Japanese ATMs To Use Palm Readers In Place of Cash Cards 113
alphadogg writes "A Japanese bank this week said it will introduce ATMs that use palm scanners in place of cash cards. Ogaki Kyoristu Bank said the new machines will allow customers to withdraw or deposit cash and check their balances by placing their hand on a scanner and entering their birthday plus a pin number. The ATMs will initially be installed at 10 banks, as well as a drive-through ATM and two mobile banks. Ogaiki announced the new ATMs with the slogan 'You are your cash card.'"
Well that's cool (Score:5, Funny)
I can get my fortune read... I wonder how much that adds to the transaction fee
Re:Well that's cool (Score:4, Funny)
a fortune?
Revoking Credentials is a Bitch (Score:3)
Gotta have it done Yakuza style.
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I thought of this when I saw the headline too; I've long had issues with the whole idea of using biometics as a security feature pecisely because they can't be revoked and are, at least in the case of fingerprints, easy to compromise. But RTFS again. The bank is proposing the replacment of the card with the palm scan. That is, they're replacing the physical identification token, not the security access component. They are retaining pin numbers. You just don't have to carry a physical card around with you an
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Is it a big enough issue to stop this from working? I'm not s
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In the end, whether it's a new card or a new PIN, it's all just numbers you're changing around. The only difference is the number of numbers. So maybe if PINs were 16 digits long instead of 4...
Then it is a password, not a PIN. PINs are not passwords, they are Personal Identification Numbers. One would think that they should then be unique, but of course at 9999 combinations (and personally set) they aren't.
I am aware that in practice PINs are used as passwords, but they were not designed for that.
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If someone steals your hand, I think your bank account is the last thing on your mind.
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Yeah, I'm amazed a bank wouldn't have thought of that, considering how often they end up sending out new cards and resetting PIN numbers. Perhaps the PIN only defaults to your birthday and should then be changed.
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You have week wealth lines, So your surcharge will be $5.00
The banking system seems to be designed to punish the poor.
You didn't meet the minimum balance we will charge you.
You over paid we will charge you, a lot more.
You need to get cash we will charge you.
You need checks we will charge you.
If you have a lot of money in the bank almost all of it is free.
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
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dang you beat me to it....
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How are they going to enter a PIN with no hands?
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Cheek-print!
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If they have gone to the trouble to cut off your hand, chances are you will give them your PIN to avoid losing the other one.
(They can threaten to take your other hand, and at this point you'll believe they'd do it... because they've already got your first hand in hand.)
They can also threaten to come back if you report it or change your PIN... now you're in hiding, with only one hand, and your bank account belongs to someone else.
But hey, at least you've got your other hand? One in the hand is worth ... gu
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Thats probably one reason why they added the pin code still being needed.
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"Give me your PIN or I will cut your hand off!"
No wait...
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I've done quotes on it sometime before this, of course I can't find it.
"The difficulty with hacking biometrics is keeping the body parts alive. " --mrmeval.
I've done poetry on it:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=184870&cid=15266574 [slashdot.org]
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
That all depends on if it needs to be alive. I remember a study with gummy bears and some older fingerprint readers...
I'm not completely against biometrics, I just think they need to be thought through VERY thoroughly. I'd envision a few necessary provisions:
1) must include confirmation that body part is still attached to the living body (possibly with something like pulse oximetry? (I'd think that would be difficult to fake?))
2) must still require some form of authentication (PIN or otherwise), and should include capability for a duress code. (If your debit card is stolen, you aren't in real physical danger after the theft, if you are kidnapped and forced to go with them to the bank, you are)
3) must include provisions in case of legitimate injury to said body part. (what if I loose my hand in an industrial accident, the injury itself is bad enough, the inability to access my money would just add to an already lousy situation)
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Interesting)
Hate to reply to self, but:
4) include provisions to change if hacked. (Don't assume it's impossible, if someone manages to "copy" my hand, I want a way to have that access disabled and change to some other way of authenticating, now we get issued new debit cards, I'm not ready to change my hand if someone manages to copy it.)
