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Software Programming United States

90% Of Software Developers Work Outside Silicon Valley (qz.com) 180

Posted by msmash from the growing-pattern dept.
An anonymous reader shares a Quartz report: So much code to write, so few developers. The chronic talent shortage afflicting Silicon Valley is now all over the US -- and the developers are too. A study by the software trade group The App Association analyzed government and private sector data to map where software developers live, and it identified 223,054 open positions around the country. It found that most developers live far away from the technology epicenter of Silicon Valley, and job openings follow a similar pattern. The upshot: Silicon Valley-style talent wars are moving away from tech hubs to smaller metro and even rural areas. Everywhere from rural Vermont to the middle of Montana is in need of programmers. "You can find places where you didn't expect software developers to be, but they are part of the local economy," said association spokesman Jonathan Godfrey in an interview. "It's pretty much everywhere."
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90% Of Software Developers Work Outside Silicon Valley More

90% Of Software Developers Work Outside Silicon Valley

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  • It's Simple Economics (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:33PM (#52504805)

    Why would I pay $3000/month to share a ROOM with four other people making $120K when I can BUY a four bedroom house on one acre of land in the country for $825/month on half that salary anywhere between the Rocky and Appalachian mountain ranges? I'd take the boring enterprise 9-5 job at a no-name B2B service company any day of the week and enjoy my big house and yard with my kids any day of the week.

    • It's simple geography. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mcmonkey ( 96054 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:59PM (#52505015) Homepage

      Most of _everything_ is outside Silicon Valley.

      Is this news to anyone?

    • Why would I pay $3000/month to share a ROOM with four other people

      You don't. Even in the heart of SV, you can rent your own room for about $1000/month. You can find $700-$800 rooms in south San Jose, or Fremont. Or $500 in Gilroy, but the commute will eat up the savings. Go to Craigslist, click on "sby", then "rooms for rent".

      • You don't. Even in the heart of SV, you can rent your own room for about $1000/month.

        Or you can buy a decent house here for that. So am I surprised most software developers don't live in Silicon Valley? No. For the same reason I never moved there.

        Aside from that, as mcmonkey quite correctly pointed out, most of everything is outside of Silicon Valley. Most of anything is outside of any given city.

        • You don't. Even in the heart of SV, you can rent your own room for about $1000/month.

          Or you can buy a decent house here for that. So am I surprised most software developers don't live in Silicon Valley? No. For the same reason I never moved there.

          Aside from that, as mcmonkey quite correctly pointed out, most of everything is outside of Silicon Valley. Most of anything is outside of any given city.

          Are you sure about that? Because I pretty much gave up trying to move to the valley because I could not find anything decent for that price. Yeah, I could find that in very shitty areas, but what would be the point of that? I did the math, and pretty much I would have to earn 3X of what I make now to afford the type of housing, schools and amenities that I currently provide my family (and I live in South Florida, not the cheapest of regions.)

      • I have a 1500 sq. ft. house that is $800/mo including escrow and PMI. My commute is 5 minutes.

        My salary would probably have to quintuple before I'd even consider going to SV for work.

        • I have a 1500 sq. ft. house that is $800/mo

          You could rent that for $3000/mo in SV. So the difference is $2200/mo or about $28k/yr.

          My salary would probably have to quintuple before I'd even consider going to SV for work.

          If your salary would have to quintuple to get an extra $28k/yr, then you aren't even making minimum wage.

          Other than housing, costs are not particularly high in SV. Gasoline is slightly more than average. Groceries are the same. Utilities tend to be lower since the weather is nearly perfect, so you don't need to heat or cool much. The schools are among the best in America.

      • The commute from there is much better than the commute from San Francisco though, and fewer hipsters as neighbors.

    • Why would I pay $3000/month to share a ROOM with four other people [...]

      I pay $1477 for a 475-sqf studio apartment in San Jose, where I lived there by myself for 10+ years and make only $50K per year in IT support.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by lgw ( 121541 )

        That's actually cheaper than the the tech area of downtown Seattle, where a small studio apartment runs ~$1800 if you're moving in now. Of course, there are also 50-somehting new highrises going up in Seattle, mostly residential, so maybe that will help a bit.

        San Jose is high, but it's not crazy. I found the pay more than offset the cost - just stay away from SF. Seattle is bordering on crazy, but at least they're building out.

