Jeep/Chrysler's New Gearshift Appears To Be Causing Accidents (roadandtrack.com) 567
bartle writes: The new gearshift design for the Jeep Grand Cherokee appears to be causing rollaway accidents: 121 crashes and 30 injuries so far. The gear shifter is designed to look and feel similar to a traditional automatic gear shift lever but it is meant to cycle through the gears rather than move directly to a certain gear. A driver who is used to placing their vehicle in park by pressing the shifter all the way forward may instead be setting it to neutral before exiting the vehicle. The NHTSA is investigating.
So what should we do? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Insightful)
I dunno. Is this gearshifter 'progress' or is it just a gimmick gone wrong?
Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So what should we do? (Score:4, Funny)
This reminds me of the worst interface design I've seen in a long time. This Holmes heater: http://www.amazon.com/Holmes-H... [amazon.com]
Brilliant idea. One single button. You have to push it repeatedly to go through every temperature setting with low fan, then press it repeatedly to go through all the temperatures again in high fan speed. Absolutely the stupidest design I've ever seen. I would like to see them design a computer keyboard. Those brilliant minds would give us a keyboard with one button you press repeatedly a hundred times to enter a single character.
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Sounds exactly like Hakko soldering gear, you pay >$500 for soldering station and end up with 1985 alarm clock/wristwatch type of interface for setting up temperature.
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I have both digital and analogue Hakko irons. I think you misunderstand what the interface is designed to do. To be fair, the English manual doesn't explain it all that well.
Hakko irons are used in production environments. You don't want stray button presses to alter the iron temperature. You want a very definite sequence of inputs to do that. The newer ones have a little plastic key that blocks input when removed, but they retained the old button press sequence because people were already familiar with it.
Re:So what should we do? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ugh, yeah, I hate those sorts of design decisions. I challenge the assertion that it's a brilliant idea though, except perhaps in a "sounds good in advertisements" way - there's a reason buttons tend to show up in groups, because individually they are an *extremely* limited interface.
You can't efficiently choose between more than two states with a single button - cycling is pretty much your only option without a non-trivial tap-code. And that means, on average, cycling through half of the states to get where you want to be. Multiple buttons can be used to reduce the problem by cycling through orthogonal options, or even offering a discrete button for each state.
Personally I prefer multistate switches: Twist the knob (or slide the slider) to the position that reflects your desire and be done with it. One single motion chooses between several options, and once you establish muscle-memory you can achieve precise results as soon as your hand finds a single control, even in complete darkness.
But sadly cost is typically a high design priority, and buttons are usually cheaper to integrate into a device than multistate switches, and the fewer the buttons the cheaper. Which leads to cool-sounding ad copy being used to spin cost-cutting compromises into slick-sounding "features"
Re: So what should we do? (Score:5, Informative)
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Reading the article (I know..), this is a very odd shifter lever. It isn't a manual gear shift, it is P R N D/S (the newfangled automatic manual selection transmission), but it always returns to center, it doesn't stay at the park position. Also, if they car isn't in park, it doesn't shut off the engine, which is an odd design choice as well. I am not entirely sure how you actually put it in park, it sounds like you hold the button and push it all the way forward, but that seems like it would just work a
Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Funny)
Just wait til you hear my idea -- just do the shifting from a touchscreen! I'll link you the Kickstarter once I've filed the patent.
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The old MOPAR push button tranny actuator is prior art.
and also a much better plan, I wonder why they didn't just use push buttons. it woulda been chrysler retro, which would have fit the trend in Jeep styling.
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I think the Edsel predates that with the push buttons to select gears on the steering wheel.
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You touch the steering wheel with your nose to change gears.
This way your hands remain on the wheel at all times.
There is an issue with airbag deployment while shifting but the workaround is simple, don't be the person driving at that time.
Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Funny)
Almost as good an idea as the Kegel shifter.
