Teachers Resist High-tech Push In Idaho Schools 311
First time accepted submitter Jack W writes "This morning's NY Times highlights the issue of learning in our public schools and the proper role of technology. The Idaho governor and his state school superintendent are advocating a legislative bill for a massive infusion of computers and on-line technology in schools and is meeting resistance from state teachers, particularly the part of the bill that requires high school students to take online courses for two of their 47 graduation credits. Superintendent Luna is quoted as saying, the computer 'becomes the textbook for every class, the research device, the advanced math calculator, the word processor and the portal to a world of information.' The article notes that the governor had received campaign contributions from technology companies and that Apple and Intel had played a part in drafting the bill."
Non-profit are always subsidized (Score:2)
What is new? Not so long ago Microsoft and Red Hat fought hard on that kind of thing.
But it's not always that bad. Just look at the Gacaca project in Rwanda, Microsoft spent a lot of money to showcase .Net and this allowed a better funding. Could this have been done (better) with another technology? Probably, but a bill had to be paid and expecting companies to do charity is not a prudent gamble.
Pointless (Score:4, Insightful)
The pointless application of technology just for the simple sake of technology seems a waste.
Now, a subject course where students have to buy and learn to program a $25 computer, no more expensive than a typical textbook, that would be a worthwhile application of technology in schools.
*sighs*
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The 80ies were great for learning stuff. I also then learned in classes(not in school, I got taught at NCR) how to program stuff in BASIC. Well, when I say learning programming in BASIC I actually mean playing DigDug, Thexder and possibly Leisuresuit Larry(wtf is a lubber?). I had to fix the damage done to my brain
Onerous Regulation to Enrich Private Interests (Score:5, Insightful)
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Some students and some classes could and should be taught online. However, these decisions need to be made by school districts, parents, and students. The governor shouldn't be placing a huge unfunded mandate on local schools just because Apple cut him a check.
Online teaching works for students with an aptitude for it. I can succeed wonderfully -- but for that group.
Having computers in a classroom requires having the need and plan in place, before actually acquiring the technology, otherwise it's a distraction.
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Can you please cite which groups of people can't learn from it? The studies I've seen on tech-based teaching has never identified certain groups students doing worse while others do better. Is this simply your intuition?
Re:Onerous Regulation to Enrich Private Interests (Score:5, Funny)
Can you please cite which groups of people can't learn from it?
Tech for the sake of tech. (Score:5, Insightful)
unfair society (Score:2)
Our children get the education that we deserved. Not really fair but that's the way it is.
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That insight is quite a bit more general than what you state. The quality of anything is not a result of the amount you spend on it.
That is just more accentuated on governments, but is a general truth.
needs a non-crappy ecosystem (Score:5, Insightful)
The first major push for computers in schools had more than just some computers. In addition to putting the Apple IIs (usually) into school computer labs, there were also initiatives like MECC [wikipedia.org] to produce useful software for them, research from educators like Seymour Papert [wikipedia.org] on how to use them to teach technical skills, etc.
By the late 80s this had mostly withered away, so that when my own high school in the 1990s replaced its Apple IIs with Macintosh LCs, the main thing they were used for besides word processing was... running the old Apple II software on the IIe attachment card [wikipedia.org].
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Mod parent up.
Seymour Papert used computers as a TOOL along with legos to promote THINKING and his approach translated into other topics that didn't use technology. The quality MECC software didn't need newer technology to fulfill its job; some lesser software like the pointless Oregon Trail was really a video game and could benefit from upgrades; sadly it continues having not made any constructive progress. (the WWW helping reading is just a by product.)
Technology is NOT needed in K-12 at all. Its just a
if they are like the recent ed grads I've known (Score:3)
LoB
teachers' unions (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a dues-paying, card-carrying member of a teachers' union (at a community college), but I can't help feeling that this is the kind of thing that teachers' unions in the US have brought upon themselves.
What should happen is that K-12 teachers should be professionals, and they should be treated just like other professionals, such as doctors and engineers. When is the last time you heard an engineer claiming that although his bridge fell down, he shouldn't be held accountable? When's the last time you heard a premed saying that it was unreasonable to expect him to do well on the MCAT, because African-Americans do worse on it, on the average, than whites and Asians, thereby proving that the test is racist? Or a doctor whining that it was unreasonable to expect him to use MRI scanners, because he hasn't had the training?
What left the K-12 teaching profession vulnerable to political interference was its history of failing to hold itself to high professional standards. That opened the door to NCLB and a general tendency of politicians to try to tinker with things that ought to lie within teachers' own sphere of professional competence and discretion.
What the politicians in Idaho are doing is stupid, but that kind of incompetent tinkering is the natural result of K-12 teachers' unwillingness to act like professionals.
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Oh, they don't have to whine. They don't even have to refuse. Docotors simply don't pursuit working with MRI scanners when they think they aren't able, and don't try to prove that they are.
Well, it does not take anything from your point. Just the analogy was a bad one.
Re:teachers' unions (Score:5, Insightful)
When is the last time you heard an engineer claiming that although his bridge fell down, he shouldn't be held accountable?
