Fed Up Indian IT Professionals Want To Be Able To Leave Their Jobs Sooner (mashable.com) 114
An anonymous reader shares a report: India's major IT firms have long required their employees to give a three-month, "non-negotiable" notice before leaving the company, but they could be soon forced to change that. Fed-up IT professionals from across India have reached out to the government, complaining that it is "unrealistic" for anyone to plan that far ahead. Over 28,000 professionals have signed a petition, addressed to the ministry of labor, to take immediate action on the matter. Part of the problem is that many companies are unwilling to wait for three months to have a person join them, many cited in the report say. Some of India's top IT firms including Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys, Tech Mahindra, HCL, Accenture and IBM impose the three-month notice period policy on their employees.
So what else is new? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Surprisingly not always, at my most recent job we got 2 months notices, but our last day int he office was a week later. We still got several weeks severance on top of that. Legally they had to give us notice since several hundred employees were laid off, but it was more generous than legally required. The exact team actually leaked a memo that our group was being shut down 2 month earlier, I guess that would count as 4 months notice.
But in general, yes, most companies will not give you notice and ask you t
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I doubt the large outsourcing firms would want to keep someone on after they give three months of notice. It would be far too embarrassing for them to have you accidentally make a "mistake" during that period (if you don't want to be there, the chance of you not paying attention to what you're doing goes up). Better to let them leave without (accidentally) destroying the contract.
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Fire and blacklist you so that new job you got will not hire you when they are told you didn't stay the 3 months.
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Fire and blacklist you so that new job you got will not hire you
Except there is no "blacklist", nor is there some back channel of communications between hiring managers at different companies. That is a myth.
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There definitely is a blacklist, it is even in plain sight on the WorkDay system as a checkbox "eligible for re-hire" and many companies actually abide by the blacklist they have. As for back channels, I have witnessed more than one candidate being turned down because the back channel feedback was negative, even if it was feedback from years old interaction with the candidate. Your reputation is important for your career in the long term, especially when you move up the ladder.
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Wouldn't that just lead to some enterprising company hiring "blacklisted" candidates at reduced salaries? Knowing a candidate will not get hired at companies X Y and Z, then company A can make an offer for 75% of the actual salary.
I think you're right, it's a market after all. Worst case, the employee will just wait it out a little longer and keep looking, for perhaps four months until someone really wants the skills he has and offers the standard market rate.
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I can confirm this on both points.
My former employer maintains a blacklist and a very dark grey list. I am on the latter, which means an executive VP or high can still auth my hire (very unlikely), while on the former list you are *never* working there again, all the way to the point of if a company you work for gets bought by them, you're fired on the spot.
I have witnessed said terminations.
There is also a clear back channel communication as it is possible to as a referrals rehire status from some former
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I can confirm this on both points.
My former employer maintains a blacklist and a very dark grey list. I am on the latter, which means an executive VP or high can still auth my hire (very unlikely), while on the former list you are *never* working there again, all the way to the point of if a company you work for gets bought by them, you're fired on the spot.
I have witnessed said terminations.
There is also a clear back channel communication as it is possible to as a referrals rehire status from some former employers, if they say anything but "yes" or "we don't release that information" then it's a negative and you will not be hired. My former employer may or may not release said information depending on who and how you ask.
Isn't this getting rather close to a cartel?
Re: Easy solution. (Score:2)
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Well, you'd be in breach of contract so there are remedies available.
At a minimum they can demand that you don't work anywhere else during that period.
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no, as long as government continues to suck the cock of big business and give them anything they want, the abuse will continue.
it appears that ONLY police and similar 'brothers' are allowed to form unions. for authority figured, unions are ok. for us, unions are bad.
(is your head spinning yet?)
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That explains a lot.. (Score:4, Informative)
Indian ITers: "unrealistic" for anyone to plan that far ahead."
No wonder their software is even worse than what we in the west call spaghetti code, without any detectable design.
Re:That explains a lot.. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is worse for many H1-B workers here in the US from major consultancies.
They sign on to 12 or 18 month commitments with penalties of thousands of dollars per month for early termination. They also can't begin work until they've provided a bond to cover this penalty. Their contracts also include provisions for binding arbitration, no class action lawsuits, a requirement to notify the employer before any legal action, and a gag clause so they can't talk about it.
Combine this with consultancy blacklisting and "Indentured Servitude" is absolutely correct.
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I mean...except for the bonded termination clause that sounds pretty much like the job I have today in corporate america.
Re: That explains a lot.. (Score:2)
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Three month notice periods are common for experienced staff in the UK, and senior managers frequently get six or twelve month notice periods - although the latter is often in the form of a twelve month rolling contract.
That means anybody hiring knows they will have to wait 1-3 months from offer to start date, and I've never seen it be an issue. If you need someone faster than that just get a contractor in to cover.