Re:So what should we do? (Score:4, Funny)
"Siri, please shift into park, please." "And open the pod bay doors, while you're at it."
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Well there's a reason why we don't use the P-N-D-L-R layout anymore. Mainly it was dangerous and got people killed.
Also you do realise modern vehicles imitate the clicking noise the bimetal blinker switches made just because people expect it.
I've got a chevrolet that has a problem with multitasking it can't play the seatbelt warning at the same time as the turn signal. so I get this funny click click click click ding ding click click click click....Like no one's going to notice the turn signal magically wen
Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is re-inventing the wheel called progress? What is wrong with the old system? Like the article says, most folks have committed that shifter operation to muscle memory years ago. Why change the way the shift works 'because it is new' ?
Like working a helpdesk in IT, users are creatures of habit and when you start moving their cheese, this kind of stuff happens.
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Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Insightful)
And if you're never allowed to move their cheese, you could never effect "progress" could you. Sometimes you have to move their cheese, and sometimes you have to let "this kind of stuff" happen. Sometimes you even have to do it with very small incremental changes. Since you used the helpdesk reference, perhaps just like the small incremental changes in every iterations of Windows.
You can move the cheese, but don't replace it with a box of poison that looks just like the cheese.
If they want to change the UI for a shifter, they should make it completely different, not make something that looks, and superficially feels the same while in actuality it's quite different. What they did is akin to wanting to have a joy-stick instead of a steering wheel, but instead of just putting in an obvious joystick, they made it look just like a steering wheel.
Re:So what should we do? (Score:4, Insightful)
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If you look at the picture, you're supposed to "upshift" it into Park, so you'd hit up to go from D to N, then up again to go from N to R, th
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Agreed, and continuing that line of thought...
What they did is akin to wanting to have a joy-stick instead of a steering wheel, but instead of just putting in an obvious joystick, they made it look just like a steering wheel.
... and it only moves 1" to the right or left and snaps back to center when you release. You hold it left and your wheels will keep turning more and more left - harder you hold, faster it turns. Let go, and it stays in that turned spot.
That would be insane, and that's exactly what they did. Luckily, the gear change operation is generally done while stationary with the brake on, and only done at the start of driving once done, so accident counts are low and not s
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Also, the (possibly trained) driver isn't going to be the only person to ever sit behind the wheel. Valets, mechanics, and friends will all take turns driving over the years. Is Joe Driver going to remember that the pattern he's learned and committed to muscle memory over months of driving is unexpected, and to warn everyone he gives the keys to? This is bad UI, pure and simple.
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Thats right because everyone loved the new office ribbon menu system. And people loved the windows 8 metro screen even more than that! Because everyone wants to relearn how to drive a car every time they get a new one. I can just imagine: Great news everyone we've improved the steering now when you turn the steering wheel left your vehicle turns to the right on any 2017. ;-)
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Oh you mean like three on the tree, or brightlight switches on the floorboard? Or were you talking about pedal activated starters?
Just wondering how far you de-evolve.
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There has to be something to distinguish the Chrysler transmission from the pack, other than that they all die at 90,000 miles.
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I don't like the "time sensitive" touch switches either. My GF and I recently installed a different kind. If you tap it, it adjusts the light level according to where you tapped the switch pad - bottom fades to off, top to 100% on, elsewhere, proportionately. If you slide your finger up, the level increases proportionately to how far you slide your finger. Similar for sliding your finger down. Makes sense and is designed to resist accidental change by ignoring touches of more that 2 fingertips of area and s
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I wouldn't be so quick to criticize other people because one car manufacturer decided to change what has been a defacto standard for longer than you have probably been alive.
And how is adding steps progress? I really hope you were trying to be sarcastic, and if that is the case I apologies for my mildly snarky comment.
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But cars aren't all the same. For example my car doesn't have a hand brake lever, it has a pedal down in the foot well and a release lever under the dash. Now here is something for you to consider..... It's a manual. The first time you have to do a hill start in it, you will have a mild panic.
