North Korea Erases Executed Official From the Internet 276
itwbennett writes "The North Korean state propaganda machine has edited and deleted hundreds of news articles that mention Jang Song Thaek, the former top government and party official and uncle to leader Kim Jong Un, who was executed Thursday. Earlier this week, Jang was arrested in front of hundreds of senior members of the ruling Worker's Party of Korea and denounced for numerous alleged acts against the state and Kim Jong Un. From arrest to trial to death took only four days and the unprecedented fall from grace is widely being interpreted as an attempt by Kim Jong Un to keep officials loyal and scared."
Word unlocked. (Score:5, Insightful)
The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book. The adjective is appropriate in this situation: Go ahead and use it.
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I am more than certain that not a single soul posting on Slashdot feels the need for anyone, anywhere, especially not one of their own, to give permission to use blatantly inflammatory language to describe anything at all.
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Um, no. Hitler did not win any election.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_presidential_election,_1932
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Funny)
You know who else voted for Hitler?
Hitler!
Re: Word unlocked. (Score:5, Funny)
True, but give him a break. He's also the guy who killed Hitler
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On the other hand, he killed the guy who killed Hitler.
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False. Hitler did not win election, he lost in 1932. He was made Chancellor in 1933 by then President Hindenburg as a concession to the Nazi Party which did win some elections to the Reichstag. When Hindenburg died, Hitler was unchallenged and then took complete power.
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Just remember that Germany voted for Hitler. History can and does happen again, unless we care to learn from it.
And the US voted for Obama.
There is frequently a disconnect between the reason people vote for someone, and what that person actually does once elected.
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Informative)
Funny thing is, the language in this case isn't so much "inflammatory", as much as it is descriptive. See also The Memory Hole [wikipedia.org].
(I wonder if NoKo actually calls the folks tasked with this job the Korean equivalent of "Ministry of Truth" as well...)
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Pretty sure the idea for the memory hole came from the soviet purges. See also: Nikolai_Yezhov [wikipedia.org].
In other words, the communists didnt get the idea from Orwell, Orwell got the idea from the communists.
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It's the North Korean Happy Fun Time Hour! Be sure to clap for Dear Leader very enthusiastically! Be sure to stay tuned right to the end, when we show all the lucky children of our great country what it looks like when someone is executed by mortar fire. And remember, clap very enthusiastically... or else.
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the North Korean Happy Fun Time Hour! Be sure to clap for Dear Leader very enthusiastically!
You might be joking, but one of the accused's crimes was, in fact, to not clap enthusiastically enough. It's almost like they are trying to parody themselves.
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Funny)
Who got accused of what? You can't find any evidence of this supposed uncle on reputable web sites. Only tinfoil-hatted conspiracy theorists believe that Kim Jong-Un ever had an uncle!
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Informative)
In a book on the life of Shostakovich, there was an anecdote about Stalin giving a speech at a farm collective. After he finished, there was a thunderous applause that continued on and on for over half an hour. No one wanted to be known as the first one to stop clapping.
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Hell, there's YouTube videos showing this. They had to have a bell ring to let people know it was safe to stop clapping.
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Funny)
What they don't show is that the bell ringer was shot on the first ring because it was too early. The bell kept ringing because he was...a dead ringer
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Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Insightful)
What makes you think that most people who invoke 1984 have even read it?
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:4, Informative)
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He murdered his uncle for political reasons and doesn't want everyone to know about it, that kind of behaviour predates 1984 by several millennia.
I think photoshopping the guy out of pictures, deleting all references to him is what makes it 1984 worthy.
How do you even know he was murdered, given the above?! This is not simply "hiding a murder"...
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Insightful)
He murdered his uncle for political reasons and doesn't want everyone to know about it, that kind of behaviour predates 1984 by several millennia.
This is not insightful. He murdered his uncle and erased him from history, and very much wanted every North Korean politician, military and ambitious individual to know about it. It's a demonstration of utter ruthlessness designed to ensure obedience.
