Take a Free Networking Class From Stanford 128
New submitter philip.levis writes "Nick McKeown and I are offering a free, online class on computer networking. We're professors of computer science and electrical engineering at Stanford and are also co-teaching Stanford's networking course this quarter. The free, online class will run about six weeks and is intended to be accessible to people who don't program: the prerequisites are an understanding of probability, bits and bytes, and how computers lay out memory. Given how important the Internet is, we think a more accessible course on the principles and practice of computer networks could be a very valuable educational resource. I'm sure many Slashdot readers will already know much of what we'll cover, but for those who don't, here's an opportunity to learn!"
IPv6 (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:IPv6 (Score:5, Insightful)
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Except the lower layers typically aren't your problem, or require much "design". You buy 10G equipment from a reputable vendor, and you dont worry about it. What IS important is layer 3 and layer 4 stuff - that's where people fail all the time. "can you make a DNS entry for a webserver on a different port?" "its easier if you just use the 169.254 subnet" etc.
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Do NOT skip layer 2. (Score:4, Insightful)
I disagree. If you don't learn much of the layer 2 concepts, then you'll probably never learn anything about layer 2 troubleshooting. One time I had to work on a network where they had separate discontiguous VLANs that couldn't talk to one another. I remember a while back hearing about a major hospital whose network failed because their engineers didn't understand some of the more advanced layer 2 concepts. There are also issues such as implementing measures preventing some idiot from creating switching loops that STP can't detect, e.g. cascading some $10 switches they found at wal-mart which are creating a layer 2 broadcast storm that is bringing down an entire VLAN.
Troubleshooting isn't the only thing, you also won't understand layer 2 security, which has been exploited quite a bit lately. Some easy examples would be MAC flooding and MAC spoofing, to the more severe problems like VLAN hopping, and much more that I can't think of off of the top of my head.
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No, not really, in fact I would say not even close.
IP spoofing doesn't give access to portions of the network that are blocked by layer 3 filters, and I mean properly done IP filters that will block address ranges that couldn't have come from the source interface (be it a physical one or SVI.) Even in the rare circumstances that this can be done, often times the routing tables won't handle the return traffic. Not only that, but IP spoofing can't give you access to networks that are logically isolated entire
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IP spoofing doesn't give access to portions of the network that are blocked by layer 3 filters, and I mean properly done IP filters that will block address ranges that couldn't have come from the source interface
And how does that differ from a properly configured port not allowing VLAN hopping?
Unlike IP spoofing, VLAN hopping can do all of the above, unless of course you wanted to go back to pre 2001 technology and do away with layer 3 switches, and even do away with VLAN's entirely.
You are making it sound harder than it is.
No matter how you slice it, you should NOT ignore layer 2.
Fuck you. I'm done. You are wrong. And you are lying. I never said someone should ignore layer 2. If you are going to lie to make your points, I can't think of any response short of "fuck you".
I'm not trolling or trying to be rude, that's just reality.
The reality is that, unless you quote a post where I said "You should ignore layer 2" then you are a lying troll who is lying to be rude to prove some point that nobody but you cares about.
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And how does that differ from a properly configured port not allowing VLAN hopping?
You are making it sound harder than it is.
I'm approaching this from the angle that you don't learn much about layer 2, as you suggested earlier. If you don't learn much about it, how are you supposed to know to watch for this (among other layer 2 security issues) to begin with? And if you don't know to watch for this, then how are you supposed to learn go configure it as well?
Fuck you. I'm done. You are wrong. And you are lying. I never said someone should ignore layer 2. If you are going to lie to make your points, I can't think of any response short of "fuck you".
Well the parent post to yours said "don't worry about layer 2," and you seemed to agree with it. Sorry if you don't like that interpretation, but "don't worry about it" and "i
Re:IPv6 (Score:4, Interesting)
there is a lot to talk about in terms of the physical and data link layers and plain IPv4 before even addressing IPv6.