Panic that is until you learn that if you press the brake pedal hard the brakes stay locked on even with your foot off the brake and auto disengage as you start to move forward.
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I don't think anyone is holding back anything. The gear shifters in question, introduced in the Charger and 300 in 2012, have been replaced in those 2 cars for 2015 and were replaced in the Cherokee for 2016. They already got replaced and now they're being investigated because they are "not intuitive" and offer "poor tactile and visual feedback to the driver, increasing the potential for unintended gear selection." Fiat Chrysler was probably generally aware of that, which is why they replaced them, but t
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Or let natural selection take its course. If god had intended us to have simulated gearshift joysticks he'd never have created the Muncie 4 speed.
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2) Nobody RTFM when the rent a car
The industry had standard, and Chrysler deviated from the standard. The benefit to deviating from the standard is nonexistent. The drawback is a safety concern.
It reminds me of push button start. Once you get over the "Gee Whiz" factor, it's a safety concern. [consumerreports.org]
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My girlfriend has a Charger that has one of these shifters. I've been driving for 20 years, and the times I've driven her car, I have mistakenly put it in the wrong gear several times.
The problem isn't that the shifter operates differently, it's that it feels like a traditional shifter and operates completely differently. Change the mechanism so that it's a push button, dial, switches, whatever. Just not the way automatic transmissions have traditionally been if it's going to act differently.
Having said tha
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Should we hold back progress in to protect people from injury, should we penalize the RTFM challenged individuals, or something else?
There are two issues here. The first is new technology and the second is user training.
I have a 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The shifter acts just like a joystick, changing gears with a bump instead of going into a mechanical position. This forces the user to have to look at the dash, which shows the shift position, or at the top of the shift stick, shift position is lit. This would be a transition for people who have never used joysticks and who are used to muscle memory to determine what gear the shifter
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What progress? It's a gimmick.
If you want progress, go with a simple rotary switch that doesn't take up the whole center console or fool people into operating it incorrectly.. If you want all electronic but maintaining a familiar look and feel, go with a multi-position switch actuated by a gear lever with stiff dentents.
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Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, clearly the difference between tiles and icons on an OS menu is the exact same as the difference between control interfaces of an object that has the ability to injure or kill you.
Besides, your premise "you have two mechanisms that act differntly yet you are now Making them look and feel the same" is flawed because nothing in Windows 10 looks the same as Windows 7 but acts differently.
Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Insightful)
He was definitely implying that this new design was progressive. It was not, it's an utterly stupid gimmick, as others have said here. It looks too much like a traditional AT shift lever, but functions completely different, and worse, for no good reason. There's a good reason that most cars these days have standardized on a particular control layout: it works well, people are used to it, and standardization is valuable when people change vehicles. People do rent cars from time to time, or drive other peoples' cars, and making confusing differences just to be "cool" and "edgy" is just going to cause problems like this. This doesn't mean you should avoid change that's actually beneficial, but this shift lever is not an example of this, it's an example of a really stupid change that makes things worse.
Also, if you are going to make a change to commonly-accepted controls, this is a prime example of why you shouldn't try to make it resemble an existing method too much. Make it noticeably different, and people will pay attention, rather than assuming it works the same as what they're used to.
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I could be wrong as it has been a while since I drove one but I'm pretty sure that the ML series Mercedes use sequential presses on the gear shift, but instead of being on the floor it is a lever on the steering wheel. I have seen other autos with the gear selecter on the tree as well but having the positions.
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I think the reason for this change was more subversive than that. this gear shift is just an electrical toggle switch wired into the car's computer, so it's very likely it was designed as a cheap replacement for the more expensive traditional gear-shift lever. This would have almost certainly been a decision based on manufacturing cost.
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However the rental scenario is apt -- I'm unlikely to read through a car manual in the lot to check that there are no gotchas with the gas pedal / brake if they resemble what I'm already familiar with. A critical control that behaves significantly differently then all others of the same appearance is bad user design, also known as the principle of least surprise.
