Nokia Keeps Quietly Mapping The World 197
LucidBeast writes "Mapping the world isn't easy as our friends in Cupertino have found out. Google's maps seem ubiquitous, but there is a less known real heavyweight still mapping the world. Nokia acquired Navteq in 2007, and five years later they are still reading fleet data and scanning cities with LIDAR and 360 degree cameras."
AAPL could buy NOK (Score:4, Insightful)
That would solve their map problem.
They can afford it.
Everyone will be happy.
But MSFT.
Re:AAPL could buy NOK (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember getting my N95 just before the first iPhone came out. It came installed with a map app that included directions and navigation. Then a software update removed navigation and made it a paid feature. I refused to update and decided I didn't want a Nokia after that.
Nokia burned what good will they had with me. Apple is now doing the same thing to their users.
Re:AAPL could buy NOK (Score:4, Informative)
Re:AAPL could buy NOK (Score:4, Interesting)
Around the 5800, mapping, including directions and navigation, became free again.
Then MS introduced their mole, and Nokia died. Everybody who was good left back then.
What's left is everything you disliked about Nokia, led by the "spirit" of MS. (As in: On the very day where MS's probation officer for their last crime went away, they introduced that IE on the new Nokias could not be replaced, and you couldn't install any other browser [Like Opera]. *Again*)
I loved Nokia... from the tiny 8210, over the first “full computer” smartphone 7650, those with the full keyboard like the 6822, the whole early N series, and of course the glorious N900. The 5800 was the first one I didn't like. Too Apple. Too dumbed-down. Too little freedom and power.
But I *hate* everything about the MS Nokia "phones". It's like MS, as usually, imitated the worst parts of Apple, and then added their own FAIL (think Zune) to the mix. The worst of both.
Why anyone likes that, is beyond me. I would need to receive so many electric shocks, I'd be physically incapable of not drooling all over myself, *and* become a real masochist, before I could even stand that.
I'll continue to watch what that team that left Nokia is doing. I hope they're not ignoring the high-end market too much...
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I loved Nokia... from the tiny 8210, over the first “full computer” smartphone 7650, those with the full keyboard like the 6822, the whole early N series, and of course the glorious N900.
Did you love the N80, then? Fat, ugly as hell, with software that let the UX freeze for 15 seconds to display a damned application list. The N97 and N73 were even worse.
There's a reason iPhone won, despite initially not having half the feature list of the N95.
But I *hate* everything about the MS Nokia "phones".
My main criterion in whether I want to use a phone is simple: "Does it make me furious while using it?" Symbian phones mostly did. The N900 was almost there, except the maps app was a disaster, and there was little in the way of third-party apps (not e
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Similar here, I bought a nokia N series tablet, one of the advertised features was offline mapping. Nowhere did it mention anything about extra charges, Until you had bought the device and tried to use the maps to find out that they wanted over $100 more for limited time access to the maps that were already loaded on the device, and were an advertised feature of the device. I vowed right then never to buy another Nokia product.
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Except turn by turn directions were a specifically advertised feature of the product with no fine print saying it would cost hundreds of dollars more, and even that would only buy you a few years license. In fact it ended up being cheaper to buy myself a tom-tom in addition to the N810 then to activate the limited time navigation feature once. I'm still using the tom-tom. the N810 is long gone.
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Except turn by turn directions were a specifically advertised feature of the product
Where was this advertised? No review I could find mentions that they were expecting the navigation to be free. And I certainly didn't. I did some googling and did find one occurrence of an ad where it talks about GPS, which it indeed has, since I used Maemo Mapper quite successfully several times.
Without a-gps enabled, getting a GPS lock was annoyingly slow, thankfully most hotels had wifi.
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I can't speak for what they advertise now, but at the time I definitely saw turn-by-turn guidance advertised for it.
I was buying this device to replace my aging hp ipaq travel companion which came with tom-tom software pre-loaded. Unfortunately despite the N810 being far superior from a technology point of view, the choices made by nokia crippled it enough that I continued to use the old ipaq instead for many things.
