Ford Rolls the Dice With Breakthrough F-150 Aluminum Pickup Truck 521
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "USA Today reports that Ford's next F-150 pickup truck will be made mostly of aluminum, instead of steel, in a bid to save weight. It will likely either be hailed as a breakthrough product to buyers who've made F-150 the bedrock of its business or one that draws comparisons to a 'rolling beer can.' The automaker has asked Alcoa, which makes aluminum blast shields for battlefield-bound vehicles, to lend some of its military-grade metal for the automaker's display, according to people familiar with Ford's plans. Ford's sales job will be considerable: The company is eager to demonstrate the toughness of aluminum, which is lighter than steel, to pickup buyers at next month's Detroit auto show. 'This is already the most significant debut at the auto show,' says Joe Langley. 'Everybody's going to be dissecting that thing for a long time, especially since Ford will be taking such a big gamble.' As a transformative product with a potentially troublesome introduction, the new F-150 has drawn comparisons with Boeing Co.'s 787 Dreamliner — an aircraft developed under the company's commercial airplane chief at the time, Alan Mulally, who in 2006 became Ford's chief executive officer. Because of the complicated switch to aluminum from steel in the F-150's body, IHS Automotive estimates Ford will need to take about six weeks of downtime at each of its two U.S. truck plants to retool and swap out robots and machinery. Ford is apparently trying to squeeze more than 700 pounds out of its next generation of pickup trucks. Using aluminum to cut weight would help meet rising fuel economy standards in the United States, which is requiring a fleetwide average of 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025."
20 year old news? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.aluminiumleader.com/en/around/transport/cars [aluminiumleader.com]
http://www.drivers.com/article/245/ [drivers.com]
http://www.audiworld.com/news/02/aluminum/content1.shtml [audiworld.com]
Make it nearly 70 (Score:5, Insightful)
You must be joking (Score:5, Informative)
Of course they do. On the other hand I haven't heard of the F150 on battlefields while Land Rovers have had a lot of military use. Of course they are "for work".
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In my area I have seen the Army National Guard on weekends using commercial light trucks; GM, Chrysler, and Ford. I can only assume for some light duties the regular military uses them as well. The poster probably confused the Land Rove with a Range Rover. They differ quite a bit, much like the difference between a civilian and military Hummer. One is a toy, the other a work vehicle.
Re:You must be joking (Score:5, Insightful)
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You might remind readers that their idea of a Land Rover doesn't include the quad cab and other truck versions:
http://www.landrover.com/content/australia/en/pdf/spec/defender_specification_2013.pdf [landrover.com]
Re:Make it nearly 70 (Score:4, Informative)
Uhm, the Landover is the British equivalent of the US pickup truck, you would certainly not be out of place hauling half a tonne of cinder blocks in one, or even almost a tonne of paving slabs as I did a couple months ago in my Defender...
Re:Make it nearly 70 (Score:5, Informative)
In the United States, Land Rover = Range Rover and these are "upscale" SUVs here. Rich people, celebrities, etc drive them.... They're a completely different animal than the Land Rovers that my uncles and cousins have in N Ireland with rubber floor mats, vinyl seats, bench seats in the back that run lengthwise, and so on !
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I had a relatively rich friend in the past. He has built a small country house all by himself. Most of the materials he transported on his Mercedes-Benz S600.
Now for the fun facts you probably would never hear anywhere else. The leather on the back sit wasn't even scratched. (And it took most of the beating because the trunk of sedan isn't designed for heavy weights.) The synthetic finish of the trunk proved to be highly resistant to any dirt, including chalk and cement: all was coming off after a single
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Those are not brought into the US and I am not sure they even build them in the UK anymore. Land Rover where very much the British version of the Jeep. And yes the Jeep came first and the two vehicles where often used for much the same thing after war.
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The Toyota Hilux is basically the Toyota Tacoma.
Before the "Tacoma" brand existed in the US, it was just the Toyota pick-up. Still a Hilux elsewhere though. And those late '80s, mid '90s Toyota trucks are indestructible.
