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Japan Technology

Japanese ATMs To Use Palm Readers In Place of Cash Cards 113

alphadogg writes "A Japanese bank this week said it will introduce ATMs that use palm scanners in place of cash cards. Ogaki Kyoristu Bank said the new machines will allow customers to withdraw or deposit cash and check their balances by placing their hand on a scanner and entering their birthday plus a pin number. The ATMs will initially be installed at 10 banks, as well as a drive-through ATM and two mobile banks. Ogaiki announced the new ATMs with the slogan 'You are your cash card.'"
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Japanese ATMs To Use Palm Readers In Place of Cash Cards

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  • by fustakrakich ( 1673220 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @07:36PM (#39651347) Journal

    I can get my fortune read... I wonder how much that adds to the transaction fee

    • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @07:38PM (#39651397)

      a fortune?

    • The funny thing is that if you go to Japan, you see these palm readers who set up shop at night on streets, with a tiny booth and everything. I immediately thought of them when I read this.
    • If it's a good fortune you might get some interest..
    • You have strong wealth lines,  So your surcharge will be $0.50.
      You have week wealth lines, So your surcharge will be $5.00

      The banking system seems to be designed to punish the poor.
      You didn't meet the minimum balance we will charge you.
      You over paid we will charge you, a lot more.
      You need to get cash we will charge you.
      You need checks we will charge you.

      If you have a lot of money in the bank almost all of it is free.
  • by bdabautcb ( 1040566 ) <bodaciouswaggler.yahoo@com> on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @07:38PM (#39651389)
    ... there has been an unexplainable increase in muggings resulting in chopping of of hands.
    • by koan ( 80826 )

      dang you beat me to it....

    • How are they going to enter a PIN with no hands?

      • i can't tell if you got whooshed or if you're whooshing me. oh well. whoosh!
      • Cheek-print!

      • by Yebyen ( 59663 )

        If they have gone to the trouble to cut off your hand, chances are you will give them your PIN to avoid losing the other one.
        (They can threaten to take your other hand, and at this point you'll believe they'd do it... because they've already got your first hand in hand.)

        They can also threaten to come back if you report it or change your PIN... now you're in hiding, with only one hand, and your bank account belongs to someone else.

        But hey, at least you've got your other hand? One in the hand is worth ... gu

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Thats probably one reason why they added the pin code still being needed.

    • by mrmeval ( 662166 )

      I've done quotes on it sometime before this, of course I can't find it.
      "The difficulty with hacking biometrics is keeping the body parts alive. " --mrmeval.

      I've done poetry on it:
      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=184870&cid=15266574 [slashdot.org]

      • by green1 ( 322787 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @08:16PM (#39651859)

        That all depends on if it needs to be alive. I remember a study with gummy bears and some older fingerprint readers...

        I'm not completely against biometrics, I just think they need to be thought through VERY thoroughly. I'd envision a few necessary provisions:
        1) must include confirmation that body part is still attached to the living body (possibly with something like pulse oximetry? (I'd think that would be difficult to fake?))
        2) must still require some form of authentication (PIN or otherwise), and should include capability for a duress code. (If your debit card is stolen, you aren't in real physical danger after the theft, if you are kidnapped and forced to go with them to the bank, you are)
        3) must include provisions in case of legitimate injury to said body part. (what if I loose my hand in an industrial accident, the injury itself is bad enough, the inability to access my money would just add to an already lousy situation)

        • Re:In other news... (Score:5, Interesting)

          by green1 ( 322787 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @08:21PM (#39651913)

          Hate to reply to self, but:

          4) include provisions to change if hacked. (Don't assume it's impossible, if someone manages to "copy" my hand, I want a way to have that access disabled and change to some other way of authenticating, now we get issued new debit cards, I'm not ready to change my hand if someone manages to copy it.)

          • by Mitreya ( 579078 )

            4) include provisions to change if hacked. (Don't assume it's impossible, if someone manages to "copy" my hand...

            Well, you'll just get a new hand...?
            All the schemes with un-changeable authentication methods are such a bad idea. Hasn't using SSN demonstrated that? And I am sure once the biometric passports are widespread, they will prove that too.

