Dutchman Dies in Tesla Crash; Firefighters Feared Electrocution (reuters.com) 243
A Dutchman died on Wednesday after his Tesla collided with a tree, according to local authorities, and it took firefighters hours to remove his body from the vehicle due to fears they could be electrocuted. Reuters reports: The cause of the crash on a highway about 40 kilometers east of Amsterdam was not known. Photos of the crash scene published by local media showed the back of the car mostly intact but its front smashed in and parts strewn about. Tesla said it was "working with the authorities to establish the facts of the incident" and would publish its findings as soon as they were available. A spokeswoman said it was not known whether the car was using "autopilot", Tesla's driving assistance technology, at the time of the crash, and that would form part of the investigation. A fatal crash of a Tesla Model S in the United States earlier this year knocked the company's shares and raised concerns about whether automated driving technology was being released to consumers safely.
Not just Tesla (Score:2)
But wouldn't there be an electrocution risk with any EV or hybrid?
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Prius: 288V
Tesla: 375V
I wouldn't rate the Tesla as significantly more likely to kill you, but in a near-worst case scenario Tesla's battery has additional voltage to kill you with, and even more amps to make sure you're well cooked. ~85 kWh vs 4.4 kWh.
van der Decken (Score:2, Funny)
The Frying Dutchman as it were.
All you can eat my ass! (Score:2)
That place says all you can eat but they kick people out when they think they had to much.
TFA (Score:5, Informative)
TFA says that since they had already determined that the driver was dead, they were extra cautious. They do have protocols for dealing with electric cars, and would doubtless have acted quicker if there had been a chance to save the driver. As it was, they waited for an expert to come and give it a once over, which seems prudent.
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Agreed. They had determined the sole occupant was dead and so there was no point in further risk of life in dealing with the wreckage.
How is this even news? Is it because it is an electric car? We've had electric cars before. If one is to include things like electric forklifts then I imagine similar situations have come up many times before. Is it news because it is a Tesla? If so then is this supposed to make them look bad? Perhaps someone's bias is showing.
If this had been a wreck in water then I i
News reporting creates cognitive biases (Score:5, Insightful)
We have a fundamental problem: our brains tend to confuse the availability and prevalence of information about something with the prevalence of the underlying event.
Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.
I think the same bias plays into current panic over child abductions, which is distorting evaluation of common parenting strategies like letting kids play by themselves: it's not that abductions today are more common in the past, but that today's media is much better equipped to discover and wildly and rapidly disseminate information about them.
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But think back to circa 2000, when Ford Explorers started seeing issues with Firestone tyres... That was estimated to have caused "over 250 deaths and 3,000 serious injuries" [wikipedia] - and yes, when those numbers started to rack up, there were stories in the pre
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We have a fundamental problem: our brains tend to confuse the availability and prevalence of information about something with the prevalence of the underlying event.
Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.
I think the same bias plays into current panic over child abductions, which is distorting evaluation of common parenting strategies like letting kids play by themselves: it's not that abductions today are more common in the past, but that today's media is much better equipped to discover and wildly and rapidly disseminate information about them.
This goes doubly for gun violence (generally), mass shootings (specifically), and police shootings (aka, #BLM).
Most of the stats haven't changed much, and several have actually decreased. Media availability makes everything seem fresh and dynamic, with (IMHO) serious societal effects manifesting as a result.
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Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.
Indeed. For most car brands we'd be looking at a fatal crash story daily - not quarterly or less as with Tesla, usually with a crash so extreme it'd be newsworthy anyways.
"Crash was so violent that it ripped the car in half and lodged the rear end a story up between a church and an office building". Made all the more newsworthy that the driver managed to be 'live' enough to make it to surgery, even if he subsequently died. This was for the first fatal Tesla crash I read about.
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so few? there's over 100,000 total Teslas out there.
also, no, reporting on every crash is not fair. the claim is that autopilot is better than a human, not that autopilot is infallible. and that Teslas are safer than other cars, not that Teslas are indestructible. fair reporting would be reporting on the statistics, not individual Tesla incidents (while ignoring all other brand of cars' fatal accidents).
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so few? there's over 100,000 total Teslas out there
That is few. For a comparison, for example, GM makes more than 100,000 Sierra/Silverado pickup trucks per year. Then add in the SUVs (Tahoe/etc) based on the same platform and that's at least 200,000 per year. Tesla's 100,000+ vehicles are its total production over several years.