It would be better to teach plain IPv6 before you start addressing IPv4.
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So I'm curious how, 10 years from now when we are all IPv6 native and IPv4 is used only by child porn pushers, how classes/CIDR
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You can teach RIP v2 and let everyone assume there was some older RIP that's unused, but curious students should ask why. It's hard to teach anything without teaching history. Th
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All network experts don't have to be experts in IPv4, since that is starting to dry up. If you are trying to build an IPv6 network from ground up, it would actually help that they don't have the ball&chain IPv4 thinking constraining their ideas of what is possible.
Having said that, while there are no classes as such in IPv6, you do have some ISPs offering anything from /48 to /64, which is why in Windows 7, in the IPv6 properties, one is prompted for the number of subnets. Each subnet would still ha
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if you were interviewing a "network expert" who didn't know what "class A" meant, would you trust them?
As a matter of fact, I have interviewed plenty of people on networking. To this date, I don't know if any of them know what class A meant. I asked them questions, which I considered more important. If I had come across a candidate, who knew nothing about IPv4, but did have the level of expertise I was looking for in IPv6 instead, I would have recommend he be hired. But in reality I might never have found out, as I was mainly asking questions at a higher level.
IPv4? (Score:2)
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I can't think of any basic networking class that teaches IPv6.
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My CCNA class skipped IPv6 in favour of extra security stuff because 'no-one cares about IPV6'.
I've since done some HP Networking training and exams. They're better on teaching open standards; LACP rather than etherchannel, LLDP rather than CDP, etc. However, the material still glossed over IPv6. There were very few questions on it in the exams, and if it's not in the exam, people won't learn it.
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I've learned almost all I know about networking from the Cisco Network Academy offered at a local community college. Part of the course material is to learn OSPF pretty extensively, even going as far as to explain the differences in how it handles single access or multiple access, and in doing so how the DR and DRO elections work.
There is a fair amount of coverage on EIGRP, but I would say they teach both about the same. The teacher plainly told me that you never see EIGRP in a mixed environment. However on
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I agree, Cisco has overall done a very good job in setting up their education program. I've already had on the job experience, and nearly all of what you learn is applicable to every vendor. I've even worked on brocade and HP equipment that looks and behaves remarkably similar to Cisco's IOS.
shows how 4 year degree are not for IT / desktop w (Score:2)
shows how 4 year degree are not for IT / desktop / sever / network work.
and why IT needs to be tech / trades like with out being tied to a college time table. And having teachers who are not in school for life.
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IPv6 is already deployed. Its on my Windows laptop (and has been for a couple years) and is supported by my ISP. But knowledge of IPv6 doesn't become essential until substatnial bits of the Intertubes stop using IPv4. That might well be more than 4 years away.
And even when that happens, it might well make sense for an introductory course to concentrate on a more simple model that beginners can more easily understand. I have a friend who teaches introductory assembly language as a way of helping CC students
Re:IPv6 (Score:4, Interesting)
In that case teach IPv6 and skip the parts that nobody use. IPv6 is a little bit simpler than IPv4. There is not a huge difference, but there is certainly no point in teaching an obsolete technology for simplicity, when it isn't simpler. IPv4 is not entirely obsolete yet, but judging from the number of people who think IPv6 is more complicated than IPv4, I perceive that there must be a shortage of people who understand IPv6.
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I fully agree w/ this. Given that a lot of paradigms in IPv6 are new and have nothing to do w/ IPv4 e.g. subnetting, various scopes of addressing, particularly in multiplexed addressing, link local vs site local addresses and so on, I think that newer networking courses should offer pure IPv6 courses, and then separately delve into any interoperability issues w/ IPv4. Right now, a lot of engineers' are tunnel-visioned into IPv4 based limitations, and shouldn't have to deal w/ it. Particularly, in a netwo
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Excellent idea, but... (Score:3)
Re:Excellent idea, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Probability should be taught early on at school, not waiting for university!