I appreciate what you're saying (and how you stated it), but comparing teachers to engineers isn't very valid.
My proposal is more like if the engineers had to be responsible for 30, 35, 40 projects (students) at once, and the materials they have to work with are enough steel & rivets & cable for 25 bridges, plus some 2x4s, twine, and some ... bananas (being the troubled students).
Engineers under such circumstances would most certainly not want to be held accountable for the bridges not made of steel that collapse.
Cheers...
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Agreed. I heard the same sort of thing in a speech by the CEO of Dairy Queen that they were constantly evaluating everyone's performance for excellence.
However, DQ *also* gets to choose it's inputs, both in terms of raw materials and people. They don't hire the stupid ones (they hope), and they don't buy substandard products.
Public school is more like a business that gets a random assortment of input raw material and a random cross-section of people showing up to work. And then assert that they can't fir
What is an education (Score:2)
I think that a lot of people that push for technology (and don't have a vested interest) in the classroom don't realise that, good grades doesn't equal a good education. They try to make out that technology will increase their intelligence, i think it will just make it easier to spoonfeed students, it won't make them any better at developing their own ideas, conducting their own research, nor improving the quality of someones education.
Probably the biggest problem is, tests only identify those who are the b
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What is education
I think people should realise that technology has its place, and isn't an extension of somebody, technology is just a tool and not always the right tool.
Right. Others have said it before.
"Education is what survives when what has been learned has been forgotten". (BF Skinner) [dictionary-quotes.com]
"Education is the progressive realization of our ignorance". (A Einstein) [dictionary-quotes.com]
Not if it doesn't work! (Score:5, Insightful)
In Colorado, on-line schools have been shown to be less effective than face time with the teacher -- dramatically so.
There's no reason to think that doesn't scale, and if it scales that means that those on-line courses would be ineffective.
Tech in schools is such a waste (Score:3, Insightful)
The best math teachers I ever had shared one thing in common -- they disallowed calculators in their class. And as fun as a kindle or ipad may be, I'd wager a hefty sum that reading a novel in paper is (at least currently) more intuitive and less of a barrier to the material than reading it electronically. I hate to be a "get off my lawn" type, but I feel that schools should be actively resisting any technological "aid" to teaching that is not something directly taught by the class.
Math classes should be "show your work."
Language, history, and Literature should be "show your notes."
Intro to programming should be "show your algorithms" -- more switch design and less "hello world."
I can see benefit to computers in more advanced programming courses, as well as in history courses that want to include videos and/or art. But really, there is very little place for a computer in sub-college school work. People need to learn to think on their feet.
Just my $0.02.
Re:Tech in schools is such a waste (Score:5, Insightful)
The best math teachers I had encouraged calculators because they were focusing on the theory. And by golly the kids learned far more and the teacher focused on teaching rather than rote mechanical operations to drill things in by memorization.
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The thing is, for most purposes "I did in in my head" turns a solution into uselessness. Solutions to problems are things that you can communicate with others. There is almost as much value in *how* you got to a solution as in the solution itself, because a good *how* actually adds value. No one builds a 100 floor building after an engineer computed something in his head.
Most of what you l
Online Class Requirement (Score:4, Insightful)
The plan requires high school students to take online courses for two of their 47 graduation credits.
This sounds like a cost-cutting measure. Online classes are for times when the alternative is not having the class. They're "better than nothing", not "better".
If a school wanted to offer students a course in programming but didn't have anyone capable, then it might make sense to arrange for them to take an online course offered by a third party (preferably a tech school or college in the same area). It doesn't sound like this is anything close to what they're doing.
The real issue is... (Score:2)
... it's all about how technology is used rather then using it as a bandaid or distraction. There are places in schools where technology makes sense.
The real issue as always comes down to the staff and the students, unwilling uneducated/lazy staff or lazy/disinterested students are the real issues. No amount of technology or NO technology is going to change what is fundamentally a problem of understanding human beings strengths and weaknesses and tracking these people to curriculum appropriate to their
The bottom line is greed, not education (Score:2)
Like any pig at a trough, they want it ALL, not just their share. Education of the students is secondary while both sides play politics with their lives.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Responsibility (Score:4, Insightful)
There is one thing that we know about education. The higher value the student places upon and takes responsibility for learning, the better the student does. If a student wants to learn, they can learn despite bad teachers, or bad online courses. The better the tools and more opportunity a student like this has. The more they will learn.
Sometimes a student lights this flame inside all by themselves.
Sometimes a teacher lights this flame for them.
More often than not though. It is parental involvement at home that makes a difference. Everything from reading to a child, installing the love of learning, to just making sure learn good study habits and get their homework done.
Parents who do not do this at home and rely on teachers to do it because "it is there job" are the real problem. Even the best teacher can not be guaranteed to be able to do this with the number of students and time they have in class. By definition, not all teachers can be exceptional. Many will fail at this because they don't have what it takes to inspire. It is still the parents job at home to do this.
My wife's experiance (Score:3)
My wife is a secondary school German and French teacher here in the UK.
Her school has a very tech heavy setup, with smart-boards in all the classrooms and all the kids have netbooks.
