Uber Is Treating Its Drivers As Sweated Labor, Says Report (theguardian.com) 436
Uber treats its drivers as Victorian-style "sweated labor", with some taking home less than the minimum wage, according to a report into its working conditions based on the testimony of dozens of drivers. From a report on The Guardian: Drivers at the taxi-hailing app company reported feeling forced to work extremely long hours, sometimes more than 70 a week, just to make a basic living, said Frank Field, the Labor MP and chair of the work and pensions committee. Field received testimony from 83 drivers who said they often took home significantly less than the "national living wage" after paying their running costs. The report says they described conditions that matched the Victorian definition of sweated labor: "when earnings were barely sufficient to sustain existence, hours of labor were such as to make lives of workers periods of ceaseless toil; and conditions were injurious to the health of workers and dangerous to the public."
"Feel forced?" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Feel forced?" (Score:5, Insightful)
Next step: pay Uber drivers more, so Uber has to charge more.
Eventual outcome: Uber costs just as much as a taxi, so you might as well call a taxi in the first place.
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pump n dump scam (Score:5, Interesting)
I think they know this, they are just a big pump n dump scam for early investors.
Re:"Feel forced?" (Score:5, Interesting)
And I'll still choose Uber over a Cab at, or even above, taxi prices. I've been using them since they called themselves "Ubercab", only offered the town car service, were only available in San Francisco, and were, yes, more expensive than a taxi.
Why? Because Uber drivers show up where and when they are dispatched. They will pick you up in the avenues (The Sunset and Richmond districts.), and don't throw a hissy fit when you need to be driven out there. They don't play the "my credit card reader is broken, cash only" scam. And their cars are clean, well-maintained, and don't stink of smoke, vomit or pee. None of the same is true of cabbies.
The only reason Uber, Lyft, and the like were able to catch on is because the legacy taxi companies offer an appallingly dismal service. They made their bed. Now they can lie in it. And I'll go on using the superior service; even if the price goes back up to what it was before they introduced UberX.
Re:"Feel forced?" (Score:4, Insightful)
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Would you eat at an unregulated restaurant if it meant you had a chance of getting food poisoning every time you ate there?
False analogy. We regulate restaurants because unregulated restaurants had a track record of making people sick. Health inspections of restaurants are designed to insure they are clean and healthy. The are NOT designed to restrict entry and limit competition. Comparing restaurant health inspections to the taxi medallion racket is absurd.
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Re:"Feel forced?" (Score:4, Informative)
There's certainly some of that, but all too much of it is rent-seeking, lack of modern technology, and hanging onto depreciated business models.
The insane price of NYC taxi medallions for example. Technology allowing drivers to rate passengers, therefore allowing expensive trouble passengers to be left without a lift. Technology allowing passengers to get prices and comparison shop rather than being locked-in to the rates of whichever taxi pulls up, and depending on the route they take. Better utilization by telling drivers where passengers are. Technology that forces passengers to pay without cab drivers needing to tackle cheats. etc.
I have no love for Uber / Lyft abusing their employees, skirting innumerable laws, and throwing money around to try and get themselves exemptions, but it's easy to make the case that the traditional taxi system was incredibly inefficient and rather corrupt, for no good reason.
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I'd rather protect a corrupt industry
False dilemma. Neither should be "protected". Both should be allowed to compete.
employs thousands of people
Many people use Uber regularly that rarely or never used taxis. So total employment goes up with Uber-like services.
rather then protect a single corrupt company
It is not a "single company". There is Uber, but also Lyft, and a few other smaller companies competing. There is little to stop additional companies from entering the market. I am mostly a Lyft user, but would be happy to switch to save $1 on a ride.
cares about benefiting no one but themselves.
How is that any different from any other company?
Re:"Feel forced?" (Score:4, Insightful)
Would you eat at an unregulated restaurant if it meant you had a chance of getting food poisoning every time you ate there? No one sat down and said they wantd to make taxis more expensive 'just because'. There are reasons for that extra cost that protect the public over time (both customers and non-customers).
