Windows 8 PCs Still Throttled By Crapware 657
jfruh writes "Windows 8's Metro UI presents a clean and spiffy new interface for Microsoft's latest OS. But one of the operating system's oldest and most hated problems — crapware — still lurks below the surface. For instance, the Acer Aspire 7600U is an all-in-one that, at $1,900, is hardly a bargain-basement PC. And yet as shipped it includes over 50 pieces of OEM and third-party software pre-installed, much of which simply offer trials for paid services."
Questionable List (Score:5, Insightful)
Am I the only one that finds this list somewhat questionable?
Of the 50 items, most of it definitely fits the definition of crapware: McAfee® Internet Security Suite, WeatherBug, Wild Tangent, etc
But then there are some other items in here that have me scratching my head. When was Solitaire or Minesweeper crapware?
They seem to just be listing all non-stock software (since MS doesn't include their Metro games in the box), which is not the same as crapware.
Re:Questionable List (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, it's a lot of "crapwear". BUT, this is an OEM issue, not a MS / Win8 issue.
Secondly, is this news? Not really, it's been this way for a LONG TIME.
If you buy a system for which you don't intend on wiping and building up from zero, then you'll need to uninstall a lot of this crap. It's been this way for YEARS.
And if you DO intend on running windows, ditch the factory install and cripple-wear reinstall CD that comes with it, and buy Win8 Pro so you have the actual full CD.
None of this is news for OEM Windows systems.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Questionable List (Score:4, Insightful)
1) I totally agree.
2) Totally unneeded. Vendor updating slows computers needlessly. If there is a critical driver update, it gets pushed to MS and will be downloaded with Windows Update.
3) Sure, you can use it, but why? It runs as a background service, and (if it's like the Win7 version) as a systray app that hogs resources whether you ever use them or not. They do nothing for you that Windows can't do out-of-the-box. And why would you need a program to convert videos before uploading to youtube? Youtube accepts any standard video format, and if you have a camcorder, it would have come with software to do any necessary conversion. If it didn't, that's their problem, and not something a PC manufacturer should be concerned about.
4) Totally unneeded. Spotify makes money from you by playing ads. Their software is every bit as useless as an IE toolbar. Sure, some can have handy features, but that definitely does not make up for their unneeded bloat or the fact that they're only there to make money off of you. If someone wants Spotify features, they can download Spotify. Or maybe they could just use xbox music, a new service from MS that comes preloaded in Win8 that is exactly the same thing.
5) Maybe some folks like the features of this software better than the integrated application, but Windows 8 does have pre-loaded webcam software. It comes on the Microsoft install disk -- I purchased Windows 8 for my PC and installed it from scratch. I don't know what features it has, because my webcam unfortunately isn't compatible (the only hardware issue I've had with Win8), but it's there nonetheless.
The only software I consider appropriate for an OEM build would be the basic Windows components, Java (which is difficult thanks to licensing), and the basic Adobe suite of free software (which MS is trying to do away with, thanks to 'viewer' for opening PDFs, and Silverlight). Everything else should be installed later by the end user, including the free MS games. After all, Win8 has a large, obvious button for the market, where people can download anything that's available.
Re:Questionable List (Score:4, Informative)
You need to think about it from a typical end user's point of view. I worked in a computer (repair) shop for a few years and you would be surprised what the average person's expectation of a laptop is.
2) If there is a critical security issue with one of Acer's apps then it makes sense to have an automatic update mechanism, because the chance of the user going to Acer's web site and checking themselves is close to zero.
3) Yes, if you have a camcorder it might have the right software, but if you are just using your phone or the built-in web cam you probably won't. Uploading 1080p video can take a long time so it makes sense to reduce the file size first. Plus you might want to burn it to DVD, which again means conversion.
5) This is a good example of why OEMs include their own software. The MS app is basic and can't control all the features of the camera. It works fine for most people but the OEM will want to differentiate their webcam from the rest with extras, so they need their own app. In other words it isn't completely pointless crapware, it does actual provide some additional functionality.
People often complain about pre-installed anti-virus software as well, but consumers expect it to be there. Of course McAfee is the worst choice by far but having none isn't really an option. Can you license Security Essentials for pre-installation?
Re: (Score:3)
Hell, I bet more people would complain if Solitaire and Minesweeper were NOT included.
Crapware Is Good (Score:5, Funny)
I figure the crapware vendors pay enough to balance out the cost of MS Windows 8. Thus, when I wipe the hard disk and install Linux, I'm still breaking even.
Windows beats Android on crapware (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows beats Android on crapware.
