Dell Ad Says Windows 8.1 Apps Will Run On Xbox One 148
cold fjord writes "An article at DailyTech begins, 'While many people scoffed at or failed to recognized the significance of Microsoft Corp.'s talk of a "unified" development path for Windows, Xbox, and Windows Phone, the real world ramifications of that approach are now becoming clear — and they're significant. A pre-order page from Dell for the Xbox One "accidentally" (and, it appears, officially) revealed that Windows 8.1 apps will run on the Xbox.'"
A Microsoft spokesperson told AllThingsD, 'The suggestion that all Windows 8 apps run on Xbox One is not accurate," but they didn't deny that there would be some cross-compatibility. PCWorld's article has words of caution: "It would certainly be interesting if the full-blown Windows Store landed on Xbox One. But don't hold your breath for it to be there at the console's launch, no matter what Dell's words vaguely imply."
No. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't want to turn my expensive PC into a console.
And i don't want to turn my console into a half assed PC.
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I don't want to turn my expensive PC into a console.
And i don't want to turn my console into a half assed PC.
Don't worry, with Windows 8 your PC will always be fully assed.
Viruses? Oh dear... (Score:4, Interesting)
From my perspective, even though the Xbox One is limited in its capabilities as a full-on computer, malware could bring havoc upon the XBL community... This feels like opening a Pandora's Box, to me...
Welcome to last May (Score:3)
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Windows apps will Play for Sure!
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Hah! I see what you did there!
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luckily the RT metro variant isn't enough of a general purpose computer for the viruses to be a problem....
so you'll have metro apps. it's just XBL the next generation. which is exactly what is wrong with metro in the first place...
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Has there been "general purpose" malware? Or are you just talking about ATM hacks (which have nothing to do with the OS)?
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Of course some incidents were as utterly stupid as putting the things naked on the net with ports open, no firewall and no antivirus.
Re:Viruses? Oh dear... (Score:4, Interesting)
Well it was never a problem for XBox Live Indie games so I don't see why it would be a problem now.
The Windows Store is fairly well vetted much like Apple's app store, and Metro apps are fairly heavily restricted in what they can do much like XBox Live Indie Games were.
I don't think viruses will be a problem therefore, and even if malicious software got on I think with Metro's restrictions there's really fuck all it could do of any interest anyway.
The biggest concern I have is it's going to take a console, which should be a device for playing games in a simple manner and turn it into a computer which will be cluttered with all sorts of irrelevant shit. I don't want that. That's what my PC is for and to a lesser extent my tablet. All I want my console to do is be able to play games, and maybe play movies and music across my network.
If I wanted a PC in my living room, I'd stick one there.
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The biggest concern I have is it's going to take a console, which should be a device for playing games in a simple manner and turn it into a computer which will be cluttered with all sorts of irrelevant shit.
It's nothing new - the Mega CD was the first console (IIRC) that could do something other than play games, in this case play music CDs. It can even be used as a (sort of) karaoke machine, thanks to CD+G support.
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But at least that sort of functionality has still been entertainment oriented.
The point is that if you start to focus on general computing then you're detracting from the whole point of a console and doing a half-arsed job of something that PCs et. al. already do far better.
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But at least that sort of functionality has still been entertainment oriented.
The point is that if you start to focus on general computing then you're detracting from the whole point of a console and doing a half-arsed job of something that PCs et. al. already do far better.
The first megasuccess in console land was the NES, known in Japan as the Famicom, or "family computer", In Japan you could get all sorts of peripherals for it, but that didn't make Super Mario any less fun.
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Interesting and something I never knew, but I'm not sure it changes things much. Ultimately consoles became what they were because it was recognised that devices for specific purposes do better at specific purposes and that consoles are best suited to gaming and entertainment, whilst PCs are best kept for general computing. Obviously the Famicom idea died a death, presumably for exactly this reason, that all people wanted to do in their living room was play Mario such that it's not that the general computin
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You sound like the old foggies who only want their phone to make phone calls, convergence is inevitable since consoles ARE general purpose computers and it costs almost nothing to add the PC style functionality.
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Right, and you sound like the kid that's just learn the term convergence at school and doesn't really understand the practicalities of it and just wants everything to converge.