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My point is that by "land owners" you must mean "landed gentry" or something. In America, we have lots and lots of people who own many acres of land but can't afford a $25,000 vehicle (let alone one that costs the same number in pounds). Besides, the cheapest model of Land Rover is $40,000+ and a Range Rover is well over $80,000. Do you guys use Audis and Mercedes for farming work too?
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The point was comparing it to an F150. The F150 sells for $25000 - $50000 depending on trim. It's a good comparison to Land Rover. People do use Mercedes for rural work, too, I'm sure. Remember, they may be luxury brands in the US, because they don't sell the cheap models here and cultivate an air of exotic foreign imports, but in Europe they're just cars. Police cars, taxis, whatever.
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Mercedes is still a luxury brand for cars in Europe -- they're more expensive -- but Mercedes also make vans, lorries and buses (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citaro [wikipedia.org] ).
They have a reputation for lasting forever, and the designs seem to take longer to go out of fashion. In the UK the number plate of a vehicle identifies it's age, and it's not uncommon to see someone who looks like they could afford a much newer car driving a well-polished old Mercedes.
Land Rover have an even better reputation for reliab
Re:Make it nearly 70 (Score:5, Interesting)
No, there are lots of normal tenant farmers who use a Landrover, and as such its pretty much the standard vehicle you see on a British farm other than the usual tractor et al. You can drop the attempt at making it into a rich persons vehicle, as it is far from it - its just a damn good investment, the same as a tractor or other farm tool.
A brand new Landrover Defender will set you back a fair whack, but as they are fairly indestructible you can usually pick up a 30 year old model which will do you nicely on the farm, be easy to repair and still run for the next decade or more with normal maintenance for less than $5000. As its the main vehicle of the British armed forces, there are always surplus vehicles being pensioned off and you can pick these up at auction for less than $5000.
You buy a brand new Defender if you want to pick the exact configuration you want, but most people make do with a second hand one which will run just as nicely.
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It should also be mentioned that traditionally Europeans buy stuff to keep a long time. That means while a Land Rover is expensive (it is less expensive in Europe), it can be seen as an investment, since it will be kept for as long as possible.
An example of different buying decisions is that taxis in Belgium and Germany are typically diesel Mercedes Benz, since they are more fuel efficient, compared to petrol and tend to last a fair amount of time.
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It's the sort of thing that pulls F150s out of a bog instead of the hairdresser's car you are thinking of.
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I pulled an F-150 out of a bog with my VW Rabbit. The damn things have the worst traction of any vehicle that I've ever driven (while the Rabbit had some of the best, exceeded only by our Sirocco). An F-150 can get stuck in four inches of snow if the back end isn't weighted down, I've seen it happen.
1948 (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know why people here see fit to "correct" stuff they don't know about.
Re:Make it nearly 70 (Score:5, Insightful)
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F150s can be for work, but the majority of people I see buying them never put anything heavier then ikea furniture in the back and would not even know where the hitch is.
You live in suburbia? To be fair, many farmers will prefer a 350, but a 150 is good to have too when it takes a couple hours' drive to get to the other side of the ranch.
Re:Make it nearly 70 (Score:4, Insightful)
A lighter truck just cannot do the same work as a heavier truck. Even if it were made out of theoretical indestructible materials. Modern trucks have had engines and bodies capable of hauling/pulling loads many times greater than they can effectively stop. Weight is about STOPPING a load and trailering it in a stable fashion. Even if it had an unlimited energy drivetrain and was built with theoretical indestructible materials, a light truck will get pushed down the road or thrown into a ditch by an unstable load if it doesn't have the weight on top of the tires. Lighter truck = less work done safely. Period.
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Clearly you've never hauled anything more impressive than a jet ski.
Any trailer of enough weight to matter is going to have its own breaking system and sure as hell not rely upon the truck for any significant breaking force.
Weight is only going to possibly matter when pulling under averse conditions (very heavy load, up a steep hill, on a wet or loose road).
