Samsung: Don't install Windows 10 (theregister.co.uk) 186
An anonymous reader shares an article on The Register: Samsung is advising customers against succumbing to Microsoft's nagging and installing Windows 10. The consumer electronics giant's support staff have admitted drivers for its PCs still don't work with Microsoft's newest operating system and told customers they should simply not make the upgrade. That's nearly a year after Microsoft released Windows 10 and with a month to go until its successor -- Windows 10 Anniversary Update -- lands. Samsung's customers have complained repeatedly during the last 12 months of being either unable to install Microsoft's operating system on their machines or Windows 10 not working properly with components if they do succeed. However, with the one-year anniversary fast approaching it seems neither of these tech giants have succeeded in solving these persistent problems.
Problem here seems to be Samsung? (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe if they weren't so far up Cook's ass, they'd take the time to write some new drivers. Or even write older drivers to spec, since they should work with Windows 10 too.
Re:Problem here seems to be Samsung? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe if they weren't so far up Cook's ass, they'd take the time to write some new drivers. Or even write older drivers to spec, since they should work with Windows 10 too.
In what way is Samsung up Cook's ass? I assume we're talking about Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, competitor to Samsung on many things including phones, tablets, laptops and PCs, and supplier on other things (SSDs, RAM).
Samsung isn't going to be writing drivers for Broadcom chips, only Broadcom can do that. No doubt Broadcom would like to be paid for it, since they have recently exited the 802.11 business (http://www.macrumors.com/2016/03/18/apple-supplier-broadcom-wi-fi-chip-business/), they probably have let most of that staff go or re-org'd them on to something else. I'm sure that BCM is just one component lacking driver support, but outside of SSDs which don't usually need drivers, it is unclear that Samsung is on the hook to write any drivers at all, but would have to pay someone else to do it, and they don't want to because you've already spent that money and what's in it for them exactly?
This is why linux people get so bent out of shape over proprietary drivers being a blight. Companies protect those secrets until one day they disappear into the mist, leaving us all holding the bag.
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it is unclear that Samsung is on the hook to write any drivers at all
How do you figure? The users aren't the ones who picked the chipset and put it into their hardware. Car companies have the same challenges and they don't point fingers at the supplier, instead they resolve the problem internally or work with another supplier to achieve the required results.
I don't know that Samsung falls in this category but I've often seen H/W manufacturers put products on the market, undercutting the competition and then not accounting for the need to keep some $$ for ongoing support (OC
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I cite Ford Sync as a counter-example of Car companies handling this internally. 2012 Fusions still have problems and Ford will not stand behind fixing the issues -- even while they were in warranty. Standard answer, Disconnect your battery, leave off for 15 minutes, reconnect.
Still, it's Samsung's fault just like Ford's 3rd party "entertainment system" is their fault. The company that packaged it is who should fix the issue.
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Broadcom is known for being very secretive about its chips and drivers. Half of a driver development I did for one chip was spent getting the legal agreements in place and signed.
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That is an interesting argument you're putting forward here. You are saying that a hardware manufacturer should be supporting their hardware past their end of life for a piece of software that didn't exist when they built the hardware and for which it was never designed for. On top of this the hardware continues to work fine with the software for which it was originally written.
And we aren't talking about an iterative update here. I could understand an argument around Win7 to Win7 SP1. But Windows 10 is
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And who provides the support for that for large scale deployments?
It doesn't matter if you/ me/ everybody on
Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, I think it's gotta be Samsung. Still no drivers after a year? Seriously?
Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Insightful)
Still no Windows 10 drivers after a year from release, for a cheap model of laptop they might have pushed out 5-7 years ago, which was only certified for Windows 7? Yeah, not really surprising.
There are a LOT of manufacturer's out there committing exactly that "crime". It's got nothing to do with laziness - hell, in that time the manufacturer could have gone bankrupt - but it's got everything to do with the manufacturer just saying "that's an old chipset, we don't have 10 drivers. But for $50k...." and Samsung telling them to stick it up their bottom.
Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, let's just continue junking perfectly working hardware after a couple of years, i'm sure nature will be able to handle it (and those poor chinese workers that'll end up having to "recycle" it too)
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Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Insightful)
Still no Windows 10 drivers after a year from release, for a cheap model of laptop they might have pushed out 5-7 years ago, which was only certified for Windows 7? Yeah, not really surprising.
Really? Not surprising? How hard is it to make a driver work with a certain driver model? No serious question. I'm on Windows 10 using some hardware from the XP era. Now I understand maybe the argument for Samsung attempting to force upgrades, but in terms of effort I think this is a poor excuse.
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How hard is it to make a driver work with a certain driver model? No serious question.
Well, it depends on the hardware. There have been some major changes to some parts of the HAL between Windows 7 and 10, and massive ones between XP and 10. Even if it's one of the ones that hasn't changed much, you need to test it quite extensively. You also need to get it certified by Microsoft if it uses custom binaries.
So even if it isn't "hard" in engineering terms, it is always going to be expensive and time consuming. For old hardware that long ago reached the end of support contracts and hasn't been
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Well, it depends on the hardware.
Of course it does. Now does anyone have any hardware that was a massive change and deviation from previous models without providing backwards compatibility to the new model and forwards compatibility to the old one? By that I mean something like a new GPU model will share significant driver code base with an old one and you're not going to release a Windows 10 only GPU when Windows 10 comes out and not back port previous ones, or provide drivers for ANY of your existing products.
No one is starting from zero
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Well, not quite the extreme you listed, but there are a lot of GPUs that got dropped by ATI/AMD between each version of Windows since XP (Example - I had a "Vista-ready" Toshiba with an XPress 200m that that had no Windows 7 driver), and Intel (Intel i8xx GPUs have acceleration in XP only) and Nvidia have quite a few too (Nvidia moved between Windows 8 and 10 quite a few things to legacy that the mainstream driver (including the one that Windows update will force install if you were using the driver nvidia
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The distinct demarcation between the 915G and 945G is that the 945G is Aero-capable and the 915G is not. I don't know what kind of driver support you expect in Windows 10 for a graphics chipset that can't even run Windows 7 properly, yet both were shipping the day Windows 7 came out.
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Both AMD and nvidia have gone through two major architectures in the past 5 years. I think Intel's graphics tech has changed a lot too.
And Windows 10 has made a lot of charges to the graphics architecture where performance 3D is concerned.
Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Informative)
I have a 6yo laptop (Dell, not Samsung) that is on the "Windows 10 not supported" list for Dell and Win10 works just fine. Bash them all you want, but MS does a decent job of supporting really old hardware......in spite of the manufacturers not updating their drivers.
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Create an API for a driver and then don't change it, and old hardware will work with new OS versions. It's not hard. In some cases Microsoft sticks with their API, but in many cases Microsoft loves changing and breaking things.
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I have a 6yo laptop (Dell, not Samsung) that is on the "Windows 10 not supported" list for Dell and Win10 works just fine. Bash them all you want, but MS does a decent job of supporting really old hardware......in spite of the manufacturers not updating their drivers.
Is that a testament to MS or Dell's drivers? Seems when the drivers work, people congrat MS and when they don't, the blame the manufacturer.
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Considering I'm not using the Dell drivers but the Microsoft ones, I'll give praise to Microsoft. The Dell drivers were barely 7 ready.....a lot of them were really Vista drivers.
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Despite. The word you are looking for is despite. You wouldn't spitefully do someone's job for them. Even Samuel Clemens had to write characters has happy idiots in order for them to paint someone else's fence.
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Had the exact opposite happen with my Dell (Precision M4500) - Dell only supports Windows 7 on there, and Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, force delivers/installs a newer NVidia driver then supports the Quadro 880m that's in the laptop. That wasn't fun to try and fix either, thanks to the "YOU MUST INSTALL UPDATES" policy that Microsoft has enforced.
