The Key To Interviewing At Google 185
Nerval's Lobster writes Wired has an excerpt from a new book of Google-centric workplace advice, written by Laszlo Bock, the search-engine giant's head of "People Operations" (re: Human Resources). In an interesting twist, Bock kicks off the excerpt by describing the brainteaser questions that Google is famous for tossing at job candidates as "useless," before suggesting that some hiring managers at the company might still use them. ("Sorry about that," he offered.) Rather than ask candidates to calculate the number of golf balls that can fit inside a 747 (or why manhole covers are round), Google now runs its candidates through a battery of work-sample tests and structured interviews, which its own research and data-crunching suggest is best at finding the most successful candidates. Google also relies on a tool (known as qDroid), which automates some of the process—the interviewer can simply input which job the candidate is interviewing for, and receive a guide with optimized interview questions. It was only a matter of time before people got sick of questions like, "Why are manhole covers round?"
First, manhole covers are not always round (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, the ones here are far often square than round, so the answer to that question really is "because otherwise they would not fit the round manhole". Second, It took them pretty long to figure out their interview-questions are bogus. I interviewed there in 2008 on the request of a friend that wanted me for his team. Total failure as I knew far too much about the things they were asking me and the ones asking were not domain experts and hence did not understand the answers. In retrospect, that is fine. I now know several people that left Google, because they did not find the company to their tastes at all anymore.
Re:First, manhole covers are not always round (Score:4)
You're probably better off. Working for the big Silicon vendors is over rated. You can make a six figure income working for a small firm, as well, without the hype and hyperbole.
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Indeed. I know that from experience now. A small company also has the decisive advantage that you can have real influence on where it is going and how you do your work and when you have some grievance you can talk directly to the one responsible. I quite like that set-up.
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And for being such a "smart" company, their software can be pretty fucking stupid.
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For the same reason that assholes are round and not square.
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The vast majority are round and have a lip on them. This makes the manhole cover circumference larger than the actual hole and prevents the cover from falling down the hole. A square manhole cover can fall down the hole in the right orientation. In other words, round manhole covers were designed to reduce accidents.
Sewer and drainage grates tend to be square or rectangular. Then again these holes are much shallower and usually do not have ladders.
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In other words, round manhole covers were designed to reduce accidents.
They are also easier to manufacture.
Their symmetry makes them less like to warp.
They are easier to move, since they can be rolled by one worker, rather than carried by two.
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But the battery of questions I got where nearly as useless to real work, even though they where actual programming questions. When I interviewed with Google I had around 7 years of work experience designing and implementing software for industrial automation with some focus on compiler constitution. Almost all questions where CS 101 questions, like "How do you implement quicksort?". Although basic knowledge of fundamental algorithms is required for the the work, actual problems are almost always of architec
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Ah, yes, another one of those. Using Quicksort is a sign of strong incompetence, unless you can tolerate quadratic run-time. Competent people use mergesort or bottom-up heapsort, depending on the concrete situation. (Come to think of it, I may have had that question too and told them so...)
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Almost all questions where CS 101 questions, like "How do you implement quicksort?"
How did they react to, "By calling the library that implements it" ?
To be fair to Google, they're one of the few companies that might need to implement a new algorithm because existing ones aren't sufficiently optimal. But then it wouldn't be quicksort..
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Re:First, manhole covers are not always round (Score:5, Funny)
So the question can be used to weed out pedants. I guess it is useful after all.
Or to find the engineers that can spot the missing parts of vague software specifications -- just because a user asks for something in the specs doesn't mean that he knows that the case he wrote up doesn't handle all of the options the software will encounter in the real world.
He may ask for software to generate quotes for manhole cover manufacturing, and only ask for a radius because clearly that's all you need to describe a round manhole cover, yet the smart engineer will ask how to handle the other shapes. Few companies want an engineer that blindly adheres to specs even when they don't make sense in the real world... that's more like a job for consultants so they can get paid to do the work and the paid again to do it the right way.
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When you are doing software specs, you _need_ to be a pendant. Otherwise the spec will not be any good.
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So you need to regard your interviewer as a fuzzy-brained incompetent? _That_ is your advice?
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So you need to regard your interviewer as a fuzzy-brained incompetent?
Well that all depends. If the interviewer asks "are manhole covers round", then, well, it's hard to help how I feel.