Re:Make it nearly 70 (Score:4, Interesting)
When they first came out, that was true:
(And for my fine foreign friends, that's US ton, 2,000 lb, or 907 kg.)
However, that is no longer true, and the wide variety of sub models makes it even more complicated. Here's a payload capacity chart for the 2014 F-150 [ford.com].
The lowest is an SVT Raptor with only 980 lb payload capacity, while the highest is a staggering 3,120 lb for a regular cab, 4x2 with the heavy duty payload package and a v8 engine! That's a 1.5 ton capacity!
F-250's and F-350's have similar ranges.
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Agree in part, and disagree in part. A popular "strong man" competition is to pull a train car, of course the rolling friction of steel wheels on steel rails is low, hence railroad's efficiency advantage in the first place. Quite frankly a Fiat 500 could pull the space shuttle or a 727, particularly if it was only one time, on flat ground. Heck PEOPLE [planepull.com] can pull a plane. So these sort of events really don't speak to the durability of a truck.
At the same time, these vehicles often go 250,000 miles without
Re:Make it nearly 70 (Score:4, Informative)
Eh... it's not a limit or anything. It's a general rating category. I'm honestly not sure how they arrive at those categories. The higher the rating, however, the beefier the suspension, mostly.
My old 3/4 ton Ford doesn't really break a sweat hauling 2 tons. (And those would be your 2,000 pound tons.)
Re:Make it nearly 70 (Score:4, Interesting)
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Consider that Land Rover used to be owned by Ford... Ford used Jaguar and Land Rover as a testbed for new technology, for instance the Jaguar XJ got an aluminum bodyshell in 2003, while owned by Ford.
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Not in 1948.
Re:and the 2013 Range Rover (Score:4, Insightful)
The first Land Rovers where built out of left overs from the war. England had a lot of aluminum for aircraft construction but where building few aircraft.
Steel has some real benefits for car bodies like the fact that is is more springy than aluminum, it will flex a little and bounce back it is also easier to weld and tends to be harder. It is also stronger for a given thickness.
Aluminum is much more corrosion resistant and stronger per mass.
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Re:20 year old news? (Score:5, Insightful)
You are kind of missing the point.
All of the examples you pointed out are for higher end performance cars. These cars are usually handled in a genital manner. I remember a story where Prince Charles got angry at Di after she sat on the hood of his car at a polo game and left a bum imprint. That is not going to cut it for a “work” truck which is constantly being banged into, sat on, having things tied on, etc.
Personally, I am trying to figure out how these things are going to get repaired. If I understand it correctly, repairing steel parts is very different than aluminum. (FYI, I know quite a few farms who take a DYI attitude towards auto repair. I don’t think they will be happy.)
Re:20 year old news? (Score:5, Funny)
These cars are usually handled in a genital manner. I remember a story where Prince Charles got angry at Di after she sat on the hood of his car at a polo game and left a bum imprint.
I respect your anatomical specificity and historical knowledge, but just to be clear Diana's bum is not technically part of her genitals.
Re:20 year old news? (Score:4)
We can just chalk it up to bad aim by the Prince.
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"I respect your anatomical specificity and historical knowledge, but just to be clear Diana's bum is not technically part of her genitals."
At least not prior to the crash...
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These cars are usually handled in a genital manner.
Well, yeah, but they're only SYMBOLIC genitals.
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Aluminum is a bitch of a metal. It stretches when bent and can't be reformed. You just replace the panel until they are NLA. Then you live with the dent.
Aluminum also hardens with age. AC cobras now are delicate like egg shells. Contacts that would have dented it 20 years ago, now break the metal.
This isn't a bad idea for mall utility vehicles, not so much for a work vehicle.
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There are many different aluminum alloys and heat treatments. Pure aluminum is soft and pretty weak; it will not spring back when bent. Alloys can be much stronger, stiff, and even brittle.
Buying a first year aluminum F150 will be a big mistake. You'll see a lot of galvanic action where dissimilar fasteners are used, and wear points will be a big problem. Expect to see panels torn at mounting points.