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Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:4, Funny)
I think your post was a lie, not because I think you're wrong about Samsung hardware support, but because Windows 10 is not an upgrade and no reasonable person install it "happily!"
Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Informative)
"Happily" because the start-up time (especially on old machines) is worth the upgrade. I typically use these machines to hop on line, stream a movie or some TV episodes down to a TV, and that's about it. The automatic updates don't bother me - I want those because I sometimes access some pretty shady sites to get my material - and I know how to turn the telemetry information off. And what I really want - the ability to run this hardware until it dies, rather than Microsoft eventually pulls patch support for Windows 7/8 - is now a couple of years closer to reality.
The only thing I don't understand is no Vista->Windows 10 upgrades. Some of my machines really are that old, and I'm considering burning some of the Windows 7 licenses I never used just to get those rebuilt and into the modern era. (Meanwhile, I'm teaching my kids about Raspberry Pi-based Linux systems and getting them to do as much work as they can on Google docs, so hopefully Windows 10 will be the last Windows generation my home network has to support.)
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so hopefully Windows 10 will be the last Windows generation my home network has to support.)
pretty sure Win10 will be the last windows you will have to support, actually.
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"Happily" because the start-up time (especially on old machines) is worth the upgrade.
Even with quick boot turned on, and just one SSD and one DVD, my POST takes longer than my Windows 7 Pro boot. I call shenanigans.
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>> and I know how to turn the telemetry information off.
How, precisely, did you turn the telemetry information off?
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Drivers are the biggest thing. Many Vista era GPUs are not supported in Windows 10. That then leads to extra CPU load since Windows 10 will software render the entire desktop rather then having a non-accelerated fallback mode.
Second issue I noticed is thanks to Windows Defender being "always on" it creates a very massive CPU load on older CPUs (Core 2 and older), and the OS plus updates are so slow that the user experience is massively slow. Plus there is the risk of finding a system that does not proper
Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason is simple. You don't make money writing drivers for hardware you've already sold.
Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason is simple. You don't make money writing drivers for hardware you've already sold.
False. You don't directly make money writing drivers for hardware you've already sold.
You do make money by encouraging buyers to come back due to your great support (including continuing to provide updated drivers) for products already sold.
And yes, this is one reason why I haven't bought another tablet yet. I'm not seeing the kind of support I'd like to, even among higher end tablets.
And yes, I especially would expect it with more traditional computers (laptops, desktops).
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People have very little brand loyalty these days.
People have very little brand loyalty because companies do not give them a reason to remain loyal because of things like what we are discussing.
People don't expect them to last more than a few years, but they do expect them to be quite cheap.
Corporations expect them to only last a few years; people in general I think expect them to last longer than a few years, and typically replace stuff because some technician can't do their job and fix the problem (typically at the behest of a support manager that wants to help drive the sales portion of the business, e.g BestBuy), so they recommend replacement inste
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That's the exact reason I stopped buying Android devices (I bought a Droid X over an iPhone years ago, and came to regret it (kept it about 2.5 years, replaced it with an iPhone 5 when they first came out, and my ASUS tablet that I bought two years ago got replaced with a Windows Tablet back in November). My ex-girlfriend bounced around all sorts of Android devices over the last about six or seven years that all failed to improve my opinion of the manufacturers to make me want to even try another android d
Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Informative)
This is a case of a bad headline and summary. The article refers only to one customer's laptop, but it makes it look like it applied to all laptops.
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Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:5, Informative)
It's not just Samsung. If anything, I'd give Samsung at least some credit (compared to a couple of their competitors) for being willing to talk about this.
My parents have a ~5 year old Dell laptop. Back in November, they tried to move to Windows 10, but the machine locked into a BSOD-on-boot loop in the latter stages of the install. After a lot of digging into the problem, it turned out that the onboard graphics adapter for that particular model wasn't supported in Win10, so the OS crashed at the point it tried to initialise it. I had to travel 2 hours to get their PC to boot from the recovery partition and back into Windows 7.