            • by green1 ( 322787 )

              Not necessarily, there are other ways around it, for example if your right hand is hacked, use your left, or revert to a card system, or use a retinal scan, or something else.
              My point isn't that it's impossible to overcome this challenge, because I don't believe it is. My point was that this is something that needs to be taken in to account before deployment.

            • Well, you'll just get a new hand...?

              Franchise Opportunity
              You can become a Re-Hand(TM) franchisee for $0 upfront (T.A.P)

        • Re:In other news... (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @08:42PM (#39652151)

          I presume they are using Fujitsu's palm-vein technology (which is already in some ATMs) then #1 isn't a problem as it uses the blood flow through your hand for the reading. It doesn't read the palm print but the actual vein structure within the palm.

          I have no idea in regards to how it is handled for #2, we have only really worked with companies that have done School lunch & hospital implementations in the US

          For #3, they usually register both hands, although if both are damaged, they still need a backup system.

          • by green1 ( 322787 )

            Interesting. I'm assuming that the palm-vein technology won't read the veins properly unless there is blood actively flowing?

            As for both hands, the machines I've seen (very primitive ones, so possibly not comparable) were designed for only one hand, or the other, not both (ie, everyone had to use their right hand, left hands wouldn't sit right on the scanner due to positioning of pegs designed to sit between the fingers) If it can actually read either hand, that's definitely a step the right direction (thou

        • pulse oximetry

          How about just tougher laws against cutting peoples' hands off at the wrist instead? Just a suggestion

          • by green1 ( 322787 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @09:01PM (#39652327)

            Doesn't work. Many studies have shown that tougher laws are rarely accompanied by any decrease at all in the activity being regulated.
            The problem isn't the severity of the punishment, but the percieved likelyhood of being caught. Seems in general, once you get past a very low threshold, it doesn't matter how severe the punishment, people are either worried they will be caught, and follow the rules, or don't think they will, and break the law.

            Note it doesn't matter what the actual likelyhood of being caught is, only the perception. This has been shown in places such as New York where focussing on petty crime (graffitti, jaywalking, etc) caused a reduction in more severe offences, the theory being that the Police were more visible, and more people were talking about being caught, so the perception of what you could get away with changed, even though the overall likelyhood of being caught for the higher offences was largely unchanged, and the punishments were unchanged.

            Now back on topic, the sort of crime envisioned here would probably be much less likely to occur than someone stealing a debit/credit card now (It's both a phycological threshold as well as a legal threshold that you would cross from simple theft to assault causing bodily harm, and that will weed out some (most?) criminals, however the severity of the offence is significantly higher, and any criminals left in the group willing to cross that threshold will cause severe damage. That's not a tradeoff everyone is willing to make.

            • I agree. We need better enforcement of laws against cutting off people's hands at the wrist. What we don't need is an over-engineered ATM machine.

              • by green1 ( 322787 )

                And why not? There are really only 2 ways to lower crime rates.
                1) strong enforcement, this is either a) not effective, or b) extremely intrusive, or more likely c) both. Not to mention very expensive.
                2) Removing incentive to commit the crime in the first place, this is relatively cheap, effective, and when done properly, non-intrusive.

                You are arguing for the choice envisioned by the creators of the TSA, PATRIOT act, SOPA, etc... and you don't see why that might be an unpopular opinion on Slashdot?

        • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward

          what if I loose my hand in an industrial accident

          Good physical therapy can tighten that right back up for you.

    • by tomhath ( 637240 )
      So hacking is a crime?
  • How do you say that in Japanese?
  • by koan ( 80826 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @07:39PM (#39651413)

    The most popular nick name in Japan, "Lefty".

  • Not sure I want my card permanently attached to me with blood and tendons and stuff.
  • They won't just take your wallet but also your hand.

  • PIN Number (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Personal Identification Number Number

    I assume you also meant ATM Machine?

  • by aaronb1138 ( 2035478 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @07:44PM (#39651483)

    Gummy bear manufacturers inexplicably inundated with requests for large, softball sized gummy products.

