German Federal Court Rules That Internet Connection Is Crucial To Everyday Life 110
Qedward writes "Internet access is as crucial to everyday life as having a phone connection and the loss of connectivity is deserving of financial compensation, the German Federal Court of Justice has ruled. Because having an internet connection is so significant for a large part of the German population, a customer whose service provider failed to provide connectivity between December 2008 and February 2009 is entitled to compensation, the court ruled today. 'It is the first time the court ruled that an internet connection is as important a commodity as having a phone,' said court spokeswoman Dietlind Weinland. The court, however, denied the plaintiff's request of €50 a day for his fax machine not working."
Surely... (Score:5, Insightful)
If Internet is essential to everyday life, these so called "rehab clinics" where they "cure" people from the Internets are actually not "good for us" at all.
Re:Surely... (Score:5, Insightful)
If food is essential to everyday life, these so called "weight loss clinics" where they "cure" people from their food addiction are actually not "good for us" at all.
Fix'd. Even water can be bad for you if you drink it too much.
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SOME [dhmo.org] people even think it's poison!
Re:Surely... (Score:4, Funny)
SOME people even think it's poison!
That's why I only drink mountain dew.
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That's why I only drink mountain dew.
Does it have electrolytes?
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Only Brawndo has the electrolytes Germans crave.
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Time for another cheeseburger. Nom!
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If Internet is essential to everyday life,
That's all fine and dandy until power is los....
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Actually I thought about it straight away. It's hyperbole; just the sort of thing somebody on CNN might say to start a good debate.
After all, these places take away the Internet completely. If the Internet is essential, where does that lead?
Also, Re: Food and even Water, yes too much can kill you but when was the last time a geek electrocuted her/himself in the basement through too much Internet usage? Or got too fat solely because of the Internet (not lifestyle - i.e. we all know what couch potatoes look l
Re:In a rush? (Score:5, Funny)
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Personally, the internet has transformed me into a being of superhuman intelligence;
Yes, being able to google the answer is an ego-booster, but I wouldn't call it "superhuman".
induced by the heated intellectual arguments that only the internet can provide.
I'll give you the heated, but I think you've been off the internet since, uhh, 1998. That fall was pretty much the last time there was an intellectual argument to be had.
Following health advice from wise sages on blogspot has brought me to the pinnacle of human fitness as wellt
You've got less than two years to live before drinking unpasterized milk, raw eggs, and eating undercooked meat kills you. Also, you're single now, since your girlfriend left you for trying to milk her at night, saying you needed at least a liter to
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I'll give you the heated, but I think you've been off the internet since, uhh, 1998. That fall was pretty much the last time there was an intellectual argument to be had.
I thought it was September 1993. I was around for that one.
Phone / Internet (Score:2, Interesting)
You don't get compensation if your phone is out of order, why should you for internet?
What if the internet is down because the phone is? It isn't the ISPs fault but the owner of the copper.
Copper owner owes a refund (Score:5, Insightful)
What if the internet is down because the phone is? It isn't the ISPs fault but the owner of the copper.
Then the owner of the copper owes a refund to the ISP with which it signed a service level agreement.
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I have never seen a residential phone / tv / internet subscription which came with any sort of substantial SLA.
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Re:Phone / Internet (Score:5, Informative)
You don't get compensation if your phone is out of order, why should you for internet?
You do get compensation in Australia, through Service Level Agreements.
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In New Zealand it is (or at least was) 24 hours without the phone = 1 months free line rental. I know of at least one power company in New Zealand that has to pay out $50 to each affected customer if an outage on their network lasts more than 4 hours. Both of these are for residential connections.
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Must be nice. Here the power company is a monopoly. The phone company is a duopoly, Verizon and Comcast in my case. If they have a service outage about the most they will do for you is say "we are aware of the problem and will fix it as soon as possible". My personally suspicion is that they are actually sitting there reveling in their power to torment you. Frankly I am surprised that they haven't implemented a bidding system to see whose power / phone gets turned back on first, or at all.