        • Seattle has inexpensive commutable areas much closer than SV. I have a friend who commutes from Tracy to Redwood City. That's fucking ridiculous(2-3 hours if you don't pay tolls, 1.5-2.5 hours if you do). Renton to Seattle(or Redmond or Bellevue or whatever) is 30 minutes.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Sowelu ( 713889 )

            When I worked for AMZN, parking was like $200/mo after company reimbursement, so there are definitely financial incentives to living somewhere within walking distance. (I lived somewhere where busing would turn a 40 minute commute to a 70 minute one, and I value an hour a day not on the road.) Hell, it would be a pretty tough call on how much less space I'm willing to live in to trade for a ten minute walking commute. Back when I was single at least--not so much now.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by lgw ( 121541 )

            Redmond and Bellevue aren't cheap by non-SV standards (I pay north of $2400 for a two bedroom) and the commute is getting measurably longer. Hopefully that will settle down once all this new housing comes online.

            • Have they said if its going to be actual affordable housing? If not I wouldnt count on it. In denver they've been building apartments and condos like gangbusters. However all of them are still priced ridiculously high that Im not sure who all these people are that can afford them. Seems like average rent for a place outside of denver thats nice and about a 10-15 min commute to the tech area runs about 1200-1400/mo, but all these new places start at at least 2000 for a one bed to rent and most are 400k+ to

              • Re: (Score:3)

                by lgw ( 121541 )

                Supply and demand will sort it out in the long run. What's terrible is when only new businesses get built, and no new housing - then it goes through the roof. That was happening for a while in Seattle.

                My real hope is that all the new downtown housing drains the suburbs a bit, making the commute easier and suburban rents cheaper as demand declines.

            • I wasn't saying they were living areas, more areas to commute to for work(with a generic cheap very close city like Renton as a base living area). Renton is cheap and sub-30min from those areas(where jobs are).

      • Why would I pay $3000/month to share a ROOM with four other people [...]

        I pay $1477 for a 475-sqf studio apartment in San Jose, where I lived there by myself for 10+ years and make only $50K per year in IT support.

        You can make almost twice as much and pay the same amount for a 2-bedroom apartment rental with 1-car garage in a decent area here in South Florida. You are getting ripped off. What the hell are you doing there?

        • [...] here in South Florida.

          Real estate is cheap because South Florida will be under water by end of century.

          What the hell are you doing there?

          Born and raised here. One of the few natives still left here.

          • And California will have slid into the ocean after the Big One. Seems like asinine stubbornness to ignore opportunities in places where you weren't born. What do you plan to do with your savings? Retire to an old folks home in the same neighborhood?

            • And California will have slid into the ocean after the Big One.

              Still waiting after 30+ years.

              What do you plan to do with your savings? Retire to an old folks home in the same neighborhood?

              Las Vegas. Should be far enough inland to avoid the flooding of the SF Bay Area and Central Valley from rising sea levels.

    • I'm a remote developer for a mid-sized company doing a boring 9-5 enterprise job and I live in rural North Carolina where I pay $797/mo for a 2,200/sqft 3 bedroom house on an acre of land on a quiet private road. I also have great neighbors, everyone in town knows each other and I have reasonably fast internet with fiber coming within the next 5 years. You couldn't pay me enough to live in, or in any place like, overcrowded and overpriced Silicone Valley instead of where I do now.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by crgrace ( 220738 )

        I'm raising my family in SF. It's great. Lots of culture, lots of playgrounds, vibrant public schools, lots of engaged parents. SF has amazing food, interesting places to go for day trips, tons of museums and libraries. It's a great place to raise kids.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by PCM2 ( 4486 )

        I agree with your sentiments on raising a family but since you insist on calling it "SanFran" I, for one, can't wait for you to leave.

    • Why would I pay $3000/month to share a ROOM with four other people making $120K when I can BUY a four bedroom house on one acre of land in the country for $825/month on half that salary anywhere between the Rocky and Appalachian mountain ranges? I'd take the boring enterprise 9-5 job at a no-name B2B service company any day of the week and enjoy my big house and yard with my kids any day of the week.

      I agree with you, partly, on the wisdom of paying crazy rent in the valley. But I have misgivings about living away from major metropolitan areas because the smaller the metro area, the less number of employers. Less expensive real state tends to correlate with a smaller number of employers (and thus a greater risk when things go south.)