Sort of like replacing the function of the disk 'save' icon with a disk 'wipe' function -- yeah someone could read the entire manual but its sneak
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You win the smug asshole of the century award. Your prize aught to be a one-way trip off the nearest cliff, but unfortunately the Universe doesn't work that way.
Re:So what should we do? (Score:5, Interesting)
Corvette owner dying in the car because he didn't know about the mechanical release levers on the floor, the targa latches on the roof or the hatch release in the rear...
To be fair the most recent case I heard about involved an elderly man and his dog. The man was found with the owner's manual in his lap, trying to find out how to open the door without a functioning electrical system. The mention of the latch location is buried somewhere on page 67 or some shit. It should be in the first few pages.
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Corvette owner dying in the car because he didn't know about the mechanical release levers on the floor, the targa latches on the roof or the hatch release in the rear...
To be fair the most recent case I heard about involved an elderly man and his dog. The man was found with the owner's manual in his lap, trying to find out how to open the door without a functioning electrical system. The mention of the latch location is buried somewhere on page 67 or some shit. It should be in the first few pages.
That's even worse than my Boxster, where they've locked the battery under a trunk lid that requires battery power to open...
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Re: So what should we do? (Score:4, Insightful)
This is OPENING THE FUCKING DOOR.
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Can't find it. Is it one of the transition elements?
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Emergency Brake? (Score:3)
Isn't that why they have an emergency brake?
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Re: Emergency Brake? (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe.
Rented a Chrysler 200S recently. The gear selector was a purely electronic rotary plastic knob with almost zero resistance or mechanical feedback, the parking brake was an electronic button beside it, there was no emergency brake to speak of, and there was no ignition key or mechanical switch, but just a button.
All the R'ing the FM in the world can't fix a stupid design.
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If it's an actual "emergency brake" it's not connected to the hydraulics at all...
Most of these things are safer not being under human control anyway, like being able to put the car in park at 80MPH on the freeway, or engaging the emergency brake in the same situation. If you're not the panicky idiot that everyone else in the world is, perhaps you can ease on a handbrake, but most people are going to yank it on, lock the rear wheels and spin out.
Sure, if the systems all fail you're left (maybe) with engine
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you can't even yank hard on a lever or push as hard as you can down on a pedal to engage a mechanical emergency brake?
Nope. Purely electronic. Push the button and you can hear a "whiiiiiiiiir, scronk" to indicate the parking brake has engaged. (Subaru Legacy).
Is there even a direct mechanical connection between the regular brake pedal and the brake master cylinder?
Yup, there is a link there. But there is an electronic device (ABS actuator) sitting between the master and slave cylinders.
I have no idea if there is a physical link between gear shift and the transmission
Aint progress grand?
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Also because standard transmissions unfortunately are going the way of the dodo. The CVs and new 5,6,7 and 8 speed auto transmissions get better MPG than the standards. Wild ass guess that 75% of the drivers in the US cannot drive a standard transmission and never use the emergency brake. And I bet that number is in the 95% range in the SUV owner (Soccer moms) group.
Re:Emergency Brake? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I hear ya... Who wants to steal a crappy car with a manual transmission anyway?
I buy the manual because it's cheaper and lasts longer and I'm only interested in getting to point a to point b for as long as possible as cheaply as possible. Nobody want's my car because it's a bare bones pile of loosely related scrap metal and used car parts for most of the time I drive it.
Re:Emergency Brake? (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair, sometimes driving a familiar automatic gets downright, er, automatic... and you actually forget you're driving some number of tons of metal down the boulevard.