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If I paid someone to mow my lawn, but he couldn't get his lawn mower started, am I still obligated to pay for a mowed lawn?
All this AT&T style "up-to" talk frustrates me. Imagine an airline selling tickets for seats "up to" 40 inches wide, only to find out upon boarding you get a seat four inches wide... and sometimes do not get a seat at all. How many people would settle for "AT&T talk" for airline
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Imagine an airline selling tickets for seats "up to" 40 inches wide,
I'll do you one better: Imagine an airline selling you "up to" one seat, overselling the flight and asking people to please accept a free ticket to XYZ if they volunteer to not board the flight.
Re:Phone / Internet (Score:5, Informative)
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I'd have extreme difficulty even doing two days - I telecommute 80+% of the time, and I'm paid hourly, so if my internet was out for more than a few hours, I have to go live in a Starbucks or some place with a connection I can use, or accept losing several hundred dollars. If it were out two months like this guy, I'd be suing too.
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most people have access to the internet at work, or at a public library, or a friend, or a net cafe, etc...
i would say that unless you rely on the internet for
So will my isp stop dropping me when i hit a cap? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:So will my isp stop dropping me when i hit a ca (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope the effects of this ruling eventually trickles down to my country and this type of dropping a user is made illegal.
The telcos and cabelcos have divided the country up into effective monopoly regions without the oversight that public utlities normally have. They also spend more on lobbying than any other trade group. So it ain't going to happen until something extreme happens, like a pretty blonde child dies in a way that can be directly attributed to a data-cap.
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Watching Netflix for a few hours a day is now considered abuse? Some of my family members watch more tv than that.
How could using a service advertised for media streaming in this way ever be considered abuse? If they really feel that way they should either advertise it differently (less misleading) or clearly show their limits in the advertisement.
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Just because it is an essential service does not mean you have the right to abuse it. It does not mean everyone else should cover the cost of your Netflix addiction. If you want more then you should pay for more. In my part of the world the (monopoly) ISP is happy to provide more bandwidth, at a higher price.
The typical ISP has a 95% gross margin on bandwidth. [stopthecap.com]
The only abuse here is by the ISPs.
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I hope the effects of this ruling eventually trickles down to my country and this type of dropping a user is made illegal.
AAAHAAAHHHAAAAAaaaaaaah. Good one! No, the court ruled this was basically a breach of contract because any reasonable person would expect their service provider to have repaired the outage in less than, uhh, two months. The contract you signed says "200GB cap, lulz" so no, the courts won't do anything about that. They're saying internet is a vital resource, not that you get an unlimited amount of it. It's like the roads (tada! I never disappoint slashdot! Car analogy time) -- you can drive your car on them
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There is the question of 'reasonable' though. In the car analogy, a 'road' that has a 10Kg axle weight restriction isn't a 'reasonable' road.
Re:So will my isp stop dropping me when i hit a ca (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah... there's the catch. You see, in the gool 'ol US of A, this amounts to regulation. And everyone in the good 'ol US of A knows that regulation = bad. /sarcasm off
As an American who emigrated to another country, this difference is really visible after you have been out of the USA for some time. I live in the EU, and the consumer protections are so much stronger. Much of what goes on as "normal business" in the USA is illegal here, with regard to consumer protection. Apple learned this the hard way, when they got slapped hard in several EU countries for attempting to induce customers to buy AppleCare protection when under EU law, consumers are entitled to 2 years of warranty protection, not just a single year as in the USA. Yes, I know AppleCare is more than just normal warranty coverage, but they tried to imply that without it you get only 1 year warranty which is absolutely not according to EU law and misleading to the consumer.