Those reasons are all bullshit. Half of the taxis I have been in were falling apart, usually in ways that actually made them unsafe. I know two women who have been raped by taxi drivers. Taxis already refuse to pick up fares in bad neighborhoods, or just never bother to show up. (And if you tell dispatch where you're going, and it's a bad neighborhood, they will also frequently just never show up.) Taxis are shit and the excuses for taxi licensing are shit. If you want Uber to be as safe as a taxi, you're going to have to make it substantially less safe than it is today.
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Re:"Feel forced?" (Score:4, Informative)
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A virgin idiot, on the other hand...
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Re: "Feel forced?" (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you know how much gross shit you consume under the guise of an "A" rated restaurant?
I do, and that stuff happens even with the threat of a health inspector randomly showing up at any time. Imagine the shit that would go on if the regulations disappeared.
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Regulations on food places help to ensure the food is safe. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule but at least it is under control.
Regulations on drugs help to ensure the drugs are safe. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule but at least it is under control.
Regulations on flight help to ensure the flight is safe. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule but at least
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Car pooling isn't a full-time job!?!? (Score:2)
You mean to tell me that ride-sharing, aka car pooling, isn't a good full-time job!
Damn, now I'll have to switch jobs. I think my new job will be recycling my cans.
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Better they work at McDonalds than driver for Uber....
Says a man or woman (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the essence of modern American Slavery. Nobody's _ever_ forcing you. You're completely free to starve to death and die in the streets. It's why the South abandoned real slavery. Wage Slavery is ever so much more cost effective.
Re:Says a man or woman (Score:4, Interesting)
If the only options you see are being a wage slave or starving to death, then you haven't really tried. A location where the people are being paid slave wages or starving is ripe for a new company to set up shop and hire willing employees for less than they'd have to pay at well-established locations. As more of these people become employed and spend their wages on local merchants, the economy picks up. There are fewer unemployed, resulting in wages increasing. This is how the market equalizes geographic wage inequality. If this isn't happening, then there are fundamental problems with the region not caused by slave wages. Maybe the location is too far from markets, or the highway/railroad access is poor, or people just don't want to live in that location. Unless the government is intentionally keeping business out, low wages are a symptom not a cause.
And yes I've had a rent check bounce. A rent check a tenant gave me. I was stupid and deposited it directly into our payroll bank account since it almost exactly topped off the amount we needed to make payroll. Normally I transfer the payroll money from our primary checking account, but I was lazy and decided to save a little work by depositing the checks directly into payroll. As a result I got charged a bounced check fee, but more importantly a bunch of my employees' paychecks bounced, causing more bounced check fees for both them and myself. The whole thing was a disaster. I called in each employee who was affected, apologized to them in person, and told them to bring in their bank statement so I could reimburse their bounced check fee (or fees if they then wrote checks which bounced). The ones who needed the money immediately, I paid in cash out of my own pocket. All told it was over $1300 in bank fees incurred because I was stupid/lazy, and because the person who wrote the first check did so knowing he didn't have enough money to cover it but thought it would be easier turning his problem into my problem.
It's cliche, but it's true. Your employees are your most valuable asset. A good business will do everything it can to protect them and to retain them. A business which pays slave wages is just ripe to be squeezed out by a business which will pay better (fair) wages. The only way a slave wage business can stay in business is if the government is blocking competing businesses, or if people like you have so discouraged others with your gloom and doom hopeless corporate feudalism talk that they don't even bother trying to start up their own business to compete.
Re:Says a man or woman (Score:5, Insightful)
or lack of willpower by the employees to break out of slavery
Ah, it's the slaves fault that they're slaves, then.
If the only options you see are being a wage slave or starving to death, then you haven't really tried. A location where the people are being paid slave wages or starving is ripe for a new company to set up shop and hire willing employees for less than they'd have to pay at well-established locations.
Ah yes, it's so easy to set up a company when you're a wage slave and have no spare resources with which to set up the company. If you don't you just lack the willpower to starve to death for a few months or years before your company takes off.
Oh and if you don't have a head for business, you deserve to be a wage slave because fuck you that's why.
A business which pays slave wages is just ripe to be squeezed out by a business which will pay better (fair) wages.
Oh yes, that's precisely how things worked in Victorian England.
You know, or not.that they don't even bother trying to start up their own business to compete.
Starting a business is the highest form of intellect and worth. If you can't, then die in filth, scum. You deserve worse!
