Every Weapon, Armored Truck, and Plane the Pentagon Gave To Local Police 191
v3rgEz writes You may have heard that the image-conscious Los Angeles Unified School District chose to return the grenade launchers it received from the Defense Department's surplus equipment program. You probably have not heard about some of the more obscure beneficiaries of the Pentagon giveaway, but now you can after MuckRock got the Department of Defense to release the full database, letting anyone browse what gear their local department has received.
Why only to police? (Score:5, Interesting)
Per the Second Amendment, we all have the right to keep and bear arms. So, why are they only giving these to police? I'd like at least a token weapon (like a single pistol or rifle) for my share of taxes, that went to research, develop, and produce them...
Re: (Score:3)
So, why are they only giving these to police?
It's probably worth pointing out that these are not "given" to police. They are "loaned".
Therefore police depts that accept this gear are required to pay for maintenance (which on some of the vehicles can be more than the value of the vehicle) and are forbidden from selling them if they become surplus to requirements.
Re: (Score:2)
It's probably worth pointing out that these are not "given" to police. They are "loaned".
Therefore police depts that accept this gear are required to pay for maintenance [...] and are forbidden from selling them [...]
And they are required by 1033 to use the equipment [wikipedia.org] and (according to that wikipedia entry) are allowed to sell some of it.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Per the Second Amendment, we all have the right to keep and bear arms. So, why are they only giving these to police? I'd like at least a token weapon (like a single pistol or rifle) for my share of taxes, that went to research, develop, and produce them...
Well, actually, you can.
Civilian Marksmanship Program. After fulfilling a set of requirements, you can purchase certain surplus military firearms. Most notably, semi-auto M1 Garands in a variety of conditions for very good prices. Modern military rifles today are select fire or full auto, so there's no way they could transfer to civilians.
Unfortunately, Secretary of Defense Robert Macnamara, under President Johnson, had all the M14s melted down after the switch to M16s. Oh how I wish he hadn't done that
welcome to the post-9/11 world (Score:2, Flamebait)
Because 9/11.
No, really. This was just another piece of police state bullshit rammed through by Republicans after 9/11, along with warrantless surveillance by the NSA, the Patriot Act, and civil forfeiture laws http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/videos/john-oliver-amplifies-the-absurdity-of-civil-forfeitures-20141006 [rollingstone.com], which allow police to seize your property with only an accusation.
Remember this next time the Republicans get on their soapbox pretending to be Libertarians.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The Republicans (many of them) are Statists, not Libertarians.
Now, the Romans and Greeks of the ancient world understood that in the immediate aftermath of a big event, poor law was made. They left us cautionary examples and quotes. Then again, nobody in politics today reads the classics and neither does the public generally.
And thus, we generate new cautionary tales.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Those who ignore history are bound to... LOOK, A TERRORIST!!!!
Re: (Score:2)
I seem to remember a vastly bipartisan support for these laws after 9/11... I don't think, you can plausibly single RethugliKKKans out.
Worse, Democrats had 4 years of majority in both Chambers of Congress — two of those years with a fellow Democrat in the White House. If they have not abolished these laws during the times, they are just as a guilty.
Back to my original point of the Second Amendment right
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Khmm, I noticed, you've been following me around. Would you like to subscribe to my newsletter [youtube.com]?
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't actually say anything about the Democrats, but I would agree that they are NOT our last bastion of personal freedoms.
I also would not say Clinton or Obama are especially liberal. To a first approximation, the modern Democratic party is almost exactly like the modern Republican party.
I appreciate that I may have ruffled your feathers, but you have not come close to proving I've said any lies.
The way to prove or di
Re: (Score:2)
The untruths consisted of:
Re: (Score:2)
No, I said they rammed it through, which is different. The act was introduced by a Republican, and all House Repubs except 3 voted for it. For comparison, 62 Democrats opposed it.
Part of how Republicans rammed it through is by accusing Democrats of being weak on national security. I think you have an idea what I meant.