Re:Windows beats Android on crapware (Score:4, Informative)
Root then install a 3rd party ROM. Get a direct from china device that doesn't have it in the first place.
Problem solved.
Re:Windows beats Android on crapware (Score:4, Funny)
It's so simple, I don't see why everyone doesn't do that. [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Windows beats Android on crapware (Score:4, Informative)
I think your making some big assumptions. Rooting the one x is very easy [xda-developers.com]. Worst case scenerio most of the time is you have to reflash.
Or just deal with a locked phone full of crapware...
Re: (Score:3)
Its worth it (Score:3)
I rooted my Optimus V for that very reason. The internal storage was full from just a handful of apps installed by me. It got to the point where apps could no longer update. Someone was nice enough to include all the rooting tools in a zipfile with a batch file to walk you through. After that get Titanium Backup and uninstall what you want. Just be careful because some apps are needed by the OS.
Re:Windows beats Android on crapware (Score:5, Interesting)
Or buy a Nexus [google.com] device direct from Google. Stock Android UI, no crapware, and you also get the advantage of being among the first to get the latest OS updates (when other devices might never get them).
Re: (Score:3)
Root then install a 3rd party ROM. Get a direct from china device that doesn't have it in the first place.
Problem solved.
Even just manufacturer direct, a vanilla SGS III or even a Google Nexus device. My last HTC or my GNex had no such crapware.
Re: (Score:3)
Except third party ROMs arent available for all Android phones, so this is a poor response.
Quick, find me a ROM for the fairly recent (2011) Motorola Admiral. Oh wait, you cant, because there isnt one, and its still a terrible phone with terrible crapware on it.
Re:Windows beats Android on crapware (Score:4, Informative)
That's why I bought a Galaxy Nexus from Google. No blood sucking crapware, plus I don't have a contract with the Devil.
Disable it (Score:5, Informative)
As of Ice Cream Sandwich:
- Settings / Apps / All
- Select the unwanted app/service
- Click Disable.
It's still in ROM of course, but it won't show up in the App Draw, it won't be started on boot, and it won't consume any memory or CPU time.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Unfortunately, carriers still have the ability to get into the source code and nerf this feature, forcing you to keep any bloatware they're especially keen on pushing :-( Verizon appears to be particularly guilty of this.
There are OEM-customised versions of Windows too, but thankfully we've been spared that level of "customisation".
Re:Disable it (Score:5, Informative)
If you press uninstall updates the button will then say disable. Then press that and you are good to go.
Android 4.2 fixes this by making them separate buttons.
Re: (Score:3)
So how exactly do you remove Internet Explorer, then?
Removing iexplore.exe isn't particularly difficult. Removing MShtml.dll can cause... interesting... side effects.
why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet S (Score:4, Insightful)
why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet when MS own tools are better.
Re:why Norton Internet Security or McAfee Internet (Score:5, Insightful)
Because Symantec and McAfee are businesses whose goal is to make money, regardless of how relevant they are. Theyre actually quite good at what they do, your mistake is thinking that "what they do" is to provide solutions.
We all understand the problem well (Score:5, Interesting)
This is one of those "it's good to remind people of a pervasive problem" stories. Some people accept this as "status quo" and others see it as a serious problem.
We get it. The business of PCs is stupidly tight with slim margins. The easiest way to supplement profit is to sell software installation services to software vendors. It doesn't bother the OEMs that they are doing this at the expense of the PC customer or even at their own reputation.
Commenter Sussurros above states another obvious problem. Crapware on phones... android phones. And I heartily agree. I think we will see a bit less of it soon though.
Turns out Google is changing the game. I find it FASCINATING that the Google Nexus 4 phones cost between $300 and $350 and yet T-Mobile says it costs a LOT more and will sell it cheaper if you buy two years of obligated service with expensive data plan. What surprises me the most is that T-Mobile thinks they can get away with this... worse! They *are* getting away with it. Google sold out of inventory in minutes. T-Mobile sold out in hours. There are no Nexus 4 phones.
The phone you get from Google is bloatware free and carrier unlocked. I don't know if that's the case with the T-Mobile version... anyone know?
But just as in the PC market, the phone market cannot resist the extra money (even if they are making insane profits already) they make by including crapware.
I decided long ago when my contract is up, I will do this no more. I will have my Nexus 4 when it becomes available again. I'm definitely not buying from those scalpers... sheesh... $500, $600 each?! I know there's a sucker every minute, but I'm not one of them. I'll wait a bit longer... I've got time.