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Based on your answer to the manhole question, you go on one of 3 belts -- pedants go on the engineer belt, people who give straight answers go on the general cannon fodder belt, and those who can't answer it go on a belt that leads to the parking lot.
The cannon fodder belt leads to the work-for-free sign up sheets. If you don't sign, you exit onto the belt that leads to the parking lot.
The engineer belt leads to further questions and more belts.
Could be a f
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And another possibility to answer that question, which is perfectly valid and in sync with reality. Another one would also be "because somebody decided they wanted a round one in that place and hence selected one from the manufacturer's catalog".
Of course, the question is an utter fail for the selection of people supposed to produce software, because there anybody that doe not as these questions and makes sure what the situation is would screw up the specification by not having it match the problem. Maybe t
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In that case, the answer is also pretty simple: There are two most obvious shapes to manhole covers, tables, cutlery, buttons, etc.: Square and round.
My point is not that I am being pedantic, my point is that the answer "because a round cover cannot fall into the hole" is an answer somebody with a lot of intelligence, but little insight into reality would give. Maybe I am paranoid here, but I have as strong suspicion that Google did/does want people with high intelligence and said lack if insight. These wou
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I see the Google PR shills are moderating actively. No surprise.
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In the software development field we call being "pedantic" in that fashion "not making assumptions", and we "insist on being pedantic" because we know that is really a disorganized and semi-clued persons way of saying: "OMFG! He expects may to say what I mean and know what I am saying! I can't do THAT!!!," while you try to project your incompetence on us. (Next you'll be writing an ARM design
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Eggs are not oval, they are "egg-shaped". It is a compromise between a sphere (pressure resistance) and a drop. Also, the inside of an egg is not symmetrical, it has an air-bubble in the tip, that is why you poke a hole in it before boiling.
Just shows that these questions are simplistic and in ignorance of important facts.
Re:First, manhole covers are not always round (Score:4, Informative)
Fresh eggs have very small air cells, and ones straight from the chicken coop will have virtually none.
I have some backyard chickens, and I can confirm this. If you boil eggs fresh from the coop, they will crack almost every time, because there is no air pocket to absorb the expansion. Before boiling fresh eggs, it is best to store them at room temperature for at least a week, or longer if you have high humidity. This will allow the air pocket to form, and also loosen the membrane beneath the shell, so they will peel more easily.
If I am ever asked, during an interview, "What is the best way to boil an egg?", I will be ready.
Re:First, manhole covers are not always round (Score:5, Funny)
let me ask just one more question-
does that apply to front-yard chickens, as well?
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The front yard sort are annoying, as those chickens get on the road occasionally....
So you are also prepared to answer why they cross the road?
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This is also the answer to "how to microwave an egg."
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Right on the surface, in actual reality a complete fail. The danger of falling tools is far more real than the one of falling covers.
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Says the guy who got hit in the head with a 1/2 pound wrench, rather than a 110 pound cast iron square manhole cover...
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It is incredible how people can fail to see reality, even when they themselves are stating the most important facts. Fascinating. Ever have though of how hard it is to move that "110 pound" cover (and your weight estimate is far off, they are a lot heavier)? For that wrench, a clumsy move is enough.
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which begs the question, "Why are you trying to cover the hole while someone is still down there?"
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which begs the question, "Why are you trying to cover the hole while someone is still down there?"
LOL
Made my day!
Usually, it's because someone has travelled a long distance underground, and you are either opening it to let them out, or opening it to provide equipment for their next leg (like an air blower), or you are sending down an expert or tools to do something with whatever cable or whatever they dragged with them from the point the went in.
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And you continue fail at the real world: The cover is very heavy and hard to move, tools are far easier to move. Being a smar-ass, as you are trying to be, completely fails when you do not understand the facts of the situation.
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The danger of falling tools and spontaneous combustion is greater than the danger of just falling tools, so we should be seriously concerned about spontaneous combustion!
And *that's* why they make manhole covers out of iron, rather than, say, methyl zinc.
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Oh, it's easy to design and build a fairly safe and secure manhole cover.
Making it as cheap and idiot proof as a simple round one however..
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Re:First, manhole covers are not always round (Score:4)
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While I did not get feedback, that may well have happened in some of my interviews as well. Google engineering seems to generally not be very good.
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Fucking hell, how young are you?