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Yep, I used to be a manual transmission lover too. (Note, they're not "standard transmissions"; you must be over 65 years old if you're using that terminology still.) I drove a stick for 20 years. But my new car that I just got is an auto, because they finally fixed all the problems with autos: the fuel economy is noticeably better than manuals, they shift nicely now (both in smoothness and in responsiveness), and they're reliable now. I still *always* set my parking brake; I never broke that habit, and
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Wild ass guess that 75% of the drivers in the US cannot drive a standard transmission and never use the emergency brake.
Only if your polling driver under 30-35 because standard transmissions where fairly popular not that many years ago, you are probably right about the parking break unless they have standard transmission they probably will never use it.
If your manual says it's an emergency brake then I disagree with the manufacture too, at no point should a cable lock system on the brakes be considered an emergency brake it's a parking break.
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A cable that locks the brakes is not an emergency brake as a matter of fact if you are moving and engage it you are likely to cause an emergency. Why does everyone insist on calling the parking brake an emergency brake.
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Except they want to do as many stupid things as possible:
- Not familiarise themselves with the vehicle (admittedly no one does this)
- Not use the parking brake
- Not turn the car off
- Not take the key when exiting the vehicle
If you've done six stupid things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe?
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Key Lock (Score:2)
My Kia won't let me take the key out of the ignition unless the shifter is in park. You're saying my econobox has more safety features than a luxury Jeep?
Re: Key Lock (Score:3)
Have you tried removing the key in neutral?
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My Kia won't let me take the key out of the ignition unless the shifter is in park. You're saying my econobox has more safety features than a luxury Jeep?
Modern cars beyond old-design entry level models tend to not have ignition keys you have to physically insert. Keeping it in the pocket is good enough.
However, they normally won't let you turn the engine off unless you're in park, the exception being tow/car wash mode, where you have to jump through an extra hoop to say that yes, you want to leave it in neutral.
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yes.
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My Kia won't let me take the key out of the ignition unless the shifter is in park. You're saying my econobox has more safety features than a luxury Jeep?
I believe that all of the Jeeps now have keyless ignition... No key to remove...
Plus, the article clearly says that many of these cases are when people are leaving the car running. In these situations, they wouldn't be taking out the key, even in the Kia. For example, when getting out of the car to throw something in the back, to pick someone up, etc.
Principle of least astonishment (Score:2)
Time to shift gears (Score:2)
I guess it's time to shift gears and try something else.
Fire the guy who designed this... (Score:2)
returning to its center position once you've selected your gear.
Who thought THAT was a good idea? So they thought it would be a good idea to have a shifter be in the same position REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS IN NEUTRAL, DRIVE, REVERSE, OR PARK? Man, I'm amazed that got beyond the first round of design review.
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The guy that invented the sequential motorcycle transmission? Seriously, this isn't new at all.
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Exactly. With rare exceptions (such as kid's entry-level bikes), motorbikes have a manual clutch and a foot-operated sequential shift gearbox. It's one of the first things you learn, i.e. how to coordinate throttle, clutch, and gears to be in the right gear at the right time.
Except that riding a motorcycle generally takes more concentration, more engagement with the vehicle itself, so those skills will be lacking unless you've actually spent some time on a motorbike, and the vast majority of cagers have not
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Sequential gearboxes are a good thing in some situations - they're faster to sh
Ah, here we go. (Score:3)
"In Fiat Chrysler vehicles equipped with this shifter design, opening the driver's door when the car is not in Park triggers a chime and an instrument cluster alert, and the engine cannot be turned off with the car in gear"
I'm guessing "chime and alert" is a roundabout way of saying the car screams at you "hey moron, you left the car in gear!" the dash lights up like a Christmas tree.
Keyless ignition (Score:4, Insightful)
I own one of these. . . (Score:3)
I own one of these vehicles, and I can attest that the shifter design is awkward and confusing. The shifter paddles are another gripe, since they're effectively useless on this type of vehicle, but it's easy to hit one without realizing it when making a turn, then you have to figure out what's wrong, and then figure out how to get it out of manual mode. And the design fails are not limited to the shifter. All the controls in this vehicle are a user interface disaster. After owning mine for more than a year, I still find it awkward, and the touch screen interface for the infotainment and climate control still befuddles me at some times and infuriates me at others. And just to add an extra special touch of irritation, the stereo automatically comes on playing satellite radio whenever the vehicle is started, and there's no way to configure it not to. I've just learned to hit the mute button every time I start the car.
