Microsoft Exec Admits They 'Went Too Far' With Aggressive Windows 10 Updates (softpedia.com) 254
It's no secret that Microsoft has been aggressively pushing Windows 10 to users. Over the past year and a half, we have seen users complain about Windows 10 automatically getting downloaded to their computer, and in some cases, getting installed on its own as well. The automatic download irked many users who were on limited or slow data plans, or didn't want to spend gigabytes of data on Windows 10. A company executive has admitted for the first time that they may have went overboard with Windows 10 updates. From a report on Softpedia: Chris Capossela, Chief Marketing Officer at Microsoft, said in the latest edition of the Windows Weekly that this was the moment when the company indeed went too far, pointing out that the two weeks between the moment when users started complaining about the unexpected behavior and the one when a patch was released were "very painful." "We know we want people to be running Windows 10 from a security perspective, but finding the right balance where you're not stepping over the line of being too aggressive is something we tried and for a lot of the year I think we got it right, but there was one particular moment in particular where, you know, the red X in the dialog box which typically means you cancel didn't mean cancel," he said. "And within a couple of hours of that hitting the world, with the listening systems we have we knew that we had gone too far and then, of course, it takes some time to roll out the update that changes that behavior. And those two weeks were pretty painful and clearly a lowlight for us. We learned a lot from it obviously."
Read between the lines (Score:5, Funny)
And within a couple of hours of that hitting the world, with the listening systems we have we knew that we had gone too far
Did those "listening systems" include computers with freshly installed without permission Windows 10 sending home recordings of their owners going "What the hell is this shit? I didn't agree to this!"?
Re:Read between the lines (Score:4, Interesting)
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Did those "listening systems" include computers with freshly installed without permission Windows 10 sending home recordings of their owners going "What the hell is this shit? I didn't agree to this!"?
Probably? With everything else Win10 does I'd be very surprised if they don't report back that users did a rollback to the OS they had before. If it's immediately as you're asked to agree to the Win10 EULA it's a pretty strong sign the customer just went WTF what is this, I don't want it.
Weasels' self-serving, damage-limiting "apology" (Score:5, Insightful)
In reality, they'd been aggressively pushing Windows 10 for months on end by that point (from late 2015 until the "offer" ended in mid-2016) repeatedly trying to override users' explicit wishes against that, to the extent of using techniques that even bland, MOR IT publications were comparing to malware.
Now they're trying to minimise peoples' memories of the incident to the maliciously-designed "close button" semantics? Not even close. That was merely the peak of the obnoxiousness. They repeatedly and consistently maintained this behaviour for several months- they knew exactly what they were doing.
And they know exactly what they're doing with this self-serving, PR-approved "apology" that doesn't begin to cover what actually happened.
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And within a couple of hours of that hitting the world, with the listening systems we have we knew that we had gone too far
Did those "listening systems" include computers with freshly installed without permission Windows 10 sending home recordings of their owners going "What the hell is this shit? I didn't agree to this!"?
Dear Cortana, I didn't want to upgrade to Windows 10. Please take me back to Windows 7 and then leave
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Yeah ok (Score:5, Insightful)
Better to ask for forgiveness than permission I guess
Re:Yeah ok (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Yeah ok (Score:5, Interesting)
As someone who knows three people who were Windows-10'd against their will, telling them to waste x hundred hours of time trying to get compensation for the dozen hours (or $200) it took for them or someone else to undo the damage seems a little... counterproductive.
However, when we passed a Microsoft store advertising the Windows 10 upgrade, I did have to stop my wife (one of the victims) from barging in there and giving the staff a piece of her mind.
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However, when we passed a Microsoft store advertising the Windows 10 upgrade, I did have to stop my wife (one of the victims) from barging in there and giving the staff a piece of her mind.
Why? Give the Microsoft staff grief. It's their job to funnel it upwards.
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Hundreds of hours? Don't you have small claims court where you live?
In the UK, all you do is send an invoice with a deadline. They ignore it, you send another with a note that court is next. They ignore it, you pay 30 quid for the court. Chances are they pay up at this point, but if not you just take a couple of hours off work and tell the judge what happened, and win.
