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Social Networks Censorship Politics

Reddit Updates Content Policy, Bans More Subreddits 410

AmiMoJo writes: Reddit's new CEO, Steve Huffman, announced new a content policy and the banning of a small number of subreddits today. Additionally, some subreddits will be "quarantined", so users can't see their content unless they explicitly opt in. "Our most important policy over the last ten years has been to allow just about anything so long as it does not prevent others from enjoying Reddit for what it is: the best place online to have truly authentic conversations.I believe these policies strike the right balance." The names of the nixed subreddits make clear that they're not exactly neighbors exchanging pleasantries.
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Reddit Updates Content Policy, Bans More Subreddits

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  • Hmmm. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:05AM (#50262095)

    So, it's banning communities of people who draw distasteful pictures, and those who are racist against black people?

    1) Abhorrent as the former are, who are they harming? i.e. what is the objective justification for banning them, beyond, "These people are fucking sick" - probably true, but so what?

    2) While the latter appears may include some groups dedicated to posting gore videos posted without subject consent, there seem to be some fairly mild groups among that list when contrasted with other non-racist harassment groups that have not been banned.

    • by epyT-R ( 613989 )

      Haven't you heard? Words can 'trigger' people, now, somehow...someway. If it hurts 'muh feels' then it's wrong, end of discussion.

      Meanwhile, racial generalizations about white people are perfectly acceptable discourse. They must 'check their privilege' after all as whites 'can't be victims of racism'. For great social justice, we get signal boost!

    • by ameoba ( 173803 )

      It's pretty simple. If you give racists a home on your site, they will start congregating on your site (because nobody else will let them post their openly racist bullshit). The thing is, they don't just stick to the explicitly racist forums, they'll start using the whole site, as any other user. When you have a sizable number of racist users, submitting links, making comments and voting to increase the visibility of content as an organized bloc (remember, all links & comments on Reddit are pushed to

  • by NotDrWho ( 3543773 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:06AM (#50262107)

    * but watch what you say

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        "shadow banning" is a bizarre "banned not banned" situation. The shadowbanned person can post, and to them it looks as if their post goes through but nobody can see the post aside from admins and the poster.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by TWX ( 665546 )
          Shadowbanning is probably the stupidest form of moderator action. It doesn't address the behavior that caused a need for moderator or administrator action. If anything, for users that don't know that they're shadowbanned it makes them think that their abhorrent behavior is okay because they're still allowed to do it.

          The only positive thing that shadowbanning does is to push-off the confrontation so that mods and admins don't have to deal with the day to day pushback from addressing site issues. I supp
          • My understanding is that the intended purpose of shadowbanning was for things like spam bots, with the idea that the bots can detect a normal ban and automatically switch to another non-banned account. At least based on some reddit conversations I've seen, you're not supposed to shadowban real people, but some mods and admins have been misusing the feature.
          • by Mashiki ( 184564 )

            Shadowbanning isn't a moderator action, it's an admin action. You can ban someone from your subreddit, but it takes an admin to shadowban you. Though they say there are 'automated tools' that do it as well, of course the new CEO just finished say that "shadowbans are abused" then turned around and then a former FPH mod was shadowbanned asking why they they banned FPH when it broken none of the rules.

            But hey, SRS is still there...and the vast majority of redditors know why. It's the home of ex-admins and a

      • by tapspace ( 2368622 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:53AM (#50262443)

        I've spoken with reddit users and have heard accusations that shadow bans are being abused. What's involved in shadow banning someone?

        A shadow ban is a ban that is difficult for a bot to figure out (in theory, but it doesn't seem difficult to me). The user cannot tell the difference when logged in. However, their content is not being shown to anyone else. It should be as easy as clicking a permalink to one of your comments, then logging out and viewing the same permalink. If the comment is there when logged out, you are not shadow banned. I believe you can be shadow banned on both a subreddit and sitewide basis.

        I have one non-throwaway reddit account, and I keep it away from the front page or anything controversial. For front paging, I used to use throwaways. Nowadays, I pretty much try to avoid reddit. But, yes in the past, shadow bans seemed to be quite zealously applied. Sure, I've said some controversial and even borderline trolling things. You can basically get shadow banned from a subreddit for offending a moderator. In my experience, shadow banning happens usually because you merely expressed an opinion that diverges from the normative or expected normative position of userbase at reddit, the so-called hivemind. It's permanent. That account is effectively toast.

        Are people being shadow banned for being involved in unpopular sub-reddits?

        That I do not know. Maybe someone should do some experiments.