On Monday, the parents must have missed a step in the "dodge the near-forced update" dance, because the laptop decided it was going to move itself to Windows 10 again while they were out - with exactly the same result. Cue another two hours on the phone talking my Dad through yet another restore from the recovery partition. I'm normally happy to blame the parents for their self-inflicted PC woes, but in this case, MS have made dodging the update so hard for the average user that I can't really bring myself to do so.
Their machine is not unique; it was from a fairly common line of low-end Dell laptops that was popular 5 years ago. There are plenty of similar tales in the Dell support forums.
For what it's worth, I'm running Win10 on my own home desktop and while I had to do a bit of router-fettling to block the worst of the telemetry, I actually like the OS for day to day use. But then, I have a PC that can run it.
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Indeed, for they will not be on speaking terms with me after I render their PC essentially useless for their purposes by sticking on an OS that is not supported by the various bits of propriety work-related software they need (they're still 3-4 years from retirement).
Re:Which one to laugh at more? (Score:4, Funny)
Indeed, for they will not be on speaking terms with me after I render their PC essentially useless
In other words, "problem solved."
Jo Carson's Law of Competence: "Be careful what you get good at doin' 'cause you'll be doin' it for the rest of your life"
idontgno's corollary: "If you don't want to do something for the rest of your life, be bad at it."
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Exactly right.
This is why, when family members/relatives ask for computer help, I offer to install Linux for them. When they take me up on it, I install Linux Mint KDE, and rarely do I have to provide any support. It "just works". As long as they just do web browsing, document writing, video playing, and other basic stuff like that and don't have some stupid proprietary software they insist on running, it works great for them. With Windows, you'll have to spend huge amounts of time being their IT support
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Indeed, for they will not be on speaking terms with me after I render their PC essentially useless for their purposes by sticking on an OS that is not supported by the various bits of propriety work-related software they need (they're still 3-4 years from retirement).
Odds are good that it would run under WINE, though you'd have to test it to find out. VirtualBox is also a reasonable solution in many cases, especially if the bits in question aren't used heavily.
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A better question is why Never10 or GWX Control panel weren't installed on it.
Wouldn't have mattered since Microsoft has been actively circumventing any tools like those that disable the Win10 update prompts.
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A better question is why Never10 or GWX Control panel weren't installed on it.
Wouldn't have mattered since Microsoft has been actively circumventing any tools like those that disable the Win10 update prompts.
Is that a fact? GWX Control Panel has been working for me. No nags, no installs, no update files taking up space on my drive.
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A better question is why Never10 or GWX Control panel weren't installed on it.
Wouldn't have mattered since Microsoft has been actively circumventing any tools like those that disable the Win10 update prompts.
Is that a fact? GWX Control Panel has been working for me. No nags, no installs, no update files taking up space on my drive.
Then you're one of the very few. There have been many news stories over the last year about GWX Control Panel and other similar tools breaking because of Microsoft doing stuff to re-enable settings for the Win10 updates that were disabled by those tools.
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Mod up. This is exactly right.
Why should I have to spend all my time learning about all kinds of unsupported 3rd-party software and unauthorized hacks and tweaks to make a Windows machine work so that someone else can use some shitty proprietary software they insist on using? If they insist on that crap, and using Windows, they can hire Geek Squad when they have a problem. It's not my job to become an expert on Windows, just like it's not my job to be an expert on Oracle database administration; just bec
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Well, that's half the problem, people managing devices that they aren't qualified to use.
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What are you talking about? I'm super excited to try out Gingerbread now that new updates are rolling out for my Samsung Android phone.
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What are you talking about? I'm super excited to try out Gingerbread now that new updates are rolling out for my Samsung Android phone.
He's talking about the perfectly mediocre Samsung laptops, not their industry leading mobile phones.
Re: Which one to laugh at more? (Score:2)
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I actually have had 4 Samsung phones over the years: 3 Galaxy S4 and a Galaxy Avant, all with T-mobile. All of them were woefully behind what was considered "current" Android from nearly the begining and never really received much in the form up updates. Part of that is Samsung, part of that is T-Mobile. From here on out, I'm sticking with the Nexus line of devices. Two Nexus 7 (one 2012 and one 2013) and two Nexus 5x and everything just works.