She really loves the smart-boards, they are incredibly useful because they allow her to use much richer teaching material much more easily than in the past, mixing video, audio, and even letting her create interactive games for the whole class.
The netbooks on the other hand are much less useful. In a class of 30 the odds of all the kids remembering to bring them, and all of them working properly is pretty small. They get broken and lost or infected with viruses. The school's IT team have done a really good job, but with 1200 students it's a sisyphean task to keep them all running.
Don't get me wrong, I think the kids having the netbooks has been a good thing overall, but it's not a magic bullet.
But most importantly the use of the new tech has been driven by the teaching staff, not imposed on them from above, so what they have actually serves an educational purpose.
Politicians should stay out of the minutia of teaching and let teachers and school mangement get on with it. Government should stick to just making sure that the results are good, and intervening where necessary, not ruling by dictat.
Re:Simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
If you think a little bit...... maybe the teachers are right about things?
Some common idea + "on the internet" doens't make a good patent.
Some same teaching + "on technology" doesn't make for good education.
All high school students know what a computer is and are hardly in awe of the 'portal to the world of information' any more than they are in awe of a telephone.
Doing something useful with it is the key---or spending the same money on something else which may give more value.
Teachers may, with good reason, believe that they will now be forced to use some odd creaky technology (edu-software is like that) without any decent level of tech support after the first year, and they'll waste all sorts of time on powerpoint nonsense instead of getting on with it.
Thinking.... nope, you are wrong. (Score:3)
If you think a little bit...... maybe the teachers are right about things?
About all things? I'm pretty sure not.
Some common idea + "on the internet" doens't make a good patent.
But EDUCATION + Internet = GREAT IDEA.
The fact is this. We live in a world where there is an amazing ability to learn almost anything online.
So why not teach kids, as early as possible to be able to take advantage of this amazing resource to learn when and where they want?
Something that can't go on forever will not, and the upward sp
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The fact is this. We live in a world where there is an amazing ability to learn almost anything online.
No. There is an amazing ability to find information online, but learning requires evaluation and incorporation of correct information.
I.e., not all Internet information is factual, and not all of it is correct. Learning cannot truly take place in an environment where facts are not and opinions masquerade as such.
I'll also point out that "learning on the internet" is not the same as "must take two online learning courses to graduate". The latter is a mandate that is not appropriate for the Governor to pus
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No. There is an amazing ability to find information online, but learning requires evaluation and incorporation of correct information.
So you evaluate and take your information from a reputable source, you know, like you do in all aspects of life. You don't just trust what anyone tells you and that includes teachers, because they aren't always going to be correct.
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So you evaluate and take your information from a reputable source, you know, like you do in all aspects of life.
You've just pushed the problem down one level on the stack. How do you teach students to identify reputable sources if you just throw them at the internet and let them figure it out for themselves?
You don't just trust what anyone tells you and that includes teachers, because they aren't always going to be correct.
No, they won't always be correct, and only a fool would think they would be -- or that I made any claim similar to that. At least there is a vetting process that takes place and someone is responsible, whether it is the local school board or superintendent or principle, or the state organization that vets textbo
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You've just pushed the problem down one level on the stack. How do you teach students to identify reputable sources if you just throw them at the internet and let them figure it out for themselves?
No-one is suggesting you just throw them at the internet and let them figure it out for themselves, you're just trying to create FUD with rubbish comments like that.
No, they won't always be correct, and only a fool would think they would be -- or that I made any claim similar to that. At least there is a vetting process that takes place and someone is responsible, whether it is the local school board or superintendent or principle, or the state organization that vets textbooks. It's not just "hope" and "maybe" the students won't wander into a site with ridiculous "facts" that they have no way of vetting themselves.
And no-one is suggesting that you would eliminate teachers or textbooks (since they would be in digital form) and rely solely on kids just using the internet, so your point is completely irrelevant anyway.
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No-one is suggesting you just throw them at the internet and let them figure it out for themselves,
What other interpretation would you apply to the phrase "just the internet" when referring to high school students? If there are teachers involved, then it isn't "just the internet".
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I'll also point out that "learning on the internet" is not the same as "must take two online learning courses to graduate". The latter is a mandate that is not appropriate for the Governor to push.
True. However, I do have to say that with the proliferation of online courses in college that this would give high school students the exposure to taking online courses and help prepare them for college. It's easy to blow off online courses and procrastinate when you don't have to go in to a class every day. Hopefully, they'll learn these lessons early.
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I do have to say that with the proliferation of online courses in college that this would give high school students the exposure to taking online courses and help prepare them for college.
That is the one valuable thing I see from having online courses available to high school students -- teaching them how to take an online course. I doubt that the mandate is based on that idea, and without the support available to college students who take online courses (TAs, help desks, etc) it is questionable whether many of the high school students will find the experience anything other than frustrating.
It's easy to blow off online courses and procrastinate when you don't have to go in to a class every day. Hopefully, they'll learn these lessons early.