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http://www.bigmacktrucks.com/index.php?/topic/830-what-models-were-built-hayward/ [bigmacktrucks.com]
Double that 20 years. I drove an aluminum truck way back in 1984, which was already old and nearly worn out when I got it. I never investigated why the aluminum trucks were dropped - it probably had something to do with the company downsizing, and pulling back to Pennsylvania. During such an operation, I suppose a corporation is going to drop those parts of it's business that are perceived as "risky".
Google has plenty of ima
Re:20 year old news? (Score:5, Insightful)
The weight savings were not small.
Gross weight for a class 8 tractor trailer combination on US highways is 80,000 pounds. Guys who had all steel tractors and trailers were sometimes unable to load 43,000 pounds. Most were able to load 45,000 pounds. Just about no one was able to load 47,000 pounds, and still be legal. With my aluminum Mack and aluminum Cobra trailer, I routinely loaded 51,000 pounds, and scaled it legally.
Since I got paid a percentage of what the load grossed, you can see that I was effectively being paid for ten loads, with the same time and effort that other drivers were being paid for nine.
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Since I got paid a percentage of what the load grossed, you can see that I was effectively being paid for ten loads, with the same time and effort that other drivers were being paid for nine.
What was the payback period based on the steel vs aluminum cost?
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I can't say, because at that time I was only a driver. I had recently left the Navy, and my interests didn't include the boss's worries, expenses, and troubles. I do know that the tractor was old and nearly worn out, and that it had been passed down to the most junior driver in the fleet - me. The trailer was much newer, maybe only four or five years old.
I have furthered my education since then, but I never went back to learn the purchase cost of my ex-boss's trucks, or the lifetime cost efficiency of th
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Re:20 year old news? (Score:5, Funny)
Kinda sounds like "Everybody gets a trophy" day.
Anybody remember Hyundais in the 1980s? Aluminum.
Re:20 year old news? (Score:5, Insightful)
The F-150 is the best selling vehicle (car, truck, or suv) in North America,and has been for almost 20 years. [forbes.com] This isn't some niche manufacturer that is going to sell 50,000 units and be happy with it. Ford is expecting to sell millions of these before then can do another redesign, so if it isn't successful it's a serious problem, and therefore it's a huge risk.
Furthermore, losing 700 lbs on every one of the millions of these that are going to be sold over the next few years will do more to reduce dependency on foreign oil and co2 emissions than all of the zero emission vehicles put together. So as cool as the technology behind electric and hybrid cars is, if you want to burn less gas, you have to root for advances in truck technology such as this.
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Get your facts and reasonable arguments the fuck out of here. Almost like you though this place was used for discussion rather than epeen measurement, one upmanship, "same as in my day"isms, cynicisms, and conspiracy theory airing. Asshole!
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Yep. This is one of the coolest things to come out of American car manufacturing in decades and will have a far greater environmental impact than every hybrid vehicle produced thus far. Hybrids will always be a sham feel-good item due to their reliance on expensive exotic materials for the batteries.
AFAIK this is the first time a major manufacturer has gone all aluminum for a popular mass market product. Cutting weight is something so basic yet so crucial to future auto manufacturers it's a wonder no ot
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This comment always made me laugh. The only reason why Ford trucks were the best selling trucks in the world is because GMC split their models into two - Chev and GM (stupid as it may be).
Check the graph at http://wap.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
You will see the that GM actually out sold Ford in 2012 by 62,000 units in the light truck market (F-150 is a light truck) and are outselling in 2013 by 50,000 units.
Re:20 year old news? (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder when I can get an aluminum Mustang so I can polish it like a P-51.
Sweet.
Have something [trucktrend.com] a little more interesting.
Re:20 year old news? (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the big time. The F-series is America's best-selling vehicle [wikipedia.org] for the last 28 consecutive years.
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My only question: can they price it like a Ford and not a Land Rover or an Acura NSX?
If I can buy an aluminum pickup truck with a decent V8 engine for $20K, I'm in, at $50K - never.