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4) include provisions to change if hacked. (Don't assume it's impossible, if someone manages to "copy" my hand...
Well, you'll just get a new hand...?
All the schemes with un-changeable authentication methods are such a bad idea. Hasn't using SSN demonstrated that? And I am sure once the biometric passports are widespread, they will prove that too.
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Not necessarily, there are other ways around it, for example if your right hand is hacked, use your left, or revert to a card system, or use a retinal scan, or something else.
My point isn't that it's impossible to overcome this challenge, because I don't believe it is. My point was that this is something that needs to be taken in to account before deployment.
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for example if your right hand is hacked, use your left,
And if both hands are hacked, use the stumps...
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Well, you'll just get a new hand...?
Franchise Opportunity
You can become a Re-Hand(TM) franchisee for $0 upfront (T.A.P)
Re:In other news... (Score:4, Interesting)
I presume they are using Fujitsu's palm-vein technology (which is already in some ATMs) then #1 isn't a problem as it uses the blood flow through your hand for the reading. It doesn't read the palm print but the actual vein structure within the palm.
I have no idea in regards to how it is handled for #2, we have only really worked with companies that have done School lunch & hospital implementations in the US
For #3, they usually register both hands, although if both are damaged, they still need a backup system.
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Interesting. I'm assuming that the palm-vein technology won't read the veins properly unless there is blood actively flowing?
As for both hands, the machines I've seen (very primitive ones, so possibly not comparable) were designed for only one hand, or the other, not both (ie, everyone had to use their right hand, left hands wouldn't sit right on the scanner due to positioning of pegs designed to sit between the fingers) If it can actually read either hand, that's definitely a step the right direction (thou
Technological excess (Score:2)
How about just tougher laws against cutting peoples' hands off at the wrist instead? Just a suggestion
Re:Technological excess (Score:5, Interesting)
Doesn't work. Many studies have shown that tougher laws are rarely accompanied by any decrease at all in the activity being regulated.
The problem isn't the severity of the punishment, but the percieved likelyhood of being caught. Seems in general, once you get past a very low threshold, it doesn't matter how severe the punishment, people are either worried they will be caught, and follow the rules, or don't think they will, and break the law.
Note it doesn't matter what the actual likelyhood of being caught is, only the perception. This has been shown in places such as New York where focussing on petty crime (graffitti, jaywalking, etc) caused a reduction in more severe offences, the theory being that the Police were more visible, and more people were talking about being caught, so the perception of what you could get away with changed, even though the overall likelyhood of being caught for the higher offences was largely unchanged, and the punishments were unchanged.
Now back on topic, the sort of crime envisioned here would probably be much less likely to occur than someone stealing a debit/credit card now (It's both a phycological threshold as well as a legal threshold that you would cross from simple theft to assault causing bodily harm, and that will weed out some (most?) criminals, however the severity of the offence is significantly higher, and any criminals left in the group willing to cross that threshold will cause severe damage. That's not a tradeoff everyone is willing to make.
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I agree. We need better enforcement of laws against cutting off people's hands at the wrist. What we don't need is an over-engineered ATM machine.
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And why not? There are really only 2 ways to lower crime rates.
1) strong enforcement, this is either a) not effective, or b) extremely intrusive, or more likely c) both. Not to mention very expensive.
2) Removing incentive to commit the crime in the first place, this is relatively cheap, effective, and when done properly, non-intrusive.
You are arguing for the choice envisioned by the creators of the TSA, PATRIOT act, SOPA, etc... and you don't see why that might be an unpopular opinion on Slashdot?
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No, but in reality people rarely kill someone for their ATM card, they take the card, (and maybe the whole wallet) but usually don't do permanent damage to the victim (there are of course always exceptions). Now if they have to take my whole hand to accomplish the same thing, I'd really rather not give them an incentive to cause me bodily harm. Never mind the fact that making sure it's a living hand also stops attacks similar to the gummy bear attack used on early fingerprint readers, and you can see some d
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what if I loose my hand in an industrial accident
Good physical therapy can tighten that right back up for you.