    In truth though, I really hope they are scanning the sub-dermal print rather than the surface.

    • by PPH ( 736903 )

      In truth though, I really hope they are scanning the sub-dermal print rather than the surface.

      There are some facial recognition systems that use IR to look at capillary patterns or some such thing to prevent spoofing by photos. These systems would also fail should something (a machete) detach a limb or other organ for the bio-scan.

      • by Kharny ( 239931 )

        those would work rather badly in countries where it gets cold in winter then?

        • Or when people get old and have poor circulation. Sorry Grandma you can't have any money I can't see the blood flowing...
  • Ob. History Lesson (Score:5, Informative)

    by StikyPad ( 445176 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @07:47PM (#39651513) Homepage
  • I foresee a large number of strong arm robberies, where they make money hand over unclenched fist.

    Buddha Palm technique, anyone?

  • by Anonymous Coward

    ... group in South Dallas that would pop your eye out for a forty. Never mind chopping your hand off.

    • As a Dallas resident, I wish to gain membership in said company in the pursuit of obtaining henchmanship within a successful super-crime organization. Is there perhaps a website or RSS feed that I could subscribe to for more details.?
  • Welcome to the newest way to catch that virus going around! High five?
    • by Anonymous Coward

      Viruses are rarely transmitted from person to person by touching something with the hand. Unless your skin is not intact, or, after touching something, you stick some part of your hand (i.e., a finger) into some part of you not protected by intact skin (like an anus, a vagina, an eye, a nose, or a mouth), you have nothing to worry about. You're more at risk from bacteria that live on the skin's surface. A simple solution to both problems, is of course that the device sense when a hand is inserted, and re

    • by Jappus ( 1177563 )

      As far as I can remember, you're still entering your PIN with your fingers, aren't you? And everybody's using the same keypad, too. Not to mention the usual places people use as arm-rests on those machines while they wait for their card/money.

      In other words: You touch stuff that was touched by other beings all the time. Our evolution was constrained by that. As such, most living things on this planet -- including you -- has a neat facility that is called "immune system". It also works almost all the time, a

  • At last, a way to profit from the disdain of the fairer sex. A little baby powder on each cheek and a night in the bar should set me up for life.
  • by HockeyPuck ( 141947 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @07:59PM (#39651671)

    I used to do a ton of work in a colo facility at a previous company. The colo I worked required you to use the hand scanner to get into and out of the "man trap" by the lobby. This was a problem in two ways:

    1. To get to the restroom you had to go through the lobby. No telling how many people would use the restroom and then bypass washing their hands, proceeding directly to the hand scanner and back to the datacenter. You had to put your hand on a metal plate and in my 2years working in this colo, I never saw them once clean that thing.

    2. About 8 months into my job, I broke my right hand and it required me to wear a hard cast. The hand scanner was not made for your left hand, but your right hand palm down due to the orientation of some plastic finger pegs. So with a broken hand, not only did I have to call security every time I needed to go through a door, but they called a VP every time i entered the facility.

    So good luck if you hurt your right hand or don't want to receive the bacteria from the previous users.

    • by PPH ( 736903 )

      No telling how many people would use the restroom and then bypass washing their hands, proceeding directly to the hand scanner and back to the datacenter.

      Compared to how many people walk around with their finger up their nostril to the second knuckle?

      Wash your hands before eating lunch. Other than that, all bets are off.

    • I never saw them once clean that thing.

      Dude, it's Japan. A little spray nozzle comes out after each use, followed by a mini-squeegie.

    • 1. The palm vein sensor works at a distance of a few inches.. you dont need to come into contact with any metal plate so your concerns about hygiene are not necessary.

      2. The palm vein sensor is not left or right hand coded. You are required to enrol when you are setup on the system. At that point you can choose which hand you want to enrol using the device and software. I assume the enrol process employed by the bank would be a bit like the IRIS enrolment at airports.. That is inside the bank they would off

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      No telling how many people would use the restroom and then bypass washing their hands, proceeding directly to the hand scanner and back to the datacenter.