I'm all for convergence where it makes sense, but some convergence is stupid. I jumped right on the smartphone bandwagon because it was about fucking time that my mobile could decent browse the web and pick up e-mail. If however the next iteration of smartphones came with a toaster, because, well, they run hot enough when they're busy
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Could it be because, say, it's too big to fit in your pocket? If so then don't you think that means there's kind of a place for phones as well as laptops? If people want a PC in their living room then why is it only a handful of people that have PCs in their living room? Why is it even those that do mostly just use it to replicate the features of existing entertainment focussed consoles like watching media or playing games? Most people want their living room for what it has always been there for - a place to relax and entertain.
Oh dear. I really hope that you aren't in charge of anything involving strategic decisions. It takes time for ideas to mature and their time to come.
All of your arguments could be made against tablets. Who wants an expensive device that you can really only consume content on? Apparently now that a usable interface has been designed millions of people.
Consoles since the PS2/XBox haven't been primarily about playing games but rather being an entertainment hub in the living room. The XBox-360 and PS3 advanced
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"Oh dear. I really hope that you aren't in charge of anything involving strategic decisions. It takes time for ideas to mature and their time to come."
Right and you are? Because we want someone who supports the idea of bunging completely different paradigms together to create one of the many nonsense devices that have failed over the years? Again, it makes sense when it works, but doing it with everything just for the sake of it is just plain fucking stupid. FWIW I actually am in charge of making strategic
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The day consoles converge to become general purpose PCs is the day they no longer have a market because they'll always be inferior at that than PCs which are always ahead in the hardware markets.
You're missing one of the subtler points of this news: the Windows apps in question will be Metro apps, not traditional windowed desktop applications. Microsoft are looking to get mobile-style apps onto the XB1, so that the XB1 is not just a games console, but not a PC replacement. The stuff they're hoping to see on it will make it more like a set-top box, or a smart TV when you're not playing games. Convergence of games console and set-top box makes perfect sense, which is why all the last generation of co
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I hope you're right, as I say it was simply a concern so I certainly am not writing the idea off altogether, I just hope they can do it right.
Part the reason for my skepticism is they already tried the same to a lesser degree on the Xbox 360 with Facebook, and Twitter apps, provision of IE on the console and integrated search but frankly all of it sucks and certainly no one I've ever heard of, spoken to, or seen uses the Facebook or Twitter apps precisely for this reason and I don't know that any use the IE
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It's nothing new - the Mega CD was the first console (IIRC) that could do something other than play games,
It's even older than that. The Mega CD was released in 1991, but the Atari 2600 had BASIC programming in 1979 although the complexity of programs was severely limited by the capabilities of the console itself. By 1983 Coleco released an add-on for the ColecoVision which converted it into a Lovecraftian hybrid of a games console and the Adam home PC.
Many PCs of the early 80s such as the VIC-20, Commodore 64 and Atari 400/800 still had cartridge slots meaning that they could still be considered consoles ev
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I'm more confused by the fact that they made it run only RT applications instead of full on desktop x86.
Well, I understand the marketing. They all but slaughtered their desktop OS to get people make software for their shitty phone OS.
Makes me wonder if we'll see x86 windows desktop hacks on XBone soon.
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what's there to be confused about? from one they get all the user data, usage histories and installation counts and a cut of each monetary action and from the other they don't get anything...
their problem is that they want different thing than whats good for their customers. it used to be that ms was just shitty to customers of others but now they're turned shitty to their own users, thanks to strategies laid out under ballmer.
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For all the flak Microsoft gets for their app store apps, that UI seems much more conducive to a controller + Kinect interface than the mouse & keyboard desktop was. I don't know why anybody would want that, unless they were plugging a mouse and keyboard into their xbox.
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UI is sorta kinda optimized for touch. It's pretty bad for mouse and utter junk for controllers.
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Tiles seem like a good layout for controllers, voice, or gesture-based controls (and I'd be surprised if you didn't have all 3 options for the Xbone UI). Left, right, up, down, select - that's all you need with tiles. (Wonder what you enable with the Konami code?) My Samsung TV has basically the same interface, and it works OK with all those forms of input.
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Not really, no. It will take you forever to press "right, right, right" just to navigate to tile across the screen. The entire point of tiles is that you can poke your finger at any point of the screen at any given time.
This does not apply to controller input, voice input or gestures. You can do some things with voice input by making shortcuts, but that is a very limited control scheme for tiles. Other two are simply terrible.