Google was a technology company with software severely in advance of anybody else operating globally long before they ever had media services.
They continue to design and build their own hardware, and design, build, publish and share software that still breaks new ground, that other people rely on, that other companies buy and that underpins the traffic that generates their ad revenue.
To pretend they don't produce a technology product demonstrates a naivety and ignorance that
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I am an pretty bad driver, which is why I do not own a car. No, I did not cause any accidents, I just have a pretty accurate view of my skills and lack thereof. Some people cannot stand that because they are complete failures in that regard.
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If you ever had actually handled a manhole-cover, you would know that they are far too heavy and hard to move to fall in by accident.
Wheee.... (Score:2)
But of course, every single employee who was hired at Google when the standard interviewing technique was to ask pointless brain-teasers is still one of the "world's best and brightest," no doubt? Smartest, brightest, most talented workforce in America? Changing the world, one day at a time?
Thought so.
Drink the kool aide (Score:5, Insightful)
The key to interviewing at Google is to drink the kool aide before you arrive. Download and use the core software they make available. If you're not enthusiastic enough about their tool chain to do that, mere competence won't carry you over the finish line.
Most companies couldn't get away with that but Google is Google. At least for now.
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Enthusiastic, yes. So enthusiastic you invest a couple hundred hours learning their specific tech before you interview, not so much.
Re:Drink the kool aide (Score:5, Informative)
The key to interviewing at Google is to drink the kool aide before you arrive. Download and use the core software they make available. If you're not enthusiastic enough about their tool chain to do that, mere competence won't carry you over the finish line.
(I interview software engineers at Google)
This really isn't true. I mean, certainly some level of interest and enthusiasm is important, but the interview process doesn't really focus on that. SWE questions are pretty much all technical, about algorithms, data structures and coding. Not to test your knowledge of those topics (Google isn't really concerned with what you know, but with how smart you are) but to see how well you can solve problems on your feet. There is a significant component of the interviewer's report that covers "Googliness" which probably partially covers enthusiasm, but is much more about whether your personality is a good fit for the culture -- are you a nice person, friendly, interested in technology and solving problems, etc.
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Which brings me to my other complaint: Google looks at how people think "on their feet" to the exclusion of how they think and perform over time.
I don't know about you, but unless the problem is crazy-simple or something I've seen a dozen times before, I simply don't think in 45-minute timescales. Give me a week and I'll have three solid solutions. Give me a month and I'll have a dozen more, at least one of which is ingenious.
Give me your 45 minute segment of an all-day interview and as often as not I'll ha
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There's no doubt that the process is imperfect. In fact, the bar is quite deliberately set so that there are a large number of false negatives (bad no-hire decisions), to keep the number of false positives extremely low.
As for your particular complaint... I think that people who don't think well on their feet actually won't perform well at Google. Rather than one person plugging away for a month to come up with that ingenious solution you mention, the approach at Google is to get a half-dozen people toget
Feynman interview joke & manhole covers (Score:3, Funny)
Probably this was brought to the mind of many people reading the article, so I might as well post it.
http://www.sellsbrothers.com/posts/details/12395
I know! (Score:5, Insightful)
I couldn't resist answering this:
Why are manhole covers round?
Because if they were square, they could be turned sideways, rotated 45 degrees, and dropped through the hole. As it turns out, this holds true for any shape with an even number of sides, until the length of each side drops below a threshold that's related to the lip of the hole.
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I nearly learned that the hard way. As an idiot teenager I picked up a rectangular storm drain grate that was heavier than estimated. It went right into the hole and just about took me with it. It's funny I hear Google doesn't like to hire people who "just want to work for Google", but unless you really had some desire to specifically seek out Google, their interviews would seem really obnoxious. I only lasted a few interviews before it became clear I didn't want it bad enough, but I will say they didn't go
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Manholes r round cuz poop r not square.
Hire meh nao plz kthxbye.
So do I... (Score:2)
Firstly, not all manhole covers are round. I've seen triangular ones in Nashua [google.com] and Japan [greenspun.com], and there are a lot of rectangular ones [google.com] in Italy.
Secondly, the reason manhole covers are round generally is that during the industrial age the four major machining operations were casting, cutting, turning, and drilling, and since the covers had to be reasonably accurate while being mass produced they were made by turning (ie - on a lathe).