Android has enabled the game to be changed. This is something that ONLY open source software could do. It's not just free software. It's FREEDOM software. I know I'm not alone in my intention. I'll spend a little more up front and save a LOT more in the long run.
I'm done with your games, carriers. Are you listening? Done!
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Nah, this is misleading (Score:4, Informative)
tl;dr version: basically Windows 8 brings a substantial improvement against bloatware in that the RT/Metro/Store side protects your CPU/memory resources from being consumed by it; but the legacy desktop side is still an unlocked experience, and vendors can install junk on there if they want to.
Re:Nah, this is misleading (Score:4, Interesting)
but the legacy desktop side is still an unlocked experience, and vendors can install junk on there if they want to.
Depends on your definition of "junk." Most of the stuff in the Windows App Store looks like junk to me, just like most of the stuff in most app stores.
Also, your definition of "legacy" must be different than mine. I've been using Windows 8 on a daily basis since shortly after it launched, and I spend all day using desktop apps. I don't really see a way that my workloads can be transferred to TIFKAM apps, either, so I pretty much just ignore the Start Screen most of the time. (FWIW, this is actually very easy to do in Windows 8, despite all the online articles screaming bloody murder about having to put up with it.)
Just uninstall it (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it annoying? I guess so... I don't really get my panties in a bunch about it; I just uninstall it and then I never have to deal with it again. Basic computer literacy, really.
Re:Just uninstall it (Score:4, Informative)
Uninstalls don't always clean well and tend to leave left overs behind. :(
Basic Psychology (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing is, when they sell to a corporate this doesn't matter. The corporation just creates their own image and drops that on every machine as standard.
The next largest market is not us techies but Joe average. Now yes, they do make money by pre installing this crapware but it also gives them an advantage. On the packaging they can show off that their machine comes preinstalled with this large list of software (highlighting various well known names). Joe average will tend to make his purchasing decision based on which machine has the largest list of features and the biggest numbers (works the same for stereos, TV's, etc). That's why all this tech comes packed with useless features that more often than not reduce the experience and performance. If you want to outsell the competition, sadly, this approach works.
This is why this trend is not going to change anytime soon.
You can win by not taking this approach (and Apple is probably the best example of this) but your product has to be well polished and typically you will be aiming for the upper market who more often than not doesn't fall for these marketing tricks.
Aggggggg yes (Score:3)
This remains much of my extended family.
Bog-standard Windows PCs at big-box store. One says "Includes over 50 programs and supports millions of Windows applications" on the box. The other says "Windows PC" on the box.
Uncle no-name: "Well, I'll take this one because it includes tons of software and is compatible with millions of programs. The other one isn't."
Me: "Those programs are all worthless, and the other one supports just as much software. They're both Windows PCs."
Uncle no-name: "Hey, free is free. A
So "Nuke and Pave", this (was) a geek site. (Score:5, Interesting)
I expect crapware. Blow away the OS and install from clean .isos using appropriate tools. I'll not detail it here, the internet is your friend.
OS replacement should be trivial for nearly every Slashdotter. Back in 1999 they even discussed such things in these very forums. (Now get off my lawn, though given continental drift it's probably somewhere in the Marianas Trench...)
If you don't know how, MANY nice folks on many forums offer their expertise for the reading. (Google "My Digital Life forums")
If you don't WANT to know how, Fark is that >>>> way.
FUD (Score:4, Interesting)
anyone read that list?
spotify was mentioned twice. minesweeper and solitaire were included.
also, all crapware from all territories appears to have been added to the same list and presented as "this is what you'll get".
consider what comes out-of-the-box on an ubuntu installation.
i'm not defending crapware at all - i hate it. but a strong case against it is not made by misrepresentation or outright lying.
there's big money in crapware (Score:4, Informative)
the big PC makers make a ton of money off those crapware distribution deals.. they make money on windows in the end, which is why you won't find a no-OS or linux PC from any of them for the same price as a windows one of the same model and specs...
i suspect windows 8 will be *worse* than earlier versions, due to having two separate user interfaces to pollute instead of just one.
Nothing to Do With Windows (Score:4, Informative)
I would like to differentiate where the problem is, and provide suggestions on how people can avoid this problem.
This is a problem with buying from certain manufacturers/retailers who add bloatware. Simply don't support this practice with your purchases. It has nothing to do with the OS. Linux and Android are just as susceptible to this if not more since the OS is open source, such as when wireless providers modify the Android OS itself(rather than simply adding applications) which can cripple the OS with bloated features, instability, or poorly designed UI. In this case you can't simply uninstall an app to undo the problem, but usually must flash the device. I'm not saying the OS being open source is a bad thing; I'm just pointing out how some carriers abuse this.