Nokia was too greedy, and it lost them my business forever. They gambled, and on this custom
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I bought it as a final sale, store wouldn't take it back (I though I had researched it well enough before hand... apparently not) And as I live in North America the consumer protection laws here are pitiful.
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Weird, I distinctly remember that navigation (and maps) were a paid feature, until a few years later, when they made it free.
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Weird, considering what they did was exact opposite. Maps were a paid feature for a long time after Nokia purchased NavTeq. Then they started to feel the squeeze in smartphone market and did their "gamechanger" press release in which they announced all maps for most smart phones going fully free with free lifetime updates.
Perhaps it was some sort of an operator thing?
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Navigation [allaboutsymbian.com] was built in and came free with the phone. Then a firmware update removed the navigation feature unless you paid for it.
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The MAPS were free always. The NAVIGATION was pay to use.
If you got NAVIGATION free with initial phone, it was likely some kind of a time limited offer which expired or lost license in the firmware update. I know quite a few people who got a few months free navigation with initial purchase, such as myself (I was lucky though, as just as my license expired nokia changed policy to lifetime free navigation for my phone, but they never offered this for n95 afaik).
Re:AAPL could buy NOK (Score:5, Informative)
Re:AAPL could buy NOK (Score:4, Interesting)
Which just shows how petty they are. They would rather switch to an inferior mapping system and screw their customers than have a Google logo in the app. It isn't like the contract runs out until next year either, so they had time to improve the app before forcing it on customers.
Apple will be forced to buy someone to help with their maps. It isn't just a case of doing bug fixes. Google has Street View and vast experience gathering metadata from the web. Nokia is using LIDAR, and presumably taking photos along the way too. It takes years to develop that kind of technology and then map large parts of the world with it, so unless Apple is willing to wait that long for a half decent maps app they will have to pay someone for the data, and currently Google and Nokia are the only people who have it.
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Which just shows how petty they are. They would rather switch to an inferior mapping system and screw their customers than have a Google logo in the app.
The logo AND Google collecting user tracking information. Don't forget that bit.
The problem with the wait a year suggestion is what happens in that year? Either another year of iPhone Maps not having navigation, or adding navigation to to two different Maps apps, one for this year (The old Google Maps app), and a different one for next year (The new Apple Maps app). Duplicating work for Apple, and giving the users 2 radical changes rather than one.
Apple will be forced to buy someone to help with their maps. It isn't just a case of doing bug fixes.
Assuming by bug fixes you mean data fixes, yes it IS just a
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Latitude is an optional feature. One that would be disabled by default (since it's a "check-in" type system, it is a guarantee that it would be opt-in, not opt-out, just like it is on Android). It's not as much tracking info as you're making it out to be. So yeah, we'll all happily forget that bit. Because it's really unimportant.
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If Slashdot [slashdot.org] is to be believed, it was an either/or proposition.
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What's so wrong about that? Google should be able to get something in return for providing turn by turn navigation and all the premium features they include on their maps.
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There's nothing wrong with it. It's perfectly reasonable for Google to make that their position. It it was perfectly reasonable for Apple to have their position that it was unacceptable. They simply failed to reach a mutually acceptable position. A perfectly normal think to happen in business.
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*cough*, *cough*...which ones?
You made that one up, right?
Can you please go away? Go home!
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Here's a link to an article talking about some of the insights from sources. Sadly with things like this, there's no such thing as source d
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Ohh yes I can, but for a different reason:
Lies, blatant lies, or call them broad day thievery, for lack of a better term. Wanna know why? Here's why:
Apple's top gun on their "wonderful maps..."
"Designed by Apple from the ground up, Maps give you turn-by-turn spoken directions, interactive 3D views, and the stunning Flyover feature. All of which may just make this app the most beautiful, powerful mapping service ever."
Want proof? Fella, I didn't make this up:
Read here [cnet.com] for the act
AAPL could buy TomTom (Score:5, Insightful)
AAPL could also buy TomTom, one of the main suppliers of maps for IOS6. According to TomTom, their data is fine, but the integration of their data and other sources seems to be causing Apples problems on IOS6. Nokia has the legacy weight of a phone division, while TomTom is barely making any hardware themselves these days and is only into maps and services related to that. At the current price point, TomTom would be far more interesting for AAPL than NOK would be.
