New MacBook Pro's Dedicated AMD Graphics Chips Are 'Significantly' Faster and Support Dual 5K Displays (macrumors.com) 170
Whereas Apple's new 13-inch MacBook Pros feature integrated Iris Pro graphics, the 15-inch MacBook Pros feature dedicated AMD graphics, resulting in significant performance improvements over previous MacBook Pro models. Ars Technica's Andrew Cunningham found the Radeon Pro 455 graphics chip in particular to be a "significant boost" over the dedicated GPUs available in the 2012-2015 MacBook Pro models, such as the Nvidia GeForce GTX 650M, Nvidia GeForce GTX 750M, and AMD Radeon R9 M370X. MacRumors reports: AMD's Polaris-based Radeon Pro 450, Radeon Pro 455, and built-to-order Radeon Pro 460 GPUs in the new 15-inch MacBook Pro support up to six displays, whereas Intel's integrated GPUs affixed to the logic board can drive a total of three displays. The expanded support enables the new MacBook Pro to drive two of Apple and LG's new UltraFine 5K displays at 60Hz simultaneously. Intel's GPUs can't because, due to bandwidth limitations of the DisplayPort 1.2 spec, the two 5K displays technically function as four displays. This method is known as Multi-Stream Transport (MST). Apple could have used Nvidia's faster Pascal-based GPUs, which support DisplayPort 1.3, but Thunderbolt 3 and most monitors do not support the higher-bandwidth spec yet. In the meantime, Nvidia's GPUs can only drive up to three displays beyond the main MacBook Pro screen -- not enough for dual 5K displays over MST. Apple officially says the 15-inch MacBook Pro offers up to 130% faster graphics performance, and up to 2.5x more computing power per watt, compared to the previous-generation 15-inch MacBook Pro, but those stats are based on the built-to-order Radeon Pro 460 chip that costs between $100 and $200 extra.
Comparison to Current GPUs? (Score:5, Insightful)
the Radeon Pro 455 graphics chip in particular to be a "significant boost" over...the Nvidia GeForce GTX 650M, Nvidia GeForce GTX 750M, and AMD Radeon R9 M370X
I bet it is also a lot faster than the graphics on my 1980's BBC Model B too but that's not really a useful comparison is it? It it were not better than the GPUs in machines which are at least 18 months old it would be pretty pathetic. How about the comparison to the new nVidia 10-series mobile GPUs that new non-Mac laptops are getting?
Re:Comparison to Current GPUs? (Score:5, Informative)
> How about the comparison to the new nVidia 10-series mobile GPUs that new non-Mac laptops are getting?
Because, there are no Pascal GPU's with a TDP of 35W. If you put a 85W GTX 1060 into a Macbook Pro it'd probably burst into flames. Also, mobile Polaris chips are significantly thinner.
Re:Comparison to Current GPUs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe if they shouldn't make it so thin then? That way it could support performance parts.
Basically I've said it before -- the new macbook pro is the very best macbook air they could make. And if you want a really nice macbook air you are in luck... but if you wanted something that could actually perform in the same league as a Dell Precision, and were willing to carry around a little extra size and weight to get that performance... well ... tough.
Apple doesn't make design compromises to meet performance targets... apple just makes performance compromises until it fits into their design targets. Just be happy... no be *delighted*... that the new macbook pro is faster than the one they made 4 years ago... because based on Ars Technica this is a somehow an achievement.
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I'd rather have a MacBook Pro as thick as my 2008 aluminum MB, especially if I could get things like replaceable RAM, SSD, and a removable battery. If I want thin above all else, that's what MacBooks are for.
Barring that, maybe Apple should look at the design of their old PowerBook Duo. A thin laptop, but stick it in a docking station, and you gain a lot more ports. Done right, this could be a decent compromise between a thin laptop and a decent desktop with good performance, especially if it has the abi
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Barring that, maybe Apple should look at the design of their old PowerBook Duo. A thin laptop, but stick it in a docking station, and you gain a lot more ports.
