations on your sterling efforts to keep up the great Slashdot tradition of not RTFA and getting it completely wrong as a result.

      Both Qt5 and KDE Frameworks 5 will be mostly source compatible, it's binary compatability we're breaking, for many apps it will be a simple recompile. The aim is simply to modularise our libraries, clean up the deprecated API, and remove unnecessary dependencies. Your typical KDE app compiled against K5 will look exactly the same as the version compiled against kdelibs 4

  • I hope they make it like 3.5! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Lord Lode ( 1290856 ) on Sunday August 07, 2011 @05:11PM (#37017312)

    It would be awesome if 5.0 were more like 3.5 again (its behaviour and settings), but with the modern graphics features of 4.0 :)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by zixxt ( 1547061 )
      I just don't get the love for the 3.5 series. I liked 3.5.x and used almost everyday, but 4.x series is sooo much better in terms of speed, looks and apps. The KDE 4 series is IMHO right behind the Mac OS X in terms of goodness.

      • I just don't get the love for the 3.5 series. I liked 3.5.x and used almost everyday, but 4.x series is sooo much better in terms of speed, looks and apps. The KDE 4 series is IMHO right behind the Mac OS X in terms of goodness.

        I think that may be why you like KDE 4.x. I am a former Mac user, just like former smokers, there are fewer harsher critics of Apple than their former users. I lost interest in the direction they were taking the UI back in the original OSX days. I haven't looked back since. I feel the same way about KDE 4.x, I find it less usable than KDE 3.5.x. I don't want the UI to get in my way and that's how it feels to me when I try to use KDE 4.x.

        LK

      • Well, at 3.5 the plasma environment didn't segfault one or twice when I start my laptop (sometimes locking the X). Also, its applications did have a more sane reaction to keyboard orders (like, if it opens a window, let it have the focus). Also, I could have more than one KDE session without windows appearing clamming that it couldn't lock a file and closing the application I'm using (and if I don't press the "proceed" button, I can keep using the app, no problem, except for the window that stay above it). The possibility of having more than one session open at the same time was the dealbreaker that let me out of Gnome at KDE3/Gnome2 time (before that I didn't give a dam about what DE I was using).

        But ok, that second problem appears on a kind of interaction that simply didn't exist at the 3.5 time.

        • > Well, at 3.5 the plasma environment didn't segfault one or twice when I start my laptop (sometimes locking the X).

          Does that still happen? Did you file a bug? It can't get fixed if you don't file it.

          > Also, its applications did have a more sane reaction to keyboard orders (like, if it opens a window, let it have the focus).

          Can you give an example? I'd like to resolve this.

          > Also, I could have more than one KDE session without windows appearing clamming that it couldn't lock a file and closing
          >

          • "> Well, at 3.5 the plasma environment didn't segfault one or twice when I start my laptop (sometimes locking the X).

            Does that still happen? Did you file a bug? It can't get fixed if you don't file it."

            I have no idea on how to report that. Do you get Debian's bugs? What data should I report with a plasma segfault? (any log file? There is a core dump somewhere?)

            "Also, its applications did have a more sane reaction to keyboard orders (like, if it opens a window, let it have the focus)."

            That specific prob

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by IrquiM ( 471313 )
          4.x won't segfault either.

          Question; which distro are you using?

    • Out of curiosity, what behavior from KDE 3 is not possible in KDE 4?

      You can revert to a "classic" desktop with icons, a classic Start Menu, and you can configure the task bar to work just like KDE 3. As far as I know, the only feature I recall from KDE 3 that I haven't really seen in 4 is the optional feature of Mac-like application menus.

      • Out of curiosity, what behavior from KDE 3 is not possible in KDE 4?

        I can't speak for the others, but even when it's setup to mimic KDE 3.5.x, KDE 4.x still feels wrong. It's difficult to explain but if it's a problem for you, you know what I mean.

        LK

        • > I can't speak for the others, but even when it's setup to mimic KDE 3.5.x, KDE 4.x still feels wrong. It's difficult
          > to explain but if it's a problem for you, you know what I mean.