TomTom already has an extreme amount of experience in making map applications work on several platforms and they have a foot in the door with several car manufacturers that use TomTom data and applications on their on-board systems. This would give them an entrance in a market they currently are not in. How would you think "iTunes on your car" and "iOS apps on your car" would sound to most people? The first car to offer that would no doubt get a lot of publicity and sales, unless it was a true lemon. TomTom could very well be their entrance into that market and Nokia only has Navteq maps and a bunch of patents as a valuable asset. The patents are being sold off rapidly to fund the rest of the company, so the merit of that is rapidly diminishing. Putting a suffering phone division against the Navteq bit, you don't have a lot of value left I think.
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Re:AAPL could buy TomTom (Score:4, Insightful)
Given that they already have TomTom data there's no particular need to buy the company.
And a company like Apple certainly don't need TomTom's help getting into cars. Cars have long since had interfaces for iPods and iPhones to connect into and be controlled by the in car stereo. If and when Apple wants to do the type of integration you're talking about, they'll offer it to the industry, and they'll have car manufacturers competing to be first.
Re:AAPL could buy NOK (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, Apple with a bag of actual patents to abuse would make everyone happy ...
Just sayin': not me. I don't give a rat's ass what Apple or Google are up to, nor do I use either in any way. With a gun at my head, I admit I'd choose Android, but I'd root it before I trusted it enough to actually use it.
iOmess 6 (Score:5, Funny)
Re:iOmess 6 (Score:5, Interesting)
I really wish people would stop focusing on the iOS 6 Maps fiasco. It's getting old.
Plus, it's distracting from things like:
* The music app is now buggy as all hell. I've had it play one song while saying it's playing another song. Not to mention it randomly forgetting where in a playlist it was, pausing randomly skipping back to the beginning of the song, and other general wonkiness.
* If you had paused a podcast and receive a call, hanging up the call will suddenly start the podcast playing again. Surprise!
* The podcast app can't update podcasts. You can tell it to - but it won't. The only way to get new episodes is to sync with iTunes.
* Photo syncing is just hilariously broken. Rather than replacing existing photos, iTunes will just copy a new set on, leaving you with all the old photos as permanent "extra" storage. Solution: Do a factory reset. Hope you don't need any of your *other* data!
* Just try and set an alarm to 2 o'clock. [twitter.com]
* Battery life is worse.
* Apps are just generally slower - animation is noticeably "jerkier" in iOS 6.
And I'm sure other iOS 6 users can expand on this. iOS 6 is just laughably bad - even if you completely ignore the maps!
Re:iOmess 6 (Score:5, Funny)
Why do you phrase all these great new features like they're problems?
Signed,
Apple Fanboy
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Regarding the alarm bug... I notice that user is in Australia, and we started daylight saving at 2am last night... related?
Re:iOmess 6 (Score:4, Interesting)
Regarding the alarm bug... I notice that user is in Australia, and we started daylight saving at 2am last night... related?
Damn, that joke never gets old. Neither MS nor Apple can figure out how to handle time in 2012? Wow.
alias dst='zdump -v Canada/Mountain | grep 2012' /home/keeling_ dst
(0) kiak
Canada/Mountain Sun Mar 11 08:59:59 2012 UTC = Sun Mar 11 01:59:59 2012 MST isdst=0 gmtoff=-25200
Canada/Mountain Sun Mar 11 09:00:00 2012 UTC = Sun Mar 11 03:00:00 2012 MDT isdst=1 gmtoff=-21600
Canada/Mountain Sun Nov 4 07:59:59 2012 UTC = Sun Nov 4 01:59:59 2012 MDT isdst=1 gmtoff=-21600
Canada/Mountain Sun Nov 4 08:00:00 2012 UTC = Sun Nov 4 01:00:00 2012 MST isdst=0 gmtoff=-25200
"ImBECiles. Ultra-maroons!" -- Bugs Bunny.
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Sorry, "dst" is actually:
alias dst="zdump -v Canada/Mountain | grep $(date '+%Y')"
FWIW.