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Apparently Uber is the only hope these people have -- it's their savior. Otherwise they'd starve and die.
Wow, just... I mean, wow. (Score:5, Insightful)
Should a woman who gets beaten by her husband stick around because it's a "good economic move"? If you're answer is yes, then I suppose in that light, yeah, keep driving for Uber without complaint. Just ask your sugar daddy to buy you some nice sunglasses to cover up the bruises.
That's fine for lemonade (Score:5, Insightful)
No market is ever free. Money is power. The one who controls your access to food, water, shelter and health care controls _you_. You can either support democratic socialism, dream of joining the ruling elite (you're on
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That's only because we're not there yet (Score:2)
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GAWD!!!
You're completely free to starve to death and die in the streets.
STOP IT. nobody is dying because they can't drive for Uber. The real wage slavery is caused by government taking up to 50% of your earnings as a baron of the land, you stupid serf.
Taxes are what allows the government to pay for things like Infrastructure and Education. There is a reason why Corporations only move their assets to Tax Heaven countries and not the business, they are underdeveloped and unable to support businesses.
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For example:
Thousands have died after being found fit for work, DWP figures show | Society | The Guardian [theguardian.com]
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Re:"Feel forced?" (Score:4, Insightful)
Step 1: Create system where I make money doing nothing, we will call this being a platform Step 2: Force existing systems to work for me by under cutting prices and providing a better way to interact Step 3: Profit
Shit, Uber makes profit by undercutting cabs who already did not make much money... You can tell people not to drive for them, but when you see the lease terms uber demands (weekly payments, taken directly from your take, you dont pay we take the car) then you see that they are required to drive, and drive long hours if riders are minimal.
This is a firm that has a master plan of shifting as much as it can on to other people so its 30% cut can be 90% profit. So far its working because people with no job will work any job in a world where unskilled labor is not worth much (driving is definitely on the unskilled labor side here) There are simply not many other jobs out there for a subset of people.
Uber's real business [uber.com] (see bottom of page) model [xchangeleasing.com] is incentivizing wage-slavery with poverty wages and binding contract enforcement - it is just the vehicular version of the company town [wikipedia.org].
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It isn't anywhere close to being a "company town". They aren't requiring you to buy Shell gas, take your car to JiffyLube, tires by Toyo ....
GAWD STOP THE HYPERBOLE!
Next thing your gonna say is Uber is Racist and Sexist.
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It seems clear that Uber's long-term plan is to get rid of the drivers entirely. Self-driving cars are in our near future. Having humans drive them for now is a plan to achieve mindshare while they wait.
I wouldn't be surprised if Uber aims to become the Amazon of transportation.
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Getting rid of the drivers means they can't really externalize the cost of the car like they do now, especially fuel and maintenance. I would not be surprised in the least to see their fares go up substantially if this happens.
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It seems clear that Uber's long-term plan is to get rid of the drivers entirely. Self-driving cars are in our near future. Having humans drive them for now is a plan to achieve mindshare while they wait.
Getting rid of the drivers means they can't really externalize the cost of the car like they do now, especially fuel and maintenance. I would not be surprised in the least to see their fares go up substantially if this happens.
Who says Uber needs to own the cars? They can rent them from their owners or from car-rental companies.
Imagine taking your car to work and then instead of parking it, letting Uber "rent" it until you go home.
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Again, car rental firms already have this one tied up. If you're investing in Uber expecting this outcome, you're likely a sucker.
Car-rental firms don't have the smartphone-driven hailing infrastructure that Uber has. I can see car-rental companies becoming "fuilfillment partners" with Uber, again in analogy with Amazon and other retailers.
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Don't worry (Score:4, Insightful)
The Slashdot alt-right crew (really 75% of the commenting userbase that has aged into that lovely target demographic) will be here in no time to tell you about how this job, like fast food or retail, isn't deserving of a living wage and only exists for 18 year old suburban kids to make pocket money off of.
And to (lol) pay their way through college with (STEM majors only deserving of a living, of course).
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ROFL I took a couple minutes to edit my post and was proven right at least twice already by the time I clicked 'Submit'.
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Sad but true.
The US is going to be so screwed when more and more of the blue collar jobs inevitably disappear.