          You don't mention an issue that can be fixed. At the exact moment that you feel something is wrong, try to identify what it is. If you do, then post back here or reach me from this form:
          http://dotancohen.com/eng/message.php [dotancohen.com]

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by DF5JT ( 589002 )
            I am fed up reporting bugs to KDE4, because the general attitude is that nothing is broken and that as a user one should adapt to KDE4's behaviour.

            The most annoying thing for me is the total nonsense of system monitoring, which was perfect in KDE3, where you could adapt values, drag&drop sensors, adapt individual colors and select every imaginable sensor and put it into the panel.

            These days you have very, very limited options, no chance to integrate a remote host via ssh, have a sensible readout of stuf

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Ruie ( 30480 )

        Out of curiosity, what behavior from KDE 3 is not possible in KDE 4?

        You can revert to a "classic" desktop with icons, a classic Start Menu, and you can configure the task bar to work just like KDE 3. As far as I know, the only feature I recall from KDE 3 that I haven't really seen in 4 is the optional feature of Mac-like application menus.

        Speed. Especially if your desktop is 1920x1200 or larger.

        • The OP was asking for the behavior of 3.5 with the graphic features of 4.0.

          I imagine if you did an apples-to-apples comparison of speed of KDE 3.5 with Compiz and Kerry vs KDE 4.7 with Plasma and Nepomuk/Strigi, you'll find them pretty close.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Ruie ( 30480 )
            Even better - I did an apples-to-apples comparison by disabling as much as I can in 4.6 (starting with turning off compositing). It is still way slower. The most annoying part is multiple second freeze every time I switch to a desktop which has lots of applications open (or just konsole with lots of tabs). To really see this keep your session running for a week or so.

            For reference, my computer is a dual core 2.66 Ghz, 8GB of RAM, Quadro NVS 160M for graphics.

        • This. With 4.5/4.6, kwin is just slow. It'll freeze display output for a fraction of a second whenever any program updates the titlebar(so anything displaying FPS that way just lags horribly). I ended up swiching to /non-composited/ metacity for my WM... now I have a fast, usable system.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by wrook ( 134116 )

            I've only tried briefly, but I think Compiz works fine on KDE4.5/4.6. I think it might run faster in the situations you are talking about. I've noticed the speed of kwin is heavily dependent up on the theme you choose. On my ridiculously underpowered netbook (which I like using for some reason) it can be unusably slow with some themes, but reasonable with others. Compiz seems to have more consistent performance.

            • I used to use compiz, back on Kubuntu 9.10, and it was great.
              More recent versions, however... for me, compiz just stopped working right - it'd end up with a framerate of around 10fps, though enabling the benchmark would bring it up where it should be.
              But now, after using Metacity... I think I'll stay with it. Sure, the cube was shiny... but this is quicker, and doesn't degrade gaming performance while still allowing multiple virtual desktops.

      • Multiple Individually configured Desktops - Up to 20 of them. I'm sorry but the KDE devs lost me when the insisted on switching to the MS way of doing things instead of keeping the multiple desktop feature. That ensured I wouldn't have anything to do with KDE 4 because I had multiple desktops configured with various apps/tools on each desktop and you simply can't do that anymore - just like MS never allowed you to have that option. Yes the taskbar is nice but I'd much rather be able to not use the taskbar a

        • You can accomplish this today with the usual virtual desktop option, and with activities, which is even more robust.

          I'm not sure where you got the idea they ditched virtual desktops, other than the complaints at the 4.0 launch that you couldn't have a unique wallpaper on each virtual desktop. I'm not sure if this ever changed, because I don't use virtual desktops.

          Some people prefer the ability to quickly switch to a desktop with a series of applications already open for a certain workflow without having to

        • The usage scenario that you describe is possible in KDE 4. You can have multiple desktops and configure a keyboard shortcut to switch them. You can configure a keybaord shortcut to switch to any particular virtual desktop. By default, it is Ctrl-FX for virtual desktop X, up to 12. If you have more Function keys on your keyboard, then there is nothing stopping you from going up to 20. You could configure them to be any shortcut you like.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Zarhan ( 415465 )

        Konsole does not let you name tabs and titles separately. There's plenty of screen estate in title and I don't mind applications setting window title however it likes via xterm. However, I'd like to have my tab title remain static.