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Yeah, I gave one company five months. Another had four months.
The last one my contract said three months and I negotiated with them and left in six weeks, but that's because the hiring company was impatient.
28k in a country of 1.25 billion (Score:5, Insightful)
So in my country of 5 million this would be... ~112 signatories. Three months is standard here in Norway, sure sometime you'd like to jump ship straight away. But on the flip side it's three months instead of two weeks if they want to get rid of you too and that means a lot when it comes to unexpectedly applying for a new job. My opinion? If your company doesn't know if they need your skills three months from now they're running a cowboy shop where you can just as easily find yourself out the door as you got in the door. It won't be that much fun when you're on the short end of that stick.
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Good part of this is when companies want to do RIF they will give the person 3 months notice and then ask them not to come to office. They still get their salary while they are totally free to job search. Many get a job within a month , take 2 months vacation and join the new place. If the company wants to reduce headcount immediately they give 3 months salary in cash. (While this does not save money directly sometimes companies need to hire in a certain skill but hiring is on freeze till the bench of folks
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Wha happens if an employee just stops showing up for work on their own? I assume they will be fired. Does this still need a three month cooling off period?
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Re: 28k in a country of 1.25 billion (Score:2)
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Wha happens if an employee just stops showing up for work on their own? I assume they will be fired. Does this still need a three month cooling off period?
There's still "avskjedigelse" which would be instant termination for cause, but most of that would be criminal conduct like embezzlement, information theft, violence or threats. Gross disloyal conduct, showing up drunk or high or not showing up at all could also be reasons, but general tardiness or poor work performance will generally not be enough. You can still get laid off, but that's a much longer process with warnings where you'll be on notice that termination may follow if you don't improve. And you
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In Poland in such case you would get disciplinary firing - it goes on an employment certificate which you are expected to show your next employer (you can avoid it, but it would be very suspicious). This is only true for standard work contracts. Other types of contracts are often used to limit costs and avoid regulations related to work contracts.
Regardless of employment type your former employer can also sue you for losses and lost income caused by your sudden departure
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it goes on an employment certificate which you are expected to show your next employer
damn! they have you by the short hairs, don't they?
sounds quite the nanny state.
as bad as the US has been getting, we're not that bad yet. no friggin way I'd give power to any previous employer to control my working life and really, my destiny, like that.
that's fucked up! how did that happen? do you need a dr's note if you call in sick, too? (I know, some countries do require that, which is also very non-trusting and
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GP didn't say it was legally required, only that it would be very suspicious not to show an employment certificate. I'd expect something like this to be more of an industry standard than a law.
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A mandatory three-month notice will lead to a standard unwillingness to contract three months out, because by negotiating shorter lead times than this the company will be at a strong advantage in salary negotiation: they know that the applicant is currently on their notice period, or already unemployed, and have no option of staying with their current employer.
This works on those who naïvely apply to only one company at a time, which is most of the "goody two-shoes starts at the bottom level" crowd.
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indentured servitude (Score:2)
Wait, so they cannot leave? Sounds like indentured servitude to me.
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Re: indentured servitude (Score:1)
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There is nothing enforcing it in India as well other than the fact that the employee will not get references. He/she will forfeit bonds (these are generally on fresh graduates whom the companies train for 6 months in classrooms in return for 2 year bonds as many Indian colleges dont produce work ready engineers). Also as a hiring manager if I see people with less than 1 year at a company I want a good explanation and if I dont get one we move on. Hiring takes up too much time and effort to hire someone who
Re: Wait what? (Score:4, Informative)
In your world, maybe. Here in Switzerland, 3 months notice is the norm, and six or twelve is not unheard of for more senior roles.
Sure, you could just not show up. But it's breach of contract, makes you inelligble for unemployment benefits, and would result in a bad reference letter, making it harder to get future jobs as well. Oh, and the company would likely take you to court and claim damages.
That said, it is viewed primarily as being in the employee's favor, as the company must respect the same notice period when firing you for anything other than gross misconduct. It often enough results in an employee being given 3 months garden leave (getting paid while at home) after termination. Even if not, the employer is legally obligated to give you a reasonable amount of time (e.g. 1/2 or perhaps 1 day per week) to interview for new roles.
All in all, it's a nice system, at least as implemented out here.
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Don't give them ideas.
A weak argument for American Employment-At-Will (Score:2)
You or your employer can part ways at any time for any reason. The rest of employment-at-will tilts the playing field to the employer. IMHO, the employment-at-will laws are in need of serious reform to restore a level playing field in the US.
Rule enforced in USA also by these companies (Score:3, Interesting)
Am in USA working for one of these companies. I have 3 months notice back in India and in USA also. If I quit and join another company in US without giving 3 months notice, I have to pay $10000. If I dont, its deducted from my gratuity in India.