Re: (Score:2)
And how do you explain away the 98:1 votes for the law in Senate? Or the fact, that the law — originally meant to automatically expire — was just extended by everybody's favorite Democrat [huffingtonpost.com]? He said:
You were r
Arming the enemy (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but why would they want to arm their enemy.
Captcha: treaty
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
>> defense of the Nation.
Our militaty has no experience in defense (which would be done on US soil.) The olny know offense. (which is done over seas)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The second best defense is making other people defend themselves first. It has always been that way.
The first best defense is making so that no one wants to attack you to begin with. Counter-intuitively, simply declaring yourself neutral and not picking sides doesn't do that. You still have what other people want, and if you don't keep the others on the back foot, they will be coming to take it from you.
The Swiss have defended themselves by first, being in a place no one really wants, and second, by armi
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I think the Swiss stayed neutral by keeping everyone's money for them and allowing them to make secretive transactions for arms, oil, and to hide fortunes amassed by individuals in times of war
Sure, but now the Swiss are wide open to the USA, like pretty much all of the former havens. Only state-sponsored corruption remains.
Re: (Score:2)
swiss neutrality worked because they accepted everyones money, facilitated talks and even arms deals between opposing sides, and because no one cared enough to actually take a small minor nation with no strategic value.
Re: (Score:2)
Most of the people who want to attack the US only want to because the US messed with them first. Stop getting involved and people will not care enough to attack you.
Re: (Score:2)
jawohl
who wants to attack the US right now? islamists... lucky for us they're too busy killing each other, you know because they're basically brothers and sisters... and you know must therefore hate the fuck out of each other.
take US involvement out of WW2, we'd probably all be speaking german or russian or japanese.
and there'd be peace in the middle east... because why bother fighting over glass?
Re:Why only to police? (Score:5, Interesting)
A bragging Athenian once told a Spartan:
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, that sounds a lot like someone belonging to a fascist totalitarian society would say to the resident of a free world.
Doubly ironic that most Spartan soundbites come to us because they were recorded by their opponents, rather than from them directly. Then again, totalitarian societies never last long.
Re: (Score:2)
... civil war.
Re: (Score:2)
If that's, how you choose to read the Second Amendment, then the First must only — in your reading — protect speech of those, who petition the government. And only if the petition is for redress of grievances.
And yet, numerous court-decisions (including those immortalized in the "People vs. Larry Flynt") ruled, that the First Amendment protects even pornography...
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed. People also seem to gloss over the fact that the statement "the right of the people" is an absolute, independent clause. It stands on its own, regardless of any prefatory or explanatory clauses that might depend on it. All other independent clauses relating to grants of power to the government have been read and ruled that way. They are not subsumed or limited by any prefatory statement regarding the reason for their inclusion. If the 2nd Amendment is to be so limited, then so should every power in
Re: (Score:2)
according the verbage at the time, well-regulated might also mean, well-equipped. The States, and communities, at the time, would produce a list of equipment that each member of the militia was required to bring with them, if they were called up. That list would include a firearm and a small amount of ammunition appropriate for that weapon.
$1000 Flashlights? (Score:4, Interesting)
And why did they give our local PD 145 flashlights worth $130K? What does a thousand-dollar flashlight even /look/ like?
Re: (Score:3)
And why did they give our local PD 145 flashlights worth $130K? What does a thousand-dollar flashlight even /look/ like?
I was going to post exactly the same thing, so you must be from Santa Clara County as well.
$896 for a flashlight... But what about the 6 camouflage sets for $26k? Do they fly?
Re:$1000 Flashlights? (Score:5, Interesting)
Camouflage netting seems to be a biggy. The Anchorage, Alaska DEA got a $26,000 radar evading camo net system for some bizarre reason. Perhaps they're fighting an onslaught of radar equipped meth labs hidden in Polar Bear dens above the Arctic Circle. Who knows.
Night vision systems are also popular. That makes sense, but boy am I jealous.
Re:$1000 Flashlights? (Score:4, Funny)
They must look pretty darn good - otherwise, the folks who would pay $1000 for a flashlight must not be too bright...
Re: (Score:3)
I've seen many tactical and weapon light systems in the big sporting good stores going for anywhere between $200-$500. I'm sure the military could find a way to pay twice that on dang flashlight somehow.