It sounds like you think high school students need instruction on how to skip classes. Perhaps you
That is my point!!! (Score:3)
No. There is an amazing ability to find information online, but learning requires evaluation and incorporation of correct information.
Gee, then wouldn't it be nice to have someone help you figure out how to evaluate and incorporate information online.
You know, something like, perhaps - A SCHOOL????????????
Perhaps one getting a large technology grant??
?!
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My wife is the sys admin for the distance education department of a local college, so I'm getting a kick out of your replies.
Since you didn't bother to add any content to the discussion, I'll assume your "kick" is that you think I'm wrong.
If your wife's "distance education department" consists of nothing but pointing students to the Internet, then I pity the students. I suspect that the department consists of people who create and identify the content the students should be using, not simply saying "google for the answers to the following exam questions", and probably some number of live resources to answer questions, whether i
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So why not teach kids, as early as possible to be able to take advantage of this amazing resource to learn when and where they want?
Are you freaking kidding me? Kids already understand how to use the Internet better than most adults. They also know a bunch of stuff they don't want you to know they know, and more. My four year old knows how to open a browser and go to his favorite web sites. They don't need this sort of help. They probably think the way YOU use the Internet is archaic, stupid, and uncreati
Re:Simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong. Any teacher that fails to teach must be fired. I'm fairly sure some teachers can teach very well without computers/calculators/projectors/...
Don't mistake the tools for the end result.
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And I'm sure that basic computer literacy is the biggest shortcoming of students that our education systems are pumping out today.
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I get "that look" regularly, when I hand a young cashier $10.34 for a $4.34 sale -- she saw the $10 bill and poked that number into the register which is now telling her to give me $5.66, and I'm telling her to give me $6. Com
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I was being quite sarcastic. My suspicion is that in our culture today kids will have no shortage of experience working with technology. I don't necessarily see a problem with having a course teaching certain computer skills. But I don't know that it is necessary to force teachers to use computers in every class.
I recently was at a dollar store and and the cashier couldn't make change for $2 from a $1.13 sale. She had to pull out her calculator.
All this being said, if you want to treat teacher's as prof
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No, School is supposed to be about training them to have sufficient basic skills to enter the job climate.
Parents are supposed to teach kids how to think for themselves...
GrpA
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But it does not follow from this that this proposed spending will efficiently remedy a lack of computer literacy in the students. That requires that students lack computer literacy now, that the spending will fix this, and that it will do so at reasonable cost.
I'm too removed from this situation to make a judgement, but the views of the teachers deserve careful consideration.
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Wish I had mod points.
My thoughts exactly. The school my kids go to allowed them to use calculators to do homework. I saw all sorts of GIGO errors in their work; fundamental simple errors. They were frustrated with math. So I took their calculators away and made them do math long hand. Before long they understood numbers and how the answer should look like - before they use the calculator.
Kids also think "research" is sticking a phrase into google and copying and pasting the result into a paper. The l
is your solution just looking for a problem (Score:5, Insightful)
there has been no established correlation between technology in schools and improved academic performance.
I think anyone who wastes money on shoving technology into schools should be fired. Yet I have a vested interest in it being otherwise (I make ebook readers and tablet computers).
there are strong correlations between economic affluence of the community (i.e. rich folks) and performance in schools. I'm not sure how that can be used to improve our schools, but better than some imaginary assumed linked between technology and success.
The other big waste is text books, why would low-level courses need new text books every 3-5 years. I would rather we spent the money on creating open licensed text books than on a nearly disposable laptop or tablet that becomes worn out or obsolete in 2 years. (I said "the money" as if schools have any just laying around. HA!)
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Throwing money on expensive gadgets that do nothing to improve the educational process is a complete waste of money
Making it far easier to access up-to-date information is great for the education process. You'll never replace teachers but technology like this is clearly advantageous. What is it specifically you're opposed to?
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What is it specifically you're opposed to?
1. Unfunded mandates from higher levels of government.
2. Mandated online classes as a high school graduation requirement.
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1. Unfunded mandates from higher levels of government.
Unfunded mandates from higher levels of government occur in almost all aspects of life, the government isn't expected to fund every mandate they make.
2. Mandated online classes as a high school graduation requirement.
What's wrong with having high school students take classes in a form that is becoming ever more common in post-high school life?
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Unfunded mandates from higher levels of government occur in almost all aspects of life, the government isn't expected to fund every mandate they make.
"It happens" and "it's a good thing" are two different concepts. And not expecting the government at the state level to fund something that they demand the local schools do is one of the "it happens" things, not one of the "it's a good things".
What's wrong with having high school students take classes in a form that is becoming ever more common in post-high school life?
Nothing is wrong with allowing them to take approved online courses. Did you miss the word "mandate"?
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"It happens" and "it's a good thing" are two different concepts.
Then why did you list a justification for your opposition as simply that it is an unfunded mandate? Obviously that isn't justification for opposition at all. Not to mention that 'it happens' and 'it's a good thing' are clearly not mutually exclusive.
And not expecting the government at the state level to fund something that they demand the local schools do is one of the "it happens" things, not one of the "it's a good things".
Why? They aren't mutually exclusive.
