DoD Award To Recognize Drone Operators (securityweek.com) 144
wiredmikey writes: According to a Pentagon memo due out today, the US military will create a new way to recognize drone operators and other service members who contribute to America's fighting efforts from afar. The military is set to introduce a new "R" designation — known as a "device" — that can be attached to medals given to drone operators and other non-combat troops, such as cyber warriors who hack enemy networks. Former defense secretary Chuck Hagel nixed a proposed new combat medal for US troops who launch drone strikes or cyber attacks, after a torrent of criticism from veterans and lawmakers. Drone pilots have complained of low morale, long hours and of the psychological impacts stemming from killing people remotely.
Recognize them??? (Score:5, Insightful)
For what?
Aren't military medals supposed to be for noble things like bravery, heroism, or honour? What's honourable about taking out an opponent from so far away that the risk to yourself is nonexistent?
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Re:Recognize them??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Medals are for recognition - sure you might be hiding in a control room, but there are circumstances where what you did deserves recognition.
Drones are often deployed in support roles - providing an eyes in the sky view for the ground team, for example. While out on patrol, the ground team gets pinned because of an unknown shooter. So while their lives are in danger, the drone operator flies around and then sports the shooter and relays their coordinates to the ground team so they know where to look and try to take it out.
At the end of the mission, those guys on the ground are thankful for the drone operator to provide support - it could've ended very badly. Perhaps the guy in the air conditioned control room stateside should get a little recognition for that? Because I'm sure that team doesn't care about the drone operator's working conditions, but they're damn appreciative he was there.
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He didn't put his own safety on the line to go help out his buddies, he just leant slightly on the joystick and told them what he saw. Fair enough if he leapt on a plane and flew over there, tracked down the shooter and beat him up, I'd agree with you entirely. A medal is supposed to be for actions performed, not for how warm and fuzzy you make others. Handing them out like tic tacs makes any medal worth less.
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He didn't put his own safety on the line to go help out his buddies, he just leant slightly on the joystick and told them what he saw.
There is all manner of tit candy to be handed out, and it isn't all for the ground or forward troops.
Your you have to be in imminent danger of death or GTFO outlook is a little insulting to the 80 percent of soldiers who aren't there, but for whom those on the front line wouldn't be able to do there job.
Someone keeps those tanks and planes and ships running, and they take their jobs very seriously, and the people in those tanks and planes and ships are thankful they do.
And just to piss ya off, here i
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Didn't you read a word he said? Giving medals to everyone DILUTES the honour of getting one where you BRAVELY RISKED YOUR OWN LIFE. I consider your post an insult to real war veterans.
I read everything. I respect all our soldiers, not just the ones on the front line.
And quite frankly - if you don't want anyone but front liners to get awards, take it up with the armed services, they agree with me, not you.
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It's really quite simple, the soldiers on the front line are brave. The ones at desks aren't. They may be just as useful, but they don't deserve the same recognition. A postman is as useful as a fireman, but guess which one should win medals?
As I said - take it up with the services. I agree with them, you don't. That makes it your problem, not mine.
So tell me how you make out - a simple problem like that, they'll take your advice, maybe even retroactively take medals away form the undeserving.
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No it doesn't make it my problem, it makes it that you're wrong and so are they and I'm laughing at your stupidity right now. Your second sentence needs remedial work, go back to school.
Blah blah blah, Sorry, pal. I'm just fine with the US military and their system. You are not. You lose, no matter wht you think. You see, all military units do this sort of thing, award medals and rewards. It isn't new, and it's universal.
And my dear chachalaca - you don't get to make the rules. You just sit there with your weird and completely off ideas, and let the rest of us lead the way.
Because when you are the only one right, and the rest of the entire world is wrong - it ain't the world - its yo
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He didn't put his own safety on the line to go help out his buddies, he just leant slightly on the joystick and told them what he saw.
Some operators actually launch missiles at people whom they've been observing for a while - it's not all just recon work.
A medal is supposed to be for actions performed, not for how warm and fuzzy you make others. Handing them out like tic tacs makes any medal worth less.