When you work for a man capable of doing that to his own uncle, you tread lightly. And that's what he wants. He knows that you and everybody else knows the charges were false - he wants you to know that. But never say it. And if you're in North Korea, you won't.
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Interesting)
He knows that you and everybody else knows the charges were false
I'm with you on everything in your post but this. Were they false?
I don't pretend to be up on North Korean politics, but I recall reading when Kim Jong Un came to power that some of his family members, Aunts and Uncles wielded a lot of power, and that Dear Leader himself had to tread pretty lightly to maintain the balance of power.
It could well be that his Uncle was making a play for power. Or it could be that Kim Jong Un has consolidated enough support for himself that he can openly move against his opponents. Just saying, ... not that I think Kim Jong Un is some 'force for good' in North Korea, but I'm pretty skeptical that his Uncle was innocent of anything.
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Interesting)
He knows that you and everybody else knows the charges were false
I'm with you on everything in your post but this. Were they false?
Oh, yes, I am pretty sure they were false. And that the uncle was guilty of a great many things, but not those he were charged with.
Kim Jong-Un's point wasn't to get him convicted for things he did - the point was to get him convicted, killed and erased on a whim. For that to be truly effective, Kim would need charges that were blatantly false, and some that weren't even against any laws. Which is exactly what he appears to have done.
It's a truly despicable Machiavellan ploy. The consolation is that few excessively ruthless leaders tend to rule for very long.
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:5, Interesting)
"The consolation is that few excessively ruthless leaders tend to rule for very long.", Ya, I think the calculation of the flunkies runs something like "this guy is a lunatic and I might be next, let's all make him next first."
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:4, Informative)
I guess it depends on your definitions of both "long" and "excessively", but the 20th century had a pretty good number. Stalin might be the best example, in power for around 30 years. And Francisco Franco was in power for nearly 40 years.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
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Generallissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
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[...] I recall reading when Kim Jong Un came to power that some of his family members, Aunts and Uncles wielded a lot of power, and that Dear Leader himself had to tread pretty lightly to maintain the balance of power.
It could well be that his Uncle was making a play for power. [..]
One possibility.
The other possibility:
Dear Leader had finally enough power not to listen to his uncle anymore. And his economically more experienced uncle might have told him that some of his new power moves are contra-productive. Like taking South Korean workers hostage and ruining future chances of needed cash flow.
- I imagine that disrespectful uncle might have said things like: "You know, some of the stuff you're doing is pretty dumb, even for North Korean standards." And Dear leader might have res
He wanted people to know about it (Score:2)
The government turned the electricity on so people could watch him being dragged out of the meeting on TV.
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Basically the typical act of a monarchist. However western press doesn't want to tag it as such because it is all too much of a reminder of who our current monarchical spawn really are and who they descended from.
As for North Korea, the number of recent execution is a sign of extreme paranoia, that either has a basis in reality and Kim Jong Un is likely to become the un-leader or Kim Jung Un is totally nuts and paranoid and to save themselves the ones left standing will turn him into the un-leader. Here'
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:4, Insightful)
He murdered his uncle for political reasons...
...but - tell the truth - around the holidays, haven't you ever felt like killing someone in your family?
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The Romans called it damnatio memoriae. [wikipedia.org]
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You'll never understand until you experience it (Score:4, Insightful)
The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book
Millions of Jews died in the hand of the Nazis. Those who went through holocaust hell but survived fully comprehend the meaning of "LIBERTY".
Many people tried to scale the Berlin wall but was shot to death. Those who were successful fully appreciate the importance of "LIBERTY".
Some brave souls from North Korea risk everything and went through a very dangerous journey crossing the very heavily guarded border into China. To them, "LIBERTY" is worth much more than all the gold in the world.
They do not need "1984" to tell them the horror. They have experience it first hand.
I had befriended several holocaust survivors when I was in the United States (back when many of them were still alive, in the 70's) and I found that, for them, the same thing happen : Mere words could never justify the horrors that they had gone through.
The scars that they had was much worse than the scars that I have. They had their family slaughtered right in front of them, and yet, when I asked them to describe how they feel, they just shook their head.