They may also be using non-standard UV or IR flashlights too, those seem to cost a lot for some reason as well.
Re: (Score:2)
24kt Solo Cups? (Score:2)
What I'm curious about is how in the hell two disposable cups cost $127.30
Or how 220 gauze bandages comes to $424.60
Or 17 rolls of "pressure sensitive adhesive tape" (read: likely duct tape or equivalent) is $281.69
And a single plastic bag listed at $194.75
Does the US military electroplate their gear with precious metals before selling it, or what? I'm not even a US citizen, but those prices - sans a reasonable explanation - seem obscene.
PS: Taken from the MO Department of Public Safety.
Re: (Score:2)
And why did they give our local PD 145 flashlights worth $130K? What does a thousand-dollar flashlight even /look/ like?
They're probably flashlights designed to be mounted onto weapons that put out incredible recoil. A lot of cheap flashlights will break somehow on the first shot because the forces involved are just massive so building a flashlight that can withstand these forces and be reliable takes some quality materials and engineering.
Though to be honest I still can't imagine even the finest built flashlight being worth $1000 but it's not out of character for our government to like to overpay for everything.
Re: (Score:2)
At least flashlights are something police departments can use. My county police department got a mine resistant truck. Are there mines buried all over my county that I don't know about?!!! *carefully watches where I step*
Re: (Score:2)
Costco also had a 2-pack 1500 lumen set for $69 until they sold out in two days.
http://www.costco.com/Duracell... [costco.com]
~~
Re: (Score:2)
Anything sold to the police should be sold... (Score:5, Insightful)
... to the people.
This limits what you'll sell to the police because a lot of this hardware you don't want in "civilian" hands... the police ARE civilians. They are not military.
Anything the police are able to buy, should be something the average citizen can buy.
Pistols?
Rifles?
Shotguns?
Body armor?
Tear gas?
Gas masks?
Flash bangs?
Tasers?
All of that can be sold to civilians already. No issue there.
Tanks?
Machine guns?
THAT crosses a line.
If I can't buy a tank then I don't want to see the police using them either. Both the police and the general public must operate under the same rules.
If police are getting out gunned by people that have automatic weapons, then we can look at that situation and see how that happened. From what I've seen, that mostly happens with the cartels if it happens at all. And in those cases, you're dealing with a failure of the border patrol etc. Regardless, you can bring in the FBI if you really want to bring some firepower down on their heads.
Re:Anything sold to the police should be sold... (Score:4, Informative)
Tanks [milweb.net] for sale. Some even nearly affordable.
Machine guns made before 1986 can easily be bought. Those made after require a class 3 FFL, which isn't impossible to get, but you have to follow the rules and it takes a while.
As far as I know there is only 1 case of a legal machiene gun being used in a crime, and it was owned by a police officer.
Re: (Score:2)
Apply the same rules to the police that you apply to regular civilians and I am fine with it.
If I can own and USE a tank... driving it down the street... then by all means... let the police do the same. That includes any weapons applied to the tank. If you mount machine guns on it or a 180 mil bore main gun... then I want to be able to have one as well... including the ability to buy ammo for it if they can do the same.
As to machine guns, I am aware of the situation. My stance remains the same there. If the
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You're forgetting the bit where they could only buy legacy weapons. Antiques. Possibly in good repair but with a very finite number. Every time one breaks there will be one less.
As to letting civilians buy automatic weapons generally... I don't really mind it but you'd need to create a situation to allow that to happen. This isn't that situation.
Re: (Score:2)
There aren't enough of these guns for law enforcement to make significant use of them. They're too expensive and too rare.
What I further suspect will happen is that the government would chaff under these rules. If forbidden from crafting a loophole just for them, they would create a loophole for everyone. And then you'd get what you want.
But you can't do it directly or you'll fail. Learn something from the opposition. Sometimes you have to attack an issue from 90 degrees.
If they're willing to accept the sam
Re: (Score:2)
Bookmarked in the event of zombie apocalypse!