Effectively:
Controller/keyboard = tree based menus (were all but removed from W8 i
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I disagree. If the number of things you want easy access to is small enough to fit as tiles in the first place (the big assumption), then "right, right, right" is just fine. A menu is just an N-dimensional tile system instead of a 2-dimensional tile system, after all. Plus both voice and controller can be either set up as "right, right, right" or as direct pointing, depending on dexterity.
If you really want menu trees, radial menus are better anyhow, and an analog stick is a great way to navigate those (
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Radial menus are a form of a menu tree.
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Yes, that's exactly what I said, isn't it.
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The point is that your only alternative to "dexterous people controlling stuff by spamming commands" which is pretty much opposite of good control scheme is a tree menu.
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They all but slaughtered their desktop OS to get people make software for their shitty phone OS.
Slightly OT, but I could not find a big box store in my area that carried a new PC with Win7. It was ALL windows 8 with no downgrade option.
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We have a place in town that advertises on the radio to hurry in and buy your new computer from them because they are still selling Windows 7 but won't be able to do so for long. Given all the airtime they are buying, I have to assume their are a lot of people who don't want Windows 8. I wonder what makes Microsoft think they are going to want it on their Xbox.
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I like the Win7 interface with mouse and KB, but the Metro stuff seems like a better approach to casual use with more clumsy input devices. I haven't really been looking at the Xbone, but if it has the same voice and gesture-based controls my TV has, the Metro stuff should work well with that.
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You can get your license upgraded to "pro" which in turn comes with free upgrade option to 7.
It's not advertised but it's there.
You could also just grab the OEM code from your old machine and see if that would work as well if you have one.
Please read the PCWORLD disclaimer (Score:4, Interesting)
If you're too stupid to properly understand the quote, read the PC World disclaimer article before going apeshit.
"With all your favorite Windows 8 apps..." does not mean everything will be portable - it doesn't automatically mean any app will even run as-is.
It is standard marketing horseshit indicating that some of your apps won't be available, otherwise they would have shat ALL out with bold and different colors and a brass band and fluffers for all.
I fully expect these to be a re-built subset of applications, not binary compatible but code compatible. Or if it is code compatible, then something like a "Windows CE" subset of targeted API so that certain apps will work and others won't. But I'm going with binary incompatibility for now.
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So, about the same as the Surface RT? If that's the bar they're setting, then this will doubtless be a huge success.
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If they can build the Surface RT and have it run all the Windows RT apps, then what's to stop them from allowing the X-Box One from doing the same?
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Preventing software from doing things they find either unprofitable (for MS) or naughty inside the xbone walled garden, mostly. My first thought would be game save editors and exportors, altering local keys, setting up proxies for authentication, stealing credentials or generally interacting with other software/software's memory space.
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These are also "apps", not "applications". This means these are the silly windows store things that no one uses anyway (at least not on a PC), many of which are built with Javascript instead of being native executables.
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Actually they are most probably talking about the "Windows Store apps". These contain both x86 and ARM binaries, run sandboxed, fullscreen with the Metro UI, so I see no reason you could not run them on the X1. However I also do not see much reason to be excited by this functionality - only time will tell, but I do not see huge potential in running dumbed down, simple apps on a gaming console.
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However I also do not see much reason to be excited by this functionality - only time will tell, but I do not see huge potential in running dumbed down, simple apps on a gaming console.
I think the primary goal will be in trapping the "smart TV" market sector. Having media consumption apps on a cross-platform system will give them advantages in terms of market share, and they'll be hoping that this snowballs. I suspect the end-goal is getting the TV makers to drop their own smart TV platforms and start using WinRT.
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"With all your favorite Windows 8 apps..." does not mean everything will be portable - it doesn't automatically mean any app will even run as-is.
It's false advertising, is what it is. If they're talking to me, and my favorite app doesn't run, then they're liars. And since they are claiming to be talking to me, they are liars.
This is precisely the kind of thing we should be able to successfully sue over. It's a lie. Why do we enshrine lies?
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Why do we enshrine lies?
Because the laws that should protect against such things are written by politicians. Is everything understood now?
not a dumb idea actually (Score:3, Funny)
of course this is going to happen (Score:5, Insightful)
Why does anyone think it won't?
Metro apps will be portable to Xbox One. Because Xbox One runs a variant of Windows 8/Windows Phone 8. It won't be hard.