They couldn't.
It's not the "hurt" that stopped them from telling me what happened. It's that SPOKEN WORDS itself is not sufficient.
Now, when I see people like you justifying your "understanding" the horror with a fiction, I sadly shake my head.
"1984" is but an old fiction.
You guys might find it useful, but to us who had been through the horror, that book does not even come close to the actual experience.
To us, "LIBERTY" means much more than life itself.
To some of you, that word is, a word.
That is why I mourn for the loss of "LIBERTY" of the United States of America but too many born and bred Americans themselves don't even understand what they have lost.
I humbly ask for your forgiveness because English is not my mother tongue. There are times, like now, I am at a total loss of words to describe how I feel.
All I can say is this --- You will never understand the importance of "LIBERTY" until you have lost it.
Re:You'll never understand until you experience it (Score:5, Insightful)
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The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book. The adjective is appropriate in this situation: Go ahead and use it.
Good old sexiest man in the world was afraid. He doesn't like to be afraid. People go away when he's afraid. It makes him feel better. NK is now safer for Dennis's visit, with this dangerous hooligan removed as well.
Re:Word unlocked. (Score:4, Informative)
As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs -- to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct, nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place.
George Orwell, 1984
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Or, you could use Damnatio memoriae [wikipedia.org].
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Go read the article. That is exactly what they are doing; removing all references to him. Orwellian is the proper descriptor.
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Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek (Score:5, Funny)
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The moment guilt is obvious, what's the point of spending 15 years on death row and cost millions in tax dollars?
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Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek (Score:5, Insightful)
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Relax. This is a dictatorship. They can keep convicting of crimes and adding more death sentences until the Sun burns out.
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Even cheaper and faster, you don't have to wait for guilt to be obvious... or true.
Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek (Score:5, Informative)
The moment guilt is obvious, what's the point of spending 15 years on death row and cost millions in tax dollars?
I won't comment on North Korea, but in the USA there have been at least 311 cases [innocenceproject.org] where "guilt was obvious" but in fact the person had not committed the crime they were convicted of.
If you're willing to accept that your proposal would cause the state-sponsored killing of hundreds of innocent people, okay, but you should say so explicitly.
Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek (Score:4)
I guess my sarcasm didn't show. I should have put "obvious" between quotes. We are talking about a son and grandson of dictators.
I am actually against both the death penalty and life without parole, but I do recognize that in the rare exceptions of some truly over-the-top crimes where the defendant is very proud of his guilt, it should be both available and a whole lot quicker.
A lot of the innocence project's work was on crimes where I do believe the death penalty should be applicable. The US system is broken. There's a reason why so many states have banned the death penalty.
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Because there are numerous cases of people being wrongfully convicted and/or executed despite everything thinking their guilt was obvious?
giving new meaning to the phrase (Score:4, Funny)
"You have disappointed me. From hereon: You're dead to me."
"Thaek, I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Score:2)
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History repeating itself? (Score:5, Informative)
"is widely being interpreted as an attempt by Kim Jong Un to keep officials loyal and scared."
Sounds like Stalin all over again....
"The purge was motivated by the desire to remove dissenters from the Communist Party and to consolidate the authority of Joseph Stalin. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge [wikipedia.org]
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what steroids do to 'the little man' (Score:2)
More like a banana republic with nukes than the USSR, but we can presume Kim has taken some historical tips.
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And considering that Kim Il Sung was installed into power by Joseph Stalin, it is even less surprising.
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Like the USSR on steroids? More like the USSR on adulterated PCP.
The USSR sort of worked and had excellent physical science.
Enforced Ignorance (Score:2)
"Enforced Ignorance", what an interesting term. In the U.S., ignorance isn't actively enforced, but education is widely discouraged.
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"Schooling" is mandatory. "Education" on the other hand often seems to be actively discouraged.