Examples of how to avoid bloatware(for phones or computers).
Phones:
-Only buy phones which come with the stock/vanilla Android OS. I personally prefer the Nexus devices for this reason. Additionally, these devices usually will have OS updates available earlier than others.
-If your phone does have a lot of bloatware, something like Cyanogen mod(if supported on your phone) can give you a OS with less bloat and more freedom. I actually flashed my Nexus One with Cyanogen and freed up alot of internal memory. Even my stock Nexus One had slowly become bloated with apps that I didn't need over time like Twitter, which came along with OS updates and could not be moved off internal storage or uninstalled. I went from 5 mb free internal storage(which is a serious problem) to 100 mb free internal storage.
Computers:
-Sometimes you can call sales and request that you get only the stock OS on your computer or laptop. I know businesses have been able to request Dell laptops be provided this way.
-Build your own computer or buy barebone, and load the stock OS yourself.
-Take note of bloatware when using other's computers, or go to a store where the model is setup and you can test drive. Take note of which manufacturers have the most OEM bloatware. If you are used to helping other's with their computers, it is usually pretty obvious what apps are things they didn't install, and are bloatware.
-Be wary of a computer that advertises lots of free software. If it is really full version software, then you are paying for its cost somewhere in the price of the computer. Better to buy a computer without this hidden cost, and use the savings to buy the software that you pick out(instead of the OEM's choices). If it is only trial software, then maybe the computer is a very tiny bit cheaper as a result, and your time is probably worth more than the trouble of dealing with the bloatware and "Trial Expired" popups. So either way, avoid bundled software. I don't even like bundled antivirus.
misleading article title (Score:4, Insightful)
Come again? But yes (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Get a signature PC (Score:5, Interesting)
I had to install some medical software on a new laptop* for a client. After dealing with many problems, I still had an amateur OS with skype, weather, stock quotes and other totally irrelevant crap. Forget about the third party crapware, Win8 is built around crapware...
Windows 8 is NOT designed for serious work.
*Yes they supplied the laptop, if I had my way, it would have been Win7.
Re:Get a signature PC (Score:4, Interesting)
After dealing with many problems, I still had an amateur OS with skype, weather, stock quotes and other totally irrelevant crap.
Skype doesn't come pre-installed, so you had to volitionally install it from the store. Moreover, even the pre-installed metro apps can be un-installed with two mouse clicks from the start screen, so if you were left with those you can't have been too worried about them.
Re:Get a signature PC (Score:5, Informative)
Skype doesn't come pre-installed, so you had to volitionally install it from the store.
Nope, that's not true.
"Skype for Windows 8 will be in the Windows Store on October 26, the day Windows 8 and its ARM-based sibling, Windows RT, are generally available. Skype for Windows 8 also will be preinstalled on "the top 12 Windows OEMs' machines," Skype officials said."
http://www.zdnet.com/microsofts-skype-for-windows-8-to-launch-october-26-7000006145/ [zdnet.com]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There is hardware and software which is supported on Windows but has less support, or lower performance, or doesn't work at all, on the other operating systems you mentioned.
This means that for some applications, Windows is superior. Even if Windows is crap, it's simply not true to claim that another OS is "far superior to Windows in every way".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with you, but you left out the fact that one of those "applications" is Photoshop and the other 100,000 of them are what is commonly referred to these days as malware. Go ahead and try to name an actual application that "is supported on Windows but has less support, or lower performance, or doesn't work at all, on the other o
Re:Get a signature PC (Score:4, Insightful)
Do both... (Score:3)
Just don't do a dual boot. I found that it is easier and cleaner to install Ubuntu to a second hard drive and switch between the OSes from the BIOS. I don't need Windows 7 that often, but it has come in handy.
Re: (Score:3)
If you aren't using Windows for 3D Gaming, but for productivity, I've found it best to just load up Virtualbox and install Windows on a VM. It's also nice to be able to snapshot the install and revert back to a sane state at any time.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the OEM business model. Razor-thin manufacturing hardware margins mean that there's a HUGE department that does nothing but inbound deals for software product placement - this is how they get profitability. Don't expect much change. Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week. Be sure, all of this is instrumented with web-bugs and behavior-tracking galore.
Using a Windows machine will always be like this: Trapped face-up, under the urinal in Steve Ballmer's personal piss-dungeon.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4, Informative)
This is the OEM business model. ... Even with a premium PC line, they won't turn down these dollars thrust upon them from Symantec, and the online-game-of-the-week.