There are docks for the new MacBooks, just not made by Apple. A quick Google search found me several different companies that make them, a few examples:
https://hengedocks.com/ [hengedocks.com]
https://www.landingzone.net/ [landingzone.net]
https://www.elgato.com/en/thun... [elgato.com]
http://zenboxx.com/ [zenboxx.com]
http://www.belkin.com/us/F4U08... [belkin.com]
If you want a dock with a "decent" GPU then there are a number of combinations of PCIe cages and GPUs to choose from. That's getting into an odd place though since few people would go through the expense of getting a lapto
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There are docks for the new MacBooks
Someone should build a whole mac laptop into one of the docks, then we could carry around that and not bother buying a new macbook.
Apple is completely neurotic here.
They make an all-in-one desktop -- that is pointless because for a device that just sits on my desk there is really no functional advantage to having everything built into the screen, and as a result its woefully underpowered, and impossible to upgrade.
Yet as soon as I want something portable, where all-in-oneness, and having everything built i
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But wake up apple, there is more than exactly one demographic, and the macbook air market is the only one you even acknowledge now.
My oh my, such a mountain out of a molehill.
You say you need USB-A ports? A pack of 3 USB 2.0 adapters cost $6. A USB 3.1 adapter costs maybe $12. Keep in mind this is for a $2000 laptop. Is an extra $20 going to break you?
When I pack my laptop I pack the cables I need, like the HDMI and Ethernet cables you mention. I have an older MacBook Pro and so when I think I need Ethernet I pack an Ethernet cable with the Thunderbolt adapter stuck on the end. That adapter costs maybe $30 and is the size of a pa
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You say you need USB-A ports? A pack of 3 USB 2.0 adapters cost $6. A USB 3.1 adapter costs maybe $12. Keep in mind this is for a $2000 laptop. Is an extra $20 going to break you?
Wait? You think this is about the money? It's not about the money. This is about convenience. This is about having something that just works. This is about getting the job done anywhere. I'd gladly pay $500 more for a laptop that gave me 12+ hours of battery and the most common ports just so that I don't have to babysit a bag of dongles and cables.
That adapter costs maybe $30 and is the size of a pack of chewing gum.
If I forget or lose or break the ehternet cable in my bag, I can rely on practically every office I might be in having one. I can rely on all of my peers having
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I don't think you know what ubiquitous means.
Let me look it up...
ubiquitous |yoÍzoËbikwÉ(TM)tÉ(TM)s|
adjective
present, appearing, or found everywhere: his ubiquitous influence was felt by all the family | cowboy hats are ubiquitous among the male singers.
That's what I thought it meant. I did a quick internet search on some stores I know to be in small towns around here, did a search for USB-C adapters, and looked for in store pickup to see if it was actually at the store. First thing I found out is that even small town hardware stores carry these things. They might not have them in the store right now but they know how to get them in a few days or even overnight. By next Christmas they will be on the shelves next to the candy bars, c
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They might not have them in the store right now but they know how to get them in a few days or even overnight.
yeah, because when the guy next to you hands you a device, you think 'ubiquitous support' means go to a store and wait a few day to plug it in.
Are you even listening to yourself?
The town I live in is not "small" but not huge either. There is a hardware store near me that I know will carry some pretty obscure stuff if even one customer asks for it. If someone asks for one of something they'll buy a dozen knowing that more people will likely be asking for it in the future. If I ask for USB-C cables they'll likely carry them by next week.
That's great, if i'm ever in your town, guess which store you are thinking of, and am fortunate enough to go there at least a week after you've asked for one. Again... that's the oppositive of 'ubiquitous' availability. You know what ubiquitous is? rj45 ethernet and USBA flash drives and TVs with HDMI.
I've accepted that at some point the old must be replaced by the new. USB 1.1 devices took a while to become ubiquitous too. This current rarity of USB-C devices will pass soon enough.
Sure. But I live in the present
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Sure. But I live in the present.
Apple is making a device to sell for the next 18 months. Come back in 6 months and see if the same complaint holds.
I used hardware stores as an example of the last place people would go to find things like this. Even the small town hardware stores carry them, as in the same places people go to get paint and drywall screws. In a big box store like Walmart, a cell phone store, many truck stops, and so forth, there will be USB-C products on the shelves.