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Stalin did exactly the same thing to Commisar Nikolai Yezhov after his fall from grace. They purged him from all official records and even went as far as photoshopping (much harder before digital photography) pictures of Stalin and Yezhov so that the latter disappeared.
obligatory statement to the NK noobs (Score:2)
"That's not how the Internet works."
Oh sure, the locals (not having ample Internet, and being fed the story by speakers across the countryside) might think his uncle that taught him his tricks was a traitor scumdog etcetera because that's the story Kim Jong-Un has concocted recently, but the rest of the world hasn't lost their copies of the newspaper, the stories that are on the websites, and other proofs of concept that Photoshop or a text editor aren't going to negate from the other 99% of the world's med
Stalin? (Score:2)
Jang Song Strisand? (Score:5, Funny)
I never heard of him before this article; now he's indelible.
From the Internet? (Score:2)
Or the North Korea Intranet? [wikipedia.org]
Was hopeful in Jong-Un... (Score:3)
Look, his uncle was probably as much a despicable character as any in the NK ruling party, likely performing or being complicit in any number of crimes against humanity, so no real loss to the human race here in all likelihood. What I find disturbing though is that Jong-Un has displayed callous disregard for human life in recent months in order to maintain complete control over the population.
I had high hopes for him when I learned that he'd been schooled in Switzerland, spoke English and had made positive comments in the past about the plight of the NK people. I figured he was young, idealistic, and maybe not all that different from myself -- had I been placed into a very difficult situation due to my family lineage. If placed in such a situation, I imagine that for a year or two I might have acted the part (whatever that means) in order to maintain control long enough to come up with a plan to bring some level of reforms to the country and ensure a longer-term transition to democracy.
Then again, you never really hear about a dictator who had a change of heart and became 'sane' after being able to operate with complete impunity for a while. I guess it's true when they say absolute power corrupts absolutely.
It seems that his age and boyish looks belie the fact that Jong-Il chose and groomed his successor very carefully.
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What I find disturbing though is that Jong-Un has displayed callous disregard for human life in recent months in order to maintain complete control over the population
No different than his father or grandfather in that respect. All of them shipped men, women and children off to gulags to suffer and die. His father feasted while children starved to death...
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Don't be naive. They can still blame Japan, South Korea, and the USA. It's not like North Korea's populace will know any better.
Sympathy? (Score:5, Insightful)
This guy was one of the top brass in NK. Lets keep in mind how many millions of tortures and death he's likely responsible for. The worlds better off without him, and we can only hope NK becomes unstable soon. Those poor people that live there, my God. How can we still have such a place on this earth.
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Those poor people that live there, my God. How can we still have such a place on this earth.
There are still people who believe that North Korea is closer to an ideal than Hong Kong or Belgium. Look at how excited they are about the rapid decline of Venezuela. Oh, right, the capitalists are all there sabotaging the People's Armies...
As long as people in large groups reject reason, [cafehayek.com] then other large groups of people will die for it.
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"Hope", "becomes unstable", and "nuclear weapons" are not concepts that belong in the same place at the same time.
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There isn't much to compare to the horror that's going on there now. I'd hate to see their arsenal get lose but the pain and suffering happening to those people now dwarfs even the worst case scenario with the nukes.
Only one reference to Memory Hole? (Score:2)
My goodness, only one reference to the Memory hole? That is where erased history went in the book 1984 and this situation fits it perfectly and there is only one bloody reference. I'm disappointed.
Oh and BTW, they aren't erasing him, only the mentions of him that were good. They broadcast live him being dragged out (by his elbows) of the politburo by soldiers.
How does that work? (Score:5, Informative)
"Remember what happened to Jang Song Thaek before you think about crossing me!"
"Who? I don't remember him at all."
"Exactly!"
Sounds a bit more like bad comedy than a real threat.
Re:How does that work? (Score:5, Insightful)
Whispers are more powerful than shouts.
New Meme (Score:2)
No fool (Score:5, Funny)
That Kim Jong Un is no fool. When executing relatives, always do it just *before* xmas, not *after*. That way you save on buying a present.
who? (Score:2)
"Eraser" (Score:2)
"You've just been erased..."