This is a premium PC? Well, premium price anyways, when compared to an Apple iMac [apple.com] I see a higher res screen and better graphics for less. Of course, it'll also come sans all the fingerprints on the screen, since it's not a touch screen. I think that alone is worth several hundred $ in Apple's favor, or however much you value your finger should you ever try to touch my monitor. I kid, I kid... not.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4, Insightful)
The question is - why are people buying these computers? Newegg, TigerDirect, and others sell components, online, and cheap. In an afternoon, a guy can build an equivalent computer from components, install his favorite OS, and be ready to start installing all his required software in the morning.
Why pay 100 to 1000% extra, for a compromised system?
So, maybe some slashdotters really don't understand how to turn a screwdriver. I'm sure there's kid in the neighborhood who does. Maybe your own son, daughter, niece, nephew? Give the kid fifty bucks to assemble your machine, you're still money ahead.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
The question is - why are people buying these computers? Newegg, TigerDirect, and others sell components, online, and cheap. In an afternoon, a guy can build an equivalent computer from components, install his favorite OS, and be ready to start installing all his required software in the morning.
Show me someone who can build a 1.37-inch-thick 27" touchscreen all-in-one PC "in an afternoon" and I'll show you someone who works for Acer.
With all the new system form factors coming out, I highly doubt you're going to see many classic, slapped-together tower PCs in people's homes in the near future.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess you've answered my question. If you want the latest consumer goody, and appearance is more important than performance or security, then you're stuck with whatever the vendors are offering.
If you need a secure, reliable, stable system, and you don't care very much that it looks obsolete, then you can knock together a damned good tower at a fraction of the cost that you're going to pay for the vendor's comparable version.
Re: (Score:3)
This hits the nail right on the head. Unfortunately, it's the corporate marketers that dictate what's cool, and home-built high-performance machines with clean installs of non-proprietary operating systems and zero crapware/malware ain't it.
Re: (Score:3)
I think that depends on one's definition of cool.
What's cool to me is dictated by ... me.
I find it works out better for everyone that way.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
Home Built PCs tend to follow a simple formula if you're jinxed and don't know what the hell you're doing.
Really, that's pure FUD. First, if you can't properly diagnose hardware, what the hell are you doing building a computer yourself? Second, that only happens when you don't properly select your components. The only things you shouldn't skimp on are memory modules and the PSU. Especially the PSU. Funnily, that's exactly where some of the popular manufacturers cut costs, since they can spend the same amount of money on an i3-based machine with a good PSU or an i5-based machine with a crappy PSU. Since they "hey, it's an i5" is way better advertising than "hey, it has a good part that you probably never heard of and therefore don't care about", they all go for the i5 and then you're possibly fucked on the long term because almost every part of your PC is being fed incorrect voltages (and that can be insanely hard to diagnose at home if you don't know what you're looking for). They also tend to invest as little in cooling as possible, so at most you get an extra fan. Build correctly and you can do way, way better than any manufacturer. After all, they must pay their employees and profit from sales, and no amount of black magic will let them do it while charging you as much as the cost of the components.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
to build your own, you need to keep tabs on computer hardware, install your own OS, and keep track of warantee on a dozen or so parts.
Then you have to fix it when it breaks.
Fine for me. I know far far far more, than anyone who works at level 1 help desk would ever learn in his life, this isn't everyone. Most people WANT that help desk.(part of the cost).
You also get one point of contact for warrantee. If ANYTHING breaks, they fix it. How the fuck would a n00b know a CPU/motherboard problem from a HD problem?
Then there is OS installs. Most people want to plug it in, and have it work. A prior generation preffered laptops to desktops because they couldn't figure out which holes to plug things in. Expect them to navigate a windows installer?
Fuck no. After making the mistake of building PCs for friends and family, I tell anyone who's not tech savy to just buy a computer that comes assembled, with warrantee, and tech support.(those guys don't get paid enough for doing that, an extra $200 on the tag to answer stupid n00b questions for two years), If anyone wants me to build them a PC, today its $50 on top of parts for assemble and test, and another $200, for 2 years of being able to call me on the phone and answer your stupid n00b questions.
when you buy a PC in the store, your not paying for the parts, your paying for the service.
Re: (Score:3)
maybe some slashdotters really don't understand how to turn a screwdriver.
There are actually some people in the world who don't read slashdot, and I think there are enough of them to establish a market for ready built computers.