It turns out that, (just as with first responders such as paramedics), PTSD is common among drone operators. I have no opinion on whether the operators deserve medals - I'm not a military kind of guy, and I think we should be working harder on ways to stop wars altogether. But I don't think it's either fair or practical to ignore or minimize the psychological trauma suffered by those memb
I hope they give medals to the cafeteria staff. (Score:2)
That cup of coffee kept that marine alert long enough to dodge that IED!
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> Drones are often deployed in support roles
Is that what bombing weddings is being called now? Support roles, like supporting paid informant's careeers of lies maybe.
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Why the fuck should I support your troops? So we get to deal with even more refugees here?
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Please, please tell me you're being a brat here. I'm a Veteran, an Infantryman and think that any 'medal' to a drone pilot is ridiculous;
Go down through the list and tell us which awards and medals shouldn't be handed out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Some will probably really get you pissed, like the efficiency awards or the good behavior awards, professional development medals.
Some are just recognition medals, like the Coast Guard person of the year medal.
Tit candy. It's part of the culture, and used as a morale and team booster. I'm surprised that someone who served is apparently against that.
Certainly in Pop culture, ther
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
I highly doubt you are a veteran if you weren't aware that medals are given out in the military just for not getting in trouble on base during peacetime.
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Will SJWs cry a river of jaded tears if I refuse to make cakes for drones?
Re:Recognize them??? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'm not in the business of relieving you of your sense of chivalry and fair combat. If I could kill terrorists with mind bullets or an Android tablet while sipping a mai tai on a beach I would happily do so.
Drones help good guys kill bad guys in greater comfort. Greater comfort means more dead bad guys. If we make the good guys comfortable enough: eventually we will run out of bad guys and our politicians will have to make up new enemies to kill to keep the war economy going. This is the ultimate goal that
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In the case of combatting terrorism, putting bad guys in a hole in the ground who would otherwise kill hundreds or thousands of other innocent people is only the very bare *MINIMUM* standard of success... and while that is still a very positive goal, I do not think that it, by itself, should warrant being decorated. Being awarded a medal should, in my view, also involve doing something where the person has taken on at least some kind of personal ri
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Thank you AC for saying what I didn't have the words to.
Of course there is nuance. It's unavoidable to have to think about the problems genocidal dictators present for the world. Child soldiers, just general oppression and just generally terrible people in positions of power.
War should never, ever be necessary, but sometimes it's less bad than the alternatives of inaction. Getting sane human beings to willingly kill other people is difficult and comes with consequences. Commenters here seem to be mostly uni
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I think it would be more interesting to hear what you think a sniper does, because if you are equating the dangers faced by a drone operator and those faced by a sniper, you have no concept of the dangers involved (or not) in at least one of those categories.
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For what?
Aren't military medals supposed to be for noble things like bravery, heroism, or honour? What's honourable about taking out an opponent from so far away that the risk to yourself is nonexistent?
I guess politicians and presidential candidates can get medals too...
Re:Recognize them??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Aren't military medals supposed to be for noble things like bravery, heroism, or honour?
I served in the military, and was awarded several medals. None of them were for bravery, heroism, or honour. Most of them were for being in the right place at the right time, such as the SASM [wikipedia.org] and the NDSM [wikipedia.org]. I also got a NAM [wikipedia.org], or "atta boy medal" for doing my job during a peacetime deployment.
I don't see any reason drone operators shouldn't get a medal of their own. They are doing more to earn it than I did.
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^This
Not giving them medals is like not giving medals to missile or torpedo operators. They did their part in their way, working with everyone in the military for a common goal.
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And this is what we're reduced to.
Now we have participation trophies in the military.
Everyone's a winner.
What's the point of these if everyone gets them?
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The point is that it publicly shows what the person has done during their service. Not everyone gets the same medals because not everyone does the same things.
But I get your point. Modern military medals are basically the same as achievements in video games.
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And this is what we're reduced to. Now we have participation trophies in the military. Everyone's a winner. What's the point of these if everyone gets them?
There are different medals for different things, and you'd better believe that members of the military look at, say, a Silver Star or a Distinguished Service Medal very differently from an achievement medal. Medals of lower value do still have value. The offer a chance for recognition in front of your peers, in a persistent way (since you wear ribbons or medals on some of your uniforms), they provide a persistent proof of competence and capability in your personnel file (helpful for determining promotions)
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Now we have participation trophies in the military.
Everyone's a winner.