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"Your hand or your life" (Score:1)
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Just make a sign [google.com].
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It would be 'te ka inochi'. But that has no implied meaning of 'Give me one or you loose the other'. If you wish to say, literally, 'allow me to use your hand, or I will take your life', it would be something like 'te wo tsukawasenakatara korosu yo'. Yes, agglutinating languages can create some monster words.
This just in (Score:3, Funny)
The most popular nick name in Japan, "Lefty".
Mysterious spate of hand amputations in Japan (Score:2)
Next time you get mugged in Japan (Score:2)
They won't just take your wallet but also your hand.
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PIN Number (Score:2, Funny)
Personal Identification Number Number
I assume you also meant ATM Machine?
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Re:PIN Number (Score:4, Funny)
Wow, you sound like you have a high IQ quotient.
Gummy Bear Supply Chain... (Score:5, Funny)
Gummy bear manufacturers inexplicably inundated with requests for large, softball sized gummy products.
In truth though, I really hope they are scanning the sub-dermal print rather than the surface.
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In truth though, I really hope they are scanning the sub-dermal print rather than the surface.
There are some facial recognition systems that use IR to look at capillary patterns or some such thing to prevent spoofing by photos. These systems would also fail should something (a machete) detach a limb or other organ for the bio-scan.
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those would work rather badly in countries where it gets cold in winter then?
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Ob. History Lesson (Score:5, Informative)
Malaysia car thieves steal finger [bbc.co.uk]
I see a lot of strong arm robberies (Score:1)
I foresee a large number of strong arm robberies, where they make money hand over unclenched fist.
Buddha Palm technique, anyone?
I know a ... (Score:1)
... group in South Dallas that would pop your eye out for a forty. Never mind chopping your hand off.
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Yay disease! (Score:2)
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Viruses are rarely transmitted from person to person by touching something with the hand. Unless your skin is not intact, or, after touching something, you stick some part of your hand (i.e., a finger) into some part of you not protected by intact skin (like an anus, a vagina, an eye, a nose, or a mouth), you have nothing to worry about. You're more at risk from bacteria that live on the skin's surface. A simple solution to both problems, is of course that the device sense when a hand is inserted, and re
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As far as I can remember, you're still entering your PIN with your fingers, aren't you? And everybody's using the same keypad, too. Not to mention the usual places people use as arm-rests on those machines while they wait for their card/money.
In other words: You touch stuff that was touched by other beings all the time. Our evolution was constrained by that. As such, most living things on this planet -- including you -- has a neat facility that is called "immune system". It also works almost all the time, a
Finally! (Score:2)
Hygiene and broken arms. (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to do a ton of work in a colo facility at a previous company. The colo I worked required you to use the hand scanner to get into and out of the "man trap" by the lobby. This was a problem in two ways:
1. To get to the restroom you had to go through the lobby. No telling how many people would use the restroom and then bypass washing their hands, proceeding directly to the hand scanner and back to the datacenter. You had to put your hand on a metal plate and in my 2years working in this colo, I never saw them once clean that thing.
2. About 8 months into my job, I broke my right hand and it required me to wear a hard cast. The hand scanner was not made for your left hand, but your right hand palm down due to the orientation of some plastic finger pegs. So with a broken hand, not only did I have to call security every time I needed to go through a door, but they called a VP every time i entered the facility.
So good luck if you hurt your right hand or don't want to receive the bacteria from the previous users.
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No telling how many people would use the restroom and then bypass washing their hands, proceeding directly to the hand scanner and back to the datacenter.
Compared to how many people walk around with their finger up their nostril to the second knuckle?
Wash your hands before eating lunch. Other than that, all bets are off.
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I never saw them once clean that thing.
Dude, it's Japan. A little spray nozzle comes out after each use, followed by a mini-squeegie.
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It's true. In Japan, even the ATMs wear surgical masks.
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1. The palm vein sensor works at a distance of a few inches.. you dont need to come into contact with any metal plate so your concerns about hygiene are not necessary.