As another example from the mobile phone industry, it is illegal here to tie the device to the service. You are free to buy your phone from anyone, and select the operator you want. You can change operators at any time, to any other operator. Your number is portable. All it takes is a new SIM card. Of course, this is only for un-subsidized phones, but subsidized phones are quite rare here. They certainly exist and major operators offer them, but the vast majority own un-subsidized since you are crazy to buy a subsidized phone (do the math, in every case, you are paying MUCH more to the operator over the life of the phone). Thanks to this freedom of unlocked phones and the ease of switching operators, there are literally dozens of operators to choose from, in this small country with only 5.2 million people. Compare that to the US where you have at most a handful of operators to select from and all of them are universally bad compared to the operators here. I would add that the prices for service here are much lower than in the US. It's quite easy to get a basic mobile service from about $10/month, and even service with data for not much more. Oh, and what are these things called data caps again?`We don't have those. Same for our internet service.
Now, someone will chime in about educating yourself as a consumer, but we all know that most companies do not want an educated consumer, because educated consumers won't fall for their marketing tricks. Companies have proven time and again that without some amount of regulation they will act only in their best interests, which is to make as much money for their stakeholders as possible. The absence of regulation, as in the USA, lets companies get away with a lot more at the expense and detriment of the consumer.
I'm also happy to live in a country (Finland) that has granted its citizens internet access as a right. Practically everything is done electronically here, from general banking to paying bills to shopping. Nearly all government services are handled electronically as well, so not having an internet connection severely limits you.
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Subsidised phones are very common for the over twenties in the UK (~70 million people). But we get the same sort of deals as you in Finland.
I swapped provides not so long back. My number was transfered over in just under four hours.
Pay-as-you-go phones can be unlocked after six months, or after a minimal amount of credit has been added.
It's all very, very easy. Just as it should be.
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Now, someone will chime in about educating yourself as a consumer, but we all know that most companies do not want an educated consumer, because educated consumers won't fall for their marketing tricks. Companies have proven time and again that without some amount of regulation they will act only in their best interests, which is to make as much money for their stakeholders as possible. The absence of regulation, as in the USA, lets companies get away with a lot more at the expense and detriment of the consumer.
The answer is simple. Educate yourself. Don't let the company with a vested interested do that job instead.
I'm also happy to live in a country (Finland) that has granted its citizens internet access as a right.
I imagine that they don't actually legally treat it as a "right". It's just some word that you like to use in place of "entitlement". But then again, all sorts of crap is considered "rights" by some governments and who knows? Those governments might last.
Glancing at Wikipedia, I see that the current Finnish constitution has been kicking around for quite some time - since 2000 [wikipedia.org], almost 13 years ago (w
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Now, someone will chime in about educating yourself as a consumer, but we all know that most companies do not want an educated consumer, because educated consumers won't fall for their marketing tricks. Companies have proven time and again that without some amount of regulation they will act only in their best interests, which is to make as much money for their stakeholders as possible. The absence of regulation, as in the USA, lets companies get away with a lot more at the expense and detriment of the consumer.
The answer is simple. Educate yourself. Don't let the company with a vested interested do that job instead.
Yes, that is very important and I totally agree.
Also, ban business ass-rape-fest on consumers - there's no reason to trash strong consumer protection, nor trade in for US corporation protection system.
I'm also happy to live in a country (Finland) that has granted its citizens internet access as a right.
I imagine that they don't actually legally treat it as a "right". It's just some word that you like to use in place of "entitlement". But then again, all sorts of crap is considered "rights" by some governments and who knows? Those governments might last.
Yes, they might. Also, finnish strong consumer protection laws are way older than EU.
Glancing at Wikipedia, I see that the current Finnish constitution has been kicking around for quite some time - since 2000 [wikipedia.org], almost 13 years ago (with some parts coming from even earlier, in 1995)! So of course, you'd expect people with that kind of long, storied constitutional history to have a deep grasp of what should be or shouldn't be a "right".
Yeah, we probably think way differently about constitution than yanks, and it's kinda weird thing to me too, but in the end has nothing to do with out strong grasp on what is/isn't "right".
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Also, ban business ass-rape-fest on consumers - there's no reason to trash strong consumer protection, nor trade in for US corporation protection system.
Well, there's no demonstrated need for strong consumer protection. That's a reason right there. My view is that getting screwed a few times is a necessary step in becoming a smart consumer. And I'd rather have smart consumers than a herd of "protected" dumb consumers.