        • I agree that it does it happen as you state, but the latest statements from the new (old) CEO state that shadow banning should only be used in the case of spam. Now, will that actually be the case? Probably not, but at least you can rest easy in the knowledge that the CEO thinks spamming should be the only reason for shadow banning.
        • > Are people being shadow banned for being involved in unpopular sub-reddits?

          Yes. It first became apparent in various Middle East-related subs. Participation in any "undesirable" or "enemy" thread would get an account banned in all the "friendlies" (much like how passport stamps work over there), and due to the power and pettiness that some mods have amassed, this could become a site or shadow ban.

          The shadow ban is truly insidious in its dishonesty. It may have been a way to combat bot recognition
      • Shadow banning is something admins do when they just don't like you.

        I posted a google search to someone's username, apparently to kids this counts as 'doxxing'.

      • Are people being shadow banned for being involved in unpopular sub-reddits?

        I don't know, but there was period where offensive sub-reddits were locked and required an email address and consent to view. During an interview with the CEO one user asked whether this was a tactic to identify any people who were involved with the sub-reddits. While it remains unsubstantiated it raises an interesting question. I am sure that Reddit logged the email addresses, and we will know within the next couple of weeks whether this was a plan to out visitors for shadowbans or overt bans.

    • by Z00L00K ( 682162 )

      Same thing is silently going on elsewhere as well - like on 4chan.

      The censorship canary is dead!

  • Voat (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Do what every other exile from Reddit has been doing, move on over to voat. It's a lot more reliable now. Every day there's more content. And the users aren't shitty (mostly)!

    • Re:Voat (Score:5, Insightful)

      by 0100010001010011 ( 652467 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @09:01AM (#50262489)

      NO. Stop going to a single site for everything.

      <Back in my day> There were forums dedicated to separate topics. I didn't have to worry about someone judging my post on VWVortex by what I said on Slashdot. I kept separate usernames. Now everyone uses the same username for *everything*. And now every site has a 'facebook' login. I *DO NOT* want all of that stuff linked.

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:10AM (#50262123)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by Carewolf ( 581105 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:20AM (#50262179) Homepage

      among the list of banned subreddits: /r/CoonTown, /r/WatchNiggersDie, /r/bestofcoontown, /r/koontown, /r/CoonTownMods, /r/CoonTownMeta.

      not exactly sterling content that spurs thoughtful collaboration and debate. It harms the reddit brand, but id argue this is less censorship and more spam control. Reddits purpose is entertainment, social networking, and news. If you want flagrant unsubstantiated and indefensible racism, most routers still manage to handle connection requests to the servers at stormfront and about a hundred other different sites.

      What is CoonTown, it is like Arkham City only with Eric Cartman instead of Bruce Wayne?

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by tmosley ( 996283 )
        I'm told it's a place where black on white crime is documented and discussed, since no-one in the media will talk about it, meanwhile any violent act, justified or not, by a white (or quasi-white) person against a violent black felon makes the national news for weeks.

        You can only push the pendulum so far in one direction before it starts to swing back, and violently. Sadly, that is now happening. The West has brought this on itself.
        • by DerekLyons ( 302214 ) <fairwater.gmail@com> on Thursday August 06, 2015 @09:07AM (#50262537) Homepage

          Translation: It's a biased and bigoted subreddit where mental midgets 'justify' their racism.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          You were told wrong. It's a place for overt racism, nothing more. The claim that black people have some kind of "privilege" where their crimes against white people are ignored (LOL) and crimes by white people against black people are sensationalized is just a lame attempt to give it a veneer of credibility. If you read the actual posts on those boards (well, archived copies now) you can see that they are actually just full of abuse by white supremacists.

          As for why white on black crimes seem to make the news

          • by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @10:11AM (#50262959) Homepage Journal

            The claim that black people have some kind of "privilege" where their crimes against white people are ignored (LOL) and crimes by white people against black people are sensationalized

            Well, that does seem to be the trend on the national news these days. Stories of black on white crime, even some bad ones don't seem to get the publicity that white on black crime does. And, from what I understand, more whites are killed by cops annually than black are [washingtontimes.com] ?

            1. Often it's cops doing it, and cops murdering anyone running away from them or sitting in a car is news.

            I agree with this one..horrible. But horrible if a person of ANY race is killed by the cops unjustifiably. ALL lives matter.

            2. Dog bites man != not news. Man bites dog == news.

            Ok, this one, I'm hoping I'm reading your wrong, but this seems a VERY racist statement on your part?? Is the analogy of the role of Dog ==Blacks and Man == Whites? If so, you're saying the norm is for Blacks to kill/commit crimes on whites...which is so common place, it isn't really news?