Re:Don't worry (Score:5, Insightful)
It will certainly be screwed if it keeps allowing corporate interests to arguing away the taxes they should be paying.
I'm genuinely concerned that events like Brexit and the Trump victory are the opening shots in some sort of modern day French revolution. The aristocrats of our age are as detached from reality as the French aristocrats were, and as unwilling to accept the responsibilities that come with vast accrual of wealth. They are creating a dangerously unstable situation, and when the Trumps of the world prove as incapable or unwilling to rebalance economic and social issues, then we may be facing a far less savory group of revolutionaries. And, as the French Revolution so ably demonstrated, even wealth isnt an absolute shield.
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The anti-establishment mood certainly feels dark enough.
Revolutions are rarely pretty neither for those revolting nor those on the top.
Re: Don't worry (Score:2)
Or, you know, people could just get paid what somebody thinks their labor is worth.
For example, would you want to pay somebody $30 an hour just to empty all of the trash cans where you work?
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Or, you know, people could just get paid what somebody thinks their labor is worth.
For example, would you want to pay somebody $30 an hour just to empty all of the trash cans where you work?
$15 would be a good start, indexed to inflation. ;-)
Those fighting for it would do well to mark 2016 and demand whatever $15 in 2016 dollars is each year this gets dragged out. Otherwise they are only going to get the equivalent of $10.75 by the time it passes, which will dwindle away every year re-creating the same problem for the next generation.
Why not? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not $30? Heck, why not $50? More is better, no? Don't you want workers to be well paid?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
Dick.
So, No? (Score:2)
So, you don't have a good argument why the minimum wage shouldn't be $30 an hour?
Why is $15 acceptable but $30 is not?
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Why not $30? Heck, why not $50? More is better, no? Don't you want workers to be well paid?
Because the higher it is, the stronger the negative consequences are. A minimum wage should be a minimum (it is IN the name), it should just be high enough to do its job, which is to ensure people can actually live off the wage.
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If raising the minimum wage to $15 speeds up automation, all it has done has hastened the end of these jobs. They were doomed, and likely doomed soon.
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Re: Don't worry (Score:4, Insightful)
A libertarianism and its "freedom to starve".
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You're way overthinking this as most of your expenses likely aren't even relevant to somebody on minimum wage.
Chances are you're dragging around a lot of crap that doesn't exactly need to be moved. If I was on minimum wage, I'd just sell all of my furniture on craigslist or in a yard sale, and then after moving go down to goodwill and buy new stuff for roughly the same price. Everything else can likely just be packed into the trunk of whatever car you're traveling to your new place in.
If your job is minimum
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I would like people who work hard not to starve in the process.
Re: Don't worry (Score:5, Insightful)
The key is to run a business that is profitable enough to pay its workers a wage sufficient to cover food and medical and housing. Otherwise, my tax money does it and those dollars essentially make the business owner a welfare recipient by enabling him to be artificially enriched.
If your business doesn't sell a product people are willing to spend enough for you pay your workers a living wage, then your business should go bankrupt. I'm not paying for your beach house.
Re: Don't worry (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly right. Far too many businesses, including big monster corporations like Walmart, essentially rely upon taxpayer-funded social safety nets to basically be their benefit and wage fallback system. They may claim they're paying what the market will bear, but what they're really doing is underwriting their own profits at the expense of taxpayers.
Re:Don't worry (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not so sure its about aging... I think its mostly that anyone else has given up on this place and moved on... arguing with Alt right or hyper libertarian or whatever the flavor of the month zealots are, its exhausting... and this place isn't important enough anymore to make it worth defending from idiots with poorly formed world views who can't see past the end of their own noses.
There are a few old timers still around... like me they tend to post less an less and just ignore the cesspool that this place has become out of a sense of nostalgia.
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For what it's worth (Score:3)
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You guys are embarassing my old-school Slashdot cred with your user numbers.
But I stand by my point somewhat. I mean considering I made this account when I was 18 in 1999, unless you were 10 year old Slashdot wunderkids, we're all getting into old-man (or woman) territory.
And there were plenty of 30-50 year old brilliant engineers and developers posting here at that time who are in prime FYGM political territory at this point.