Added to that, they give my name to a debt collection agency with some non enforceable contract details. It might not affect my credit history, but is a major hazzle to deal with the debt collection agency.
That $10000 is a major decision point in switching job and is the reason why am a slave to this company.
BTW, its an Indian subsidiary of an American international company. Not even a proper Indian corporation.
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This is why Americans are generally negative towards foreign tech workers. Not only are you a slave, you raise expectations for everyone else.
"Why won't you work 100 hours a week for spare change like our slave? I think we'll just replace you with a slave, and you have to train them to get any severance."
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Because they were trained *wrongly* on purpose?
I've seen that several times.
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you guys are very clearly abused. its sad that its that way.
perhaps you need to consider a revolution in your country. fix your own society, first, THEN come here once your own problems are sorted out.
good luck.
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So what's the big deal? Bail out and get a much higher paying job. I was stiffed about 20K years ago. The company refused to pay. Goods, services, housing, food, etc, all of that was supposed to be covered. I don't see 10K as much of a problem at all.
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Some guy is called in a meeting, he goes there nonchalantly not knowing what is going to happen, then he has to give back his badge/key and is escorted by security outside the building. Some people were not even allowed to say "bye" to their coworker.
It works like this in North America.
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I'm in Canada, and I have seen people being escorted out of work in less than 30 minutes.
Some guy is called in a meeting, he goes there nonchalantly not knowing what is going to happen, then he has to give back his badge/key and is escorted by security outside the building. Some people were not even allowed to say "bye" to their coworker.
It works like this in North America.
When I've seen this happen in the US, although the employee is kicked out, he still gets paid for some length of time. (Usually at least 2 weeks, often a bit more, depending on the circumstances.) I have no idea what the law states. I suspect pay could be stopped immediately, but the company is trying to be nice, figuring that the employee would be less likely to start a legal battle. (Even if an employee is terminated for valid reasons, a legal fight could hurt the company.)
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The reason they gets paid after they've been let go is because checks are typically withheld for a period of time when they start work. You don't get paid until you've been on the job for some amount of time (typically two weeks, but can be as much as a month).
They are getting the money back for the time that they already worked before they were fired. Severance packages exist, but aren't typical or required for non-managerial positions.
Money that the company DOES have to pay is unemployment insurance. If
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I'm in Canada, and I have seen people being escorted out of work in less than 30 minutes.
Some guy is called in a meeting, he goes there nonchalantly not knowing what is going to happen, then he has to give back his badge/key and is escorted by security outside the building. Some people were not even allowed to say "bye" to their coworker.
It works like this in North America.
Last time that happened to me(laid off, not fired), I got 2 weeks severance and 6 weeks accumulated PTO paid out.
Found a new job in about a month and got 13 months of income that year.
Re: What is their time when they are fired? (Score:2)
This is completely unrelated to severance time and happens in Europe just as well because trendy managers love to copy American bad habits.
garden leave (Score:2)
My last company required a 3 month notice period. When I found a new job I negotiated a start date 90 days in the future and gave my notice. Then the company I gave notice to felt that they no longer wanted me working on any "sensitive" projects so that put me on "garden leave".
Then they realized they were wasting money and couldn't hire a replacement until I left, that's when they asked me if I would consider leaving earlier...
If it is a commonplace requirement in India then hiring companies will understa
I dont beleive it. (Score:2)
I'm sure that if you really wanted to go quickly, you could easily find a way.
For example if you gave in your notice then just started turning up way late or not at all etc, or worse, became anti-productive, they would let you go or fire you ASAP just to get you out the way.
Feed Up? (Score:2)
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their country is fucked and everyone knows it.
they jump ship, come here, becomes virtual slaves and while they still have it better than being back home, this abandonment of their home country is NOT HELPING the home country improve.
all they are doing is bringing their problems here.
H1B Visa (Score:1)
What keeps people from just leaving? (Score:3)
Some of India's top IT firms ... impose the three-month notice period policy on their employees.
When I don't want to work for a company any more, I don't continue to follow its policies for three months just because they tell me to. What are the consequences for not complying, and what is enabling these companies to impose those consequences?
What happens if you don't give notice? (Score:3)
What happens if you don't give notice?
Do they fire you?
Do they sue you for the money they would have given you?
Do they sue you for the value you would have added and they didn't pay you for yet?
Do they write an angry letter to your mother?
In all seriousness, what is the "or else" in these case?
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If I understand correctly, in India it's more or less illegal to have more than one job at a time. So, they have this thing called a 'relieving letter', which your old company gives you on the way out the door. You need this in order to become legally employed at your next company. (My understanding is that this law is intended to make as many people as possible employed by preventing one person from taking up two jobs. I've no idea if it's really working or not, and as in every culture, there's surely lots
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Re: send them back (Score:1)
Its amazing that a cow dung seller from India could do the job of an American IT consultant!!!