What's the point of these if everyone gets them?
Umm, you need to check out the medals that are given out. Your lament about participation trophies has been the case for a long long time. You are there, you do your job, you'll have some tit candy.
Everyone's a winner, and you're a whiner.
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Aren't military medals supposed to be for noble things like bravery, heroism, or honour?
I served in the military, and was awarded several medals. None of them were for bravery, heroism, or honour.
Exactly. What I find odd is the people who have claimed military service, yet seem to think that there are only 4 medals. Medals are part of the culture, and as such, a rather nice part of the culture.
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I bet the good conduct medal really pisses 'em off. Hell, if ya gotta couple of pizza boxes on your chest some of us know that you got 'em just for being able to shoot straight but we appreciate that. It's not like every medal is the Medal of Honor. (One pizza box is bigger than the other one.) Of course, those pizza boxes are really badges but I suspect that the person complaining doesn't actually know the difference.
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That depends a lot on whether you believe in following both international and US law. Committing what is in fact assassinations on foreign soil is not what I'd call worthy of a medal. These drone ops, and their commanding officers, should all be court-martialed.
As for their counterparts over at CIA, they should be shipped to Daesh headquarters to be utilized as that bunch of crazies see fit.
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Please hang yourself.
Re: Recognize them??? (Score:2)
I wonder if maybe the risk of psychological harm is exceptionally high?
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I wonder if maybe the risk of psychological harm is exceptionally high?
I suspect, fairly high. While the work takes on a video game aspect, the brain still knows at some level that you are killing people, and it gets stored away.
Something similar might be how soldiers have been drilled in hand to hand combat with some very effective killing moves. It's been repeated with other soldiers (without that final kill move) so many times that it becomes muscle memory, and reflexive. So the thought that I've just killed someone gets buried, only to come out later.
I've seen the publ
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Re:Recognize them??? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, incorrect. While some awards (e.g. the Bronze Star, Medal of Honor) are given for unusual behavior (e.g. heroism), the military has the worlds' original badge system. There are badges for everything. For example, you can get the Silver Chevron if you've served in a war but stateside for at least six months (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]).
So it's entirely reasonable to say "there's something distinctive about this group that merits its own device" -- most devices have nothing to do with heroism.
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Actually, incorrect. While some awards (e.g. the Bronze Star, Medal of Honor) are given for unusual behavior (e.g. heroism), the military has the worlds' original badge system. There are badges for everything.
This is true as long as you're speaking about the US military. It seems like you guys get 9 medals before even completing basic. The same cannot be said for other countries. Most Commonwealth nations are much more stingy with medals - if you end up with 5 or 6 in your whole career, you've done well.
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Honorable? Fuck that. As a famous General once said (paraphrased), it's not about dying for your country, but making some other poor bastard die for his. However, it's not just pushing a button, is it? Unless you want to discount what's becoming a huge crisis in mental disorders from drone operation (as the article noted). Killing real, live people on a video screen, it turns out, has quite a bit of psychological baggage that we're beginning to understand. I'm actually relieved that we're finding thi
Re:Recognize them??? (Score:5, Insightful)
For what?
Aren't military medals supposed to be for noble things like bravery, heroism, or honour? What's honourable about taking out an opponent from so far away that the risk to yourself is nonexistent?
Which is exactly why their morale is so low - which in turn is what military medals are for...to raise the morale of someone doing a shit job well so that they keep doing it well.
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It sure beats paying more. At least on the expenses level.
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It sure beats paying more. At least on the expenses level.
Base pay is associated with rank, which is a separate thing. Earning important medals will definitely improve your chances of promotion which will get you more money but by design the two are separate, and not for fiscal reasons.
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You are aware that military pay is public right? Your claim is utter bullshit. As an O-4 (the highest rank someone is likely to be sitting in the seat as their primary duty) with >10 years in service, with BAH for Las Vegas (near one of the AF main drone bases) & BAS you're only going to be making ~ $106K.
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Which is exactly why their morale is so low - which in turn is what military medals are for...to raise the morale of someone doing a shit job well so that they keep doing it well.
Well, there's some fucked logic for you.
Can't believe you or anyone else feels that morale is low because some Airman isn't wearing yet another pretty ribbon on a uniform they rarely even wear to work.