Thirdly, this is a variation of a "Fermi problem", after Enrico Fermi who famous
Re: I know! (Score:2)
Actually the answer they are looking for is "hmm, I don't know. Let's google it".
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OK, that's pretty interesting, I mean the thing about even numbers of sides. Any idea where I can see the proof? My searching didn't yield anything.
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Basic geometry dictates that any regular polygon can be inscribed in a circle.
The radius of the circle will be the distance from the center of the polygon to any point. And the diameter double that.
Its pretty self evident (and easily proven) that a regular polygon with an even number of sides will have pairs of parallel sizes opposite each other.
Its pretty self evident (and easily proven) that these pairs of opposite sites form parallel chords.
Bisect the polygon through the centers of a pair of chords.
The l
wut (Score:2)
The thing is, some of these questions don't seem all that hard.
How many golf balls fit in a school bus? Well, I could give a ball park figure by estimating:
The volume of the bus/the size of a golf ball.
So even if my numbers aren't right, I'm sure the general application is what they'd be going for in an interview, so...
school bus: 20ft x 7ft x 9ft x12 for cubic inches= 15120 cubic inches.
If a golf ball is 1.5 inches in diameter (have no idea if this is true) then 10080 golf balls fit in a school bus.
Now, i
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You need to add a few more 12's to your formula since we're calculating cubic space. So it's (20*12)*(7*12)*(9*12)=2177280 cubic inches.
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If a golf ball is 1.5 inches in diameter (have no idea if this is true) then 10080 golf balls fit in a school bus.
Golf balls can be stored more optimally than assuming a cubical space for each one (for example 1.5" ^ 2). For example, if you place four golf balls as a square, and you place a fifth one on the top in the center, it can sink a bit between the four lower balls.
The only way to win at Google? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is not to play.. .
When they start to reduce the process of interviewing down to a standardized series of questions and tests, they remove the human from the process too. Who wants to work for a company that isn't about HUMAN interaction first, that isn't willing to treat their employees less like interchangeable cogs and more like unique individuals.
This is the end of innovation and uniqueness for Google, or at least a sign that it's falling out of favor. This is the MBA mindset of trying to remove the variables in the process, standardize on some ill fitting solution in an attempt to be efficient. This means that they won't get innovation because failure is becoming something to avoid, taking risks leads to mistakes that cost money and time. When this becomes the prevailing attitude at a company, that company then becomes risk adverse and innovation slows down.
The problem here is Google is nothing but a search engine and software development house if it doesn't continue to innovate. It will die like Yahoo, AOL and all the others if it doesn't stop this.
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When they start to reduce the process of interviewing down to a standardized series of questions and tests, they remove the human from the process too.
When Google was still human sized, they could trust and rely on HR people they knew personally. Now that Google grew exponentially it's much harder to trust the many HR consultants that may hire some unfit candidates. So maybe in that case, tests and quizzes are the best option?
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Actually, I suspect there's some good in there somewhere. I have no idea, I've never interviewed there, and never worked there, but being slashdot, that won't stop me voicing an opinion ;-)
Whenever I've done any interviewing, I've always struggled to 'measure' the candidates in any verifiable way. I guess I just work on the feeling I get about them. However, if I had a nice intranet tool that could give me a few relevant questions to ask them, then maybe I could actually get a (technical) measure of their w
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When this becomes the prevailing attitude at a company, that company then becomes risk adverse and innovation slows down.
Maybe that's a good thing for Google. They have ongoing projects to defeat human mortality, create sapient AI, and strap cameras to everybody's heads. They could probably stand to tone it down a little.
Re:The only way to win at Google? (Score:4, Informative)
When they start to reduce the process of interviewing down to a standardized series of questions and tests, they remove the human from the process too.
(I do interviews at Google)
Google doesn't use standardized questions or tests. The app mentioned just provides some decent questions. At least for software engineer interviews, though, the interviewer would be foolish to use a question read from an app on the spot. The Google SWE interview questions are complex technical problems, designed to give the interviewer a chance to watch the candidate solve problems on the spot, and write code. To do that effectively, the interviewer has to know the question well, and to have explored most of the potential answer space, and to have some idea about how different kinds of candidates will respond to it.