Re: (Score:2)
As far as tanks yes you can own them b
Re: (Score:2)
I know a guy who owns an armoured car. it is unarmed, but he takes it out at times and drives around.
So you can own an armoured vehicle.
One of the issues of tanks and other modern armoured vehicles is that they are *integrated systems* and the manufacturer may be able to sell you a tank, but not if it contains defense department secret technologies like range finders, sighting systems, computer driven stabilization systems, EW and comms gear, etc.
So, although perhaps you could buy such a vehicle as a raw ve
Re: (Score:2)
It's a short (and lethal) time where patrol officers with pistols, limited armour, and unarmoured patrol cars are engaged by high velocity portable weapons systems.
So any hunting rifle then. Seriously, standard police body armor or a car door doesn't do much of anything against common deer round even like low end .30-30 let alone something like a .303, .308, .30-06, 7.62x54r, 8mm Mauser, 7.5x55mm Swiss which are all fairly common round going back over the last 70 or so years. Now add in that a semi-automatic, self loading, rifle like the M1 Garand were basically handed out like candy [wikipedia.org] after WWII so the police would have been outgunned even then more so without modern
Re: (Score:2)
The LA Bank thing was a bad deal,
but my little town of 5500 people has never had something like that happen in it. Ever. A police officer in my community, has never been killed in the line of duty, in our town. We had one killed in 1947 when he provided mutual aid to a neighboring town.
But our local police chief is currently trying to convince our Mayor that he really needs to upgrade to Armored Vehicles and riot gear. "Look what happened in Ferguson MO, that could happen here."
We have a training cul
Re: (Score:2)
So long as the police have to follow the exact same rules, I'm fine with it.
They are not military. Police ARE civilians.
Re: (Score:2)
If I can't buy a tank then I don't want to see the police using them either. Both the police and the general public must operate under the same rules.
You can buy a tank. However, in this day and age, the US military will no longer sell it to you, not even after disabling the weapon system, and not even if it's old, outdated, and no longer classified secret. You'd have to buy it from another country, then ship it to its destination since it won't be legal to drive it on many public roads, even with capped treads.
OTOH, you can't buy a machine gun, and cops have long been permitted to have automatic weapons. So yeah, I'm with you there. Short automatic weap
Re: (Score:2)
They cause almost zero problems for anyone.
Except in the hands of cops, who often have poor weapons discipline.
Re: (Score:2)
Not a single tank was sold to the police. I also did not see a single machine gun offered to police. Automatic weapons yes but not a single machine gun that I saw.
Also no the police and population do not have to work under the same rules! Show me that in law. Show that to me in a nation on earth.
And sometimes you do not have time get the FBI to a location..
It is called Military surplus. Many of the items are offered for less than value of the metal in them. So your local police get a mine resistant truck th
Re: (Score:2)
Equality under the law.
Or
A police state.
Choose.
I am not asking that civilians be given tanks and automatic weapons. I am demanding that the police be denied them.
They don't need them. If you run into a situation where you need automatic weapons then call in the national guard because your country just got invaded.
Tear gas, sniper rifles, and old fashioned police tactics work just fine to drop anything short of an invasion. You do not need military hardware.
Re: (Score:2)
Did I contradict any of those points or were you just wasting bandwidth?
Re: (Score:2)
They are civilians. You are in error. They are not military.
They can quit their jobs at any time.
They can participate in the political process with full personal freedom of speech.
To attain special privileges they would have to give something else up.
They have not. They operate under no restrictions that the average person doesn't have upon them already. As such they have given up nothing to pay for additional rights. Therefore they have no additional rights. Therefore they are civilians.
If police want to s
Re:Anything sold to the police should be sold... (Score:5, Informative)
The police are under civil law, therefore they are "civilians" by the definition of the word.
Re: (Score:2)
The police are under civil law, therefore they are "civilians" by the definition of the word.
No, they stop being civilians when they arm up as soldiers.
soldier
sld/
noun
noun: soldier; plural noun: soldiers
1.
a person who serves in an army.
and recursively:
army
mi/
noun
noun: army; plural noun: armies
1.
an organized military
Re: (Score:2)
The police are under civil law, therefore they are "civilians" by the definition of the word.