Rgds
Damon
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That's a pretty bad example. The Monty Hall problem is often disputed even among the very well educated, and for a time that even included Paul Erdos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem).
Being baffled by the Monty Hall problem would not seem to be a reliable indicator of poor probability education. It just shows that the Monty Hall problem, for most people, isn't intuitive *despite* being educated.
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The Monty Hall problem is often disputed even among the very well educated
No it isn't.
It just shows that the Monty Hall problem, for most people, isn't intuitive *despite* being educated.
Most things to do with probability aren't intuitive, that's the whole point in studying it. If human brains worked so that they cold analyse probablity as easily as catching a ball or walking, we wouldn't have to teach it at all.
I will never forget when I first came across the "how many people do you need in a room for it to be virtually certain two will share a birthday?" problem. I now "know" the answer, but it certainly doesn't seem intuitively right to me even now.
Graybeard. (Score:2)
Well when I went to school probability didn't even exist. :)
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I'm not being snide, I'd actually like an answer if possible.
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As for the layout of memory, I would just guess that they might talk about security and e.g. buffer overflows.
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I'm curious now...I may sign-up just to see how they'll weave these different topics together in their material.
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All of that goes beyond the realm of networking to be honest, with the slight exception of cryptography. As far as cryptography goes, you don't bother with that until you are at a more advanced level, and even then, you only need to be familiar with the names of the algorithms and the general purpose of each.
Most of what you are talking about goes in the area of computer science, and networking doesn't necessarily include computer science, and likewise, computer science in itself doesn't necessarily include
that is the college line of thinking loads theory (Score:2)
that is the college line of thinking loads of theory that for most people is not needed or is off base too top level.
Also all that knowledge is too much one size fit's all where networking can be it's own class track with people needing different levels of it based on what they are working with.
what about trades based with real on the job train (Score:2)
what about trades based with real on the job trading or at a MAX of 2 years in a pure class room.
4 years in college comes with loads fluff and filler and big skills gap. There needs to be a middle of the road from the mindless IT monkeys to the people with loads of knowledge with a big skills gap.
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Looking forward, I agree with you -- it would not be hard to figure out how to present some background material on these topics to make the course more accessible. But this is just the first time we're teaching it. We'll lear
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My (in my opinion perfectly capable) wife wanted to take this course but decided against it after reading those prerequisites.
It will take more than just free online courses for academia to overcome its walled garden and truly be more accessible. Why is something given as a prerequisite that can just as easily be explained in a couple of minutes in the first lecture?
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Why is something given as a prerequisite that can just as easily be explained in a couple of minutes in the first lecture?
Self-selection by potential students will mean that only people who know a lot about the subject or related subjects already will apply. They will then find it easy to follow, and give the college lots of great free publicity when they comment about how the course made them an expert in a couple of hours and was full of great teaching, even though they knew half the stuff already..
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I haven't read any details about the Stanford one yet, but the Cisco Network Academy I went to starts you from scratch. No need for programming, no need for understanding memory (though I am a novice programmer, the other students who had no knowledge whatsoever picked it up fine.) By the time you're done, you can easily count in binary up to 8 bits in your head.
My thought exactly (as a non-programmer) (Score:1)
I can see non-programmers like me fulfilling the first few of them, but something tells me the probability he's referring to isn't what we used back in high school or college math, and I have no idea where we would have learned the layout of memory outside of a programming class. When I took a college C programming class (which I barely passed & didn't learn from), the instructor said that handling RAM was taught in the "advanced" C class, as we needed to master the basics first; I similarly didn't see
I must be coming back from too far away... (Score:1)
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Non-programmers... on Slashdot?
What do you think IT people are?
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Non-programmers... on Slashdot? Did the demographics of the user base here change when I wasn't looking?
Despite what some people here like to think, there are other jobs and interests in life than being a full time software developer that still mean you fall under the nerd umbrella.