PTSD isn't caused by medal deficiency. Or a lack of fucking awards and atta-boy ceremonies. Not sure when people are going to wake up to that fact, but I'm not surprised the Military has taken the cheapest route to "fix" morale.
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You'd be surprised at how much an award can raise morale. Also, you'd probably bitch if they spent more money. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've seen you bitching about the military's budget in the past.
(I too think we spend too much. We should just stop being the World Police or start charging other countries to do it for them.)
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So we are going to treat our soldiers like children now? Oh, you did your job! Good for you, here's a gold star!
At best it diminished the significance of being worthy of receiving a medal in the first place if they are going to give medals to people who don't do anything but the minimum that was expected of them.
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They are children. We've always sent the kids off to war. You quite literally get a Good Conduct Medal for just keeping your shit squared away and not pissing anyone off. You get awards for being able to fire your weapon accurately - I have two. No, they don't all mean a fuck of a lot but they're much the same as insignia to those who know how to read them. You're, for your own reasons, placing far more stock in them than is needed. I've never counted but I suspect that there's a whole bunch that haven't a
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So we are going to treat our soldiers like children now? Oh, you did your job! Good for you, here's a gold star!
You're either not a parent or haven't served in our Military. I can speak to both with experience and confidence. They are children.
At best it diminished the significance of being worthy of receiving a medal in the first place if they are going to give medals to people who don't do anything but the minimum that was expected of them.
(looks over all the pathetic reasons we issue awards and ribbons today)
Yup, bit too fucking late for that.
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For what?
Aren't military medals supposed to be for noble things like bravery, heroism, or honour? What's honourable about taking out an opponent from so far away that the risk to yourself is nonexistent?
Which is exactly why their morale is so low - which in turn is what military medals are for...to raise the morale of someone doing a shit job well so that they keep doing it well.
I would say you have a poor understanding of morale then. Morale is not simply how "good" or "happy" everybody feels. Morale is also about having everyone working towards the same goal. A group of people with excellent morale believe that they are the best XYZ in the world, that they do an excellent job, and that nobody can beat them at it. The trick is that when you start to believe that, you want to defend those beliefs by taking action to ensure that the group truly is what you believe it to be. So
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Well what is honorable about war anyway? Every war I ever looked at turned out to be based on money and lies anyway. Its always been the people in power conning the poor into fighting for them.
The reason they tell you war is honorable is just the marketing of it. It never was.
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Most military people who work with drones don't do so by choice. They are assigned to a unit and they have very little, if any (generally none but sometimes they have some) say over what that unit does. If it's a ground unit in place in a combat zone, they get shot at. If it's a drone unit they don't. It doesn't make their work any less valuable to the military and any less worthy of recognition. Would you want to be overlooked for promotions because of an assignment you had no control over? Medals do
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Medals are for a large number of things.
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No, some of them are for more mundane things like "good conduct" or "achievement" or "meritorious service". I'd expect a drone medal to be in the latter categories; it's not going to be equivalent to a Silver Star.
Yeah, that argument has been going on since archers were introduced. But the point of a war is to win,
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Re:The Yellowbelly Medal (Score:4, Insightful)
Like, say, Generals?
"psychological impacts" (Score:3, Insightful)
the psychological impacts stemming from killing people remotely
Also called conscience, but no worries... a little piece of decorative metal will make it so worth it!
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The conscience side is been worked on too. Expect a lot of new very well funded Hollywood movies, TV series, comics, books and other web 2.0 media to show a nice new friendly side to the contractor remote military industrial complex.
With the Smith–Mundt Act been reworked to allow domestic propaganda Smith–Mundt Act [wikipedia.org] a flood of domestic good news stories can be gov funded to win hearts and minds about the
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"Was it our bomb or their bomb that killed them?"
"Doesn't matter."
"Of course it does!"
"Not to them"
Points! (Score:2)
No metals, just points for targets and efficiency.