      So there is a balance where, at least for me, I prefer to pay the extra cost of living in a large metropolitan area (say, Atlanta, South Florida, Dallas, Denver, Portlan

    • I'm absolutely shocked that anyone would make the claim that "10% of all software is written in Silicon Valley" - what utter tripe! Silicon Valley may be tech heavy, but it contains less than 0.001% of the world's population that is technically capable of writing software.

      Two million new Android developers in India next year, are there 200,000 Android developers in the valley?

    • It doesn't cost that much. Seriously. Just don't live in San Francisco (which is NOT silicon valley).

      As for software, it's never been the biggest thing in Silicon Valley until the last decade. It's called "silicon" not "software", and was a big engineering hub before the wannabe programmers moved in with their social media.

      The reason the valley is nice is that if you lose your job then there's another one nearby. Employers at the moment do not like you to work from home or telecommute. Even for softwar

  • xkcd (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Austerity Empowers ( 669817 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:33PM (#52504809)

    One look at the map in TFA and this came to mind: https://xkcd.com/1138/ [xkcd.com]

    I guess it surprises someone that "software development" includes a whole lot of people all over the country. Databases don't query themselves, and there's always a lot of corporate tools in every line of work. Software developers make them...

    • Re:xkcd (Score:5, Insightful)

      by oakgrove ( 845019 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @01:03PM (#52505039)

      I guess it surprises someone that "software development" includes a whole lot of people all over the country.

      It actually surprises me that a full 10 percent of software jobs are actually in Silicon Valley. Every major city I've ever lived in across the US has been teeming with job openings in the tech sector. Just seems kind of weird that the headline of the article is going on about 90 percent of software developers working outside the valley. Is this news to anyone?

      • I guess it surprises someone that "software development" includes a whole lot of people all over the country.

        It actually surprises me that a full 10 percent of software jobs are actually in Silicon Valley. Every major city I've ever lived in across the US has been teeming with job openings in the tech sector. Just seems kind of weird that the headline of the article is going on about 90 percent of software developers working outside the valley. Is this news to anyone?

        For the mobile app/unicorn hipsters in the valley, yep.

      • Every major city I've ever lived in across the US has been teeming with job openings in the tech sector.

        Sometimes it feels like there's nothing but software jobs in Silicon Valley.

  • It's pretty much everywhere BECAUSE companies are pretty much everywhere.

    • Re:Rubbish (Score:4, Interesting)

      by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:56PM (#52504993)

      The real question I was wondering why does anyone find that surprising?
      While Silicon Valley is a major technology hub (10% of the software developers is HUGE!) there is need for software development across the globe. Many Major colleges teach Computer Science and Computer Engineering around the world, However there are a lot of Major ones in the North Eastern US. It is insane to think that all these people whose home is spread across the world, will travel away from it to study in colleges in one half of the country, then travel 2000 miles to the other end of the country for work?
      Most of these people tend to stay near their homes or their colleges (Hence why a lot of communities like having colleges in their area, causing a lot of new business around those areas, from young new grads, who have nothing to lose and startup new companies).

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:37PM (#52504837)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • It's almost like there are way more people living on the east coast than the west coast.

  • How convenient (Score:5, Insightful)

    by smooth wombat ( 796938 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:39PM (#52504853) Journal

    A trade group for the software industry claiming there are a quarter million software jobs open around the country. Yet oddly, when people with years of experience apply for these positions they are routinely told they don't have the experience the company is looking for.

    Granted, not every candidate has the experience for every position, but it seems quite odd that for all the people who apply for a position, not one is qualified. Ever. Not even remotely close qualified. Even with the thousands of new developers being sent to pasture every month from other companies.

    And here we have a trade group for the software industry essentially claiming the same thing. Coincidence? You decide.

    • They like there chained to the job H1B's

    • You're not the only one who's noticed this. Although I am currently employed, and have actually never been out of work since I started working around '94 or so, I do change jobs every 3-5 years on the average. And I've had some very inexplicable rejections for positions that I was beyond qualified for. On paper, at least, I look good (I like to think I'm pretty good in person, too, but "on paper" is completely objective), yet I've been rejected from way more developer positions that I've had every single

    • Re:How convenient (Score:4, Insightful)

      by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @01:02PM (#52505029)

      Being involved in the hiring process, I find that a lot of technology candidates with many years of experience do not have the right experience. Too much focus on New Technology that the organization may not implement. Too much focus on older technology that we are trying to faze out, or had removed a long time ago. Or jobs that require basic human interaction, because no matter how good they are technically, we don't want need a jackass who makes everyone looks bad. Where you are better off with someone with less skillsets, who is better for the job.