Googlers call the process of exploring the answer space "calibrating" the question, and it's a pretty important and serious process. Generally it starts with grabbing a few other Google SWEs and doing mock interviews to see how they handle the question, and ultimately interviewers like to use the same set of questions with many candidates because seeing how several candidates handle it really nails the calibration down. I have a couple of questions that I have so well-calibrated that I can make 90% of a hire/no-hire decision in the first five minutes. Basically, good candidates blow through the first stages in a couple of minutes, while poor candidates struggle for a half hour. I don't make the hire/no-hire decision in the first five minutes, though, because there are exceptions. Some people just take a while to settle down / warm up, which is cool.
I suppose you could use an uncalibrated question from an app during an interview and then calibrate it after the fact. I've done that (without the app), asking a question that I haven't already calibrated, then after the interview getting some of my teammates to solve the same problem. It's not nearly as good as going into the interview with well-calibrated questions, though, because you don't understand the solution space well enough to effectively direct the candidate.
Actually, I just looked up qDroid and it's specifically for non-technical interviews. I had it run up some questions for a sample position, and they actually look pretty good. All open-ended, exploratory stuff, with lots of suggested followups.
This is the MBA mindset of trying to remove the variables in the process
FWIW, I'm sure Google employs some MBAs, but I've never met any of them. Google is an engineer-driven company, top to bottom. All eng managers are required to be competent engineers themselves, and for most engineers their entire management chain, up to and including the CEO, is all technical. There are negatives to this SWE-heavy structure, but it's far better than any other company I've worked for (and I've been around the block).
Why are manhole covers round? (Score:2)
"Why are manhole covers round?"
So that they can maim and kill people as they roll downhill.
Woo hoo!...until... (Score:2)
So, basically, this is the equivalent of SEO for interviewing at Google. Or, in other words, a whole litany of "This would have worked yesterday, but now, DO NOT DO THIS!"
why would anyone want to work for google? (Score:2)
-the doubleclick of the 2000s
-shitty UIs created by incompetent neckbeards
-never ending beta
-NSAs bitch
The key is pretending it's dtenured academia (Score:2, Interesting)
A number of people from my team had accepted recruitment attempts by Google, with my knowledge and support because I couldn't pay them as much and they'd outgrown our technical challenges, and I have roughly a dozen personal acquaintances working there. All confirm that the interview and application review process is so long that by the time Google even discusses salary details or makes an offer, the candidate has usually taken a job elsewhere. So people looking for work who can't wait 3 months or longer wh
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Or it could mean that they tend to hire a lot more people who already have jobs when they apply at Google? If you can't see that your assumption that everyone who applies will be unemployed and unable to secure temporary employment is absurd, then there may be a completely different reason why you didn't get rapidly hired by Google.
The Internship (Score:2)
I recently saw the movie The Internship (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2234155/ for any who are in the dark about a 2-year old flick that is good for a giggle or two). I actually made the mental note not to ever interview at Google, even in an alternate universe where I was younger and actually wanted to live in the US, etc. I was actually thinking: WTF where Google thinking to let themselves be portrayed like that? Then I recognized a few (or quite a few) traits in common with previous workplaces that I work
I'm sick of "round manhole covers can't fall down" (Score:2)
Yes it's true that round manhole covers can't fall down but there are plenty of ways to make sure that manhole covers with other shapes don't fall down : supports, ties, hinges, proper handling procedures, etc...
I believe the primary answer is much simpler : because manholes are round, and manholes are round because it is good shape for a human to fit into, it resists pressure well and it is easy to make.
Additionally, not all manhole covers are round. For example, there are square manhole covers, and they u
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Yes.
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Because manholes are round.
Correct.
The human body is more or less cylindrical, therefore manholes are round, therefore manhole covers are round.
That is the correct answer.
not unless you're morbidly obese (Score:2)
The human body is mostly a rectangle, when viewed from the top down.
Shoulder-width in one direction, belly/nose to back-of-head/butt in the other.
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Uh no, the correct answer is that they're round because that's the same shape as pizzas. How else would the TMNT get deliveries?
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OK. Where I live the covers are rectangular. Please provide an equivalent set of answers on why manhole covers are rectangular.
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OK. Where I live the covers are rectangular. Please provide an equivalent set of answers on why manhole covers are rectangular.