Also, you keep going on about RJ-45, which is odd to me
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Apple is making a device to sell for the next 18 months. Come back in 6 months and see if the same complaint holds.
Will everyone still have USBA devices in 6 months or even 18 months? Yes. Next question.
I used hardware stores as an example of the last place people would go to find things like this. Even the small town hardware stores carry them
If anything, that just tells you how many people need adapters, which just tells you what a FUCK UP it was not to include them on the laptop. It's not a small niche that need adapters, it's everybody. And if everybody needs these adapters, such that even backwards hardware stores are trying to cash in it... then the product is flawed for not having the ports.
QED
For every person like you that complains about the loss of the USB-A port there are a dozen people standing in line to buy a new MacBook Pro.
Which other apple laptop are they going to line up for? If you want even a half decently spec'd mac laptop there is only one to choose from. So you put up with its warts and flaws or you go without entirely.
Saying the "ENTIRE" market is somehow inconvenienced by this just does not show in Apple's sales results
You are looking in the wrong place. Remember that last-place-you'd-ever-look-hardware-store that you were giggling with delight at it carrying adapters?? That's your PROOF the entire market is inconvenienced. If it was just a small niche that needed adapters then they'd be special order or only carried in specialty shops.
Nobody wants adapters. They are a necessary but inconvenient reality. Except in this case, where there is no good reason for them being necessary. The laptop should have had the port built in.
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Will everyone still have USBA devices in 6 months or even 18 months? Yes. Next question.
You are correct. What you seem to miss is that this is a one time cost, just buy the cables and adapters needed to connect the existing devices and be done with it. You even said yourself it's not about the cost, it's about convenience. This adds convenience by not having to worry about which way is up on those stupid USB-A connectors any more. All it costs is $2 per cable to fix. If you are so absent minded that you keep losing your cables then you can pick up the cables and adapters at the same store
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What you seem to miss is that this is a one time cost,
Just like minidisplay port to hdmi, and my thunderbolt to ethernet, ... except now i have to buy a bunch of new dongles; and i'll need to buy multiples so I can leave one at home, one at work, and one in my bag -- in some vain attempt not to have to babysit them like an obsessive compulsive. And I'll still need all my old dongles floating around because i'll still have my old laptop.
This adds convenience by not having to worry about which way is up on those stupid USB-A connectors any more.
You know what would add convenience? Having a USBA port on the laptop itself. So don't try to sell be a bunch of bullshit abo
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The last time Apple used performance Nvidia parts they got screwed because they were all defective. See bumpgate.
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Maybe if they shouldn't make it so thin then?
Apple hasn't made a luggable with laughable battery time since the original Macintosh Portable. Live with it.
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My old macbook pro was almost perfect. The only real joke on it was the mini-displayport instead of a full size HDMI port. It had gigabit ethernet, it had an easily replacable battery, it had usb ports and with an SSD upgrade it got a nice performance boost.
My next macbook pro wasn't really progress -- it got thinner for no real reason -- the previous one was fine and I'd have preferred more battery and ram etc to "thinner". Plus it lost the gigabit port which was a real irritant, but it at least it picked
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Here ya go:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/pr... [amazon.com]
It probably would even run MacOS, or just run it in a VM if the hardware isn't compatible.
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Apple doesn't make design compromises to meet performance targets... apple just makes performance compromises until it fits into their design targets.
And Apple isn't necessarily wrong to do so, either. Speed isn't everything, otherwise we'd all be driving Ferraris.
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Dude this is a Pro not an iphone.
That GPU is 2009 performance so the brainwashing with Apple fans are strong with this one
Re: Comparison to Current GPUs? (Score:2)
An Nvidia 960M which is lower middle end from 2014 can kick it's butt easily. The Microsoft Surface Studio uses one. AMD does make a mobile version of its RX 480 which is in use with the Sony PS 4 pro which is like 5x faster. Not as battery efficient but insanely better performance that can scale easily to 5K for non gaming tasks and even game at 2K.