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We bought our last one in 1999, paid $17K for a Ram 1500 with 5.9L V8 (wanted the 5.1, but in 1999, taking the 5.9L to get the color and other options we wanted seemed like a good trade...)
Every time I look at new vehicle prices, the maintain and restore option seems like the best for my wallet, and the environment. Sure you can get better mileage now, but how many decades before that offsets the cost of the new vehicle?
Audi have been doing this for years (Score:2)
and I don't think they made this much of a fuss about it.
Weight-saving (Score:3)
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I have two Ford trucks and several motorcycles. The trucks come out when I need to haul stuff/take someone (like my daughter) somewhere. The bikes are for commuting. My current commute is about a 50 mile round trip. With my motorcycles, that's about a gallon of fuel a day versus 4 in my larger vehicles. Plus I'm an automatic HOV here, and the I495 Express Lanes are free for motorcycles.
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How big is your daughter that you need a pickup truck for? I have seen a Honda Fit transport 2 average size adults and 2 very large adults, close to 1,200 lbs of people.
Kidding aside.
Most people really don't need pickup trucks, they just want them as a status symbol, they justify it to themselves that they need it, while you can get by quite well with a small call and just rent the pickup truck when you need to some extra work that day.
People who need pickup trucks are mostly Farmers and Building Contractor
Re:Weight-saving (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been bouncing the idea of a pickup truck for about 10 years. My wife wants an F150 and swears it will be our next car. Until that happens, I have a 4x8 trailer with a 1500lb capacity (I've used it for more on short trips) which I got about 10 years ago new for about $500. It costs nothing for insurance and only $8 a year in personal property taxes. I have a hitch on 2 of my cars. I use it for dirt, mulch, my ATV's, taking stuff to the garbage dump and picking up and transporting large objects materials and large stuff I buy from stores. I'd say overall it averages two uses a month minimum. I don't care about it's condition meaning I don't worry about tossing stuff in it, scratching it, using a shovel on it etc. I could not imagine myself spending $45k on a shiny new truck and taking it to the stock yard and getting a 1/2 yard of gravel dumped in it from a front loader. My trailer? Who cares.
The one I have is similar to this:
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/carry-on-trailerreg%3B-5-ft-w-x-8-ft-l-specialty-single-axle-trailer-1500-lb-payload-capacity [tractorsupply.com]
I put some plywood on the deck and and on the sides.
If you have room to store one, they make great haulers.
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That was my first thought. If you have a small car you can't tow anything. If you buy a bigger car so you can support towing, you end up paying the efficiency penalty for every trip.
I hardly ever have heavy loads to move. When I do, I rent a truck. Truck rental is dirt cheap when you consider what you're getting. U-hauls start at what, $30/day these days? If I had to move loads twice a month like the GP, I might still just rent; but if I already had tow-capable vehicles I'd do what he did.
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Lots of sports cars are fully or partially aluminium.
Name a pickup truck that is.
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Audi Q7, Audi Q5, Landrover Defender
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_(four-wheel-drive_system) [wikipedia.org]
Audi's system delivers drive shaft energy to all 4 wheels... they aren't simply free spinning wheels.
That said, Subaru has been doing All Wheel Drive for 10 years longer than Audi. They started offering it in consumer models in 1972, while Audi didn't even introduce it to their rally cars until 1980, consumer models were a few years after that. You can still buy 2-wheel drive Audis, but all Subaru models come with AWD now, and have for almost 20
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Audi's really known for their pickup trucks, too?
Whodathunkit, apparently Audi are playing around with the idea of building a pickup:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/08/audi-q7-pickup-truck-is-real-new-spy-photos.html [autoguide.com]
I think he meant cars in general, Audi has been making extensive use of aluminium in their cars [audiworld.com] for years, as have Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Jaguar, ... Rover built an aluminium Landrover in 1948, and the American Motors Corporation did the same with their little M422 jeep back in the 50s. This is hardly news except perhaps because s
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I wish I could get a VW pickup in the US. I had a Rabbit pickup for a couple of years, it was one of the best vehicles I've ever owned.