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I have 3 Galaxy S4 phones as well, but on Sprint (with Ting), and they were all updated to Android 5.0.1 by the carrier. Not the most-current Android version, but not "woefully behind" either, and newer than the version they originally came with.
I do plan to try out Cyanogenmod on one of them sometime and see how it goes.
The Nexus devices suck as far as I can tell: no removable battery or SD card slot, and probably no Otterbox Defender case either. Samsung's hardware is excellent (well, it was up to the S
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I got burned by that. Tab 10.1. Overpriced abandonware. Deleted Samsung from my list of vendors.
Samsung is too busy (Score:3, Interesting)
Users Just Expect Computers to "Work" (Score:3)
Between MS Win10 nagging and failure of both hardware & software products to be secure (recent Windows laptops security issues), customers are being let down.
I'm beginning to think Windows & the hardware is now on a downhill slide as it is just too complex to maintain.
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The problem is, software has bugs and users who expect computers to "work" aren't going to be diligent in getting patches since they don't care as long as it 'works". I fully support completely automatic Windows Update by default because of this.
Though Microsoft has been... overly enthusiastic with pushing Windows 10, it's easy to see that, given they are incrementally improving security in each new OS version, they want as many people to migrate to 10 as soon as possible to gain the security benefits, and
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"given they are incrementally improving security in each new OS version"
Which is why we just had a 0-day for every version of windows from 2000 on up?
"Can't blame MS for this though"
Yes, we can. It's their OS, they should've told manufacturers to either provide the drivers or don't gain certification. That simple.
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Because that never happened with Linux or SSH... All software has bugs, even long standing ones. How many and how bad are the relevant questions.
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Except the device in question isn't certified for W10 - it's people doing it themselves.
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Which is why we just had a 0-day for every version of windows from 2000 on up?
That's a pointless argument. Every OS has zero-days, including Linux and BSD. Some exploits span multiple kernels/releases.
Yes, we can. It's their OS, they should've told manufacturers to either provide the drivers or don't gain certification
That makes no sense. They were never trying to certify the old machines for Windows 10.
Is Microsoft really going to say: "Provide drivers for 5-10 year old hardware, or else we won't certify your new machines."
No, because the OEMs would revolt. If it comes down to it, they do not need Microsoft certification to ship a product.
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It actually just looks like Microsoft still didn't see that the world is ready to move on from them at the 1st real opportunity and doesn't give a damn.
For instance Visual Studio 2015. You have to update the packages one by one.... manually... and download each runnable install file from the internet. It's absolutely ridiculous, how can anyone use that stuff? They didn't implement that basic feature that's standard in any IDE in Mac or Linux, updating. It's just crazy.
Plenty of Windows 10 comparibility (Score:5, Informative)
The headline implies that Samsung is telling all their customers not to upgrade any equipment to Windows 10. But reading the article, it looks like one customer got one email saying this. If you follow the link in the article, and try a few models out, there are indeed models that support Windows 10.
In general though:
1. What Windows 8 drivers do not work on Windows 10?
Windows 8 was good about supporting Windows 7 drivers and even XP drivers. Video drivers art the ones that are usually an issue.
2. Does the Windows 10 upgrade check driver availability before upgrading?
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Re:Plenty of Windows 10 comparibility (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Plenty of Windows 10 compatibility (Score:3)
Whoops, thanks for the correction. I was thinking "The one before Windows 7" so naturally, my mind immediately skipped Vista.
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Yes, they do. I've got a two old Dell Laptops that I saved from the dumpster after someone left their pallet after a university auction, It is a machien from 2005, now running Windows 8.1 (32 bit), even though it didn't want to. I installed it anyway, and used the OmegaDriver to get that ATi video chipset working. It *says* it is a Radeon X1600 mobility on the sticker, but from what I understand, it is really Radeon 9000/9200 era silicon. Both AMD and Nvidia are bad about overstating (read lying) about
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That, and Dell is at least honest about saying what they will and will not support. Oh, and they don't have their machines refuse to boot if you change the WIFI card like HP does....