Hell the 450 can barely scale to 720P for gaming. Yes these are not gaming laptops yada yada but they offer a look at graphical performance.
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Here is my laptop with a 960m...
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/pr... [amazon.com]
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I've noticed that this is standard practice for Apple. Use a slightly customized part so that direct comparisons are impossible. They did it with the GPUs in the Mac Pro trash can, which were billed as pro Radeon cards but were actually crippled.
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the Radeon Pro 455 graphics chip in particular to be a "significant boost" over...the Nvidia GeForce GTX 650M, Nvidia GeForce GTX 750M, and AMD Radeon R9 M370X
I bet it is also a lot faster than the graphics on my 1980's BBC Model B too but that's not really a useful comparison is it?
Hey, I use a GTX 650M, you insensitive clod!
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So, your complaint is that they did a literal Apples-to-Apples comparison?
0x more RAM (Score:1, Flamebait)
so the new macbook pro (Score:3)
is a great gaming laptop?
maybe they need to rebrand..
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I thought computer gaming was a professional sport now.
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wtf slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
New dedicated graphics chips are faster than integrated ones and dedicated chips that are 4 and 3 generations older. What amazing news!
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Not just faster but "significantly" faster.
Still not impressed? Me neither.
I will say that a laptop that can drive two 5K displays and it's internal HD display, without additional hardware, is impressive. But then maybe I'm easily impressed and/or I'm just ignorant of how laptops have improved lately.
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I will say that a laptop that can drive two 5K displays and it's internal HD display, without additional hardware, is impressive. But then maybe I'm easily impressed and/or I'm just ignorant of how laptops have improved lately.
It's mostly a matter of priorities, each screen takes some circuitry and beyond three (for an external left/center/right setup) has been a tiny niche. They've had solutions for digital signage for a long time, they've just not put that in a laptop. It's one thing to display 2*5120x2880+2560x1600 = 33.5 MP if you just want light 2D graphics, but it's roughly the same MP as one 8K screen (7680x4320 = 33.1 MP) and even the heaviest discrete GFX cards work hard on 4K gaming. To drive 4x the pixels, I think even
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Simply driving those displays isn't that impressive, the question is how well can it drive them. If things get choppy as memory bandwidth becomes strained or the GPU has to keep swapping graphics in and out of its share of RAM, it will suck.
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Simply driving those displays isn't that impressive, the question is how well can it drive them.
I can agree to that somewhat. Getting a Thunderbolt to DP/HDMI/VGA/whatever adapter isn't all that different than getting one of those USB GPUs that are relatively common now. It's not just the hardware though, it's the software. I have to deal with multiple monitor computers all the time now that dual displays is increasingly the norm for people. I'll still have to deal with Windows computers that will "lose" one of the displays for some crazy reason or another, or "forget" that a display supports more
Not exactly a high bar to clear (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem stems from Apple's insistence on using a unibody aluminum chassis without any vent holes. That traps hot air inside (the superior heat-conducting properties of metal make no difference when there's an insulating layer of air between the hot components and the chassis). That makes the MBP designs extremely heat-constrained. They're already using special Intel quad core CPUs with a 25W TDP instead of the regular 45W TDP. And the GPU is limited to about a 35W TDP while other laptops use GPUs with up to a 120W TDP.
Re:Not exactly a high bar to clear (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not exactly a high bar to clear (Score:5, Interesting)
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I mostly agree with your point.
Except I believe laptops really should standardize on passive cooling and sealed enclosures. A vent is just begging to clog up with dust and pet hairs. What percentage of laptop users is capable of maintaining their fans, often by opening up ththe case? Quite few I'd imagine.
So compare a thermally constrained (by design) sealed laptop and a higher TDP laptop clogged up with crap. They're both operating at lowered speeds, but one is dangerous.
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Re:Not exactly a high bar to clear (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not about modern hardware, it's about hardware with a particular TDP. The engineering choices around the design and the weight/thermal/battery performance gave a certain wattage to be divvied up amongst the components. Maybe you don't like the particular tradeoffs they made, but that's not "bad design".