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While not defending MS or Apple, daylight savings time is actually bloody hard to handle.
There's a lot of data points, often manipulated by politicians, but it's not a complex problem. Give me five minutes, and I can design a db table that would handle it easily and would be simple to update for any changes. Give me ten more minutes and I'll write perl script interface to do it for mortals.
That neither MS nor Apple have figured this stuff out yet, twelve years after Y2k, is pretty funny.
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Twice a year equals constantly?
The problem is that it starts before it finishes, which is probably related to why toilets work backwards.
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You forgot one. Gangnam Style is not as catchy on iphone.
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Another reason to avoid the new release and wait for updates until things are stable. ;)
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* Just try and set an alarm to 2 o'clock.
Due to Daylight Savings time, there wasn't any 2 o'clock AM on that particular day. Nor any of the rest of that hour. For sure they should have handled the UI better for this case, but there is no lack of functionality shown here.
Given that you've clearly picked that up from the internet rather than experienced it yourself, and you're posting as AC, I expect the other items in the list to be equally repeating any old claim you can find on the internet. However much real truth there is in them.
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It's not just iOS6. The iPhone5 is seriously substandard. Purple photos [cnn.com], Apple Maps [tumblr.com], iPhone5's inability to handle LTE and data concurrently [nytimes.com], easily scratched paint [cbsnews.com], and the new docking port with $30 adaptor makes iPhone5 a real lemon...
Nevermind the actual specs. iPhone5 is slower than Samsung Galaxy S3 [extremetech.com] despite the fact that the S3 is three months older. iPhone5 doesn't have NFC. iPhone5 still has a tiny screen. iOS market share has been sliding for a while, but after a few million get burned with this de
Coincidence? (Score:3, Interesting)
After losing pretty much all of its traction in the mobile space, Microsoft has been trying desperately to build some buzz for the new Windows Phone and upcoming Windows tablets - and here we have a story about Nokia's mapping efforts.
While possibly interesting, I expect the timing of this story is, shall we say, not completely a matter of happenstance.
Despite what you think... (Score:5, Interesting)
A good friend of mine works in this department as a product manager; he has been there since they were NavTeq. You should take a look at Nokia's financials before busting out the "M$ evil" conspiracy theories. The navigation unit is the only part of the company that is profitable right now. They have excellent data (probably the best available, mention is halfway down the page [economist.com]) and they do a lot more with it than put it in phones. Basically, anybody who needs to have vetted data (ie, when salesmen need to tell clients that the data is better than what they can get online for free) to put in a product use Nokia maps. Many high-end cars with built in navigation are using them for example.
The higher-ups at Nokia know this. They are trying to leverage this to position the company for growth. Their internal mantra is that "Google is what, Microsoft is who, and we are _where_". Hence, the publicity: this is the only bright spot for Nokia and they need to milk it. If you ask me, they are grasping at straws; but the I can see the logic.
Re:Despite what you think... (Score:4, Interesting)
How does this mesh with the fact that Nokia has licensed its maps to Microsoft for use on all WP8 devices (not just Nokias)?
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Re:Despite what you think... (Score:4, Interesting)
It was pretty much the sole differentiating factor for their phones, though. Now they've licensed it out, not anymore. Why even bother with phones, then?
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Why even bother with phones, then?
There's more exclusive stuff for Lumias, but the main reason is: why go with a half-assed Windows Phone from an OEM whose main efforts are on Android? That's even diregarding hardware design and the camera capabilities in Lumia 920.
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Look at what was Acorn Computers - they were doing badly with their actual computer sales which was the core of their business and ended up disappearing, but one of their subsidiaries (Arm holdings) is now doing very well by licensing out their designs.
Perhaps the same could happen with Nokia. Moving their focus away from manufacturing complete systems and allowing departments to focus on licencing of elements that can be used by other manufacturers could turn them into a very profitable organisation. Maybe
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Apparently so [slashgear.com]. It looks like it's the complete thing.
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Re:Despite what you think... (Score:4, Insightful)
Their internal mantra is that "Google is what, Microsoft is who, and we are _where_".