            That's the translation I'm getting from it....? If not, what did you really mean?

            • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              It's not about numbers, it's about the specific problems that some predominantly black communities have.

              Also, my "man bites dog" point is based on an old refers to an old phrase. It's not a comparison, it merely highlights the fact that the media is more interested in uncommon events than in common ones. Maybe it's not a common phrase where you are, I thought it was fairly universal.

              • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

                by Anonymous Coward

                Good point, isn't it great to have this discourse to benefit of all who read it. Rather than censor those we disagree with, shouldn't we engage them?

              • by tmosley ( 996283 )
                Black on white crime is common? Much more so that white on black crime? And no-one talks about it? Those who do are racist?

                There is something legitimately wrong with you.
              • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

                by Anonymous Coward

                Most crime is not interracial. Black person is more likely to kill another black person, and a white person is more likely to kill another white person (FBI statistics).

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by citylivin ( 1250770 )

          Yes, all those poor oppressed white people by the black powers of the world. When will they get justice!

          Racists. Always think they are oppressed. Well they are, and for good reasons. Same as religious zealots.

    • Redundancy (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      If you want flagrant unsubstantiated and indefensible racism, most routers still manage to handle connection requests to the servers at stormfront and about a hundred other different sites.

      That's exactly what I figured, too. There's already perfectly good places on the Internet for these folks to go. Maybe these sites aren't as cool 'n hip as Reddit, but then, coolness and hipness aren't so much of a concern for racists, are they? :-)

      I kind of can't help but wonder if the older-school douchebags on Stormfront et al. will be happy to get the influx of new blood, or if it'll be their equivalent of Eternal September....

    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06, 2015 @09:25AM (#50262645)

      It harms the reddit brand, but id argue this is less censorship and more spam control.

      I'd argue that it is censorship, and ultimately it does damage the reddit brand.

      People are being racist and horrible on your internet site. Get over it. Supporting free speech means defending people's rights and ability to speak, even if it is about things you do not like, be it pornography or racism. The increasingly shill excuses that these people in sites and subreddits most of us have never heard of people are "harassing" others is simply a hysterical veneer on a coldly calculated censorship drive.

      Ban these racist sites today, what comes tomorrow? I'm sure there's a subreddit for so called "interracial porn". Is that racist? Does that get banned? What about subreddits promoting interracial marraige? Same sex marraige? Gay rights? You can easily find LOTS of people who think all of those are offensive. Do they get quarantined so reddit can maintain a cleaner media image? Go the other way in the US culture wars. What about subreddits against gay marraige? Against divorce? Promoting conservative religous values in society? Again LOTS of people are offended by those. Do we quarantine those too? Subreddits covering islamic terrorism? Incidents in the West Bank? Systemd criticism?

      What is the condition for quarantine here? When does free speech break down? Answer: After a 2-3 year slow burn media campaign to demonize reddit for allowing subreddits to exist which offend media owners.

      Reddit started off as a free speech site. Create the forum you want. For the last few years the presence of these relatively small racist or unpolitically correct subreddits has drawn the ire of those with media influence, and reddit has been placed under gigantic social and media pressure to effectively, enforce "basic standards of decency". Hence this quarantine.

      You may agree that reddit was justified in conforming to the pressure in this case. But the next group to put media pressure on the site may not be the group you agree with. Reddit has made a decisive turn away from its free speech principles, and some of those applauding now will come to regret the loss of the promise that site once offered.

  • by Runaway1956 ( 1322357 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:13AM (#50262143) Homepage Journal

    All kinds of forums, from Facebook on down to unheard of boards with a dozen members, have their rules. Some of them really piss me off, because they want only language, thoughts, and images that would be acceptable in kindergarden, or Sunday School. They REALLY piss me off.

    On the other hand - "/r/WatchNiggersDie" - WTF? Hey - you don't have to like black people. You don't have to love them. You don't have to live with a black person. You don't have to talk to them. If you're so bigoted that you can't abide a black person in your life, well, it's your loss. Hate, all you want. You have no right to expect normal people to accept, or even tolerate, the kind of shit I would expect on that forum.

    If you're that hateful, go post on Stormfront. You'll be welcome over there, I believe. But, they DO have some rules that you'll have to abide by.