Those other laptops running Nvidia 10-series chipsets made different tradeoffs. Some are heavier (I saw some on Newegg for 5.5lbs, the MBP is 4.5lbs), some consume battery quicker or take longer to charge. They just picked different points along the power/performance/thermal tradeoff space.
You might as well say a sedan is not a good design because the transmission and tires cannot handle the torque from a sports car engine. Sure you could upgrade the transmission and the tires and the engine, but then you're just asking for a different car entirely.
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> But, this isn't a high end desktop replacement gaming laptop, is it?!
No, it's not. But what *is* it trying to be with that sort of mediocre graphics capability? Is it looking to appeal to the multi monitor crowd? If so, why buy a portable computer for that? Most people would go with a workstation for that type of use instead.
It just seems weird they're selling a more powerful GPU but not actually looking to target it to be useful for gaming, which is the market for most people who would drop extra
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The GTX 650M GTX 750M were both mid-tier laptop GPUs. MacBooks shipped with GT 750M not GTX 750M which is the lowest tier.
Re:Not exactly a high bar to clear (Score:4, Interesting)
The TDP limitations is not only due to heat issues, but also to maintain the battery levels.
Sure you can ran the hardware at a higher speed with more TDP / wats, but you will also drain the batteries way faster.
That is why you will never see one of the "gamer" laptops with better battery then 2 hours (which is nothing as those numbers are of average use).
Not defending the "technical" solutions of Apple, because i think they missed the mark with MBP this time.
The touch bar is a gymnick, and the hardware a bit sub-scale.
I will wait for better CPUs and faster memory / SSD combos... maybe next year?
The MacBook Pros never had any GTX graphics cards. (Score:2)
MacBook Pros always shipped with GT graphics cards not GTX. There is a huge difference in performance between the two. Think 1/2 the clock rate of the ALREADY Mobile GTX 750M
5 years (Score:1, Interesting)
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Even though Moore projected the rate of increased integrated circuit density he also projected it would have to end at some point. We've been seeing the rate of growth slow for some time so no one should be surprised if it ends now.
Apple replace GPU. You won't believe what happens (Score:4, Funny)
Newer, more powerful GPU offers superior performance compared to old ones!
More at 11.
Heat dissipation (Score:1)
Many people don't understand that apple sacrifices graphics performance for better battery life and cooler and more silent machines. MBP lovers don't care about GPU's. They care their MBP to run silent and not too hot.
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Question (Score:3)
Re: Question (Score:2)
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Or use a VM until the driver support is there. You may be able to set up a cross-compile environment of some sort too.
Re: Question (Score:2)
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I would spend the couple bucks on VMWare Fusion. VirtualBox under OSX works OK but VMWare Fusion seems to perform better, integrates nicer and seems to be more feature-complete and less buggy on the Mac side. I would also not stick with the 256GB SSD. You might want to order it with a bigger one or find a decent third party one if you are confident tearing apart a laptop.
Re: Question (Score:2)
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https://apple.slashdot.org/sto... [slashdot.org]
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Booooo..... dick move. Even my Macbook Air has a replaceable SSD and battery.
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$79.99 on VMWare's site. Compared to a lot of packages I've had to buy in the past it's pretty damn cheap. Take a look at VMWare ESXi licenses some time. If $79.99 is too expensive, why are you buying a $3000 boutique laptop? Small price to pay for pretty much the best virtualization environment in existence.
You can always use VirtualBox. VMWare is well worth the money though. Parallels is about the same price but FOSS OS support is a little weaker IIRC.
There's also this bay I've heard about, you migh
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It likely makes more sense to run Linux in a VirtualBox than dual booting.
Or in two, or three or as many VirtualBoxes you need.
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VMs cost about 1%-3% processor time overhead. In my opinion that is neglectible.
Android development (and likely all web stuff you want to do) you can do on Mac OS X as well. Makes no sense to run Eclipse in a VM to do Android stuff if you simply can run it under Mac OS X.
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No, you can do everything via keyboard on OS X.
Just exchange the ctrl key for the command key. 99% of the time it is even the sameckey binding. E.g. ctrl-F for find is cmd-F in OS X, obviously.