Nothing is wrong with allowing them to take approved online courses. Did you miss the word "mandate"?
Are you hard of reading? The statement stands for itself, I didn't write 'allowing' and i didn't miss the word 'mandate'. If you really are having that much difficulty then replace 'having' in the original statement with 'mand
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Then why did you list a justification for your opposition as simply that it is an unfunded mandate?
Because I think the fact that "it happens" is irrelevant. I think it is a bad thing. You argued that "it happens" as support for it continuing, and I pointed out that "it happens" isn't a justification.
Obviously that isn't justification for opposition at all.
Obviously to you, because you think that "it happens" is justification for it continuing.
Are you hard of reading? The statement stands for itself, I didn't write 'allowing' and i didn't miss the word 'mandate'.
Obviously you did miss the word "mandate", because you replied to my coment about mandating something by asking what was wrong with it happening. There is a difference between allowing them to do it and mandating it, a
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I'd venture to say that this is not entirely true for many subjects that students learn in K-12. For example, geometry, arithmetic, algebra, even basic calculus haven't changed significantly in hundreds of years.
Isn't it odd then that there are constantly new revisions of textbooks? These are 'updated' versions, you don't use the same textbook from hundreds of years ago because explanations and teaching methodologies are updated and errors fixed.
Why would you need instantly up to date information to learn these subjects? The same is true for english, history, etc., etc.
You don't think mankind discovers more about history as time goes on? Uncovering more details? Making archaeological discoveries?
And the same questions as always. (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Lost/Stolen devices. Who pays for replacements? Why?
2. Damaged systems that need replacement. Who pays? Why?
3. Virus infections and such. What's the turn-around time on support for those? Will the school have extras to loan while they "clean" the students' machines?
4. Upgrade policy. Will the freshman class have better equipment than the senior class?
And so forth.
Throwing tech at a non-tech problem is stupid. And tech gets old really fast. And tech needs expensive support.
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1. Lost/Stolen devices. Who pays for replacements? Why?
Irrelevant. Apple/Intel get paid for it
2. Damaged systems that need replacement. Who pays? Why?
irrelevant. Apple/Intel get paid for it
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1. Lost/Stolen devices. Who pays for replacements? Why?
Insured by the owner, obviously.
2. Damaged systems that need replacement. Who pays? Why?
Insured by the owner, obviously.
3. Virus infections and such. What's the turn-around time on support for those?
Probably quite small, re-image and you're done. Data would be stored in datacenters so no loss of data just because a device is lost, damaged, etc...
Will the school have extras to loan while they "clean" the students' machines?
Re-image is quick.
4. Upgrade policy. Will the freshman class have better equipment than the senior class?
It would cycle as tech becomes obsolete and new tech replaces it.
Let's Not Forget... (Score:2)
It remains more or less the same as with books, lab equipment and classroom resources. Why does everyone expect something new when there's no real management and processing difference in what type of resource has been compared.
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Computers are handy for learning and teaching yourself, and there's a increasing amount of really good educational stuff available for free online, but it's technology working in tandem, not against. There's even an interesting program on the go where retired folk in the UK are volunteering to help English language students in Africa via Skype. It's changing the way teachers work, but it's not going to replace them.
Re:Let's Not Forget... (Score:4, Insightful)
It remains more or less the same as with books, lab equipment and classroom resources. Why does everyone expect something new when there's no real management and processing difference in what type of resource has been compared.
Yeah, like that time my history book got a virus while I was looking at pictures of naked statues... before anyone realized what was happening, the whole damn library had been infected, and they had to white-out all the pages and re-print everything... What a mess!
P.S. On the plus side, all the students got a week of free vacation, so it's not all bad.
Re:And the same questions as always. (Score:5, Insightful)
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That's the big problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
"We need more computers in the classroom!"
OK, what are you going to do with them?
The school district I grew up in (in yuppieville) has decided that every student should have a tablet computer.
My response was, why?
There is virtually nothing a tablet computer is going to do that can't be done with some combination of pen, paper, and an overhead. And in most cases, the pen/paper/overhead is going to be more effective.
I'm actually surprised the teachers are opposed - in my old district it's the teachers pushing the technology buy. Then again, most of the teachers there kinda stink.
Re:That's the big problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
Tablets can enable more interactive teaching among a large group of students, rather than just a few. With access to the right software, the better teachers will make perfectly good use of them.
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Funny, I thought it was the teacher's job to draw in all the students...
Re:That's the big problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
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At least some students will be able to access Wikipedia or some other resources they're actually interested in about the subject.
It's pretty bad when your kids can on average learn more from surfing the Internet than going to school. It's pretty bad that IBM can build a computer (Watson) that could ace just about any test that are given to students these days. Schools have become a joke where underpaid and under-qualified teachers have become the norm training under-interested pupils how to pass the latest
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Nah, it's always been that way. You've always been able to learn more in an hour or two of self-directed reading than in a whole day of school.
Re:That's the big problem. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is virtually nothing a tablet computer is going to do that can't be done with some combination of pen, paper, and an overhead
Well, copy and paste for one. Send in homework from anywhere at any time. Get feedback from anywhere/any time. Ask questions anywhere/any time. I could go on, but you get the idea.