EAFP (Score:2)
Hey, if EAFP [python.org] worked for Guido van Rossum and his Python Software Foundation, it can work for Microsoft.
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If they would have implemented like Guido then no problem. But their try and except methods were identical.
try:
install_windows10()
except FuckThatError:
carry_on_with_win7()
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Translation (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation: We want everyone to be running Windows 10 from a we-now-control-every-aspect-of-your-(our)-computer perspective. We can't actually force updates on other versions, but we'll do our level best to force the version on you that we can do that with. We regret the negative publicity that the lengths we went to to make this happen caused.
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Obviously, the exec made a mistake: When he said "security" he actually meant "more money for us"
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Re:Translation (Score:5, Insightful)
or get down and dirty with the FOSS hobos
This part is funny, because my hobo shit provides such a cleaner, higher quality service. Like the snobs are eating grass because the poor people got access to lettuce. The worst thing that my software vendor could do to me would be to abandon me, and not provide new features. Compare that to what the windows people who had bought an OS as a product and didn't want a service, what did they get?
And this story is about that one time where they lied in a bunch of different ways to take control of their customers' computers. So that's the whole point; they don't control every aspect. But sometimes they try to.
Nothing to do with Security (Score:3)
Breaking proprietor's power needs political will (Score:2)
The power of a software proprietor won't be deterred by a few lawsuits or fines. You read it in Microsoft's response, their "listening systems" tell them things, things their users can't help but divulge as long as they are running Microsoft's software. This is what proprietors do because they control the software their users run and their users (no matter how long they've run the software, no matter how well they keep up with what configuration options are available) are no match for source code kept hidde
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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It is only final until the next new top manager decides to monetize Windows in a different way. Give it 3-4 years, and they'll be back to 'normal' releases.
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Re:Nothing to do with Security (Score:5, Interesting)
You missed something important: They don't have to do it again. Windows 10 is the final version of Windows.
Yes, this was one nail for the coffin.
With more and more business and office applications going online, or locally hosted instead of locally installed, the OS lock-in becomes less and less. If PC vendors and Google got their shit together, this could indeed be the final version of Windows, and new PCs have a business friendly offshoot of Android or other OS. Not that anything Android-based would be an improvement for privacy, but it wouldn't be Windows.
I think it's coming, but I think it will take a few more years.
Yeahhhhhhh.... (Score:3)
Yeah, if only you guys had had some kind of organizational history to draw upon that could have provided some insight into the effects of releasing monolithic patches touching all parts of the operating system, without testing, and without machine owner approval.
ROFL (Score:2, Insightful)
"We know we want people to be running Windows 10 from a security perspective"
Correction: "We know we want people to be running Windows 10 from a data collection perspective"
This guy doesn't regret pushing the updates -- what he regrets is causing a tidal wave of tech support issues.
Not quite (Score:5, Insightful)
No, he meant what he said by "...want people to be running Windows 10 from a security perspective".
But although he implied that he meant "from the end user's computer security perspective", actually he means "from a Microsoft's future financial security perspective".
Which does include data harvesting, as you point out. But also Win10 is the path to the OS on a subscription model.
What's next? (Score:2)
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Apple is guilty of similar stuff as well (Score:3)
I am running El Capitan on my Macbook pro, yet sitting in the Applications folder is a 4.78 GB installer for macOS Sierra that I never authorized to download.
Re:Apple is guilty of similar stuff as well (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure you authorized it. When you clicked on those 10 page EULAs sometime in the past, you most certainly allowed Apple to do what they did.
It's all your fault.
Re:Apple is guilty of similar stuff as well (Score:5, Informative)
Cool story bro..
You should submit a slashdot article about that.
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Only Apple doesn't force updates unless you select that option. The same with iOS.
I've even made Flash updates manual only.
Amazing. You'd think asking users to update was standard behavior.
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My iPhone with iOS 9.x.y has the installer for 10.x.y taking up 1.2 GB on my 16GB device. If I delete it, it'll just re-download it next time there's another update. My device is perpetually low on room and it'll do things like delete downloaded game files to make room when it downloads, so I just leave it sitting there, taking up 10% of the entire usable space on my phone.