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Nope, you can get a certificate at the end of the course though. Stanford makes it pretty clear, they dont offer credits for these courses.
Can I sign my US Senators up for this? (Score:3)
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Well you could call your senator and tell them to take the class. You could mention how voters in the technical community would be more likely to vote for them. Or at the very least, it might help them gain respect from that voting block.
Senators, by and large, need an 'introduction to the introduction' class and, unfortunately Ted 'the Tubes' Stevens isn't with us anymore to help guide the curriculum. Judging from what comes out of Congress the days a blank chalkboard is about all we could expect most of them to be able to handle on their own.
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Well you could call your senator and tell them to take the class. You could mention how voters in the technical community would be more likely to vote for them. Or at the very least, it might help them gain respect from that voting block.
Senators, by and large, need an 'introduction to the introduction' class and, unfortunately Ted 'the Tubes' Stevens isn't with us anymore to help guide the curriculum. Judging from what comes out of Congress the days a blank chalkboard is about all we could expect most of them to be able to handle on their own.
s/chalkboard/checkbook/
If only we could deny them the writing instruments!
Interesting idea... (Score:2)
As usually said on woot "In for one".
Should prove interesting. I've been a network engineer since 94 and I'm quite honestly disgusted by people who claim to be network engineers these days who don't understand the difference between Bit/Byte, the concept of a Packet or what CSMA/CD is. Administrators I'd expect that from, they don't really need to know these things. Engineers should, IMO. These are the basic building blocks of "traditional ethernet" networks, how can I expect someone to actually design some
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I don't know about anybody who claims to be a network engineer these days other than my peers, and all of us have been through CCNA, and you can't pass CCNA if you don't know that, and a lot more.
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Last time I looked at the CCNA courses I considered it "baseline" stuff (this being back in 99/00 timeframe). But I know a number of people who say the words "Network Engineer" and yet the only "engineering" they've done is to hire a cabling contractor to lay cables and then plug them into a few switches. The phrases "Network Map" and "Site Bible" mean nothing to them. There's no documentation of the design/implementation of the network, there's usually no disaster plan, half the time a simple stupidity of
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Part of the class grade was that you had to document very well everything you did in the class labs. Not just physical and logical topology diagrams, but also a writeup of what configuration choices you made and why.
I've heard from some people who I've shown what I've done that say that what I learned was formerly only CCNP and even some CCIE material, meanwhile CCNP and CCIE have advanced much further.
Supposedly back in 2007 there was a major revision to the CCNA course material, and before that another on
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Looks like I need to reconsider the certification then. Last I honestly looked at it it was on par with Novell's CNA and Microsoft's early MCSE.. Great for getting an introduction, but not something that's going to really take you far.
I'm still finding myself wishing at times that the CNX (Certified Network Expert) program hadn't fallen apart, but when you're a program governed by various (and opposing) members of the industry I'm shocked it got out of the womb....
Thank you (Score:2)
You didn't have to do this. With Stanford's name behind you, you might even have made a fair chunk of cash selling it. But you didn't.
Thank you.
Will it be adequate training for Cisco cert exams? (Score:3)
Will this course teach enough to be useful for those who want to go into networking on a professional basis? For instance, will it enable them to pass the first of the Cisco network certifications? Will it confer enough skill and knowledge to do anything practical? Give credit or fill a prerequisite in a program that will go that far? Or is it just a feel-good class?
In my experience with Universities, "FOO for non FOO majors" and other survey classes have impressed me as snow jobs, shoveling out a lot of material in a disconnected and difficult to absorb way. They seemed directed more at giving non FOO majors an increased level of respect for specialists who have mastered the subject than to confer any useful skill or knowledge. I'm hoping this isn't another of the form.
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I don't think that's what this would be aimed at. Most of your time as a network engineer will be focused mainly on layers 2 and 3, with a bit of 4 and even less as you go up to 7. From reading the description page, it looks like they are going into layers 6 and 7 rather extensively, (namely talking about HTTP and bittorrent) though I couldn't say for certain without actually going through the course.