And MS will run the system as a trusted computing system meaning you can only get the apps from their app store. And thus they'll take 30%. And they'll have full approval over all the apps to be sold.
Why did anyone think MS wasn't planning to do this? It's good business sense.
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Why does anyone think it won't?
Why did anyone think MS wasn't planning to do this? It's good business sense.
Wait what does MS planning to do something have to do with it actually working?
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It's good business sense, if you're in the Shit Sandwitch business.
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Welcome to capitalism - if you don't like it, spend three decades making your own platform and marketing it hard enough to convince the vast majority who don't make decisions on technical merit.
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Oh yes, capitalism is all about freedom of choice.
let me know when.. (Score:2)
Great News! (Score:1)
All we need now is a steam app ;)
It won't work because MS is MS (Score:3, Insightful)
A Unified development path? Oh please, if MS wanted one, they COULD have made ALL their games available for both their console AND windows AND their phones ALREADY! They don't because MS isn't a company it is a number of departments involved in century old feuds. I know MS isn't centuries old but there departments are sure feuding like their great-great-great grand-daddy's have done.
MS can't do a unified approach because it is not a unified company. Just examine its countless position changes on whether Windows is or is not a gaming platform. In a way MS is even killing itself with it. The only thing I would need windows for is gaming. No windows games? Then I could just as well run Linux or a Mac. In fact, I do run Linux because more and more games are available on Linux or at least Linux friendly.
And no, I don't own a x-box. But smart move MS, make your own platform less relevant. Oh wait, then there is Games for Windows. Oh then it is not. Why do you think Valve is going ahead with Steam OS? Because they like building a OS more then building games? No because they are fucking tired of being depended on a company that is schizophrenic about its own OS.
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A Unified development path? Oh please, if MS wanted one, they COULD have made ALL their games available for both their console AND windows AND their phones ALREADY! They don't because MS isn't a company it is a number of departments involved in century old feuds. I know MS isn't centuries old but there departments are sure feuding like their great-great-great grand-daddy's have done.
MS can't do a unified approach because it is not a unified company. Just examine its countless position changes on whether Windows is or is not a gaming platform. In a way MS is even killing itself with it. The only thing I would need windows for is gaming. No windows games? Then I could just as well run Linux or a Mac. In fact, I do run Linux because more and more games are available on Linux or at least Linux friendly.
And no, I don't own a x-box. But smart move MS, make your own platform less relevant. Oh wait, then there is Games for Windows. Oh then it is not. Why do you think Valve is going ahead with Steam OS? Because they like building a OS more then building games? No because they are fucking tired of being depended on a company that is schizophrenic about its own OS.
The only reason valve is building Steam OS is because they are now in direct competition with MS app store.
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No, the GP is right. MS didn't have a "deal" with Valve. Valve simply did what many others did - used MS OS as platform for their store.
Now MS opened a store of their own, that isn't in direct competition with Valve YET but is clearly headed in that general direction, and Valve execs can read the writing on the wall. So their only option is to make themselves independent of MS platform and push their customers off it ASAP, preferably before MS's own store becomes acceptable for its customers.
Valve isn't new
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it is direct competition right now... just not very competitive :).
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Not really. It's not really even working on being one yet. It's mainly apple style app store.
Steam on the other hand is a full on distribution system for full featured software. That's quite a bit different. But pretty much everyone expects that one MS graduates from "must copy apple" suicidal rush, it will remember that its strength lies in full featured software and that's when steam's days on windows are numbered.
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Do share, since when did any developer have to make a deal with microsoft to develop for windows?
I'm genuinely intrigued as to what kind of anti-MS bubble one must live in to believe such drivel.
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Am I dreaming or the Dell site says they are already sold out?
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Target the latest Direct X. Not hard. Valve wanted their own store because there's opportunity in curating.
He wasn't talking about the Steam store -- he was talking about Steam OS.
I submitted this (Score:1)
Horray! Metro Apps on XBoxOne! (Score:5, Funny)
It's all coming together.
The programs interfaces you don't want to use on the console you don't want to own!
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Except moving a cursor around with a controller sucks.
They could win me over, however, if they brought in the duck hunt gun as a tile selection method, made the live tiles move around the screen rapidly, and introduced "whammy" live tiles costing $1 every time they were hit. Getting to the game would be just as fun as playing it, especially if it's a crappy windows store game.