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No idea what your first line is about, I assume it's something to do with a TV program?
Yeah, the Rabbit pickup was a VW Rabbit with a pickup body and a reinforced rear suspension. IIRC the carrying capacity was pretty much identical to the Toyota Hi-Lux pickup of the same time period. It drove like a Rabbit, which means it was comfortable, responsive, and that you couldn't get it stuck no matter how hard you tried. Truck had 185,000 miles on it when I bought it, I beat the hell out of it for two years an
It's probably necessary (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll note that my truck has a synthetic 'plastic' bed, it works great, and is probably as tough as a rhinoliner coated steel bed. I'm sure it saves weight/cost.
The failure mechanics of aluminum is different than steel, but it is possible for it to be stronger for the weight. As a bonus, you shouldn't have nearly the rust problems. As usual, I'd be leery of buying the first year's model.
I'm still holding out for my strong hybrid truck though.
Re:It's probably necessary (Score:5, Funny)
I'm pretty sure Ford's ability to make anything rust will transcend the laws of physics and we'll see aluminum transmute directly to iron oxide.
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The article has things blown way out of proportion. The major customers for F-150s are not individual consumers. The major customers of the F-150 are companies that have fleets of trucks. Think companies like Home Depot or U-Haul that rent out light duty pickup trucks or companies like Union Pacific or BNSF that mount railwheels on their trucks so that they have a way to get vehicles, people, and material out to remote areas.
The big advantage in aluminum is the reduced weight and consequent fuel savings. It
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I'd like to see about a hybrid truck as well, perhaps a hybrid TDI because of the inherent fuel economy advantages of a modern diesel.
Exactly: diesel. Fuck hybdrids. A good diesel has relatively low emissions, will produce better MPG than a Prius (e.g. http://www.carpages.co.uk/guide/skoda/skoda-octavia-estate-s-1.6-tdi-cr.asp [carpages.co.uk]), and doesn't have cart around a heavy battery. Furthermore, the environmental costs of making that battery outweigh the fuel savings (http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101018/OEM01/310189979). The Prius is just a status symbol for "green" conspicuous consumers.
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My brother is a aerospace structural engineer on the Dreamliner vertical stabilizer.
He despises composites.
Maybe it's his upbringing, or maybe it's the fact that problems with composites are one of the reasons he hasn't seen his family much over the past few years.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/409929/boeings-composite-problem/ [technologyreview.com]
It's probably not risky... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Or Chevy will finally take their slogan literally and built a pickup out of rocks.
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Re:It's probably not risky... (Score:5, Funny)
Most people care more about the status symbol of the new shiney, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it used in a series of Dodge/Chevy ads. "Silverado, tough as steel" or some such.
Ford: Made battle armor tough.
I don't think it'll be a hard sell at all to the macho guys. Buy a truck made out of battle armor that reinforced humvees!?! Are you kidding me?
Calling it a "rolling beer can" is just frosting on the cake.
Old news (Score:3)
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The trucks Home Depot rents out are Ford F-150s. The major advantage to the aluminum F-150 is going to be fuel savings which I believe Home Depot holds their renters liable for fuel costs. I'm predicting that Home Depot will not order the F-150 light duty truck for that model year and instead go with either GM or Chrysler because I'm quite certain that the $1,500 cost increase will make the other two brands more cost-effective.
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Aluminum will cost Ford $1500 more, that should raise the actual cost to consumers by at least $3000 if not more.
Aluminum shortage? (Score:2)
Wasn't there talk of an aluminum shortage earlier this year?
Or was it just speculation that Goldman Sachs tried to create a shortage to increase prices?
Re:Aluminum shortage? (Score:5, Informative)
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That's not a scam, that's hard work by the bankers making money for their investors using perfectly legal trading methods.
They do the same thing with gasoline and other commodities. Personally, I think somebody should do a RIAA style calculation of what these manipulations cost the global economy and pass a law to extract it from the banks as tax. This type of manipulation is the dark side of "providing liquidity".