Ignoring Apple there tells so much about the company...
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Unfortunately, that won't really matter to people as long as Google Maps are "good enough."
But they aren't, as anyone who tried to use them while roaming can attest. Hint: you'd better disable data in roaming except the times when it's absolutely necessary. Which is often, when you're trying to use something that tries to use caching as poor substitute for real offline maps.
Not the only respectable ones (Score:3)
Why the slashvertisment for NAVTEQ? They're not the only option out there. TeleAtlas (TomTom) is similarly licensing their map data, and is used by maps and navigation apps, particularly by or for companies who are direct competitors with Nokia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tele_Atlas [wikipedia.org]
http://www.gpsreview.net/navteq-vs-tele-atlas/ [gpsreview.net]
For the record, I have never worked for either company.
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Re:Not the only respectable ones (Score:5, Insightful)
TeleAtlas isn't to blame for most of the iPhone Maps app problems I've heard about. You can blame the map provider if a road is missing or mislabled, or an address is down the street, but that's about it.
The failed searches and missing home/business locations are a matter of Apple's POI search system being horrible (something Google does well), which switching to NAVTEQ or any other map provider won't fix for them.
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TeleAtlas isn't to blame for most of the iPhone Maps app problems I've heard about. You can blame the map provider if a road is missing or mislabled, or an address is down the street, but that's about it.
I could have sworn most of the iOS map problems were stuff like mislabeled streets and misplaced POI items. Stuff like towns entirely missing from the maps, or the inclusion of roads that don't exist in the map, or features that simply don't exist being shown (such as an entire town being drawn as a park).
I don't have much experience with Apple Maps, having only "used" the navigation feature once. It did give directions that went past where we were actually going, so that was OK - but it decided that not on
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Hard to say which is REALLY the bigger problem. But going by the CNET article, though they mentioned one map inaccuracy, mostly they complained about POI being horrid, which they say Apple is getting from Yelp.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57517404-37/apple-maps-in-ios-6-what-you-need-to-know-faq/ [cnet.com]
For the map inaccuracies I've seen, I would assume Apple's server-side software is to blame. Things like nothing but a single highway on Grand Cayman Island just reeks of the server generating the maps from s
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Google maps and navigation can be wrong, yesterday i was directed to turn right at a junction where it isn't permitted.
The solution is to report the error, for me I went to maps.google.com found the junction and clicked on the report a problem button on the bottom right corner of the map. On Street view , the no right turn sign is clearly visible.
So it shouldn't be hard to verify.
If your ignoring mapping errors then you are not helping yourself by ignoring them. You might say but i know about that error, b
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maybe they were overwhelmed with reports, I guess at apple it must be worse, google does get better they were missing a road i lived on at the time but after about a year they had found it.
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But going by the CNET article, though they mentioned one map inaccuracy, mostly they complained about POI being horrid, which they say Apple is getting from Yelp.
Getting POIs from a review site is a badly flawed idea, because they have "arbitrary" standards about who they will include (based on who pays them) that will prevent desirable POIs from making their database. If Apple is really getting their POIs from Yelp, that tells you everything you need to know about their service right there: Totally wrongheaded, complete crap. Not that we didn't know this already.
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TomTom seems to have poorer non-road data. Things like large train stations get marked as parks. Not much of a problem for sat-nav use but on a phone where you might be walking around it is.
Having used both with a dedicated sat-nav I find that TomTom tend to lag behind on updates a bit, but because they provide the data direct to their customers the updates tend to get into consumer hands before the NAVTEQ ones.
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Many of the reported problems involve things like people searching for Starbucks in a major city, and finding none. That is, without question, very simply a serious problem on their back-end.
Nokia - Lost company, with maps (Score:3)
Keeping up to date (Score:5, Interesting)
This may also explain why Google wants driverless cars, so they can fully automate the data collection.
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This may also explain why Google wants driverless cars, so they can fully automate the data collection.
There's that and there's the tens of billions of dollars that they might make over time by selling self-driving technology to car makers. Another win for Google is that people who ride self-driving cars are presumably going to spend more time watching ads than people who drive do.