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I think the idea is that you would use Kinect as a pointer/gesture interface, seeing as every Xbox One comes with one. (Smartglass offers another alternative.)
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There's a Kinect there. That seems to lend itself to touch based UI.
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Yes, that way when the hot corners don't work you have to figure out if it's the interface that's not responding or the Kinect that's not seeing your gestures to start with.
This is so exciting! (Score:2)
I can't wait to use all of my favorite apps with an input device they weren't intended for! This will be about one step up from text input on the Wii.
Hmm... (Score:2)
Technically, my XBox 360, my BlackBerry Z10 and my son's Nintendo 3DS also run all of my favourite Windows 8 apps.
the only thing worst (Score:2)
Than a modern app with a mouse and a keyboard will be a modern app with a game controller.
My favorite Windows 8 app (Score:2)
My favorite Windows 8 app is either a previous copy of Windows 7 or any number of different Linux Distros. One of those is the first thing I always install on a new Windows 8 device. I'm pretty sure the Xbox One won't be running my favorite Windows 8 app any time soon, at least without voiding some warranty or other agreement with Microsoft.
Netflix? (Score:1)
ah... (Score:2)
So Metro apps are really for game consoles, now I get why they make so little sense on a computer.
duh (Score:2)
A clarification... don't hold your breath (Score:2)
Microsoft doesn't talk about it, but they have a fragmentation problem. They seem to have gone boldly into this new Metro era without really thinking much about what users need. They got this idea that the old Zune interface, revamped once for the Windows Phone 7, was their future direction. So now they push the phone interface onto tablets and desktops and 70" televisions. And yeah, it all looks pretty much the same, though I'm sure if I was idiot enough to use it daily, on multiple screens, I'd notice the
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The 360 is popular, & more people here run Windows than anything else I'm sure. So, why not?
I don't run Windows 8.1 - programs can be created that run interchangeably on an 8.1 computer, Windows phone, tablet, and now XBone? If that means XBox will be able to easily run apps, it's sort of cool I guess.
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But there's nothing in the store worth the effort of downloading.
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But there's nothing in the store worth the effort of downloading.
...yet. But with the XB1 users on the appstore by default, Microsoft will be hoping that they've got the inertia to get developers interested.
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The first time I actually read it, I was wondering what they were writing about, until I realized what it was and I now constantly read it mentally as XB-one... Not as X-Bone.
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Some people might then think you're talking about the first XBox, which is the old P-III based one. Personally, Microsoft didn't think the name through. I guess, names like these should be tested on a bunch of 13 year olds to figure out whether it could become misused. I know you think that "X-Bone" is what you should be reading, but I don't and I'm pretty sure many people don't read that either. I think that says more about you than anything else: As I said, it's in wide use with the MS/XBox fanbois.
On the other hand, the fact that you assume "x bone" is something a 13 year old would come up with says more about you than anything else. I can't help reading "X-Bone", and I have an image of a cartoon bone in a dog's mouth. The 13-year-old comment suggests you think something else when you see "bone"...
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On the other hand, the fact that you assume "x bone" is something a 13 year old would come up with says more about you than anything else.
Well, 13 year old boys seem to be the target market for most recent console games.
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Re:finally (Score:5, Funny)
I can totally see how a single UI paradigm will give a top quality experience when the user has:
-a mouse/trackpad, keyboard and small/medium/large non-touch screen
-a trackpad, keyboard and small touchscreeen
-a small touchscreen
-a console game controller and a TV
They totally have to complete the job and kill Windows Phone, and just ship Windows 8.2 RT for both tablets and phones.
Finally, Microsoft Word for your phone. They will blow Android out of the water.
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Re: finally (Score:1)
Don't forget to run your Whoosh 8.1 app first thing when you set up your XboxOne. Mastering the Whoosh interface really helps with everything else you'll do.
Re: finally (Score:2)
>:-}
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Exactly. The same reason Windows XP held on for so long. It did the job and continued to do the job. People were used to it and you know people don't like having to learn something new. They just want to get things done.
Re:finally (Score:5, Insightful)
Finally, Microsoft Word for your phone. They will blow Android out of the water.
The ONLY way anyone is blowing Android out of the water is if they provide a better product and give it away for free. Android isn't where it is because it's superior; it's there because manufacturers can use it for free.