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That is few. For a comparison, for example, GM makes more than 100,000 Sierra/Silverado pickup trucks per year. Then add in the SUVs (Tahoe/etc) based on the same platform and that's at least 200,000 per year. Tesla's 100,000+ vehicles are its total production over several years.
While it's few, even the major automakers have made plenty of cars which sold less over their total lifetime than the model S, a handful which sold less than the X, and even some which sold less than the Roadster. Most of them are still on the road, too.
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Sure, as long as you report on every fatality involving the cars they claim they are safer than too.
Electrocution wasn't the reason (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason was because the car was engulfed in flames and the occupant was already dead. It's not like they didn't extinguish the fire or let the occupant die. You can use large amounts of water to extinguish Lithium battery fires (removing both heat and oxygen) and these batteries are dry, not pure liquid lithium. This would be similar for a gas powered car if the gas tank is engulfed, fire fighters won't risk recovering corpses or property if there is a substantial risk of an explosion.
Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly this. The relevant facts are: A man crashed a car into a tree and died. Since he was already dead and no other human life was at risk, firefighters took no unnecessary risks as they managed the fire. The rest was just a bunch of blather to try to turn an all too common everyday event into a story.
Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason (Score:4, Informative)
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First responder manual on EV. Large amounts meaning what comes out of a fire hose, not a bucket. You want to cool the device and dilute any chemicals.
photo's (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.112apeldoorn.nl/page/Nieuwsdetail/35830/dodelijk-ongeval-met-tesla-in-baarn
why (Score:3)
why is this news? every type of car on the road has fatal collisions every day. fearmongering about electric cars is dumb.
Imagine if they reported every Ford crash (Score:2)
we'd be flooded
Advanced fire fighter training for Tesla Model X (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Lost focus (Score:2)
A fatal crash of a Tesla Model S in the United States earlier this year knocked the company's shares and raised concerns about whether automated driving technology was being released to consumers safely.
Simple answer: It isn't.
Stop all this automated up-selling bullshit and give me my damn electric car.
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Using the driver assist technologies isn't mandatory.
But it is a great feature, and can take some of the monotony of driving away. I want more of it.
Yes, driving can be fun. Zipping around the twisty-windies is great. (It's even more fun on two wheels than it is inside four.) It can also be utter boredom.
My electric car still has a gas engine too, but when 300 mile range hits my price point, chances are it won't.
News Update (Score:2)
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If they cut the power to an electrical fire, enough water will put the rest out.
A lithium fire is the LAST thing you want to pour water on, on the other hand, so no, it's not like your "house or building" at all.
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Re:Great firefighters (Score:5, Interesting)
actually, having seen the guidance Tesla issued to first responders, _small amounts_ of water are the last thing you want. Lots and lots of water to cool it down, on the other hand, is the prescribed method to extinguish Tesla battery fires.
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WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! (Score:5, Funny)
Tesla's KILLER ROBOTS 2 , Humanity 0
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Wait, are you saying humans have destroyed NO Tesla cars yet?!
Who did they hire to build them, NOKIA?!
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I just Shatnered my pants. Mod the parent up!
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Li Ion does not have metallic Lithium. Some batteries do. They are completely different, people confuse them.
Re:Great firefighters (Score:4, Informative)
First off, there was no fire.
Really? Because the linked article says "Newspaper De Telegraaf reported the car's battery was broken, and part of it caught fire and was difficult to extinguish." which clearly indicates that there was a fire.
Seriously, do they not train rescue workers? If so then why don't they train them to respond to electric and hybrid vehicle crashes so that they know what's safe and what's not? It's their job, they should know what the heck they're doing.
The linked article also says "De Boer said since firefighters were certain the victim had died immediately after the crash, it did not make sense for rescue workers to take unneeded risks in recovering his body." which clearly explains why the firefighters didn't risk their lives even if the chance of electrocution was very small.
Maybe next time you're about to go off on a rant like this, you should take the time to read the linked article before you make yourself look stupid in public.
Re:Great firefighters (Score:5, Informative)
For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power. That's the reason data centers usually have the "big red button"; that is there to make it "safe" for firefighters. The 240VAC main in a typical house (at least in the US) is much less dangerous than the high-voltage DC found in electric cars.
Also, while you can get a short by spraying water across live electrical lines, they are not liable to explode like lithium batteries.
Were they overly cautious? Possibly. Are there legitimate concerns about how to deal with the electric cars? Yes. Should they be handled with better training? Also yes.