Not that I'm bitter about it or anything...
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Here is the core problem... (Score:5, Insightful)
To be successful a company should NEVER let 'what they want' get in the way of 'what the customer wants'. It is pretty simple but when a company gets way too powerful in their position this sort of crap happens.
Re:Here is the core problem... (Score:4, Interesting)
The core of the problem is capitalism. Microsoft needs to maintain a certain level of sales to keep their profit margins. Since an operating system is really something that does NOT need to be replaced every year (let's face it, there's no reason windows XP needed to be replaced--or at least not with an equally buggy pile of shit code), the only solution is planned obsolescence. By refusing to properly address security issues in the core of the operating system, Microsoft has only to stop supporting the older releases to scare everyone into updating. It is the danger of a combined overreaching IP system, that extends copyright way too far, and abusive monopoly powers.
If Windows XP was out of copyright, you can bet that an entire industry would spring up right now to patch and maintain it, and it would be extremely profitable. This is yet another great example of where reduced copyright terms would drive innovation.
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How so? Apple the most valuable company in the world does exactly that.
You just need to be courageous.
You Never Got it Right (Score:4, Insightful)
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Ya think ? (Score:3)
Even if all the major bugs get worked out of Win10 (say, SP2-3 or so), I really don't expect Win10 to EVER lose the taint that Microsoft's deployment of it, in the eyes of all too many of its' customers.
I mean, you KNOW it's bad, when your non-techie wife asks about Linux, after an uncommanded Win10 install (and rollback) left her gaming--and-graphics box messed up until I could restore it from the image file I had made a month prior. . .
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Or how about the glitch that broke dhcp. 99.9% of users don't know how to manually set an IP address. Or which ones would work.
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This is a new trend (Score:3)
No They Didn't (Score:3, Interesting)
They got close to a billion users to upgrade and have their computing environment be monetized with marginal cost to the company and they acted too quickly for the FTC or whomever to do anything about it.
They did this just right. If you're Microsoft, of course.
The 2% of people who switched to Mac and and 0.5% of people who switched to FLOSS desktops are totally acceptable costs.
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> They got close to a billion users to upgrade
No they did not. Originally, Microsoft predicted a billion devices by mid-2018, but they have extended the time for that number to be reached. That number was not just PCs but also included phones and IoT. Phones have now died off completely and IoT is not going Microsoft's way.
The current number of Windows 10 active machines is claimed to be around 450 million. The number of new PCs and laptops sold with Windows 10 already installed since release accounts fo
Dear Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
Fuck off you liars.
Still too far (Score:5, Interesting)
I really like Windows 10 aside from their automatic updates, data collection, and ads in my start menu. They all get disabled in the end but it's kind of a pain in the ass because Microsoft doesn't want me to do so. At least they can't stop my router from denying access to network services ^_^
Re:Still too far (Score:5, Informative)
YES, Microsoft is still going "too far". Any "feature" that can't be turned off is not a feature, it's a bug, and forced updates and forced reboots are worse than that, because Microsoft is deliberately not allowing me to have control over my own PC. I've used every version of Windows since version 3.11, but the forced reboots in Windows 10 infuriate me so much that I have already moved several of my machines over to Linux, and plan to migrate all of them away from Windows over the next year. For me, forced reboots have were the last straw that broke the camel's back. Moving forward, I'm moving to Linux.
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I find PC gaming much better than console gaming but this whole thing makes me want to buy a PS4.
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All of those options can be disabled, have you even tried? Disable the Windows update service, disable suggestions on your start menu, and disable the data collection options...
I did most of that within the first 5 minutes of installing Windows 10. Windows update I didn't realize would run automatically until one day my computer wouldn't boot (my boot HDD had been dying, I just didn't realize since I never rebooted the machine and all of my apps are on the other drives.) Once I got the computer back up I fo
Typical.. (Score:2)
When your software uses whack-a-mole strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
The more things change... (Score:5, Interesting)
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How did you find out the fix, and how long did it take you to find the fix?
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How did you find out the fix, and how long did it take you to find the fix?