No, they stop being civilians when they arm up as soldiers.
We have two systems of law in this country: civil and military. Unless they're bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice - which applies only to those in the uniformed services of the US. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U... [wikipedia.org] for more details.
Short version: they're "civilians" whether they like it or not.
Re: (Score:2)
I, for one, LOVE the fact that my local FOREST PRESERVE bought a bunch of M60's.
WTF is a Forest Preserve unit doing with M60's?
Re: (Score:2)
See this for an example: M548/M1015 Full Tracked Vehicle [roscommone...center.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Not under the same permits or conditions and not the same tanks and machine guns.
The tanks civilians can buy tend to be forbidden from driving down the road except under special circumstances. They are for collectors. They sit in a room somewhere with a plague in front of them.
if the police want to moth ball all their tanks and put little museum plagues in front of them then I'm fine with them.
As to machine guns, the machine guns Americans are allowed to buy are grand fathered weapons in increasingly short
$900 Flashlight? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd like to know what kind of Flashlights Santa Clara, CA received at $900 each. ($130K for 145 of them).
They received a utility truck worth $47K - if they put just 53 of their flashlights in the back of the truck, they'd be worth more than the truck itself.
What makes these flashlights worth $900?
Re:$900 Flashlight? (Score:5, Insightful)
The 850$ kickback.
Re:$900 Flashlight? (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.amazon.com/Surefire... [amazon.com]
Not quite there but close, some of the weapon mount flashlights are pretty expensive. I'm sure some of it is government procurement kickbacks, some of it is probably the 24 hour on call assistance military contracts demand, but the lights themselves have to be built insanely tough as well. I once bought a cheap knock off flashlight/laser combo just to try out on my shotgun. It shook itself apart before I fired the fifth round.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
What makes these flashlights worth $900?
Ruggedness. You can literally beat someone to death with these flashlights and they still work afterwards.
I'm pretty sure I could do the same thing with a $40 maglite. People just aren't that rugged.
Re: (Score:2)
What makes these flashlights worth $900?
Ruggedness. You can literally beat someone to death with these flashlights and they still work afterwards.
I'm pretty sure I could do the same thing with a $40 maglite. People just aren't that rugged.
I can't believe someone spent a mod point downmodding this post as 'redundant' -- how can it be redundant when it's the only post on this article talking about a maglite being able to beat someone to death!? Offtopic I could see, maybe overrated, perhaps even flamebait. But redundant!?
Re: (Score:2)
The bulb filaments will be busted after that. Also maglite use a thin tube and poor threads. Maglite are shit.
No they won't, because they've gone LED like everyone else. Most manufacturers use a thin tube for large flashlights, too. The problem with maglites is the switch, which will always fail.
Phew (Score:2)
I'm happy to say that none of my local police departments received anything too crazy (grenade launchers, APC's, etc). Mostly it was pretty reasonable stuff like rifles, pistols, gear, trucks, etc. I am a tad concerned with the number of weapons some of them received, most of the departments seemed to want an assault rifle for every single officer and enough pistols for every employee in their department. I realize that police need to keep up with some of the stuff used by the exceedingly rare nutcase bu
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah same here. The only bad thing I saw were the MRAPs [slashdot.org] which have already been in the local news. I can't imagine that there are enough situations where such a vehicle would be needed to justify the high maintenance costs. They are mostly used for show, as projections of power.
Other than that, it's a bunch of useful items. The larger police departments got explosive ordinance disposal robots, scopes, utility trucks, helicopter. The forest service got a bunch of night vision supplies. The department of corr
Re: (Score:2)
There are some WTFs still when you look beyond just the police agencies. For example, the Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife has acquired 130 5.56 rifles. Why?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
APCs are useless for cops 100% of the time. By the time you get the APC out of storage etc the shooter has chewed through whoever was in range and expended as much ammo as he had or wanted. The fact that the APC can survive a shot from a Barrett isn't really helpful to the 1-10 officers and God knows how many civilians that arrived before the APC.