Also, ever tried building a laptop? Unfortunately, it's not that easy to find parts that fit together as easily as with minitowers. Especially if you want a sleek ultrabook. And there are many people who are not interested in non-portable computers.
(For the record, I have built my own computers in the past, but now I'm a laptop only user due to my work.
Re: (Score:3)
Back in 07 when i bought this computer from Dell, I really wanted to build my own. I had even priced what I wanted and it would cost me around $800. Sadly, the pc I was using at the time was having random hardware failures, and as I had already spent $200 replacing bits of a 5yr old box, I figured it was time for a whole new box.
The thing was, Dell extended me $1500 in credit. So I could have waited for months, buying a piece here and there as I could afford it, or I could buy a pre-built from Dell and get
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
And they mark up for it.
Building your own, if you know what you're doing and know what you want is usually cheaper. But it does require work on your part, and while most of building a computer is pretty trivial some stuff (like correctly wiring a case to a mobo, or properly applying contact paste for a cooling fan) can really hold people back. Also, time and space.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Informative)
And they mark up for it.
Building your own, if you know what you're doing and know what you want is usually cheaper. But it does require work on your part, and while most of building a computer is pretty trivial some stuff (like correctly wiring a case to a mobo, or properly applying contact paste for a cooling fan) can really hold people back. Also, time and space.
Not really. It's hard to find as cheap parts that they use in the pre-built stuff. A quick look at NewEgg shows a Windows 7 mini-tower, AMD dual core x64, 4GB RAM, 320GB HD, AMD Radeon HD, integrated sound card, gigabit Ethernet, and 150W power supply for $229. Even if not a Cyber Monday price, picking the cheapest of everything quickly surpasses a pre-built PC these days. And for me it's difficult to pick the cheapest of every component.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
You will not come out ahead on a "cheapest of everything" PC doing it yourself - and it won't work when you put it together. You can very well come out ahead building a "workstation" - in the $1k-2k range, you generally get more for your budget, and especially better reliability, by picking top-quality parts yourself (and avoiding the very fastest anything).
You'll never built a cheaper Walmart PC than Walmart - but then, who would want such a thing?
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
To be honest, it's not worth anyone's time putting together a budget PC for themselves, in purely financial terms - they'll end up with a budget PC, and not have saved much, if any money. Budget PCs are almost disposable now. 1 month of 20 a day cigarettes costs about as much as a budget PC where I live (UK).
Building your own is more an ethos, rather than a saving money strategy. I've built my own for years, and saved a little money doing it. I've also, and more importantly IMO (getting back to the original point of the thread) avoided crapware. I hate it with a passion, and won't have it on my PC.
My system is not the best... but until yesterday (power cut) I had 2100 hours uptime. After that 2100 hours, and the obviously poor shutdown... I booted to workable desktop within 1 minute without a hitch. This is with Vista.
This is why I make my own PCs, and get the operating systems separately. The headaches, time, and irritation I avoid is worth more to me than the initial time it takes to build it.... That and the fact I like building a new PC, too.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Informative)
I helped my brother pick out a new computer this weekend. After looking at the prices of PCs in his range ($350), I decided that building him a system would be far more cost effective. Note I didn't say cheaper--it wound up being $50 more--but it's a pretty decent system all the same, and with specs significantly better than the pre-built he was looking at.
When I compare my PC to similar pre-built models, I find that the pre-builts tend to cost $800 more, and with worse hardware.
Then again, maybe my local stores just suck.
The other factor (Score:5, Insightful)
You're absolutely right when it comes to component cost. However, you don't have the full cost unless the purchaser regards their time as completely devoid of worth.
My time is valuable. I don't want to spend half a day figuring out how a heat sink retention clip works, putting the motherboard studs in the right place, but not that one hole that isn't on the board that will short it, finding out that the cheap shitbox case has 1/4 inch less clearance than it needs to for this particular CPU cooler so I have to run back to the store which is 25 minutes away, etc.
I'd rather work with the computer, than work on the computer. But then again, that's why I use a Mac Pro.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4, Insightful)
I have never, ever, in all my life spent $2k on parts for a high-end PC.