I spent several months looking for a solution. Windows 10 identified my SSD as a USB device, which didn't make sense as it booted from SATA. When I remembered that I cloned the HDD to SSD via a USB adapter, I figured it was a registry setting and searched for USB-related registry settings. One of the KB articles for "Windows to Go" is posted below.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2778881 [microsoft.com]
I disagree! (Score:2)
I think Microsoft hasn't gone far enough with shoving Win10 onto all their users. I mean, there are still people willing to put up with Microsoft, so their job isn't done yet. Their "Switch to Linux" program has done plenty to piss some people off but they haven't pissed off all of their users enough that they are willing to jump ship. ;)
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I dont know why they churn so much data at boot, but they do.
I think on HDD's the problem is masked by the i/o being mostly sequential. USB thumb drives however have an order-of-magnitude worse read and write speeds, with only their random access speeds being at all competitive with HDD's.
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I will know they are seriously sorry when.... (Score:2)
Windows 10 patching is still to aggressive today (Score:5, Informative)
Just yesterday, My gaming machine, the only windows install left in the house, came in with an ominous warning as I was playing a game: It said it had downloaded an update, and that it would restart in 20 minutes, whether I wanted it or not. No installing at night, or tomorrow, or anything. Imagine if instead of playing a game, I was giving a talk.
This is the kind of shit that makes people not use windows for work.
How about not auto-restarting my computer? (Score:5, Insightful)
This Christmas, would you please send me and all of us Windows 10 users the gift of NOT AUTOMATICALLY RESTARTING MY FUCKING COMPUTER WHEN YOU UPDATE BECAUSE I WALKED AWAY FROM IT FOR TWO MINUTES AFTER "WORKING HOURS"? I have lost my open browser tabs and other work so many times now that you are destroying the user experience of millions of people, including me. And no, work hours for people like myself who consult are completely random and I'm not about to change them manually every time I need to change my hours or they extend beyond a limit you assume is mine.
Best Regards,
StandardCell
Re:How about not auto-restarting my computer? (Score:4, Insightful)
I am a developer, but I work almost exclusively in Linux. I do have to test on Windows, but it is not my primary environment by any stretch.
That said, I am really curious how developers handle this sort of thing with the automatic reboots and forced updates. To me, the biggest thing is that as a developer I feel like configuration control is a big thing. If I decide to update my development or build systems, I have to make absolutely certain that I know what versions of libraries (including core OS components) I am using before and after the upgrade so that if something mysteriously breaks, I can figure out the origin of the breakage and revert the update/change. On Linux this is nearly trivial. It sounds like that is now impossible with Windows 10. I don't know how a developer would be able to work under those conditions without losing his or her mind.
Also, what do people in safety critical fields do? I mean if you are one of those fields using Windows (which I understand from colleagues that there are an alarming number of such fields, like industrial process control, satellite operations, aerospace/aviation, etc.), do you just throw up your hands and give up to being stuck on some outdated platform?
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Organizations that need detailed configuration control can shell out for Windows 10 Enterprise.
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Small businesses can use Windows 10 Pro, which supports the slower-moving "Current Branch for Business" release track. Or small businesses can develop on and for X11/Linux.
If distributing software designed for Windows to the public is a requirement, how does this "solo freelance developer" obtain an EV code signing certificate in the first place? You need one to ship drivers on Windows, or to ship applications on Windows without running a risk of SmartScreen blocking execution of your application because it
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It's very simple. I reboot my PC at the end of my day after updates are installed and it tells me it needs a reboot. The machine complains for two days before automatically rebooting, I'm not sure why people complain they aren't given any notice. The change is that it's limited to two days now, rather than allowing the machine to run for months on end without a reboot.
The only time I'm affecting in the middle of the day is if I need to install something, and it complains that it can't perform the install
Windows 10 would be great if... (Score:2, Interesting)
it looked and worked the same as Windows 7. No weird splash pop-ups. No Cortana, no bin of broken-dependency plugins which somehow cause the whole system to be unstable. After months of fighting with Windows 10 (common refrain in my house "Oh my gawd, why is this taking so LONG!"), and some of my forum-sourced tweaks at trying to speed things up (to just even a reasonable speed, I had given up hoping it would be as fast and reliable as Ubuntu), the thing was so broken I had to re-install ... Windows 7.