    Funny - every community has rules to live by. Even a community of haters. Don't like the rules, go elsewhere, or make your own board.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      > Literally "I'm opposed to censorship BUT" post
      > Give emotional justification "They REALLY piss me off"
      > Infantalises opposing argument "kindergarden"
      > Say moral majorty > speech rights "normal people to accept, or even tolerate"
      > Mentions Stormfront
      > Go somewhere else/Internet is private mall freedom excuse

      Basically 90% of the main social justice cultism in one post. It sounds reasonable, but suddenly now we're all OK with censoring others on the internet, even if we don't participate

  • by vivaoporto ( 1064484 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:27AM (#50262221)
    The top voted comments on that thread, an interesting enough point that is not being dealt with in these last rounds of purges. Reposted here without changes for benefit of the Slashdot audience.

    Last week an SRS user went nearly four years into my history and posted this in /r/ShitRedditSays:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays/comments/3fkp3m/010212_petition_to_ban_rrapingwomen_sorry_cant/ [reddit.com]

    Taken with zero context, and without considering this happened in the midst of Reddit banning a few subs and /u/violentacrez getting doxxed, SRS users decided that I was tolerant of rape, or beating women, that I was lazy, a shit-poster, pandering to my "audience", suggested SRS users go to Amazon to see what a piece of shit I was, that I thought "rape" was "freedom of speech", and that I was objectively wrong and thought "freedom of speech" was moderating a website.

    They hadn't bothered to read the rest of my comments, where I said "If this were MY company and these subreddits were on MY board, I'd delete them in a heartbeat, because I find them personally offensive."

    I was banned from SRS years ago (not for commenting, just because one of the mods thought I should be -- that's their prerogative) so I messaged the SRS admins and asked for a chance to respond, considering this post was #1 in SRS.

    http://imgur.com/Z8EJh1c [imgur.com]

    As you can see, the only response was "ROFL".

    /r/Fatpeoplehate [reddit.com] was created to mock people based on a subjective perception.

    /r/Coontown [reddit.com] was created to mock people based on a subjective perception.

    /r/Shitredditsays [reddit.com] was created to mock people based on a subjective perception.

    This is their stated purpose:

    "Have you recently read an upvoted Reddit comment that was bigoted, creepy, misogynistic, transphobic, racist, homophobic, or just reeking of unexamined, toxic privilege? Of course you have! Post it here."

    They exist to mock and harass Reddit users.

    we are banning a handful of communities that exist solely to annoy other redditors, prevent us from improving Reddit, and generally make Reddit worse for everyone else.

    Your words.

    Please explain to me how holding other people up to ridicule without even allowing them to respond is good for reddit, encourages participation, and makes Reddit a safe place to express our opinions and ALSO differs from the subs you've banned.

    EDIT: And this comment was already linked in SRS:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays/comments/3fx49i/meta_spezs_new_content_policy_unveiled_ctown_and/ctsvdrb?context=3 [reddit.com]

    mfw /u/WarLizard[1] pulls the "WHAT ABOUT SRS" card after being linked here. He regularly contributes to /r/KotakuInAction [reddit.com] [2], not sure why he feels like he'd be welcome here at all. He's also complaining about the existence of SRS, so yeah right there he'd be banned. Oh no, a sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic post was made and got linked here. WOULD ANYONE THINK OF THE RACIST'S FEELINGS?

    This is a perfect example.

    I have posted in KiA, and it has been fascinating to talk with the people there. Much like it has been fascinating to talk to the people in GamerGhazi.

    But without context, someone might assume that because I've posted or commented there that I'm racist, mi

    • Came to post this.

      Admins must be trollin'. There is absolutely no way they are not aware that SRS is the most toxic sub there is. They do more direct damage to individual users than every other sub combined. And not a peep from the admins. Double-U Tee Eff.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The original post, right at the very top, explains this. Shame you scrolled down too fast to read it... I guess Reddit is like Slashdot, no-one reads TFS, just the headline.

      The banned the boards that give them the most grief, and quarantined the most popular ones with objectionable content. The boards that were unaffected are either not causing their staff to waste a large proportion of their time on them, or they are not popular enough to bother quarantining.

      Their approach is to simply deal with issues as

      • This exchange [reddit.com] seems to contradict that they don't consider /r/ShitRedditSays/ a problem but the remedies they are willing to try on that subreddit are very different from similarly problematic ones.

        spez -944 points 18 hours ago

        For the the time being we believe that brigading is best fought with technology, which we are actively working on.