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I doubt most of what you told us.
car lane "cameras" are dumb sensors last time I checked (long time ago I confess)
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That sounds like an awesome idea. You can have either the car companies or Google watching where you go, how you drive, who else you see. If they're controlling the cameras they can see what you do when you stop, within sight of a car too. Better not say anything bad about HAL unless you're indoors.
Apple could buy them (Score:3)
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Nokia has a value of $10billion and is losing money. Apple could buy them with cash.
Do you really think that would make it past anti-trust regulators?
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European anti-competition laws probably wouldn't allow it though.
LIDAR: brilliant addition (Score:2)
TFA says that Nokia's "street view" cars are also equipped with LIDAR -- this strikes me as brilliant.
In addition, they use fleets of commercial vehicles (i.e. Fedex) to complement their data and detect new "road segments".
I'd use Nokia maps in a heartbeat if it were available on Android.
Sounds impressively innovative.
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Bing pretty much completely depends on Nokia maps. You can find a semi working bing app for Android. I hope bing comes with a proper app soon, I am tried of relying on Google.
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You can use Nokia maps on your device, or on an iOS device for that matter: http://m.maps.nokia.com/ [nokia.com] Besides there's the http://www.openstreetmap.org/ [openstreetmap.org] project and it's many (also offline) navigation applications.
Did they use this LIDAR setup to make the 3D citie (Score:3)
http://maps3d.svc.nokia.com/webgl/index.html [nokia.com]
'cause, the quality doesn't seem up to that described in the article - I'd kind of assumed it was calculated from multiple angles from overhead plane flights.
Quiet? (Score:2)
Quietly? That's because they're deaf-mutes... (Score:2)
Navteq. Consistently putting my house in the wrong street since 1991
(despite complaints before map reporter and many (completely ignored) map reports over the past 8 years) (Yes, I know that map makers put in small deliberate errors as a 'watermark' to foil competitors copying their data. But having to explain the DHL van driver where my house is over and over again really gets annoying!)
Mine is on the wrong side of the road (Score:2)
Re:What about websites? (Score:5, Informative)
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Now that was truly cool. Thanks.
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AC win.
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No, it uses OSM data.
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Re:What about websites? (Score:5, Interesting)
Offline maps. When I got rid of my Nokia N8 and bought a Samsung SIII, there were two things I missed, one is the camera (the N8's was far better in several ways), the other is the maps. With the Nokia you got offline maps for the entire world and the app itself was excellent (though it had teething problems to start with). Turn by turn directions that don't sound like a robot (I'm looking at you Google), were as good as or better than most commercial Sat Nav devices, accurate (looking at you Apple), regularly updated and, I'll say it again, offline maps! In Australia at least you can be quite often out of range of a decent data connection.
The commercial Navigon app that I got bundled with my SIII is definitely inferior and you only get maps for Oceania, I have to buy the European/US ones if I need them.
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no you can't (Score:2)
google maps only allow offline maps in certain locations.
useless when you are in said locations because they all have coverage.
go overseas or to desert places and you get a nice warning about offline maps not being available.
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Yeah well you can go to a overseas desert place like Cyprus and get nothing on Nokia Maps too. Try and see.
Strikes me as unbelievable but Nokia actually did remove a whole country from its maps because of political pressure.
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Did you just compare maps lacking data to company being forced to remove data due to the longest standing internal NATO conflict?
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If you have a hate on for Google, try one of these [openstreetmap.org]. Plenty do offline maps as well.
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supl.nokia.com works fine. Don't know what you're talking about. All Nokia phones use the Nokia AGPS server.
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They are taking the jab because apple most defiantly isn't at the same level as even windows phone.
Defiantly, or definitely? I like the former, fwiw. Hahaaaaa. :-|
PS (full disclosure). I want neither an iBauble nor a WP*, but would accept a rooted Android if there were a gun pointed at my head. Just sayin'.
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Do they speak English in "fuck"?
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Do they speak English in "fuck"?
They speak German in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fucking,_Austria [wikipedia.org]
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Er, yahoo (and bing while we are it) use Nokia Maps. Do you see a difference between Yahoo maps and maps.nokia.com?