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Finally, Microsoft Word for your phone. They will blow Android out of the water.
Office apps are already on the Windows Phone, at least enough functionality to make draft documents or edit documents. I'm not going to be typing lab reports with my thumbs. However, I have written short stories (4-5 pages), which the phone saves to SkyDrive and I open on my computer later.
I also made a budget in Excel on my computer. Later my wife and I couldn't remember how much we budgeted for shopping, so I opened the spreadsheet on my phone, and there it was.
Re:finally (Score:4, Insightful)
Am I the only one here who still recognizes sarcasm?
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Yes. Yes you are.
Re:finally (Score:4, Funny)
Finally, Microsoft Word for your phone. They will blow Android out of the water.
They're already half way there. They just have to figure out the "Android out of the water" part.
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MS doesn't care. Take a look at massive destruction of windows that was windows 8. They genuinely appear to not care and believe that people like you are acceptable losses in their war for mobile space.
Re:Windows 8 = What were they thinking (Score:4, Insightful)
One of the things that MS has going for it in the minds of many is that it is an OS for getting work done. The Metro stuff really breaks that perception to pieces. I love when I'm in desktop mode and I go to slide the mouse across the screen with the track pad and that pulls up the charm bar with time and date - and what I want is now under it and I need to click around to make it go away.
Or when I go to close a window that's been maximized on the desktop and barely overshoot the little x at the top right and now it's covered by the charms bar...
Search is supposed to replace the start menu - and I am all for that but the search is so poorly implemented. My laptop isn't capable of upgrading to 8.1 so maybe this gets fixed but on 8 it's really bad. If I start typing the word 'pad' - Wordpad does not show up in my search results. Crazy.
Having updates in two places - stupid. And it appears that some updates in the app store wont run until updates in windows update are done. I had two apps pending forever. Then I went over to windows update and found 1 important update that it said would be automatically installed - but it wasn't. I had to kick it off myself. As soon as it finished, the app updates that had been pending finally kicked in and completed. One was the Kindle app which would not open until it did update. It took me 15 minutes or so to figure out the magical order to get it all to work.
I've been using 8 for 2 or 3 weeks now on a brand new Samsung I bought for my wife. There are some nice things and there are a lot of very broken things and all of them scream to me that no one actually used this on a laptop. I can't imagine how they could have and not noticed how painful so much of the UI is. Want to uninstall an app from the home screen? Right click then move the mouse all the way down to the bottom left of the screen - just not too far to the bottom left.
Want to search the store? Open the charms bar. Now you will be tempted to start typing in the search bar. Don't - it defaults to searching what is already installed on your machine. You need to look at the list on the right and scroll down to store, select that and now you can search the store. It is not built into the store - it isn't obvious in any way that this is what you need to do. When in the store it just feels like search isn't possible.
I hear 8.1 fixes the install mess where installing software fills the home page with tons of shortcuts. Since I can't upgrade to it, since Samsung can't be bothered to make their stuff work with it, I don't know but I'd sure love it. Installing MS office left me with multiple columns of junk on my home screen. And I don't know what algorythm drives placing tiles on that screen - but it is insane and constantly fights me. I can rarely get tiles organized just like I would prefer - stuff slips around and leaves unpleasant gaps.
I'm hoping it will improve down the road. I like having multiple players in the OS market. I run Linux for the most part myself but for a number of situations and people in my life I need windows. I really have never been a fan of Apple's approach so I try to be patient with MS.
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And what are you going to do when Win7 is no longer supported?. Eventually you are going to be forced into Metro/Modern or switch to a different OS. Unless Microsoft releases the Source Code for Windows, so we can all fix the bugs (not likely) you are stuck with forced upgrades, limited choice and lock-ins.
It's generally been my experience that Microsoft can do whatever it wants to it's customers and they will continue to accept this type of treatment. I left that illogical insanity October of 2012 and I'm
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So you're suggesting it's just plain old Windows RT, only for x86, no NDK allowed (is there actually an NDK for Windows RT?). Of course, Microsoft's had a completely different CLASS (sic) of programs, without a name the public either recognizes or understands, that run fully abstracted from the hardware, like 85% of Android (most iOS apps are native coded iOS Cocoa Touch, though that no longer a requirement)... some called it .NET, some called it Common Language Runtime... but whatever. Didn't seem to help