2. The palm vein sensor is not left or right hand coded. You are required to enrol when you are setup on the system. At that point you can choose which hand you want to enrol using the device and software. I assume the enrol process employed by the bank would be a bit like the IRIS enrolment at airports.. That is inside the bank they would off
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No telling how many people would use the restroom and then bypass washing their hands, proceeding directly to the hand scanner and back to the datacenter.
That applies to keypads of all kinds though. At least you have the option of wearing gloves I guess. In some ways the idea of a retinal scan at a distance like in Minority Report is kinda attractive from a hygiene point of view, but simultaneously terrifying in every other respect.
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In Japan they would probably have a big bottle of alcohol hand cleaner - one of the practices I quite enjoy seeing.
ATM has palm reader? (Score:2)
ATM: "I see a tall well-dressed woman in your future. You better take out more money." (To provide some context for /. readers, "woman" is what your mom is, and when you date well-dressed ones it takes money to keep them happy. A "date" is, well, nevermind. Clean up your bedroom. As long as you live under my roof you follow my rules.)
ATM: "Your sun is in ascencion and a
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And here I was investing in the new Tea Leaves reader technology. Dammit, I'm gonna lose everything...
Adds new meaning the an already abused term ... (Score:4, Funny)
Old News (Score:2, Interesting)
Japanese banks have been using Hitachi's Jomon (finger vein) authentication system for at least five years. It sounds like Fujitsu found a way to get their inferior biometric product into a few banks.
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This - I've seen the palm reader on some Tokyo ATMs for several years now. I think its Risona or MUFJ...
Hard To Do (Score:1)
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I'll bet if you dip the stump in superglue, it'll seal it up pretty good.
What about ... (Score:2)
So will finger-chewers be able to withdraw their cash? Come to that, how about amputees? Or the remaining thalidomide generation?
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Do they tell fortunes? (Score:1)
If they are using palm readers I want to know if they will also being telling fortunes each time you make a transaction.
This is the future I envisioned (Score:2)
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My Citibank Japan card won't work in some ATMs between 9pm-8am, and not at all on Sundays or public holidays. Only in Japan...
Great (Score:2)
Great, now instead of just stealing your card they're going to hold you at gunpoint and take you to the ATM. Plus now they'll know your birthday!
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Great, now instead of just stealing your card they're going to hold you at gunpoint and take you to the ATM. Plus now they'll know your birthday!
They'd do that anyway -- how else can they check your pin number
Is being mugged at gunpoint really something you consider in your country?
A bad idea that won't go away (Score:4, Interesting)
Using biometric identification for ATMs or for building security has been tried many times, but it always turns out to be complex and unreliable. In the late 90s, banks tried to use iris scanners [lmtonline.com]. In 2001, I worked for a company that used fingerprint scanners for building access, instead of key cards. We often had to try numerous times to get a good thumbprint read, so we could get into the building.
The banks, and my company, both replaced these systems with magnetic stripes or RFID...because those technologies, while not so "cool," were more reliable and cheaper. I predict that this Japanese bank will soon be going back to the old ATM cards.
Please fix your banking system first (Score:1)
Well, this is another perfect example of fixing what is not broken, instead of improving the system. Everytime I try to get money from an ATM outside of the opening times (of the ATM, not the bank office, mind you) I have to either pay a fee, or on Sundays it is flat out impossible (ATMs running and saying they're out of order). Another example: when I want to pay something, I have to take my card to the ATM, get the money, walk with the money to the convenience store, pay in cash. Why? Why won't you just l
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Try again.. (Score:2)
This is a bad idea. Biometrics are passwords that can't be changed.
Meat Clevers: They're Not Just For Pinkys Anymore (Score:1)
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While Japanese ATMs for a long time had silly "banker's hours" (this policy has relaxed a great deal in recent years, and there are many 24-hour ATMs now), and don't cater to tourists wanting to use their credit card, functionally they've long been pretty sophisticated, way ahead of many other countries. Of course this functionality reflects the Japanese user-base: Japan is still very cash-oriented, with significantly less credit-card usage than many other countries, and the ATMs generally cater to that.
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