I know it's just not popular to defend businesses, but their interests are as relevant as the interests of their customers. Compliance with "strong consumer protection" costs money and jobs. And what's the benefit? So the consumer doesn't ha
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Also, ban business ass-rape-fest on consumers - there's no reason to trash strong consumer protection, nor trade in for US corporation protection system.
Well, there's no demonstrated need for strong consumer protection. That's a reason right there. My view is that getting screwed a few times is a necessary step in becoming a smart consumer. And I'd rather have smart consumers than a herd of "protected" dumb consumers.
There's no perfect system and you're guaranteed to get screwed a few times no matter what the consumer protection laws are. I don't see our strong consumer protection as something slowing down becoming a smart consumer but rather smart consumers with strong views as the reason we have ended up with these consumer protection laws. From my point of view what US has, for example, is strong corporation protection laws - and actual support for them by consumers - enabling corporations to more easily get away wit
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From my point of view what US has, for example, is strong corporation protection laws - and actual support for them by consumers - enabling corporations to more easily get away with screwing consumers.
Such relatively universal support to me indicates something that works.
The benefit? The consumer, especially educated one, gets to consider more relevant things about their consumer choices than "am I going to be screwed over worse by this or that company", shifting some of the burden on corporations to actually put some effort to not actively try and screw consumers over in just any way they can come up with. You said it yourself: the customers interests are just as relevant as the interests of businesses.
I don't see that connection. Strong consumer protection doesn't mean that at all. It just means that the consumer has something more of an advantage, and in my view, an undeserved one, when dealing with businesses.
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then they will just slow you down and say for X pe (Score:2)
then they will just slow you down and say for X per MB / GB / ECT we will restore your speed to full.
Don't be absurd! (Score:4, Insightful)
"Internet access is as crucial to everyday life as having a phone connection [...]"
The telcos *WISH* that having a phone connection were as crucial to everyday life as Internet access...
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"The telcos *WISH* that having a phone connection were as crucial to everyday life as Internet access..."
Where I live this has already happened.
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Having a phone connection is *exactly* as crucial to everyday life as internet access around here... because Verizon won't let you not pay for a phone line if you want internet around here. (Or rather, if you really insist, they will, but they'll charge you about 10 dollars more for not having a phone line than for having one.)
"crucial"??? (Score:2)
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Don't overlook the fact that Germans speak German, the word "crucial" was not used by them. TFA links to a German text which uses the formulations "zentraler Wichtigkeit" and "zentraler Bedeutung". It seems that "central importance" was translated as "crucial", which to me sounds quite a bit stronger. If they had meant it to be that strong I think they would have used words like "entscheidend" or "essenziell" instead of "zentral" in the original.
No teenager knows what a fax machine is today (Score:2)
and why should they... Scanners+email+internet have replaced that function, but are also what many teenagers don't know how to use.
Todays' kids take a photo with their smartphone and mms it. That's mobile phone systems, not the good old and tried internet with cables and dirt.
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unfortunately... (Score:3)
It's good when businesses are held responsible for failing to provide the service their customers are paying for.
However, it sucks that the court thinks you only deserve compensation when it is for something "essential" and if you were dumb enough not to get an alternative yourself ahead of time.
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The ruling is a bit more subtle than that. There are actually two issues.
The first is that the utility provider has a "reasonable" amount of time to fix faults, and because internet access is so vital what counts as "reasonable" is a much shorter time than say cable TV. Previously I'm sure ISPs would have liked to equate internet access with pure entertainment services like TV, rather than essential ones like electricity or phone. Additionally it's not like you can just get another ISP - often the contract
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Yes, and I think that subtlety is a bad idea and creates the wrong incentives. A court shouldn't opine on how important something is to me, or how much it costs me to replace something. Companies should be responsible for the service they provide, but they shouldn't be responsible for unusually high damages because you can't be away from work, and neither should I be penalized if my time is more flexible.
Takes a month to get installed (Score:2)