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"Other commodities", like foodstuffs. Speculators have driven millions to the edge of starvation by raising food prices out of reach of the world's poor. A couple of years ago the price of rice tripled, even though the world's farmers had record harvests. The price rise was directly attributable to speculators, and reportedly some boast about that on their resumes.
Driveline (Score:2, Informative)
This will work fine. The issues will arise in the driveline. Specifically the rear axle. Clearly gears, diff and drive shaft will still be steel aloy. But if they try for an aluminum pumpkin and axle tubes it's going to fail. The frame isn't a big deal because they can beef that up as much as they want and the load is fairly predictable (strait down) But lots of people have tried aluminum rear axles and they just don't work in the kind of conditions a work truck operates under.
And I Will Stop Buying... (Score:3, Interesting)
I can tell that both the designers and people who think this is a great idea don't actually use a pickup for a living. I use a pickup on a ranch, and I use it HARD so that is where I am coming from. The new pickups in the last 10 years just don't last anymore because they are making them lighter and more economical to drive, and they just can't take the abuse that workers put them through on a daily bases.
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Same thing with the model changes to the Jeep Wrangler line after the YJ.
All frou-frou and techie-wechie, but no guts.
Comfort, style, and economy are not the primary design goals in a working vehicle.
Unless you're a marketing creep.
It might be time for you to upgrade (Score:5, Insightful)
I can tell that both the designers and people who think this is a great idea don't actually use a pickup for a living. I use a pickup on a ranch, and I use it HARD so that is where I am coming from. The new pickups in the last 10 years just don't last anymore because they are making them lighter and more economical to drive, and they just can't take the abuse that workers put them through on a daily bases.
Independent studies place the F150 basically equal (depending on which metric) in durability with the Silverado 1500 and Ram 1500. If you are wearing out your trucks it might be time you look in to the 250 (or higher) series. The 150 series trucks from each of the manufacturers are designed to match their usual working demands - most people who buy them live in the city and drive them mostly on the road. The most common cargo (in this country especially) in the bed of a pickup is air.
The 150 trucks are designed mostly for the urban handyman who occasionally pulls around and launches his own fishing boat on the weekend. They're good trucks but don't try to overstate their purpose.
Re:And I Will Stop Buying... (Score:5, Insightful)
But this is all contingent on how the aluminum is employed. If they have good, experienced engineers then this can only end well (I'd love to have a truck that didn't rust).
So what exactly is the mileage after this? (Score:3)
So what exactly is the mileage after this?
Is this really "rolling the dice"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Big companies like Ford don't just do things like this on a whim, they can't afford to. The American car companies still have the black eye of their quality problems from the 80s and 90s; they are one misstep away from corporate ruin. While the F150 is still the top selling vehicle on the planet, they can't afford to take it for granted or to leave its fate to chance.
Re: (Score:3)
There's always the Dunning-Kruger idiots who think their inexperienced-but-smart selves know more about engineering than people who've been doing it for thirty years. And then they fill up Internet fora with their foolishness.
INT != WIS.
Most popular vehicle? Wow... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's just staggering, that this is the most popular vehicle in the USA. It's about the same size/weight as a European 8-seater minibus [mercedes-benz.co.uk]! And this isn't at all the biggest Ford sell, is it? I've seen things on the motorway there that are almost bus sized.
Re:Most popular vehicle? Wow... (Score:5, Informative)
My thought as well. It's totally baffling that this beast is the world's top selling car. I'm a European currently visiting the US, and my wife and I are constantly pointing at what to us looks like a monster truck. I actually took a photo of me standing next to a random US pickup truck to demonstrate the ridiculousness of a car whose roof I can barely touch.
The pickup idea is also completely foreign to me as a European city-dweller. Maybe it's because I have a family I can't see why they don't just put in a row of folding seats. I've never needed to carry anything that my Freelander couldn't handle.
I love the names though. They really know how to name the giant vehicles. Ram, Silverado, Expedition, Armada...