You're kinda trolling (Score:5, Insightful)
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The problem being that modern conservatism has evolved into a reality-denying screed that is purely short term reactionaryism.
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I would say it's more like: Congratulations! You thought you could undercut the professional taxi industry like a Chinese laborer. Well guess what....you're getting paid like a Chinese laborer. What, did you think you could have your cake and eat it too?
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I'm not right-wing at all, but I was wondering what all the hubbub was about here. As far as I know, Uber didn't even exist just a few years ago. Furthermore they billed themselves as a "ride-sharing" company, which to mean means you'd be a lunatic to quit your day job and drive for uber full time. Presumably those driving for uber did something else not so long ago for their primary income.
But if your sentiment is that Uber should be treated as any other taxi company, I agree with you there. And stories
Re:Don't worry (Score:5, Insightful)
So any source of income must guarantee a living wage?
If you spend *seventy* hours a week doing it, then yeah it better damn well have.
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And if the job can't, then that business isn't viable and should be shut down.
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Typical Silicon Valley Startup. (Score:2)
Drivers at the taxi-hailing app company reported feeling forced to work extremely long hours, sometimes more than 70 a week, just to make a basic living ...
Sounds like a typical Silicon Valley startup to me.
Wait what? (Score:2)
Re:Wait what? (Score:4, Interesting)
Uber needs a recession (Score:5, Insightful)
The Uber business model only works for newly laid off workers who have a nice car with car payments to make. Its not meant to be a fulltime job. The entire gig economy including iOS apps only took off as in 2008 a lot of people lost their jobs but they still had cars, computers and loads of time on their hand. As we closer to full employment people who have a choice have moved away from gigs. Taxi companies are built upon the exploitation of illegal immigrant drivers. Uber as a high visibility company cannot compete with Taxi companies as it cant hire illegal immigrants and pay them sweat wages under the table. At the same time driving a cab will not support a minimum wage so the best thing for Uber would be to go back to being a gig company. Put a hard cap of 10 hours a week on driving for a driver - that will remove the entire pool of drivers expecting to make a living from Uber, stop promoting Uber driving as a full time job and stop giving leases to drivers to buy cars to drive for Uber. Stop trying to grow for growth's sake. Stay at the size of a gig economy company like a temp agency. They have some good software - license it to taxi companies and let them use it for managing their own fleets in a mutli-tenant kind of model.
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> Stop trying to grow for growth's sake.
If they do this, Lyft and local services will step into the niche they leave empty.
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The Uber business model only works for newly laid off workers who have a nice car with car payments to make. Its not meant to be a fulltime job. The entire gig economy including iOS apps only took off as in 2008 a lot of people lost their jobs but they still had cars, computers and loads of time on their hand. As we closer to full employment people who have a choice have moved away from gigs. Taxi companies are built upon the exploitation of illegal immigrant drivers. Uber as a high visibility company cannot compete with Taxi companies as it cant hire illegal immigrants and pay them sweat wages under the table. At the same time driving a cab will not support a minimum wage so the best thing for Uber would be to go back to being a gig company. Put a hard cap of 10 hours a week on driving for a driver - that will remove the entire pool of drivers expecting to make a living from Uber, stop promoting Uber driving as a full time job and stop giving leases to drivers to buy cars to drive for Uber. Stop trying to grow for growth's sake. Stay at the size of a gig economy company like a temp agency. They have some good software - license it to taxi companies and let them use it for managing their own fleets in a mutli-tenant kind of model.
19% of Uber drivers are full-time (35 hours per week and more.) and (51%) of Uber drivers work 15 hours a week. Only 12 states issue driving licenses to illegal immigrants, a Taxi company would never hire people without licenses as they wouldn't be covered by insurance and they would be legally liable for any damage the Unlicensed driver does. Do some basic searches before posting something full of inaccuracies and speculation
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There are many ways to be illegal - you may be in the country legally but work illegally. Tourists on B1 as well as Students on F1 are entitled to get licenses and drive cars. Many students moonlight as cab drivers. Similarly refugees awaiting work permits moonlight as cab driver. Its one of the few jobs you can do without a US based credential as long as you know how to drive.