      That applies to keypads of all kinds though. At least you have the option of wearing gloves I guess. In some ways the idea of a retinal scan at a distance like in Minority Report is kinda attractive from a hygiene point of view, but simultaneously terrifying in every other respect.

    • by ewok85 ( 1705550 )

      In Japan they would probably have a big bottle of alcohol hand cleaner - one of the practices I quite enjoy seeing.

  • ATM: "Hmmm, I see from your lifeline ... well, you might as well leave the money in the bank, you won't need it in about ten minutes..."

    ATM: "I see a tall well-dressed woman in your future. You better take out more money." (To provide some context for /. readers, "woman" is what your mom is, and when you date well-dressed ones it takes money to keep them happy. A "date" is, well, nevermind. Clean up your bedroom. As long as you live under my roof you follow my rules.)

    ATM: "Your sun is in ascencion and a

    • by Fjandr ( 66656 )

      And here I was investing in the new Tea Leaves reader technology. Dammit, I'm gonna lose everything...

  • by DrJimbo ( 594231 ) on Wednesday April 11, 2012 @08:08PM (#39651771)

    ... hacking.

  • Old News (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Japanese banks have been using Hitachi's Jomon (finger vein) authentication system for at least five years. It sounds like Fujitsu found a way to get their inferior biometric product into a few banks.

    • by ewok85 ( 1705550 )

      This - I've seen the palm reader on some Tokyo ATMs for several years now. I think its Risona or MUFJ...

  • These merciless banks have no concept how hard it is to beat someone down and whack off a hand and then carry it to the ATM with nobody noticing. All that hacking to get the hand off wrecks your clothes and you get all covered with blood every time. You even stand a huge chance of injury or even death if you pick the wrong person to take down and murder. What is a thug to do?
  • Friend here in the office chews her thumb. She's almost been denied entry to the States once or twice as the fingerprint-taker won't get a good reading off a nibbled digit.

    So will finger-chewers be able to withdraw their cash? Come to that, how about amputees? Or the remaining thalidomide generation?
    • by Jmc23 ( 2353706 )
      Sounds like your friend needs meds. I doubt implementers care about the small percentage of head cases.
  • If they are using palm readers I want to know if they will also being telling fortunes each time you make a transaction.

  • High five a robot and get paid.
  • Great, now instead of just stealing your card they're going to hold you at gunpoint and take you to the ATM. Plus now they'll know your birthday!

    • Or cut off your hand...
    • by isorox ( 205688 )

      Great, now instead of just stealing your card they're going to hold you at gunpoint and take you to the ATM. Plus now they'll know your birthday!

      They'd do that anyway -- how else can they check your pin number

      Is being mugged at gunpoint really something you consider in your country?

  • by Tony Isaac ( 1301187 ) on Thursday April 12, 2012 @12:07AM (#39653797) Homepage

    Using biometric identification for ATMs or for building security has been tried many times, but it always turns out to be complex and unreliable. In the late 90s, banks tried to use iris scanners [lmtonline.com]. In 2001, I worked for a company that used fingerprint scanners for building access, instead of key cards. We often had to try numerous times to get a good thumbprint read, so we could get into the building.

    The banks, and my company, both replaced these systems with magnetic stripes or RFID...because those technologies, while not so "cool," were more reliable and cheaper. I predict that this Japanese bank will soon be going back to the old ATM cards.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Well, this is another perfect example of fixing what is not broken, instead of improving the system. Everytime I try to get money from an ATM outside of the opening times (of the ATM, not the bank office, mind you) I have to either pay a fee, or on Sundays it is flat out impossible (ATMs running and saying they're out of order). Another example: when I want to pay something, I have to take my card to the ATM, get the money, walk with the money to the convenience store, pay in cash. Why? Why won't you just l

    • Why doesn't the convenience store accept your card? Because they would have to pay fees if they did, they would have to get card readers and set up a system to connect them to the network, etc. The natives are used to and comfortable with using cash, it isn't worth it to make things slightly more convenient for just you. Why don't Japanese companies accept your card? They would have to pay a fee, have a contract with the credit card company, and have a fraud prevention method in place. Amazon already has th
  • This is a bad idea. Biometrics are passwords that can't be changed.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.