Re:Great firefighters (Score:5, Informative)
Not like Tesla has any guide for First Responders to help in said training efforts. Oh wait, they do. https://www.tesla.com/firstres... [tesla.com]
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Re:Great firefighters (Score:5, Informative)
On p. 14, "Cutting the front trunk first responder loop", it shows how to disable the high voltage. Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire. This shuts down the high voltage system outside of the high voltage battery itself. For extra safety, you cut a section out of it so it won't reconnect accidentally.
IMO they should put this on the first page. But at least it is there.
Re:Great firefighters (Score:4, Informative)
From the article: "Photos of the crash scene published by local media showed the back of the car mostly intact but its front smashed in and parts strewn about."
I'm guessing that they probably couldn't see the label or if they could it wasn't near the coiled loop of red wire anymore.
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On p. 14, "Cutting the front trunk first responder loop", it shows how to disable the high voltage. Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire. This shuts down the high voltage system outside of the high voltage battery itself. For extra safety, you cut a section out of it so it won't reconnect accidentally.
IMO they should put this on the first page. But at least it is there.
I'm more concerned about what it more important than that which occupied 14 pages before this.
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Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire.
That's a bizarre place to put a "first responder loop". In what percentage of situations would a car require the first responders to cut at the body of the car, but still be able to open the front hood without cutting? In a good fraction of bad collisions, it's the front of the car that is demolished.
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Could this be done automatically, either through an accelerometer or just tying a weight to the wire? It's not like the car is going anywhere anyway after experiencing 200+g's.
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Existing airbag crash sensors could be used to detect the crash. Design it to release some sort of spring-loaded jumper that disconnects the battery.
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Existing airbag crash sensors could be used to detect the crash. Design it to release some sort of spring-loaded jumper that disconnects the battery.
Most cars already have this (any car with an electric fuel pump), generally called an "inertia switch". I saw some evidence that Teslas have this feature as well (some forum posts) but was unable to find anything specific from the company itself in a quick search.
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http://www.pyroswitch.com/ [pyroswitch.com]
It's an explosive that cuts a copper bus bar in half.
Very cool to test:)
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Re: Great firefighters (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't want to pay firefighters to be trained in a car that .000001% of the populace has. There is much more beneficial training to be had.
And yet all firefighters receive extensive hazmat training, despite cars carrying hazardous materials being .000001% of the population. Even trucks carrying hazardous materials are a tiny fraction of all truck miles driven. They can get the training and you can fucking pay for it.
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How are the risks from a Tesla greater than the risks from hybrid cars which are all over the place?
Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings (Score:2)
For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power.
Just wait until they start installing the Tesla battery packs designed for buildings. As batteries become more and more efficient and longer lived they are going to start appearing in more and more locations. Fire crews clearly need to have the training to deal with them otherwise they will not be able to do their job safely and effectively.
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As batteries become more and more efficient and longer lived they are going to start appearing in more and more locations.
I've had to deal when designing a solar system for my house, or even putting in a generator. There's a switch on the side of my house that they can use to shut all of that off, and for something like the Tesla battery, I can see a "big red button" being required at the service entrance that, if pushed, deactivates a relay keeping the power connected.
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If large batteries become cheap enough and powerful enough to make sense in houses, I wouldn't be surprised to see a building code change that requires them to be encased in some kind of fire-resistant box and/or have a thermal switch that shuts them off in the event of a fire.
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For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power.
The NEC includes what is known as the "6 throw rule." You must be able to shut down the power to a building by throwing no more than 6 switches/breakers on a single panel.
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The 240VAC main in a typical house (at least in the US) is much less dangerous than the high-voltage DC found in electric cars.
What high voltage DC? The Tesla's battery pack is 375V, lower than the 415V ph-ph supplied to pretty much every apartment in the Netherlands, and what is actually used in houses with a high load.
But the idea that AC or DC are more dangerous at these voltages and currents doesn't make sense. Both present very different risks with a DC arc flash being far more dangerous in terms of burns, while AC is far more dangerous to your nervous system.
The only time there's really a difference is at low voltages where t
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What high voltage DC? The Tesla's battery pack is 375V, lower than the 415V ph-ph supplied to pretty much every apartment in the Netherlands
Are you sure? Voltage here in Europe is usually a single 230V phase pretty much everywhere, unless you are running a small factory or have huge power requirements at home, then you will use 3 phases. Maybe you were talking about the 315V peak to peak, but it will still be less than 375V, anyway, the problem is not just the voltage, it's that the voltage is encased in a metal shell, and if that shell looks broken and poking everywhere, you either proceed very carefully or you are ignorant. The same firefight
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Voltage here in Europe is usually a single 230V phase pretty much everywhere
Next you get your meter serviced or calibrated have a look at how its setup. Most apartments have 400V ph-ph (not 415V that's Australia) running through them with each apartment hooked to an alternate phase.