Then you're just not old enough! I remember 64K of memory costing well up to $100k (IBM System/3). I remember $10k hard drives. I remember $2k monitors... and you guys are complaining about $50 here or there for multi-gigabyte multi-gigahertz machines with terrabyte storage. Sigh. But you want to know the funniest thing? The way the computer industry is going, you are about to lose everything and you will never even realize what you had... until yeah, your devices won't be worth more than a couple bucks because they're no longer your tools, they're just devices used to spy on you in exchange for email, a very expensive phone service and angry birds.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4, Informative)
Dual core AMD x64 processor: $58. Hard drive: $59. MB: $59 with integrated AMD Radeon HD and all the extras (didn't see gig-E or USB3.0 in the first example, but you can shop around). 4GB ram: $19 (yeah, ram is that cheap). 250W PSU (couldn't even find 150W): $20. Case: $15. Total: $230 USD, right now. And that is bottom-end components, if you want anything higher, you start getting cheaper than the mass-produced stuff. This took me 1-2 minutes to find, if I shopped around I could maybe push it a bit cheaper (of course, that is with sales, but that works in your advantage since you can pick up each component separately or in combos for the best prices).
And I'm not even using any combo deals, which could drop the price a few dollars. Of course, you don't get Windows for that price, but you don't get the shovel-ware crap, either, plus you get to choose exactly what components you want to maximize without massive markups. Most of the components are likely going to be junk at that price... but the whole computer is junk at that pre-built price.
you don't want a $20 PSU in any system (Score:5, Insightful)
you don't want a $20 PSU in any system.
That is the one of the worst places to cheap out and lot's of the low end Walmart PC do have shit PSU's in them.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
I find it interesting is that every statement like this excludes (or more frequently, omits) the cost ($80-100 or higher) of a legal Windows installation. Most people run Windows, and prefer it to be legal. Then you have to tack on labor - even if you only count active work to build it, it still takes a fair amount of time. Combine that with the illusion of support and warranty, and those $300 PCs (probably closer to the $260 ones) are a more attractive option for most people.
Plus, I've seen a lot of self-built PCs. Biostar boards, Apex (or worse) PSUs, unbranded RAM, and no testing. Almost all would've gotten a better product if they'd just bought something off the shelf- even Acer makes better systems than that. Granted, I've seen DIY systems with ASUS/Gigabyte/etc, but those tend to be even more expensive.
The only market segment where it makes financial sense is the high-end of the market. All major OEMs have razor-thin profit margins on the low-end. They make their real money on the high-end. When you get to the $1000 range, you can build a substantially better machine for a lower price, Windows and all.
Re: (Score:3)
Below would be a better option (for me) than the one you're referring to [newegg.com] which is an AMD E-350 (Intel Atom comparable).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103873 [newegg.com]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130630 [newegg.com]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148538 [newegg.com]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811353007 [newegg.com]
http://www.newegg. [newegg.com]
Re: (Score:3)
Building your own only works for desktops.
Non-geeks exclusively buy laptops.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Informative)
You can get a laptop built to your specs with vendors like Pioneer. http://pioneercomputers.com.au/products/categories.asp?c1=3 [pioneercomputers.com.au]. They used to give you the option of Ubuntu pre-installed, but even now you can avoid the Microsoft tax by not selecting an OS.
To my mind, this is how all laptops should be offered.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Funny)
Son, I've been married for a while now. The trick with the wife is to buy what you want and then worry about it later.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Funny)
Which wife is it now - your second or your third?
Re: (Score:3)
Huh? Building your own costs more. OEMs get huge volume discounts on hardware and software.
For a dplicate machine, yes but onl in the lower end. (Sry typos slow phone) For what you actually want, absolutely not.
Re: (Score:3)
The kicker is the fact that any parts you throw together in some frankenbox are bound to be superior to what an OEM will try to sell you. This is partially due to you actually knowing what's in the box and the fact that franken-parts are geared towards people who know what they are doing.
"huge volume discounts" are mostly on the software YOU DON'T WANT.
As far as the rest goes: you're probably better off with a clean copy anyways ( system builder license).
Sometimes you get what you pay for and the cost of an
Re: (Score:3)
I'm not sure what this has to do with Windows. There is nothing about Linux that prevents OEM's from loading software of their choosing.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4, Insightful)
Linux has package management. That makes it simple to remove crapware, and therefore less profitable to add it.
Re: (Score:3)
Windows also has package management - has for many years. Crapware doesn't play by the rules.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to use Windows you're often stuck with a choice between using the OEM crapware installation or paying for a new retail copy of Windows. Whereas on Linux a clean reinstall is generally free.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, I'm serious. But if my comment is as moronic as you seem to think it is, maybe you can actually help me. I have a couple of computers here which came with OEM crapware Windows and no clean install media (only the option to create crapware recovery discs). How do I get a free, legal, clean Windows installation?