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FUD (Score:3)
Seems like a FUD article. I was taken aback, since I'm about to upgrade my older tower PC this weekend (finally cleared enough space on the main SSD), but then I realized my newer PC with a Samsung SSD, is working just fine with Windows 10. I kind of doubt that the Samsung HDD on my old PC will have troubles.
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Also article is dealing with a 6+ year old laptop.
That's what you get with non-standard hardware (Score:2, Informative)
Samsung has a long history of making their computer hardware slightly non-standard.
Just enough that generic drivers don't recognize the Samsung versions as compatible.
(They change PCI Vendor ID's and Hardware ID to custom values.
In some cases they wire the chips in a non-standard way. E.g. a Wifi chip with 4 antenna's only has antenna 3 and 4 attached in stead of 1 and 2 as the manufacturer recommends. Bluetooth or Wifi enable switch is wired in reverse so on Samsung ON means OFF.)
And their own Windows 7/8
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That's simply not true. I have seen OS X 10.11 installed on the 2009 MacBook.
Samsung (Score:3)
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http://www.cnet.com/news/touchscreen-refrigerators-and-talking-everything-at-ces-2016/
What? (Score:2)
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Never Upgraded Windows on a Laptop (Score:5, Informative)
Seems like Samsung is the problem (Score:3, Insightful)
The consumer electronics giant's support staff have admitted drivers for its PCs still don't work with Microsoft's newest operating system and told customers they should simply not make the upgrade.
So they've had nearly a year since Windows 10 was released and quite some time before that with betas to figure out how to make their drivers work. Sounds like the problem isn't with Windows 10 but with Samsung being unable to develop quality drivers. Plenty of other companies seem to have figured it out. Basically this tells me to avoid Samsung products. Windows 10 isn't without problems but by and large they don't seem to be technical ones but rather Microsoft being overly aggressive about pushing updates down our throats.
They're both right (Score:4, Insightful)
We probably should avoid Windows 10. We should also avoid Samsung products.
They've been busy... (Score:2)
Samsung has probably been too busy updating their Smart TV software to deliver (unwanted) ads. [slashdot.org]
Come on Anniversary edition! (Score:2)
Translation (Score:2)
"Samsung: Don't install Windows 10"
Translation:
"Samsung: We Can't Code Drivers Worth A Shit"
Why This Doesn't Surprise Me (Score:3, Informative)
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"It's an even release, so it sucks. Wait until Windows 11 is out."
So when is Windows 11 coming out.
Or a better question = when is the next version of Windows that doesn't suck coming out
(wait until thten and buy a new PC with it pre-installed)
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when is the next version of Windows that doesn't suck coming out
I'd say shortly after Duke Nukem Forever came out, but they did actually manage to release that...albeit over 10 years late.
That said, when did Microsoft ever release a version of Windows that did *not* suck? So, probably when Hell freezes over and pigs grow wings and fly.
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It's an even release, so it sucks. Wait until Windows 11 is out.
Um, I thought that was never supposed to happen, and that the plan was all future versions of Windows would be "Windows 10", much like all versions of MacOS have been "MacOS X" for a very long time. Isn't Windows 10 just supposed to be a rolling release?
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Yeah. Your prize is a free copy of Windows 10, which you can't even install. Enjoy.
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No, you're forced to install it.
You just can't use it.
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I win motherfuckers
You do, life is pretty much downhill from here for you.
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Why is it Samsung's problem? Did they promise you that you would be able to upgrade your system when you bought it?
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Bullshit. Linux drops stuff at developers whims, and there is nothing to encourage them not to. Case in point - GPU acceleration when they dropped DRI1 (sometime around 2011 IIRC) I had many laptops that suddenly ran Windows 7 much better then they ran Linux, because the X.Org idiots decided that nope, those features aren't important. They can all just use LLVMPipe instead.