It
No spoiler tags! (Score:2)
Last week Windows Weekly left us with a cliffhanger tease about a special surprise guest.
Well... guess I know who that is now.
Actually, I kid, I don't really care. I just thought it was funny that WW (not an often cited podcast) would be featured on /.
I'll say (Score:4, Interesting)
I actually consider Windows 10 to be completely flawed due to its forced and frequent update scheme.
I often only boot up my Windows PC every week or two. Invariably, there will be updates to process. What this means is that just about every boot takes multiple minutes to complete.
I consider an operating system that takes many minutes to start up in the year 2016 when using a fast SSD drive, to be fundamentally flawed.
Additionally, there have been times when I have left a long-running boot up and had the operating system force-reboot my system for updates while I was in the middle of actively using it.
That is 100% unacceptable. Even if by design, I consider it to be intrinsically flawed as an operating system.
These issues are so onerous to me that they lead me to hate Windows 10 with a white-hot passion. The only reason I am using it is because I have to for my VR PC ...
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Agree totally here, I have a laptop I use infrequently (every few weeks), and it seems to have to deal with this as well. This part of it really sucks. For my PC that runs it every day, it's been great though.
Fuck Microsoft. (Score:3)
Up the ass. With a big stick. With lots of thorns.
Bullshit (Score:2)
"...We learned a lot from it obviously."
They learned nothing from it. They don't give a fuck about their users, and they've proved it so many times that I've lost count.
"but there was one particular moment in particular where, you know, the red X in the dialog box which typically means you cancel didn't mean cancel,"
Bullshit. There had to be dozens and dozens of people involved in the decision to implement that UI-breaking "feature", if not a hundred or more.
The fact that all of them signed off on it tells
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> They learned nothing from it. They don't give a fuck about their users, and they've proved it so many times that I've lost count.
They probably learned they could alienate their users THAT much without much trouble. This is amazing to me. I would not have bet a lot on their "success" down that path... It's almost like people think it _has_ to be thay way and there is nothing to do against, no matter how much it sucks.
Ok, cofee pause, my win10 laptop reboots for a security update...
MS is out of fashion (Score:2)
In the Trump Era you don't admit to mistakes.
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Get real. Almost all politicians are slimy. You don't get anywhere in politics being honest. I'm not condoning it, only saying that it's part of our existing system for good or bad.
Non technical people will begin to look elsewhere (Score:2)
Yesterday my neighbour came in and said his computer is not working - I discovered later it was win10, looked like it had the dhcp bug covered in /. and some update had restored the default screen. It was slow even on a brand new two month old hp shop bought laptop with installed help (trash)
I run linux so i had an enjoyable hour looking through win 10, eventually it connected and synced his email via the wndows crapware.
I genuinely felt sorry for them that MS and there partners had screwed up the most idi
Why bother apologizing? (Score:2)
Day One in MBA 101 (Score:2)
Too little, too late. (Score:3)
.
imo, Microsoft knew exactly what they were doing all along with the forced march to Windows 10, up to and including execs blogging about how sorry they are.
And today when it comes to Windows 10... (Score:2)
I just reset two Lenovo laptops for my work (they were the bosses kids old laptops), and I actually wouldn't mind loading W10 on them, and now it's no longer coming up as an option...d'oh.
Sneaky Microsoft (Score:2)
The bully from Calvin and Hobbes designed this (Score:3)
"Yes means no and no means yes. Do you want me to hit you?"
Perfect solution!! (Score:2)
I upgraded to LINUX years ago... it was the perfect solution. Everyone should try it !! :D
"We learned a lot from it obviously" - WTF? (Score:3)
The only 'obvious' thing here is that you shouldn't lie to, trick, and deceive your customers. Why you had to 'learn' this is not obvious at all; in fact, it would be a total fucking mystery if not for the fact that Microsoft has demonstrably corrupt and psychopathic leadership. This 'we learned our lesson' shit just doesn't fly - all you've learned is that you need to be less heavy-handed if you want to continue to screw people over without suffering a massive backlash from your customers and getting bitch-slapped in the tech press.