    • It would be awesome if 5.0 were more like 3.5 again (its behaviour and settings), but with the modern graphics features of 4.0 :)

      In a way, it might be.

      From my understanding (and from having used both KDE 3.5 and 4.2 through to 4.6) the main problem with KDE 4.x was that it was a complete rewrite from the 3.x series, and to say the transition was rough would be an understatement.

      But if what I heard earlier is correct, KDE 5 will be more like KDE 3 in that it will extend from the KDE 4 codebase rather than du

    • It would be awesome if 5.0 were more like 3.5 again (its behaviour and settings), but with the modern graphics features of 4.0 :)

      You're right! Please let me know what KDE 4.7 is missing for you so that can happen. It's been a good three releases since all my itches have been scratched, but if something is still missing for you I need to know.

      Thanks.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by qbast ( 1265706 )
        Let's see:
        1) Speed - open dolphin window, start resizing. Watch the contents trying to keep up and failing, each part of window moving at different speed
        2) In dolphin go to home directory. Wait 15s until *anything* shows up then 5s more until dolphin is actually usable
        3) Memory usage: in kde3 kmail took about 50-80MB ram. In kde4 it is several hundred MB for kmail itself, next several hundred for mysql, akonadi server and pop3 resource. After that I switched to Thunderbird.
        4) Even more memory usage: run

  • So finally somebody admits to the mistake, till now users and distributions have been accused that they didn't understand that 4.0 (or for that matter 4.1, 4.2, 4.3...). didn't mean "stable".

    • that's the slashdot editors stirring up trouble, not an official kde statement

    • The openSUSE packages were quite stable, even before the 4.0 final. I ran the beta packages even before then.

      The Kubuntu packages were notoriously bad, and Fedoras packages weren't amazing on day one. In that case, many problems were introduced by package maintainers that didn't understand the new build system or where things moved.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by IrquiM ( 471313 )
      But they didn't!

  • The Desktop Summit 2011 includes both Gnome and KDE developers. Is there some reason Slashdot has posted two stories from KDE talks but none from Gnome?

    I'm not trying to start a G vs. K war here, I'd just like to see coverage of both.

    • have you tried submitting a story ?

    • It feels like the Gnome people are holing themselves up in their bunker. Reading Dirk Hohndel's thread on G+ was quite enlightening, especially regarding the behavior of the Gnome community. People who like Gnome 3 actively attack and bash people who don't, and those inside the community are keeping mum for fear of being attacked in a similar manner.

      After hearing this I put Fedora 15 with Gnome 3 in a VM, and immediately I'm put off by some of the changes, here's just a few in my experience:

      - The desktop it

  • Been using 3.5 Quanta and still waiting...

    I read of the problems/apathy integrating Quanta into Kdevelop4...

    How about just fixing the libs in Quanta 3.5 to just work in 4 and 5??? Would that be more doable?

    Either that or someone needs to make a suitable alternative.

    • I've had Quanta (version 3.5.10) installed since 4.6.... now I'm on 4.7.... don't have an issue

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by solanum ( 80810 )

        I've had Quanta (version 3.5.10) installed since 4.6.... now I'm on 4.7.... don't have an issue

        Same here, but I think the problem is that we won't be able to run the KDE 3.5 version of Quanta in a KDE 5.0 environment, we'd have to install the KDE 3.5 environment and swap between that and KDE 5.0 to use it. It really amazes me that Quanta has yet to be ported to KDE 4 as there really isn't an equivalent web development environment on Linux. I've tried several others and for me as a home user with a couple of small family websites none of the other free (in both senses) web development environments ha

  • Keep the ability to choose whether you want a tablet-oriented interface or not.

    That's one of the reasons why many people don't consider Unity and Gnome 3 alternatives anymore.

  • The team announced that they will be removing the mouse, instead of the mouse users are expected to use a tiny window on the screen called "the mouse", and the team said most users would not notice once they got used to it. In other news the team also announced they solved what some have perceived as annoying action where the controls for widgets would jump out like a light show.

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