As for your comment, you could say the same thing about the ball point pen vs quill and ink. "There is virtually nothing a ball point pen is going to do that can't be done with some combination of ink, quill, and a candle."
I'm not saying that this tablet thing is a good idea, and I certainly agree that kids should learn to research and write the old fashioned way, but don't eliminate technology because the old way is "good enough". Kids should know how to use a calculator, but they should also know how to do long division with pencil and paper. Kids should be able to count back change when the register breaks. But that doesn't mean you should ban the calculator and the register. You teach both.
Sorry, I'll get off your lawn now.
Re:That's the big problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't forget that it becomes trivial to play games in class, pass notes, and generally goof off.
Kids should know how to use a calculator, but they should also know how to do long division with pencil and paper.
You have to understand the theory before you move on to the "well we have a tool that can do this." Otherwise, you get pretty much what we have today - "Garbage in, Gospel Out."
Or to put it another way: Charles Babbage famously noted, "On two occasions I have been asked,—"Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." Sadly, as the SOPA debate has proven, legislators today are actually DUMBER than legislators of that era.
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I had a teacher that told me if I could program the calculator to get the right answer, then obviously I understood how to get the right answer. I liked that guy.
Re:That's the big problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, copy and paste for one. Send in homework from anywhere at any time. Get feedback from anywhere/any time. Ask questions anywhere/any time. I could go on, but you get the idea.
Copy and paste WHAT exactly? Papers you downloaded from the internet? It's a tablet, not a computer with a mouse, it's not good for anything education-related that requires copying and pasting.
As for your comment, you could say the same thing about the ball point pen vs quill and ink. "There is virtually nothing a ball point pen is going to do that can't be done with some combination of ink, quill, and a candle."
Except write continuously without needing to dip it in more ink.
I'm not saying the new way is bad because the old way is "good enough", I'm saying the new way is bad because it's worse than the old way.
Just because it's got a microprocessor in it doesn't mean it's necessarily better. Especially not at education.
Re:That's the big problem. (Score:5, Informative)
If you'd read the article (I know, I know. No I'm not new here) you'd have seen that the teachers are opposed to it because the State is diverting funds from salaries to pay for it.
Re:That's the big problem. (Score:4, Informative)
The funds aren't being diverted from salaries. Sure salaries are being cut, but Salaries + Tech does not equal what their budget was. They were getting a budget cut ether way. Then Luna decided that this group that paid him money for his campaign should get their little Technology In the Classroom project forced in. The original plan was going to require the local schools to come up with the money coupled with a state wide cut to education which would have required firing some teachers and reducing the number of classes available. However, most of our Rural Schools out in the middle of no were with a population of less than 100 were going to have to find a way raise the funds. Parents also aren't too happy with the idea that they are cutting back on actual teaching even more in-favor of an idiot box baby sitter. I'm all for fixing out Education System but this is just more of the same Politics that has made our Education System what it is today.
PS Idaho is that state that tricked the people into approving a Sales Tax(1966) [idahoea.org] that would ALL go to education then turned around and said ohh all tax money goes into the General Fund per the State Constitution and the Legislature gets to decide how to spend it.
Re:That's the big problem. (Score:4, Informative)
Idaho Native in one of those rural towns. I have friends on the local school board that are having to deal with this idiotic law.
Our high school averages 500 kids, 125 per class. In 4 years, there will be 500 laptops or tablets needing support. The school district doesn't even employ a full time IT person now. They have one of the high school business teachers be the Network administrator.
With the additional support load, now they are going to have to have an IT department. It is going to be beyond 1 person.
Now add on other laws about requiring schools to filter internet access on computers that kids have access to. The law doesn't say that it only applies to equipment located at the school. It applies to all school district equipment, no matter the location. So your IT department has to be sophisticated enough to manage web filtering for traveling equipment so that it is filtered no matter where it is. I know there are products out there that do this, but is a step up in sophistication. One thought being tossed around by the school board is that they won't allow the students to take the laptops or tablets home.
They thought maybe they could save money on textbooks by buying the e-book versions and issuing those to the students to use on the laptops or tablets. But for the most part, the textbook publishers are charging the same price for e-book or hard bound. With DRM schemes, the textbook publisher is forcing faster refresh cycles too. So they charge the same price, but you have to buy them more often
There are school districts that are even smaller. They might have 40 kids in their high school. They have even less IT skills in their schools, but will have to have much more sophisticated networks now.
Our school has several "smart classrooms". They are telepresence equipped classrooms. One of our local teachers teaches a course on Holocaust Literature not only in our school, but through this kind of technology, to six other high schools in our region. This is good technology. This is the kind of technology that the schools wanted more of. It is relatively cheap to equip these classrooms these days and the equipment is simple to maintain. But this kind of technology isn't getting funded. Instead we are getting more expensive solutions that require more maintenance and support.