The APCs are way past diminishing returns if they cost as much as is reported. $1M plus mammoth upkeep costs for a PD that services 1000 people is an incredible
Re: (Score:2)
"APCs are very useful when...."
The situation you describe is a one in a billion chance, there have maybe been a handful of them in the last few decades nation wide. Most recent incidents involve a nutcase running around killing as many unarmed people as possible, they aren't camping out waiting 45 minutes or more for the police to roll up in armored vehicles. By the time they get the APC loaded up, started and driven to the scene probably 97% of incidents are already concluded (shooters dead, surrendered
Re:Phew (Score:4, Insightful)
Still, who orders a grenade launcher for a school?
I believe grenade launchers can be used to fire canisters of tear gas.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
First graders? Unless I'm running into a namespace collision, UCF is University of Central Florida.
Re: (Score:2)
Still, who orders a grenade launcher for a school?
someone who hates kids?
Re: (Score:2)
Or university students. I believe UCF=University of Central Florida.
Re: (Score:2)
Dealing with uppity university students, I'd presume.
Meh (Score:2)
The First Cop Tank (Score:3)
Score for Florence! (Score:3)
Who can beat their 120+ line items of largess in a town with less than 5000 people? The Florence Facebook photos page is to die for. It took me 5 minutes to recover. Looks like a total LE staff around 12. (including the dog). I want pictures of Florence Cops on Mules!
Re: (Score:2)
Who can beat their 120+ line items of largess in a town with less than 5000 people? The Florence Facebook photos page is to die for. It took me 5 minutes to recover. Looks like a total LE staff around 12. (including the dog). I want pictures of Florence Cops on Mules!
While they may have been live mules the MULE was a also a mechanical device. Could have been a museum piece or maybe an M-Gator?
We pay for it twice (Score:2)
John Oliver! (Score:2)
John Oliver did a funny yet sad piece on Fergusson, MO and police militarization. My favorite part is the two stoners in Saginaw, MI filming the sheriff's armored truck; particularly when one has a moment of clarity and wonders how bad their city really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Look at the claimed value of some of this stuff: (Score:2)
LAMP,INCANDESCENT 15 $5,096.70
LIFE PRESERVER,YOKE 12 $11,908.32
It seems like someone is scamming someone here. Or, is Uncle Sam actually paying over $300 each for light bulbs (maybe complete lamps)? $1,000 for a life preserver?
This concern is aside from the county's acquisition of a tank, APC's, mine resistant vehicle, dozens of assault rifles, etc.
7.62mm rifle? (Score:2)
I'm curious why my local Agriculture Department needs a bunch of M-16s.
I know that the "5.56mm rifle" is an M-16, and the ".45 cal pistol" would be a 1911, but what is the "7.62mm rifle"? I'm hoping it's an old M-14 rifle. I'm hoping these are not M-60s!
Re: (Score:2)
The sniper rifle is still 30 caliber. The question you should be asking is why your agriculture department needs sniper weapons.
Los anageles california (Score:2)
1600 Snow Parkas
was this just a 'HAHA beat you to it Alaska"
Some interesting bits from Washington (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Have a look at WA Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Re: (Score:3)
Probably they wanted a larger vehicle able to hold a fair number of offices with some cross country ability. Getting something from the military is significantly cheaper than buying something built for that purpose. It may not be perfect but it is good value.
Re: (Score:2)
Police brutality isn't the norm.
[citation needed] I have never been anything other than unfailingly polite and in fact compliant when I have encountered law enforcement, and yet they have literally always reactive in some sort of excessive manner. My very first police encounter was being arrested for vandalism of something I did not harm in any way whatsoever, being handcuffed too tightly, and put in the front of a modern shitpile FWD cruiser with my face up against the dashboard while my hand turned purple. Wasn't even 18 yet.
As far as I
Re: (Score:3)
Because the police are the ones out and about in the small hours of the morning. If you are outside for sustained periods it doesn't need to be below freezing to be unpleasent enough to reduce your effectiveness.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's nothing Los Angeles Sherifs have them beat with 1600 parkas.
Re: (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P... [wikipedia.org]