No. (Score:2, Insightful)
Many in my family have received medals, Gold, Bronze, Silver Stars to name those I remember clearly, there where others, over the courses of their military careers. In each case it was because they put there lives on the line for their country. On more than one occasion my father almost didn't come back from his combat postings. When I was a child he showed me each medal and told me the story of why it was given to him, and the names of the people who didn't come back from those mission
Slight edit. (Score:2)
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And otherwise you are wrong. There are many medals, and many ways to earn those medals. Not all require direct personal combat or extreme danger. Such makes getting such medals far easier, but such medals can also be earned for non-combat roles. For combat awards a V d
Re:No. (Score:5, Insightful)
Just because you have a history of some people in your family getting medals for doing some real combat doesn't change the fact that medals are given out for a wide variety of reasons, not all of them to do with combat, and in some cases given out without even being at war, or for just being deployed in the correct country not necessarily doing any combat.
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"a joystick jocky sitting in a cozy air conditioned room and going home to a safe warm bed in the USA "
Back in 2009 I met a drone operator on leave from Iraq while travelling in Eastern Europe. He was on his third redeployment. He was stationed on-base in Iraq and was happy. At that time, weaponizing drones was a rumour. According to the media, they were surveillance devices. I would have *loved* to ask him all kinds of questions about his job, but that would be very, very, rude. I bought him a be
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Does anyone *know* that these guys are operating from the U.S.?
Just based on available communication channels and lag times, I would assume that any real-time combat drones would need to be closer to the action. Automated drones that just have a camera feed and self-navigate via GPS could probably have operators stationed stateside but they aren't really being piloting at that point. To actually pilot a drone, not crash into obstacles, and hit moving targets is going to require lag times similar to what video games require and satellite and/or transcontinental cables
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There are units in the US piloting drones overseas. Full combat missions. What you think you know about lag times (with respect to what they are and what is realistically achievable) is inaccurate.
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Many in my family have received medals, Gold, Bronze, Silver Stars to name those I remember clearly, there where others, over the courses of their military careers. In each case it was because they put there lives on the line for their country.
They also got other medals for other things. Ask them. Not all medals are about valor.
Re: No. (Score:3)
I think you misread the article. They are specifically NOT combat awards. They will have an R device, not a V device (for valor).
By the way, I think your post was unnecessarily inflammatory. Drone operators are military members. They still deploy when and where they're told. They still show up on terrorist target lists for stateside attacks. Calling them "joystick jockeys" and comparing them to Call of Duty gamers is petulant. They've done more to risk their lives for the country than most.
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Those people you mention that got those medals? Look at the rest of them instead of the pretty ones. You literally get one for keeping yourself squared away and not doing stupid shit - it's called the Good Conduct Medal. If they have those others that you mention, chances are pretty good that they have at least that one and a number of badges.
Maybe you should ask those family members for a little more history or look at more then the pretty medals and learn what they actually mean.
Yes!! (Score:1)
Drone pilots have complained of low morale, long hours and of the psychological impacts stemming from killing people remotely.
Yes, they should be required to be up close and personal before qualifying for medal. I'd say 72hrs straight hours in the field without sleep and personally watching the life fade out of their opponents eyes as they plunge their dagger deep into them should be the minimum for any medal to be earned.
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Nope. If you don't experience the life draining out of your enemy's body there is no honor. Killing from a distance is cowardice.
A more appropriate form of recognition (Score:2)
You have to make the reward fit the audience you're dealing with. They have to understand and value what they get.
20 years ago I would have said what you need is a high score board. But today, well, probably giving them some purple uniform pieces with over-the-top shoulder parts would be more fitting.
Ultimate REMF (Score:2)
These people are the ultimate REMF.
They are obviously *waay* to the rear and - I suppose owing to faulty or outdated intelligence - quite a few of their targets turned out to be families. Some will have been families of terrorists, others not even that. From what I read, drone attacks have a similar effect in radicalising people in the surrounding areas as suicide bombers do. That includes the 911 crew.
Do REMFs normally get medals above and beyond those for "I was involved in that campaign"?
Maybe.. (Score:2)
Achievement unlocked, "Bloody Mess: Destroy a house of worship with at least a 2:1 combatant:civilian ratio"
Oh and hats, we should have hats....
Bonus (Score:2)
android (Score:1)
Ready Player One (Score:1)
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It's funny that you say that. I ended up transferring to be a chaser/escort but my MOS 3531 and that was the only time I saw combat. (You might want to search to find out what that MOS is.)
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Leaders can't just give more pay or benefits, but they can give awards as recognition and those awards do help towards promotions and thus more pay.