It is asinine.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1 and 2, the taxpayer, no doubt. Because we pay 50 dollars a box to set them up (which central IT can do ourselves, but don't because then we don't get the warranty benefits, don't worry we're fixing that.) and then pay for "extended accidental protection", to the tune of another 110 per box. The hardware vendor makes out great, the taxpayer gets screwed.
3. in the school system I work for, about 3 days, because they refuse to properly staff support.
4. Upgrades only come after we have spent the cost of a new
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If one is using computers for class, then the computers have to be reliable and the turn around time for repairs has to be short. This is not true at mos
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An even better question to ask... (Score:5, Insightful)
Superintendent Luna is quoted as saying, the computer 'becomes the textbook for every class, the research device, the advanced math calculator, the word processor and the portal to a world of information.'
Here's the only question that matters: What research-based evidence supports this view that a computer is a better and more effective medium for accessing this information than the present status quo of books, the library, the handheld calculator, and a desktop computer?
Because, to put it in terms of business, if there isn't a decent Return-On-Investment with buying all this tech, than no citizen or politician should put money up to invest.
Re:An even better question to ask... (Score:5, Insightful)
One thing to remember is that Idaho is pretty large in land-area and pretty small in population. There are lots of small towns with really small schools.
One thing this will help enable is kids in these small schools being able to take a wider variety of courses, or more advanced courses that their local school district simply can't afford to offer. Imagine a high school so small that there is only one "science" teacher for all science subjects. Now imagine you're a kid in that school and you love physics and would like to take AP physics so you can get a leg up going to college.
In Boise (over 100k population) there's no problem - there are plenty of teachers and plenty of courses. But if you're in Twin Falls or an even smaller community (like the one Napoleon Dynamite was set it), you're screwed as a kid.
Another thing to consider is that for everyone, the future of education will be web-delivered courses. If you've ever done one, you'll know that courses delivered this way require a different kind of discipline than a "forced to sit in a seat" class. If you agree that the idea of k-12 education is to prepare students for life, then it makes sense that part of the education process is to teach kids how to learn using this relatively new method.
By requiring it of all schools (large or small), it forces the issue of establishing the infrastructure to support it and it also helps level the playing field for kids who are at a geographic disadvantage.
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My local school district in Idaho (Weiser) has a couple Telepresence Classrooms. The students take Japanese and Calculus being taught by teachers in other locations. A local teacher teaches a popular Holocaust Literature class that is attended by students from more than 6 other school districts.
This is the type of technology the teachers and the schools wanted. It is much cheaper than putting a tablet or a laptop in every students hand and easier to support.
But no, we had to go the unproven expensive
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Re:And the same questions as always. (Score:4, Insightful)
Nobody is saying that computer skills shouldn't be taught in school. What they are saying is the following:
1. Diverting funding from flesh and blood teachers in favor of technology is short-sighted and in the long run has the same effect as not having the technology.In other words, providing a tool without proper instruction is the same as giving a book without teaching them to read.
2. Critical thinking is required when using technology to ensure you aren't being misinformed especially if you are talking about the Internet. Just because some webpage declares something to be true doesn't make it so.
3. Learning how to do things manually before jumping right to technology is a critical skill. Without that skill, kids will become too reliant on the technology and are lost when it fails them. In short, the technology becomes a crutch for their own thinking skills which go down the toilet when the tech fails.
I work in state government and have access to some of the most advanced technology known to man. None of it beats a human when it comes to interpreting what the technology is depicting.
Re:And the same questions as always. (Score:5, Informative)
1. Lost/Stolen devices. Who pays for replacements? Why?
Did not happen to any degree (I don't recall hearing about any but it might have happened). The kids loved the laptops. They "grew up" and treated them as their most precious possession. We did not require them to take out insurance, just replaced from our stock.
2. Damaged systems that need replacement. Who pays? Why?
Happened very rarely. Couple of LCD screens got banged up (closing lid hard with pencil in the joint was the leading cause). Replaced the unit immediately (kid just exchanged at the repair room). We had a cheap source to replace the LCD (vendor set us up with their repair contractor). So no one paid anything.
3. Virus infections and such. What's the turn-around time on support for those? Will the school have extras to loan while they "clean" the students' machines?
Had Mac computers and no virus problems (don't hate me, it was true). We had replacements not loaners so all your data had to be on the server at all times. Any problem with the computer was dealt with by taking in the problem unit and replacing with one from stock. Then offline repairing the turned in unit.
4. Upgrade policy. Will the freshman class have better equipment than the senior class?
These started out as the units just replaced by a slightly faster model. Everyone in all classes got their computers from the same larger stock. All grades turned in their computers at year end and got a "different" unit the next year. But all the same model and style. For what you do with the laptop the fastest and latest is unnecessary. The plan was to replace them after three years with a new batch.
And so forth.
Throwing tech at a non-tech problem is stupid. And tech gets old really fast. And tech needs expensive support.
We had one adult in the exchange room during the day. The best techie student became the person that re-imaged devices (which was the first line of "repair"). And then any true damage was sent out for repair. 900 students with laptops. One person and a volunteer. The only crunch came before the year to image 900 units in a short period of time, but that is where we used adult volunteers and teaching staff in the summer for a week or so.