        Synsc 894 points 18 hours ago

        What does that mean exactly?

        spez -772 points 17 hours ago

        It means that we can see downvoting brigades in that data, and we

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          I don't see how that contradicts the top post. What they are saying is that they want to improve Reddit generally by preventing block voting, rather than having to fire fight individual issues on certain subreddits.

          • by vivaoporto ( 1064484 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @10:43AM (#50263183)
            The complaint is about the difference in the treatment of two similar problem subreddits: FPH and SRS, along with the current batch of banned ones.

            The former got banned (according to the official explanation) not because of their ideas but because of the behaviour of their members (doxxing, harassing). The current batch was banned because (according to the official explanation) they "are banning a handful of communities that exist solely to annoy other redditors, prevent us from improving Reddit, and generally make Reddit worse for everyone else".

            SRS exhibits the same behaviour that got FPH banned (brigading, harassing) and arguably exhibits the same behaviour that was used to justify the banishment of the current batch: existing "solely to annoy other redditors".

            The above posted explanation from the admin admits SRS is a problem but only touches the brigading and anti brigading measures.

            It gives the impression that existing "solely to annoy other redditors" was not the real reason for banning the current batch and that "doxxing and harassing" was not the real reason for banning FPH.
  • Oy Vey! (Score:3, Funny)

    by ZankerH ( 1401751 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:28AM (#50262229)
    Your rights end where my feelings begin! Shut it down, goyim!
    • Your rights end where my feelings begin! Shut it down, goyim!

      Yep, Reddit's right to host whatever the hell it wants ends where the feelings of the inhabitants of /r/coontown begin!

  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @08:29AM (#50262235)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • I agree in principle. I think more research needs to be done to find a way to "treat" (for lack of a better word) pedophiles (those who are sexually attracted to children) so they do not become molesters (those who act on their attraction). But we don't know for a fact that animated CP helps or hurts in that regard.

      And in general, I'm fairly sure it's still illegal in the US. I didn't think it was the last time I had this discussion, but someone linked me to a case of a man who was imprisoned for importing

    • Stop being the voice of reason, Gaygirlie, there's no room for that here! :)

      If I had mod points, they'd be yours.
  • HERE'S AN IDEA... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Why not allow the USER to decide what they do or do not want to see, rather than using corporate sponsored censorship? I dunno maybe some kind of "block list" they can set for their own account?

    The point of free speech principles is that you can't protect the important speech without bringing along all forms of speech, even stupid ones, because the alternative is the slippery slope of censorship and deciding who should have the power to do it. But even in the ideal case, it is the right of *each person* to

  • by claytongulick ( 725397 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @09:43AM (#50262771) Homepage

    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one’s time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.

                    — HL Mencken

    • Except the scoundrels aren't under attack. If there were serious attempts to prevent said scoundrels from hosting/posting this stuff anywhere online, then yeah there would be a problem. Reddit doesn't want to spend money to give a platform to these people and that is 100% fine.

      If these people want a platform they can pay for it themselves, for example by going over to Dreamhost. I have no affiliation except that they host several small websites of mine. For a rather small amount of money per year they will

    • I will see your H.L. Mencken and raise you a Karl Popper:

      "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. – In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by r

      • It blows my mind that someone would be able to read that paragraph without an ominous chill going down their spine. What hes really saying is, "some people have disgusting philosophies that are at the same time difficult to unseat. Therefore we should have the right to deem them outside the law so that such dangerous ideas do not proliferate."

        The very notion that there are "dangerous ideas" that cannot be allowed is chilling, moreso because some apparently believe it.

  • PC Echo chamber (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Slowly but surely, Reddit has deliberately reformed itself to be a politically correct echo chamber. The policies only touch those who voice politically incorrect opinions. This is nothing more than thought policing.

    This will ultimately be its undoing, and will significantly improve the quality of discussion in whatever follows, as the signal to noise ratio will be considerably higher when the usual parrots are left to their own devices.

    This kind of behavior is normal in media once it reaches certain trac

  • by Snufu ( 1049644 ) on Thursday August 06, 2015 @09:56AM (#50262867)

    If Reddit shuts off the supply, how will anyone express an opinion on the internet? Nobody has the capability to reverse engineer the decades or proprietary research and technology that enables posting comments on an internet forum.

  • Its their site they can make creat the rules as they damn well please. They also are not your rights defenders. The only thing i don't like is where can you go and be as hateful as you wish? You cant run websites from your own PC ISPs don't allow it so you have to rent a server and then abide by their rules as well so.... I think we should all be allowed to run a non commercial web site from our own PCs so we can trustfully have free speech. That,s what the Internet was all about in the first place right no

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