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Irrelevant. That's kind of like saying "Yes, I am breaking the law, but I was only borrowing, not stealing it. I fully intend to give the bread back after I eat it." It's still illegal, and making that argument makes you look like an fascist claiming its not a 'real job', it's just something I pay them for working for me.
There is no "I don't expect my employees to earn a living from the amount I pay them" exception. There are exceptions for family, charity, and internships (and a few stupid ones for fa
Rigged market (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation:
Now, why on earth would sellers stay on a market this shitty? Bandwagon effect. Other competing exchanges don't have the liquidity. Why people use Microsoft products? Bandwagon effect. Once you get something shitty going, it can keep going on its momentum alone.
That the exchange can dictate price levels really is a problem because it creates race-to-the-bottom pressures - negative feedback loop - drivers can't go to competing markets which treat em better, because their cheap labor keeps those alternative companies out of the business (and even if those adopt similiarly shitty business practices, they end up being no better than uber). Thus the accusations of entrapment.
If Uber wants to be merely a clearing house for car hailing settlements that's fine, but people should call it out on their attempts to corner the market in order to keep their first mover monopoly.
Welcome to the business world... (Score:2)
Those who have taken on debt to finance their vehicles feel trapped and have little choice but to work unsafe hours to service their loans and feed their families, it says.
This is where you learn to figure out what your costs are vs. your revenues, and then see if you make a decent living. Doing so AFTER you've already gone into debt for your business model is always a bad idea. Also, wasn't the point of Uber that you could use your existing car that was just sitting around doing nothing? Why would you finance a vehicle?
Report? (Score:2)
Why do we need a report for this? This was known from start. Anyone who thought otherwise has to be either blind or completely disconnected with reality. If you got into the service thinking you'd have the same conditions of a regular stable job, you were conned. Get out. Things won't get better. Uber drivers who are putting their livelihoods in stake for the company only have themselves and their ignorance to blame for. I'm sorry, but it's the f*cking true. In this case, I have absolutely no sympathy. Wake
Eat Cake! [Re:The joy of contracting: don't do it (Score:5, Funny)
Are you by chance related to Marie Antoinette?
Mixed Metaphors (Score:2)
Antoinette's expression is in reference the tyranny of feudalism.
Pretty sure Uber drivers aren't indentured servants, much less serfs. Seeing as how, you know, if you don't want to drive for Uber, you just don't load the app. The Gendarme isn't going to break down your door and drag you to jail.
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It also apparently wasn't Marie Antoinette who said it. She was actually quite sensitive to the distress of the poor, and the beginning of the French Revolution libeled her frequently for being foreign, not for anything she actually did wrong.
She was a fascinating woman, I can quite understand why the French king felt attracted to her.
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Stopping a revolution is considered loyalty to an existing nation and the country of which she was Queen. The revolution led directly to famine, from destruction of the economy, and genocide during the Reign of Terror. So yes, I'd say that Marie Antoinette's political behavior was "not doing anything wrong".
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Antoinette's expression is in reference the tyranny of feudalism.
Pretty sure Uber drivers aren't indentured servants, much less serfs. Seeing as how, you know, if you don't want to drive for Uber, you just don't load the app. The Gendarme isn't going to break down your door and drag you to jail.
The expression "Let them eat cake" shows a complete lack of understanding that the absence of basic food staples was due to poverty rather than a lack of supply. Serfdom was officially abolished in France in 1789 by Antoinette's husband Louis XVI, although this was mostly a formality as there were few if any actual Serfs left in France. Most people were "free peasents" that were paid extremely low wages to work the lands of the King and Nobility FYI: Even thou the expression "Let them eat cake" is commonly
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Au contre mon cheri (Score:2)
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Part time employees?
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> I don't think Uber ever meant its drivers to be full time employees.
Uber absolutely does not wish to take on the fiscal and legal responsibilities that full time employees cause for employers.
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Even brilliant people can find themselves out of work, and become prey for pretty predatory companies happy to take advantage of them. I've worked in the employment industry for many years and see even some pretty highly skilled people stuck in shit-ass jobs because they can't afford to move.
That is why most jurisdictions have it least some basic level of worker protection, and why no one seriously contemplates turning the industrialized world into a Libertarian fantasy land.
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I know people who aren't very bright and can't get *any* job no matter how hard they try