Took my son's graphics card off line (Score:2)
A Windows 10 update removed ALL of the graphics drivers for my son's GTX-1080. This despite trying to block them as much as possible.
Fortunately it was a small matter for the tech-savvy kid to reinstall them, and if not, I could have managed, but imaging if we had been clueless consumers spending significant cash on a gaming PC, that Microsoft now "broke".
I think the next time it happens I will send them a bill for our time: I consult at $350 an he at $175 an hour.
Re: They will never learn (Score:5, Insightful)
When the Marketing Team is louder than the engineers, mostly.
Re: They will never learn (Score:5, Interesting)
"They will never learn when the CORRUPT CEO IS STILL RUNNING THE COMPANY." Under Gates and Ballmer, MS may have screwed over potential competitors, but with Satya Nadella, they are screwing over the customers. Forcing a spyware loaded, system breaking, auto update "upgrade" on unsuspecting customers is straight up evil and they should be prosecuted for false advertising (abuse of common knowledge of what an update is and/or systems that were reviewed and labeled Windows 10 ready when they werent) and or vandalism (damaging/modifying another's property without their consent; you could have a street artist paint a beautiful mural on the front of your building, but it is still vandalism if he didn't have your permission). And don't give me that BS about giving windows update permission: users gave windows update permission to update their OS, not replace it with a new, different OS that behaved differently, had a different set of utilities and much lower level of privacy and control. MS customers want Nadella gone as a first step in the right direction.
Of course the worst example of that. (Score:2)
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Re: They will never learn (Score:2)
Microsoft engineers are just as brainwashed as their marketing team.
Re:They will never learn (Score:5, Insightful)
How can an entire team of engineers be so foolish?
When will we stop blaming management decisions on engineers? Do you really think engineers are in charge at Microsoft?
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Everyone is responsible for their job. Those engineers can refuse to do unethical things, but they choose not to because they value the money that management waves in front of them more than the wellbeing of their fellow man.
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Those engineers can refuse to do unethical things, but they choose not to because they value the money that management waves in front of them more than the wellbeing of their fellow man.
You're not talking about murder or espionage. You're talking about day-to-day business. Things that are entirely legal. The "unethical" thing is going to get done regardless of protest.
There is little point in resigning over such a matter---and a huge personal impact, especially if the employee is responsible for children or aging parents.
Blaming the programmers is a load of crap. It can take a year or two to realize that your company has changed and to line up a decent job.
Microsoft management could have d
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Re:They will never learn (Score:5, Insightful)
Easy, engineers are morons. They don't think about what PEOPLE need or want
You obviously aren't an engineer. Nor do you know many. Most engineers don't decide the features and performance requirements of the product. Either management or the customer does.
So the people writing the specs are morons. If someone gives you a recipe for a turd sandwich, you're going to make them a turd sandwich---or else you'll get fired for not doing your job.
Maybe you can ask them if they want lettuce or tomato on their turd sandwich. Maybe you can tell them that they have to choose between toasted and untoasted bread (because it's impossible to have both). But, in the end, if the spec is a turd sandwich then that's what you deliver.
I'm sure any programmer with an ounce of sense realized the implications of automatic updates and always-on telemetry. And most of them would never put that crap into the spec if they had any say in the matter. But they don't get a say. So enjoy your turd sandwich.
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Easy, engineers are morons. They don't think about what PEOPLE need or want
You obviously aren't an engineer. Nor do you know many. Most engineers don't decide the features and performance requirements of the product. Either management or the customer does.
So the people writing the specs are morons. If someone gives you a recipe for a turd sandwich, you're going to make them a turd sandwich---or else you'll get fired for not doing your job.
Maybe you can ask them if they want lettuce or tomato on their turd sandwich. Maybe you can tell them that they have to choose between toasted and untoasted bread (because it's impossible to have both). But, in the end, if the spec is a turd sandwich then that's what you deliver.
I'm sure any programmer with an ounce of sense realized the implications of automatic updates and always-on telemetry. And most of them would never put that crap into the spec if they had any say in the matter. But they don't get a say. So enjoy your turd sandwich.
I don't know about you but I ordered a Giant Douche and instead got this Turd Sandwich... I'm outraged!