This is also what makes it trivially easy for places to hook up 3ph power when required, and there's all sorts of things that needs it. e.g. my next door neighbour had 3ph connections put in as he had a hobby of repairing commercial espresso machines. My old house had 3ph because of the HVAC unit. My friend's house has a 3ph connection because they have 2 ovens in their kitchen. You don't need a massive load to justify 3ph power especially considering most countries have this facility available already at houses in any major city.
Also 120VDC doesn't hurt. Take it from experience. 110VAC does. 240VAC even more so, and doubly so when the shock makes you punch yourself in the face.
Should you approach these cars with care? Yes, they can kill you. But my point is your assertion that these cars are far more dangerous wasn't right.
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But the idea that AC or DC are more dangerous at these voltages and currents doesn't make sense.
Actually, DC can be much more deadly at lower voltages than AC. The main reason is that AC current goes to zero twice per second, while DC is full current at a constant rate. So a resistive load (a firefighter in the circuit) will fry faster under 600VDC that 600VAC. For this same reason, it is also easier to interrupt an AC current vs a DC current, and why high voltage DC interrupting and switching devices are much more expensive and elaborate than same voltage AC equipment.
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The total impedance of the human body is higher for DC and decreases when the frequency increases (illustrated here: http://www.electroboom.com/?p=... [electroboom.com]). Since the impedance for DC is higher, the severity of electric shock is less than AC. Ventricular fibrillation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V
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That's a myth, and one that is perpetuated every time this topic comes up. Let's leave aside that your muscles wouldn't be able to react fast enough to make use of the AC current going through zero at 50 or 60 Hz.
No, it is a fact. That is why you have an RMS current value with AC vs DC. And as far as reacting, is not about reaction speed, not sure why you brought that up. So, as I said, there will be more current, and therefore more energy dissipated in the DC case. I said the firefighter would fry faster with DC, that is the case.
I never said anything about gripping or letting go. Again, not sure why you brought that up. However, if the person did break the circuit, there would be less arcing in the AC case, and
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Reaction is not relevent to me because I dont assume a person will react and release theirself in either case.
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Also, arcing: to bridge 1 cm of air with an arc you need 30KV. At that point, the arc is the least of your worries be it AC or DC.
That is to initiate an arc in an open circuit. That will vary of course with air humidity, particluates, etc. But when interrupting a circuit, arcing continues for a much greater distance before it is extinquished. That distance is significantly higher in a DC circuit.
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Please keep reading, and then lookup the standards while you're at it. The fact that the voltage drops to zero has nothing to do with how deadly something is. E.g. you can quite happily direct high frequency very high voltage through your body and the only thing that you have to worry about is burning flesh and potential blood clots. The result doesn't affect your nervous system. 30-100Hz on the other hand is about as deadly as it gets for the body which is exactly why I mentioned the max safe touch potenti
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50V DC passing through your body is fatal
50VDC is not fatal for 99% of the population based on IEC curves. 50VAC however is the maximum safe touch potential defined in many countries. You're right that with DC your hang-up is stronger, but the physiological effects that kill a person requires significantly higher duration of electrocution than the equivalent AC voltage which can disrupt your nervous system in just a few cycles.
DC kills people via burns and blood clots. AC stops your heart. I too have touched 230V and lived to tell the tale. That's
Re: Great firefighters (Score:2)
Uh the big red button is/used to be to pause a halon dump. There is no big red button in the dc. The switch is on the UPS before the bypass. And that is some scary shit to switch. The last time I switched the bypass manually I did it with a hockey stick (like that would have helped).
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Every system I've ever dealt with, the big red button causes a Halon (ok, Ecaro 25 these days) dump. The yellow button is the holdoff button.
In bigger data centers, that big red button also triggers the UPS off circuit.
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I thought the US ran on 110/127 V/60 Hz AC, the rest of the world uses 220/240 V/50 Hz.
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Re: Great firefighters (Score:2, Informative)
In the event of a house fire the electricity is disconnected as soon as possible from the structure. Either by removing the meter or the utility cuts the lines at the junction box.