      • I have had to deal with plenty of entry level people trying to fill senior level positions either they make it through the trial by fire or they don't. If those people you are hiring for their charisma you find leaving in less than a year chances are you need to rethink that strategy.

      • Too much focus on New Technology ... Too much focus on older technology

        So... you want somebody who hasn't worked on new technology OR old technology?

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward

          So... you want somebody who hasn't worked on new technology OR old technology?

          Yeah, my bullshit detector was twitching on this one too.

          Hire a good generalist and TRAIN them.

      • Re:How convenient (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Gavrielkay ( 1819320 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @03:32PM (#52505999)
        I can understand a personality fit problem, but complaining about 'the right experience' is nonsense. Look for flexible people who can solve problems and they'll pick up whatever your flavor of the month is. Has hiring really come down to stupid HR lists? Must have 3 years of X and 2 years of Y. Please. You should be looking for problem solvers, not people who fit some arbitrary magical list. Yeah, it's harder to evaluate for 'smart, flexible' person than to scan a resume but the result is much better.

      • Too much focus on New Technology that the organization may not implement. Too much focus on older technology that we are trying to faze out, or had removed a long time ago.

        So no new technology, and no old technology.
        I think I see your problem.

    • A trade group for the software industry claiming there are a quarter million software jobs open around the country. Yet oddly, when people with years of experience apply for these positions they are routinely told they don't have the experience the company is looking for.

      Indeed. This is part of the "have to find a pink unicorn" philosophy of corporate hiring brought about by the disposable worker phenomenon. That is: Companies only want to hire the special snowflake that already has 100% of the skills and knowledge they want because they are willing to invest $0 in training them to do the job. Once upon a time, experience in related (but not identical) skills and tools were considered a good measurement of whether you could learn something and be good at a job involving it.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by lgw ( 121541 )

      And here we have a trade group for the software industry essentially claiming the same thing. Coincidence? You decide.

      Every place I've worked on the West Coast has a developer hiring bar that turns away between 60% and 80% of those they interview. "Experience" on the resume doesn't matter once you're that far - it's all about demonstrating coding skills.

      I don't think it's a great system. I see too many candidate rejected who would be perfectly acceptable in the role. The bar is set high enough that normal random performance variation of the candidates mean there's IMO a 50% chance that any given qualified candidate get

  • makes sense. (Score:3)

    by wierd_w ( 1375923 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:39PM (#52504857)

    You dont have to be from silicon valley to be interested in software, and the best developers are the ones who learned out of personal self interest. such people will be all over the place.

    It makes sense that employers who need and value them will accept telecommuting in exchange for securing that talent, given the so called scarcity. (sweetening the deal, rural US wages are much lower than on the coasts.)

    I really dont see what is so unusual about this statistic.

  • News flash: People live and work elsewhere (Score:5, Insightful)

    by OzPeter ( 195038 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:40PM (#52504859)

    Film at 11.

    Why do people think that Silcon valley is the be all and end all of software development?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sjames ( 1099 )

      I'm fairly sure the "Valley People" think the rest of us are living in caves grunting at each other around the fire.

    • Why do people think that Silcon valley is the be all and end all of software development?

      It pays better. That's why for me.
      Yeah, it's true that housing costs are expensive, but where else can you get $170k-$200k? That's more than enough to make up for the increased expenses.

  • Just In... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:42PM (#52504877)

    Breaking News!

    The world doesn't revolve around California.

    In related news, New York and London are also not the center of the universe. This news may come to a shock to just under 0.5% of the world's population that live in these locations.

  • Is anybody really surprised at this?

  • 10 percent! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by invid ( 163714 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:43PM (#52504893)
    I'm actually surprised that as many as 10 percent work inside Silicon Valley.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jetkust ( 596906 )
      You're surprised because it's absurd. There is no way 10% of all developers are in Silicon Valley. It doesn't even say that anywhere in the article. I don't even know where the number comes from.