Re:Obummer's exit plan (Score:4, Insightful)
How soon before what's left of your pathetic, useless brain leaks out the one nostril you don't pick?
Re:Obummer's exit plan (Score:4, Insightful)
Senator Obama voted for warrantless NSA spying 4 months before he was elected President. Try paying attention some time.
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You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Amendments_Act_of_2008
Re:Obummer's exit plan (Score:4, Informative)
> And? Check the official vote rolls [senate.gov]. He didn't vote for it. His name isn't even in the list. Want to try again?
Please try to get the facts correct.
The FISA Amendments Act of 2008 (also called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008, H.R. 6304
The roll call is here:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00168 [senate.gov] (vote 168 not 236 which you linked to)
His name is on that list from 2008. You linked to the extension vote in 2012...of course his name isn't on it as a voting SENATOR.
Obama's the PRESIDENT at that time.
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To be clear
"To be clear" seems to be Obama's way of saying, "I am about to be unclear."
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Considering that the basic prerequisite for overthrowing the Republic is to gain the personal loyalty of the military (and preferably the veterans, especially in places like the US where they are armed), I'd say either "never" or "when he feels like committing suicide". The US military oath is to obey the constitution first. A president who declared himself supreme leader would suffer from a case of high velocity lead poisoning very quickly.
Re: Obummer's exit plan (Score:2)
The issue isn't the senior officers. It is the rank and file whose loyalty is required to overthrow the constitution.
Re:Obummer's exit plan (Score:5, Insightful)
You modern right-wingers collectively can't muster the balls of Timothy McVeigh (who failed to kickstart anything because the rest of you are gutless) so all you do is snivel on the internet, forward Faux News articles, and grumble like a bunch of blue-haired biddies in your little circle jerk of mutual affirmation.
You don't do shit, so quit bitching. You rant about the "Greatest Generation" but you aren't a bump on their collective posterior.
YOUR GOPs relentless incompetence and pathetic candidates are why Obama (who I also dislike) is in office in the first place! YOU got him elected twice.
The refusal of modern so-called "conservatism" to do anything other than preach like the White Trash Christian Taliban you are at heart while gargling the balls of rich people who wouldn't be caught dead with you is a disgrace.
Re:House of Cards (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, my heart goes out for Kim Jong Un, truly a victim of circumstance...
Re:House of Cards (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe if he killed himself, everyone would win.
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Yes, this execution evidences some element of fear. Though we don't need to feel sorry for Kim Jong Un, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes. Dictators rarely die of natural causes.
Re:House of Cards (Score:5, Interesting)
Dictators rarely die of natural causes
His father and grandfather died in the saddle of natural causes.
And actually, unfortunately, plenty of others do too, e.g. Franco, Salazar, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... And if you include the ones ousted but not killed (e.g. Duvalier, Amin, Pinochet) the list gets even longer.
(not killing dictators is actually important because if killing them is the only way to get rid of them they will hold on more tightly. The means of bribing them by letting them keep some ill-gotten gains is justified by the ends).
Hong Kong Phooey (Score:2)
Why doesn't someone karate chop his goofy ass out of the country?
That may have been what his uncle was trying to do.
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My understanding is that the chief difference here is how publicly Jang Song Thaek was purged. He was a member (by marriage) of the Kim family itself, and the Kims have always been somewhat cautious on state media services not to impugn any of the Kims, because it risks undermining the notion that they are the rightful rulers of North Korea. Under normal circumstances it seems more likely that he would disappear; and apparently he has been sent packing a couple of times before, only to return.
My reading of
catch-22 (Score:4, Funny)
You make a good point. This will be really embarassing for his memoirs: "I learned everything about leadership from my un--... uh, my dad." Of course he could spin this as having gifts from his deity since he can't admit his uncle existed and schooled him.
Also, whatever the North Korean version of Thanksgiving will be pretty awkward from henceforth.
"Auntie, you look good..."
"Eat shit, you little bastard."
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All internet that they have control over. Don't be obtuse.