The utter failure of the Jeep's user interface was really pounded home to me when I was loaned a Tesla Model S for a week and a half. The huge touch panel looked alien at first glance, but I mastered most of its functions just by poking at it for about five minutes, and everything was golden after that.
This is NOT new (Score:3)
For any of you 'gearheads' this is just a reincarnation of the old school ratchet shifter. I had a 'cuda when I was in HS, a loooong time ago, that had this type and a pistol grip shifting knob. It was cool then, not really sure what I think about it now...
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It's difficult to find vehicles that even have a manual anymore. I love driving them! 'Merica... fuck yeah!
What's worse, those goddamn 'murricans went over to Germany and took over ZF Friedrichshafen AG where they make t. They also made them install these shifters on some Audi cars.
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en... [zf.com] Gehrdehrm 'murricans!
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Great list! Now try to expand it to include a large sedan, full-size pickup truck or minivan.
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Christ america, what is wrong with manual?
1995 is calling, and wants you back.
These days, manuals get crappy fuel economy; autos beat them every time. Autos also beat them in performance: they can shift much faster than you can.
Face it, technology has improved and rendered manual transmissions obsolete.
And they're getting better still: pretty soon, we can expect CVTs to mostly replace traditional automatics. That is, until electric cars render transmissions completely obsolete.
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If you're hitting second gear in 'stop and go' you are doing it wrong.
My guess, you've never driven a stick in your life, but know you don't like them.
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Correct for city driving. But this is a more recent development and it's not that much more. If you can keep the engine in the most economic sweet spot longer, you will get better gas mileage. It's hard to do that as effectively with a finite number of gears, even with flawless picking of the shift points by the driver..
However, if you are doing highway driving, the manual wins, every time.
Re:User error (Score:5, Informative)
Correct for city driving. But this is a more recent development and it's not that much more. If you can keep the engine in the most economic sweet spot longer, you will get better gas mileage. It's hard to do that as effectively with a finite number of gears, even with flawless picking of the shift points by the driver..
However, if you are doing highway driving, the manual wins, every time.
Not true...
This used to be true because Automatics had torque converters with a slip system and Manuals didn't. Manuals lock into a gear and have no slip. Automatics have a slip mechanism that allows the car to stop at a light and not stall. This slip system also meant that there was some slip at higher speeds resulting in poorer fuel mileage in older Automatics.
However, modern Automatics have the ability to automatically "lock" the torque converter into a gear at higher speeds. This negates the advantage that manuals had at highway speeds.
http://www.cartalk.com/blogs/t... [cartalk.com]
In fact, a lot of the old arguments for selecting a Manual have dropped by the wayside as Automatic transmission technology has improved. There are really only two remaining arguments for get a manual, the first is that cars with manual transmissions cost a bit less and the second is that, for many, they are fun to drive... That last one will never go away...
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Locking Torque converters have been the rule for a LONG time, like since the 70's... With all due respect for the guys from Car Talk, this *helps* with the efficiency, but there still is some energy losses due to the necessity of running the automatic part of the transmission. You have to keep the shift clutches engaged, that takes hydraulic pressure which implies a pump is running someplace. You also must circulate the transmission fluid to keep the various things lubricated and cool, which takes some po
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You're asking way too much. Remember, this is Chrysler/Jeep we're talking about here.... This company survives purely because of 1) fleet sales to rental car companies and idiotic local governments, and 2) cultist morons who buy Jeeps because "it's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand". Even the Apple cultists are a lot smarter than the Jeep cultists.
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Man, I'd hate to try and push that car off the road by myself...