  • I am more shocked that 10% of all developers in the US work in the Silicon Valley area. I would have guessed a sub-5% figure.

  • People whose "product" is independent of where they produce it don't want to live in areas where it's insanely expensive to rent a cardboard box, let alone an apartment.

    Who would have thought?

  • Seriously, I don't get it. On alternating weeks there are stories of how there is a shortage of qualified IT people in the US labor market or stories of how qualified IT people are training their H1-B replacements. WHICH IS IT???

    • Re:Confused! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by wierd_w ( 1375923 ) on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:55PM (#52504979)

      there is a shortage of "qualified applicants".

      There is not a shortage of talent.

      qualified applicant == a person with the skillset we want that will also work at well below median pay, work much more than median hours without overtime, and is beholden to the company and cannot leave easily. They also have to be local, so they can attend those all important meetings.

      I hope that helps.

      • So sadly true. H1B is such a crock of shit it's a wonder that anyone in the process can stomach the stench. I guess the piles of money made from the indentured servitude of others must mask the smell.
    • You don't honestly think that any of those developers that TFA refers to are US citizens, do you?

    • There is a real shortage of qualified software developers, but there is far less of a shortage of the rest of it, such as support and system installation(Linux/Windows sysadmins).
       

  • Gee, you can't fit all 100% of programmers into a small geographic area? Some of them don't want to live there? What a crazy world we live in!

    I'd bet 90% is a bit low for an estimate. Probably more like 99% of software developers work outside of Silicon Valley.

  • The ratio of Silicone Valley's population to the rest of the world is
    2.63x10^-4. Most developers live outside of that tiny area?! I'd have been amazed if it was any other way...!

  • Stop repeating that myth. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13, 2016 @12:56PM (#52504985)

    The chronic talent shortage afflicting Silicon Valley is now all over the US—and the developers are too.

    There is no chronic shortage. It is a myth invented by tech companies to get the H1-b quota boosted.

    And if any company is having a hard time recruiting people, they are doing something very wrong. My company hasn't had to use a recruiter or job board in over 8 years. HR just sends out an email to everyone saying they're looking for someone and in about two weeks, the new person starts. Somebody on the team knows someone with the skills who's looking for a new job.

    Also, don't immediately discount unemployed folks. Just because they're out of work doesn't mean they're no good - especially in this day and age of people being replaced by H1-bs and offshoring.

    And as far as new grads are concerned, "elite" schools don't have a monopoly on hard working smart kids.

    And maybe your system isn't as cutting edge as you think it is. I've seen too many jobs where at most a BS CIS is all that's needs and many times a 2 year tech grad would be able to do a wonderful job. But they want the MIT grad to do their web page.

    • Also, don't immediately discount unemployed folks. Just because they're out of work doesn't mean they're no good - especially in this day and age of people being replaced by H1-bs and offshoring.

      I was out of work for two years (2009-10), underemployed for six months (working 20 hours per month), and filed for chapter seven bankruptcy in 2011. During that time I was told by hiring managers that I was overqualified for minimum wage jobs and recruiters that I was unemployable for anything else. Funny how that attitude changed all the sudden when they needed bodies to fill out the headcount as the economy turned around. I spent the next two years working seven days a week.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by vux984 ( 928602 )

      and many times a 2 year tech grad would be able to do a wonderful job. But they want the MIT grad to do their web page.

      ... and they want to pay him less than the even the 2 year college grad would accept.

  • I've lived in a rural part of Texas for almost ten years. I left a programming job at a telecommunications company and joined a software outfit that had been out here for 25 years. I'm much happier here.
  • Should I say "duh", or should I say "so?"

  • after all, "computer software developer" is the most popular job in CO, UT, VA and WA. [npr.org]

  • It's still pretty absurd when you think about it since this could just as easily read, "10% of All Software Developers in the World, Concentrated in 10 Mile Radius."

  • TIL India is outside of Silicon Valley

  • I never understood what the big deal is with Silicon Valley. That region is filled with companies that have inept management. Why put HQ where 2342423424 other companies jockey for the scarce talent in the area? The US is a big place, they can put their offices in many other places...where realty prices are much lower, the weather is less hot, labor costs are lower, talent is plentiful, excellent colleges exist...the list goes on.

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