If anyone is truly interested I can share more details (I would need to look up some of the details, for example the number of extra computers we had in the tech room). Many parents were convinced their child could not be trusted (and many in the community were sure that these juvenile delinquents would immediately steal us blind). But other schools experiences mirrored what we saw. Very low incidents of any problems, these kids really rose to the occasion.
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Key words: "at this school." Meaning probably a desktop in a computer lab or other common-access area. People will always disrespect what's not "theirs." This applies to so-called adults as well as kids. If they vandalized them during the class they'd move to another, working station; if they did it at the end of their class, too bad for the suckers in the next class.
The laptops, on the other hand, were "theirs" for the term. If they vandalized or broke them while at home, they couldn't use it or get a repl
Re:Chromebooks, fool. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, please rail on now about how worthless Chromebooks are and kids can't possibly get an decent education with just the Internet.
Well, ok. With "just the Internet", how does a child learn to identify and prioritize information he receives from the Internet?
You have to have some place to start. Throwing a kid onto the internet and saying "learn it for yourself" isn't a productive way to teach kids anything. How do you counteract the damage if the first website they come across teaches them that 2+2=6 or something equally wrong? How do they realize there is a foundation for all of the advanced topics they will come across, and better yet, which foundations are relevant?
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I think parent meant "Just the Internet" because Chromebooks don't have native applications (only web access), I don't think he was saying Chromebooks are a replacement for teachers.
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it's like the twilight zone episode where they 'homeschool' a girl trying to develop mental telepathy from moving images from pieces of paper. then the 'real' teacher teaches the girl to speak with her lips by having the students all 'think' the same thought at her...
when i was learning about computers there was a lot of disinformation. i kept finding uses for computers and people kept telling me stupid things about computers. i have yet to find a genuine source of real information, that doesn't hype thing
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No-one is even suggesting that. That's the point of the teachers! To lead the class.
Then when you said "just the internet", you didn't mean "just the internet", did you? What you wrote suggested that very thing. "Teachers and internet" is not the same as "just the internet", at least not in the language dejure.
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That being said, being tech savvy and knowing how to conduct yourself is part of literacy in our modern world and that is best adressed at school.
I'm not a huge fan of online-courses as those tend to be nothing more than glorified interactive text books. Those do indeed not substitue a proper teacher/pupil discourse. But they can like text books supplement them
Technology is a tool and as with every job you pick the right tools to get it done. At no point in
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Why not?
Are you trying to suggest that all money spent on education is wisely spent, producing useful results and better educations? If not, then it's just possible that some of the money is spent foolishly, and could be cut without doing damage to the education delivered.
Note that many western countries spend less on education than we do, for better results. If they can do it on less, why is it impossible to cut costs on our education system?
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The goal should be to improve what is going wrong instead of making what goes wrong slightly more efficient. Simply claiming to have online courses and laptops achieves these goals does not make it true.
God nows the US hardly builds anything anymore(since that's now done in India, China, god knows where)
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You can't staff a school and pay the salaries we do in the US and spend less than we do on education. My school district has about 10 administrators that earn over 100K/yr (incl Superintendent that makes $160K/yr) and 400 teachers, 100 of which earn 85K/yr (over 18 years in our district). Teacher salaries & benefits consume 2/3rds of our annual budget - the other 1/3rd covers Administrators, 5 principals, 5 school buildings, busing, electricity, textbooks, activities, etc.
Where do you propose we trim to
The Socratic Method (Score:3)
First some quote from TFA:
...Some teachers in the Los Angeles public schools, for example, complain that the form that supervisors use to evaluate teachers has a check box on whether they use technology, suggesting that they must use it for its own sake.
That is a concern shared by Ms. Rosenbaum, who teaches at Post Falls High School in this town in northern Idaho, near Coeur d’Alene. Rather than relying on technology, she seeks to engage students with questions — the Socratic method — as she did recently as she was taking her sophomore English class through “The Book Thief,” a novel about a family in Germany that hides a Jewish girl during World War II.
Ms. Rosenbaum, tall with an easy smile but also a commanding presence, stood in the center of the room with rows of desks on each side, pacing, peppering the students with questions and using each answer to prompt the next. What is an example of foreshadowing in this chapter? Why did the character say that? How would you feel in that situation?
Mr. Otter said of a teacher like Ms. Rosenbaum, “If she only has an abacus in her classroom, she’s missing the boat.”
I am a physics guy who is just as tech immersed as many posters here. But one of my main worries with the "modernization" of the educational system that is being pushed on multiple fronts these days is that it will cause us to lose touch with deeply engrained educational legacies that are at the heart of western civilization itself. I am speaking for one of the Socratic method, where we learn by constantly questioning. The type of thinking that Socrates displayed is at the heart
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It has been my unfortunate experience that most primary school instructors overly fixate on maintaining their visage of authority, and insist upon the "I tell you how it is, you don't question the validity of the information" approach to instruction.
This usually compounds into other aspects of the teacher/student interaction, such as "$foo is broken, $student must have broken it", or as my nephew once told me "I am right even when I am obviously and completely wrong, don't dare question my pronouncements. I