You can even remap ctrl to cmd and and vive versa. (System preferences)
However remapping the keys wont help you in a shell/Terminal.app as ctrl keys have a defined meaning in a terminal/shell.
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http://apple.stackexchange.com... [stackexchange.com]
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Perhaps because it is: cmd-shift-rightarrow and not ctrl-shift-end?
Unfortunately the POS1 and END keys on Macs don't do what they do on windows, one of the biggest flaws on Macs :-/
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Works perfectly for me.
Tested in Safari, XCode and TextEdit
However, I never use that because I'm always in Emacs and "ctrl+space" - "ctrl+e" is the business ;-)
Re: Question (Score:2)
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Displayport 1.2 limitation (Score:2)
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Multi-stream transport over Thunderbolt. Basicallly split the screen in half, so each stream is under the maximum bandwidth.
Each stream = 1 display.
But I'm having trouble believing this thing can do TWO 5k displays simultaneously at 60Hz. According to the review on Ars Technica, the first Thunderbolt controller has four lanes of PCIe, while the second Thunderbolt controller only has 2 lanes of PCIE 3.0 = 16Gbps max bandwidth.
4k @ 60Hz requires 14Gbps, and 5k at 60Hz is 80% more pixels, so around 25Gbps
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Chroma subsampling (4:2:2 or 4:2:0) and the realtime compression (DisplayPort 1.3 and up I believe) are ways they drive high res displays over a single cable @ 60 Hz. I'd sooner find out how many toothpicks I could fit in my urethra than drive a 5K display with subsampled chroma, however.
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Polaris parts support HDMI 2.0 and DisplayPort 1.4 with HDR.
I don't know what the MacBook Pro is passing things over, via how many ports, or what the monitor expects, but you can get a subset of a DisplayPort signal over the latest Thunderbolt / USB shit.
Bhahaha (Score:2)
Let me know know when it can do 1080P gaming from beyond 2010 Applefan boys!
What a joke as the 450 is about as bad as integrated graphics. They lost all credibility as I am sure it can not do anything that Apple says as they are so horrible and slower than the 2013 low end PS4/xbox graphics and they want to do 5k editing!!??
Why couldn't they updated the graphics. Shoot even the AMD Rx 460 the highest end one is easily beaten by a superior $80 Nvidia 1050 (non ti).
Yeah, and? (Score:2)
Considering it's a brand new machine, I would *expect* that the GPU would be better.
Also considering that the base model starts at three freaking grand, I expect that GPU to be even be able to play Crysis at max settings!
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Re:WTF is a "5K" display? (Score:5, Informative)
Apple has been selling machines with 5K displays for over two years now. Not sure how long LG and Dell (and others) have been selling 5K displays.. but this is definitely not an apple-only thing.
Anyway.. they're great if you want to be able to do things like edit 4K video at full resolution and still have room left over for your editing software GUI.
Re: WTF is a "5K" display? (Score:2)
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I have to say, my $2k 2014 home server blows the Mac pro out of the water...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/... [newegg.com]
But, I guess when people want a fashionable computer to fart around with, the Mac Pro fits the bill for approximately 2x the cost.
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You say that as if it is a bad thing. If the "standard" greeting is a kick to the balls then please forgive me if I ask that I be greeted with a "nonstandard" handshake, tip of the hat, or nod of the head.
Re:WTF is a "5K" display? (Score:5, Funny)
"5k display" refers to how much they cost.
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"5k display" refers to how much they cost.
Yeah. At least from Dell, that was about right. And then the iMac with 5k Display cost less than then the announced price from Dell just for the monitor with the same display.
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Usually a 5120x2880 pixel display.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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I would have recommended something from Plugable, as I did read about tb3 docks and tb3 to multiple display adapters though I wasn't really looking for them. I liked how they explained things, even recommending the USB-C to dual hdmi adapter over USB-C to dual displayport if you don't need the bandwith or if you need VGA. They explained in detail what the dual displayport version does better or doesn't do and I just liked the way they did, although perhaps they're simply concerned about customers buying the
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