Re: (Score:3)
The F-150 is the most popular pickup truck. An entrenched market for pickup trucks exists to supply home handymen, construction workers, farmers, repair people, landscapers, and pretty much anyone that needs to carry open loads of approaching 1 ton. (Half-ton pickups are usually capable of carrying more than 1/2 ton in a pinch.) Also, if you are towing, pickup trucks can pull large trailers (like fifth wheel trailers.) So anyone interested in sub-transport sized towing, often purchases a pickup truck.
Minor problem with aluminum (Score:3, Insightful)
I really hope that Ford over designs that truck since unlike steel, aluminum has no fatigue limit. And for those of you who don't know what a fatigue limit is, with some metals, they bend under stress and when the stress is removed, return to their original shape. And if the amount of bending is under their fatigue limit, then that bending process can happen an infinite number of times and no harm is done. However, if the stress is over the fatigue limit, then eventually, the metal will crack and fail. Steel has a fatigue limit, aluminum does not.
So both materials have their advantages and disadvantages.
Steel. It corrodes fairly easily, but has a good fatigue limit. So if you keep it from rusting, it will pretty much last forever.
Aluminum, doesn't corrode, but doesn't have a fatigue limit. So eventually, it's going to fail. No matter what you do, it will eventually fail. But the length of time until it fails can be extended by minimizing flex by using more material than what is strictly needed to handle the load. Or if you don't use excess material, inspect it frequently for fatigue cracks, and if any are found, repair them. On aircraft, they do have a strict inspection schedule and frankly, a lot of the inspection process involves crack finding via dye penetrant and X-ray. Somehow, I don't think such an inspection process would be done with a Ford F150. And I worry that Ford just might not bother to overbuild that truck since doing so will make it more expensive and heavier. I instead suspect that they would design it to last maybe 5 years or so under "typical use" until the frame starts to crack. A "reasonable" service life and guaranteed obsolescence.
Re:Minor problem with aluminum (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit [wikipedia.org]
Useful graph. The wording "no limit" can be a bit confusing to people who haven't done a materials course. In this case, having a limit is good.
Corrosion (Score:3)
Aluminum land rover bodies are a mainstay in the Cameron Highlands of Malaysia because they don't corrode like steel bodies. Of course they are used with toyota/denso drive lines. Nobody uses land rover engines.
Do I have to do all the thinking? (Score:3)
Wouldn't it be easier to remove one passenger seat?
Re: (Score:2)
...they probably still have all of the Jaguar IP for welding, riveting, and clinching aluminum.
I would assume that that IP was sold with Jaguar to Tata some 5 years ago now (source [autoblog.com]). Sure, they probably can license that IP pretty easily (as I recall, the deal had Ford still doing a bunch of R&D for Jaguar and Land Rover), but saying that they have all of the IP would be misleading.
Re: (Score:3)
Seeing as how rust per se is the oxidation of iron, it's a pretty safe bet that all aluminum is pretty rust-resistant.
Pedantic, yeah. But I'm an engineer.
Re: (Score:3)
Aluminum *does* corrode. In most situations the oxides form a stable protective layer, but in situations where aluminum is in contact with dissimilar metal you can get galvanic action and the less noble [wikipedia.org] metal will corrode. There's also a phenomenon called stress corrosion cracking [wikipedia.org] where a metal in a corrosive environment can fail catastrophically after being repeatedly exposed to stress.
So a piece of structural aluminum near a fastener in a salty environment isn't safe from corrosion failure. Naturally I'
Re: (Score:3)
There are a number of issues with the calculations here.
First, you estimate that it takes about 1 gallon of gasoline equivalent per pound of aluminum (1800 gallons for 2000 pounds). This then seems to say that the energy cost for aluminum should hover around $3.00/pound (the price of the gasoline), or maybe half that since electricity is cheaper. Maybe $1.50/pound for the energy. It currently sells for $0.75/pound on the spot market, so the energy input is somehow wrong.
Also, if a truck gets 20 miles/gal