1. People where you live are stupid
2. The things have hinges
2a. The Mayor's brother is heavily invested in a hinge factory
3. With hinges on one side, you can put on a lock to keep inquisitive yet still stupid people out
3a. The Mayor's other brother is heavily invested in a manhole lock company
4. The mayor's brother in law owns the rectangular manhole cover factory
5. The covers are rectangular because the holes are rectangular because the pipes are rectangular
5a. The pipes are rectangular because the mayor's
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I'm sure the slashdot community can add many more.
Round manhole covers were mandated by the International Manhole Cover Ultimate League in 1962. Rule 87b(ii).
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Disagree. I was pursued by Google in 2007 and in 2013 (both times they contacted me out of the blue). I turned thirty in 1988.
My understanding is that they want bright people who can think on their feet. I can still do that, even at my (heh) advanced age. :)
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Why is it so important to think on your feet for a software development position? You need to be able to think *at your desk*.
Because Google is probably not that hiring-retarded, and they know that whatever the age, bright and open minded people are actually pretty rare. So, when a 50+ bright person comes, they may adjust the job description and offer him/her something instead of letting him/her go. Maybe something more managerial.
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Ummm. The median age at Google is 29. You can do the math. There are not many 50+ people there. There are a shitload of 25s.
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Ummm. The median age at Google is 29.
Cite?
I'm a Google employee and have access to some internal statistics, and I can tell you it's older than that. I don't know how much I can share, but I'll mention that the median age for engineers in Google US is closer to 35, and about a quarter of Google US engineers are over 40. That's consistent with my current team; my previous team was older, probably half over 40 with a fair number in their 50s and a few in their 60s.
Further, the median age is climbing. Partly because existing employees are agi
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So, when a 50+ bright person comes, they may adjust the job description and offer him/her something instead of letting him/her go. Maybe something more managerial.
Only if he or she is interested in management. The engineering track at Google goes up to the VP level, so there's no need for engineers to jump over to management unless they want to. I know lots of 50+ engineers at Google (I'm a Google SWE, and 45 years old).
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Hipsters all use standing desks these days, though.
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Later, an internal headhunter told me I had scored off the charts on the first interview, but the hiring committee rejected me because of the school I graduated from.
I don't think so. Google does not give candidates any feedback on the reason they weren't hired.
Also, that makes no sense. I graduated from a school no one has heard of, and they hired me. I have a colleague who didn't go to college at all, didn't even finish high school, and a couple of others that only have associates degrees. Google really doesn't care very much about the school you went to, or if you went to school.
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My "internal headhunter" was called something along the lines of "hiring something", but I can collaborate that point. I was interviewed for a team lead position, and the hiring something told me that they decided I was great technically, but did not have enough experience managing teams of 10 people (why one would need such an experience, and how such a constellation makes sense, is left as an exercise for the reader). He even w
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AFAIK, all candidates get paired with a recruiter, regardless of who contacts whom, at least they do if the process goes to the interview stage, because it's the recruiter who sets all of that up.
I think your recruiter violated policy in saying what he said. In addition, I suspect it may not actually have been true, because from what I know of the hiring process the recruiter doesn't get detailed feedback from the hiring committee on the rationale for the no-hire decision. I suspect the recruiter just tol
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... (I had no paper or pen, just on the telephone) ...
What YEAR was this?!? All of the phone interviews I gave candidates while I was at Google and interviewing people involved them having been sent a Google Docs link beforehand that would allow them to do text or (if they were familiar enough with Docs to open one) freehand drawing.
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Also, does Google do phone interviews for hiring anyone other than interns?
Yes.
If you're part of the interview team, and they are in another country. The interview team could be spread all over, but usually, it's only one or two people who do the phone interview. However, in that case, they're usually in the conference room at a google facility, so you have full on video conference capability, even if it's a two person room. Usually they use a 4 person or larger room so that you have a whiteboard on the wall with a camera pointed at it, and can switch viewpoint and see the whit
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Heh. During my phone screen they sent me the Docs link... but the recruiter had neglected to give me write permission, or to give the interviewer ownership so he could give me write permission. So we just did it verbally.
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how would you move Mt Fuji
Drag and drop. Cut and paste risks accidental deletion and anything else is too far away from direct manipulation to be good UI design.
Re: (Score:2)
Let's go over the Google candidate checklist. Can't log in? Check! Can't use the shift key? Check! Yep, Google is feeling the hurt not hiring you all right!