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4)
Has something changed there? Because in the past Microsoft has been quite clear that the OEM license on your machine does not permit you to download a retail copy from wherever you want to install it, and being that the only Windows CD that comes with most machines is the restore CD (which is loaded with all the garbage) I'd love to hear how exactly you are supposed to legally acquire a clean copy of Windows to install on that machine that came with the OEM version on a restore CD (not an install CD)
Re: (Score:3)
You also have to buy into the idea that Windows can be 'cleaned'. It's kind of like believing that you can trust your system after a virus infection. It just needs to be wiped and rebuilt regardless.
THAT is not going to be faster than doing Linux from scratch.
The idea that you can "clean windows" is just the kind of wishful thinking that causes Internet crippling malware outbreaks.
PC Decrapifier (Score:3)
Re:Nothing new here (Score:5, Funny)
I know this is "computing myths of the 90s" month on /., but that's particularly old school.
Re: (Score:3)
computing myths? windows does hardware checks to make sure that it god forbid, has been moved between computers?, still contains drm for media, and requires install keys a form of drm for the os? still has a habit of only patching security wholes that they absolutely have to? or say that the whole will be patched in the next version instead of fixing the problems? have they been getting better about security yes but they are far from the security level of you average linux desktop.
myth? i think not.
Re:Nothing new here (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually I got a new Dell (windows 7 and no UEFI) and it didn't come with that much crap. McAfee 15 month trial, some disk-in-the-cloud for a year, and Dell utilities. I don't think I've seen a desktop prepopulated with lots of crapware and url links for over a decade.
Re: (Score:3)
I ordered one recently too, they now have a "none" selection for the McAfee. So you can buy it, get the trial, or not have it at all. There was very little else installed outside of the OS and the utilities included with the hardware (usable Bluray software, nvidia stuff, etc).
Re: (Score:3)
Clean Operating System CD? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Clean Operating System CD? (Score:5, Informative)
You can still do that, and you don't need a cd key to download.
It's kind of hard to find a link, but it's there. For the record, digitalrivercontent.net is an official MS CDN:
http://www.w7forums.com/official-windows-7-sp1-iso-image-downloads-t12325.html [w7forums.com]
Re:Bogged down (Score:4, Interesting)
You sure seem to have an intimate knowledge of this neighbour.
Re: (Score:3)
Christ, the crapware isn't Microsoft's fault, it's the makers of that particular computer. This is a problem on the maker side, not on the OS side. Shit, if third party makers were able to produce Macs commercially you can bet your britches they would be loaded up with crapware, too. This whole debate is moot.
Re: (Score:3)
Local jobber here in Oz - Scorptec - builds a lot of pc's for people, and you can build your system from components off their web page, and they'll match components and build it for you without charging an arm and a leg. They put a nice fast games machine together for me. I said "No crapware please" and all I got was a nod and -- no crapware. Zero trouble from the build.
It pays to know a good local outfit.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: money is addictive -duh! (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the worst pieces of crapware I've ever encountered, with regards to hijacking functionality, trampling user-defined preferences, insinuating itself into unrelated software, hogging resources, being uncooperative with attempts to uninstall, and just generally causing anguish and frustration is QuickTime. Last I checked, that's an Apple product and a Mac staple.
Re: money is addictive -duh! (Score:5, Informative)
If you're talking about QuickTime for Windows, there's a big difference between that and the QuickTime that comes with Mac OS X in terms of the things you describe.
Re: (Score:3)
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
My father was in the Japanese Occupation Force and detested the Japanese til the day he died. I went to Japan to see what he was talking about, saw it, and fell in love with the place nonetheless. I learned Japanese poetry. I talked my sister through cancer with it - she said to me "my oncologist saved me but you brought light to a dark place." The finest Japanese poetry was writ
Re:Dare I say it, as I duck my head down, Apple (Score:4, Informative)
Right click > open with > select program and check "always use this program for this kind of file." Just so you know. And you could always, like, uninstall the Word preview if you weren't planning on using it, which would solve the problem as well.
I had a similar problem on my Mac. Fucking iTunes used to try to open every movie I made in iMovie, so then a clicked the mouse a few times and told it not to. Problem solved.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The price of the machine wasn't jacked up because of the TrialWare, but the price seems unreasonably high, given so much competition at a lower price.
The extra software gives the machine perceived value, incorrect as that may be. Lots of trialware that won't last long and makes revenues for everyone not-the-retailer.
But then, the latest loads of Ubuntu have all sorts of crazyware, albeit not in the trial form. There are legacy Unix/Linux sillyness that most consumers will never, ever touch. No one pays an O