Fire fighters rarely go into a building that is still connected to the mains.
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At least in the US houses have pullable meters, or master switch outside, or option to disconnect electricity at nearby pole. Firefighters do it before spraying water, or call electric company to disconnect electricity.
Burning Li Ion batteries emit highly toxic fumes. I wouldn't even get close. And the certainly start burning if impact is heavy enough to damage them.
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Your house can be disconnected from the mains at a safe distance.
Disconnecting the batteries in an electric car on fire - not so easy.
Unless your house has solar + battery backup. Many have an off-switch for emergency responders (sometimes required by law), but you still need to approach the house to reach it.
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The story is that a Tesla was involved, that's it.
Welcome to tesladot.org: News for Telsa nerds, stuff that matters (if you are into Tesla)
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Witnesses say he was going too fast. "He was just flying", noted one person.
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A Flying Dutchman? I thought this was a car crash, not a shipwreck...
=Smidge=
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lol ok at least made me smile old as i am.
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you have to unlock the option after catching all the Pokémon
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Not necessarily, they have special equipment that allows them to handle things like that without grounding themselves. I used to know a guy that worked those lines, they'd have to climb the ladder and have lunch in the middle of a tower. Same goes for gas lines, they actually only work on pressurized lines because otherwise a gas/air mixture could explode whereas gas by itself doesn't.
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You talking much higher voltages than this. 600Volts to 1.35 Kvolts is the medium voltage. Anything below 600 doesn't require special certifications to be around. Those below 600 volts you can touch the insulation on hot wires without risk of shock (assuming no nicks...) Above 600 you start having to use the special poles to check if they are hot. it is more in the 25 kV plus stuff your talking about, where you can get arc flashes that kill you while still several feet of air.
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Yeah. They do their best to never cut the power on those circuits. If the towers are still standing, chances are good that the circuit is hot.
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People get confused over the differences, and make rules of thumb that are simply wrong.
Re:High Voltage? (Score:4, Funny)
Unfortunately we still have to do it that way in Kansas, there are only 3 abortion clinics in the whole state.
Re:Frist to come must shut power down (Score:5, Insightful)
They know what to do with modern vehicles. I understand the rush to be a first poster rather than actually reading the article.
If you had actually read the article you would have seen:
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I understand the rush to be a first poster rather than actually reading the article.
I don't!
It exemplifies everything depressing about the internet! It was (1) WRONG, (2) snarky, and (3) got modded up as insightful by others who also didn't read the article! The only thing missing is the fact that the poster wasn't anonymous.
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From the article:
They know exactly how to handle the vehicles in regular situations, and had the victim still had a chance of being alive I'm sure they would have rushed in. Most likely the body was severely mangled. When the victim is clearly dead there is no point in rushing in to rescue a corpse.
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In any case, Tesla will gain the ultimate advantage with full robot drive (assuming they get it right.) The need for the best crumple zones and whatnot plummets if you don't get into accidents in the first place, so Volvo's advantage in that will disappear.
Of course Volvo may even have it first.
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You know what I hate? Useless fuks (who would run crying to mummy if they saw what those firemen saw) commenting on fire fighters from their armchair without knowing all the facts and having no real idea what unfolded or why.
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You know what I also hate? People who use the word "fag" a lot to try and cover up their own homosexual tendencies. Just come out of the closet already.
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What are you talking about. Water is conductive, and firefighter clothes are not hermetic when they respond to simple accidents like this. Firefighters do get electric shock sometimes, although it isn't necessary as more often electricity travels to ground IF water reaches ground first.
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Uh, newsflash, metal/electrical fires get handled with class D extinguishing dry material. Most every truck typically carries something sufficient.
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They're still supposed to TRY. How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?
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How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?
I think firefighters are probably some of the most qualified persons to make that call. Sometimes its quite obvious when a person is dead. You can assume this was not one of those situations, but there is no information available to support that assumption.
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There are some obvious signs that are sufficient. For example, head detached from body is generally a pretty good one, as is brain matter splattered. They don't specify how they knew, but it is sometimes possible to definitively diagnose death from a distance.
Re:People are idiots (Score:5, Informative)
"I would bet most fire departments have little training yet on EV batteries."
You lose that bet. Firefighters are trained to handle metal fires like sodium and lithium. Battery or raw element makes zero difference, their training should've had them able to handle that fire. Protip: Class D fire extinguisher (I was a volunteer firefighter.)