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Very likely NO on the Cisco certification. I was a lot into networking during university and ultimately did a lowly CCNA on the side and I can guarantee you that no training but a Cisco-specific, if not CCNA-specific training will get you through even those entry level certifications.
While the networking theory alone should be enough, the cisco, router and IOS specific questions will break your back if you haven't prepared well for them. e.g. expect to be asked situational, specific IOS commands in multiple
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The task of a university is to help your understanding of principles, not to use the technology of a particular company.
If you want a Cisco certificate, take a class from Cisco.
Yes, I agree with this. I don't like the idea of a university stumping for a vendor. Personally, I'm against these vendor-specific certifications and in my experience these vendor training programs do not necessarily produce better network admins/engineers. For the most part it is a money making scheme. I've seen some really shitty network admins and engineers that brag about their CCNA and CCNP. Learning how to do things Cisco's way does not in of itself, make a better network engineer. You have to k
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Actually I've taken the Cisco courses (which are cheap by the way if you take them at a community college like I did - I've spent less for three years worth of classes than the typical university student will spend on one semester) and they cover a lot of theory.
And contrary to the opinion of some, the Cisco courses aren't very vendor specific. Yes they target Cisco's IOS and some of their proprietary protocols (e.g. EIGRP) they are remarkably vendor agnostic. From knowing only what I learned from Cisco cou
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From knowing only what I learned from Cisco courses, I was able to start working on Brocade and HP networking equipment with no trouble at all, as they make their CLI remarkably similar to Cisco's, and from what I've heard, Huawei does as well.
Redback/Ericsson, as well, uses a virtually identical CLI except where it must change to support Redback specific features. This was done deliberately, to make it easy for people trained on Cisco gear and/or interfacing with it or porting configurations from it. It'
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I don't think I would want to learn Huawei anyways, from what I gather (both on slashdot and elsewhere) they are notoriously insecure and lack competent troubleshooting and debugging features.
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from what I gather ... [Huawei boxes] are notoriously insecure and lack competent troubleshooting and debugging features.
And then there are the analysts who believe they may contain Chinese governmental spyware.
Given that the IP theft that allegedly went into them was allegedly performed for them by the Chinese military and diplomatic intelligence network, that would be an expected reciprocal back-scratch. (Not to mention how handy it would be for domestic surveillance back home in China.)
Stop! STOP! (Score:2)
Stop creating kewl online courses that I just have to take faster than I have time to actually take them!
As an undergrad CS major (Score:1)
Probability??? (Score:2)
...the prerequisites are an understanding of probability,...
What the hell? No wonder the internet slows down for no apparent reason:
User: What are the chances of my packet getting through today?
Network admin: Eh, about 83% today. Maybe your odds will improve tomorrow.
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Seriously Slashdot, stop. Just stop.
Because computer network is something every geek is interested in?
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If you want to look at advertisements in disguise for micky-mouse schools, and cheap DIY-hacks, there are sites and s
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I know that this is going to be an unpopular statement, and I'm sure to be moderated into oblivion for saying this, but Slashdot doesn't need a bunch of advertisements for a free micky-mouse level class from a University that is pandering for some free publicity. Those of us with experience that have been in this business long enough know what it means when someone says, "Stop. Just stop."
If you want to look at advertisements in disguise for micky-mouse schools, and cheap DIY-hacks, there are sites and social networks for that, but it is unwelcome here, and we aren't prepared to lurk back into the corners of the Internet on IRC.
This is a place where a lot of professionals reside, and we are better than being lured into junk, overpriced four-year under graduate programs that leave the participants both unemployed and in-debt. It is the duty of the users of this site to mark this garbage move as what it is, a sham.
So, I was going to mod this down, as you suggested, but I couldn't resist commenting instead...
I'm not sure what you mean by "micky-mouse" (sic) and I have no idea how Stanford falls into that category. Stanford is currently rated as the #6 university in the US [rankingsandreviews.com], is widely considered one of the best STEM schools in the country, and the two professors who are leading this particular class have pretty intense resumes. Sure, tuition at the school is a little pricey, but that doesn't affect the value of free
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What does any of that have to do with Stanford profs offering a free course in networking?
[Disclaimer: I just signed up for it, and am looking forward to it. Thanks /. for the notify.]
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Dude, I got a -1. Some genius mind-reader decided I was "complaining" about the your counry (what do I gain if any good comes of some badly worded advice I gave -- a medal?)
Let's say someone really is against foreigners talking anything wrt the US. I find it foolish and would welcome any talk about my country (in fact, we're kinda focus seeking, I'd say), but, hey, whatever floats you colllective boat... kthxbai!
Sorry if my words really can be read as anything offensive. Maybe this English thing is harder t
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Dude, I got a -1.
In what? You mean /. moderation -1? BFD. :-P
Some genius mind-reader decided I was "complaining" about the your [country] (what do I gain if any good comes of some badly worded advice I gave -- a medal?)
A pat on the back? "Good job." "Better luck next time." "You suck, hoser!" "Hey, at least you spelled everything correctly." "DIE, you !@#$%%^**()_+!@#$@!!!!!"
Let's say someone really is against foreigners talking anything wrt the US. I find it foolish and would welcome any talk about my country (in fact, we're kinda focus seeking, I'd say), but, hey, whatever floats you colllective boat... kthxbai!
I talk trash about the US all the time. They deserve it! I also wish I were in Amsterdam (and a lot of other places). Sucks to be me. Crap, did I say that out loud?!?
Sorry if my words really can be read as anything offensive. Maybe this English thing is harder than I thought and I should try other languages...
I like Spanish. Habla Espanol? Que pasa? Buenos dias|tardes|noches.
I really have no idea what you're talking about, but I do love
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Can you two just get a room?
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Maybe because it's apparently being offered by Stanford directly, not their spin-off, Coursera? (There's no way Slashdot could reasonably run an article for every new Coursera class; there's tons of them now.)
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You're an idiot.
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Seconded. All in favour, say aye.
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It is the experience of being at stanford and your peers that matter. Not taking courses from the same profs.
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But for those who cannot make it to Stanford, for whatever reason, this is (likely to be) considerably better than nothing, I would have thought?
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This is better because you have a online course with a decent curriculum, assignments and exams. I wouldnt say this is better because it is from Stanford.
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This is better because you have a online course with a decent curriculum, assignments and exams. I wouldnt say this is better because it is from Stanford.
It sounds like we are in violent agreement, to be honest — that was the point I was trying to make too, in that, whilst it might not confer all the benefits of studying in person at Stanford, it should still be a high quality learning resource in its own right.
Not quite (Score:1)
It's the experience of interacting with people inside & outside the classroom that can keep up with your thoughts/knowledge, respond with ideas that challenge & invigorate you, and that share the drive to excel rather than just going through the motions. It's about finding friends and partners that understand from experience why you did things very few regular teenagers do (like spending most of your free time honing a talent as a teenager rather than goofing off), and that can tackle major project
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What these f**king morans things they are Khan (www.khanacademy.org) or what?
They think they are college-level professors that work in close collaboration with industries in Silicon Valley and who are from one of the most prestigious universities in the world. The nerve of them to offer a class for free. Who do they think they are? </rolls eyes at your blatant stupidity>
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I really hope you're being facetious, but if not, look here: Wikipedia: Stanford University [wikipedia.org]
This is /. where half the posters think they are geek, but wouldn't even recognize a prestigious high-tech university located that is, in many ways, the intellectual beating heart of Silicon Valley.
So don't even try to educate. It's like trying to teach calculus to a donkey or cactus.