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Google Businesses The Courts

Google Hit With Gender Pay Discrimination Lawsuit (axios.com) 244

An anonymous reader shares a report: Three female former Google employees have filed a lawsuit against the search giant alleging gender-based pay discrimination, as the Associated Press reported. The former employees, Kelly Ellis, Holly Pease and Kelli Wisuri, all left the company after being put on career paths within the company that they say would pay them less than their male counterparts.
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Google Hit With Gender Pay Discrimination Lawsuit

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  • I shed no tears... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sinij ( 911942 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:48PM (#55197365)
    It will be absolutely hilarious to watch Google defend against this in courts. After all, we all got the memo that victim-blaming and perpetuating gender stereotypes goes against Google's core values.

    /popcorn
    • by Anonymous Coward

      Wasn't it Audi who did the so-called Gender pay gap thing in an advert? When called on their own pay gap, they explained that it was due to gender differences in the types of jobs preferred? Well, that's the gender pay gap in a nutshell.

      I look forward to Google reaping the consequences of hiring rainbow haired SJWs. The revolution always devours her children.

      • by lucm ( 889690 )

        Google reaping the consequences of hiring rainbow haired SJWs.

        "We never saw it coming!"
            - The company with the biggest databases and most advanced data processing algorithms in history

      • When called on their own pay gap, they explained that it was due to gender differences in the types of jobs preferred? Well, that's the gender pay gap in a nutshell.

        No, not unless the company is doing something to discourage women from this role. You can't say "I want to be paid the same as a top engineer, but I don't like the sound of that job so I'd like to do something of my choosing instead". Gender pay gap comes down to either barriers or discouragement tom people entering high-paid roles based on gender, or people performing identical roles just as well but with pay differences based on gender

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:49PM (#55197375)

    Why don't these chicks just identify as male if they want higher salaries? Problem solved.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Totally. They should identify as gay men who get the payiest pay of them all.

    • by lucm ( 889690 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @07:13PM (#55199691)

      Why don't these chicks just identify as male if they want higher salaries? Problem solved.

      Only men-born men get higher salaries. Womyn-born men lose on all fronts because they miss out on both cisgender privilege and systemic paternalistic privilege, while being victims of industry-wide sexism and unsafespaceness.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:52PM (#55197409)

    Here's the actual source from the Washington Post [washingtonpost.com] rather than some blog or whatever the source cited in the summary is.

  • Enjoy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tailhook ( 98486 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:54PM (#55197427)

    Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of grievance mongers.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 14, 2017 @01:58PM (#55197473)

    Google is infamously left-wing. That's the *reason* they're being sued. It sounds counter-intuitive, but it's true. Hear me out.

    I work at Google. You'll find no real sexism here. What you will find is unending leftist propaganda. There's a weekly microaggression newsletter, even. The constant drumbeat is "You are a victim! You are being oppressed! The world is arrayed against everyone except white men!"

    Now, when you put a normal well adjusted person in this environment, he or she starts to believe the propaganda and attribute any adverse circumstances to his or her identity group, not to his or her individual abilities and choices. The non-stop social justice narrative teaches people to see everything as a social justice grievance.

    So is it any wonder that some women at Google started to really believe that they were being oppressed and sued? You reap what you sow.

    • wish i had mod points
    • And the sad thing is, James Damore warned them this would happen; that to retain women, you need to pay them 26% more to cover the extra time off. And then he was fired for perpetuating gender stereotypes.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Reality check: when you don't play by the rules, you get kicked out.

        "Speak the truth" is NOT one of the rules. "Pay lip service to the company line" very much IS one of the rules. Most adults of average intelligence know this.

        You want to stand up for what you believe is right? Be prepared to suffer the consequences.

        Dem's the rules.

        • Yes, I was just pointing out that in this case, the rules are going to cost Google a ton of money. AS PREDICTED.

          If I wanted to build a futurism think tank on the blind spots of feminism, James Damore would be a top must hire.

    • by computational super ( 740265 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:18PM (#55198221)
      That's the fundamental problem with the SJW ideology - it's never enough. You could kill every white man alive, and the SJW's would still be unsatisfied.
      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        I'm gonna link this post next time someone calls me an SJW.

      • Thats how would-be-totalitarians become actual totalitarians.

        They demand and demand and you give a little and a little more and when you have finally had enough bullshit, when you will start taking instead of giving, they stop demanding. When enough of the people in power have changed hands that things are well below the tipping point again, these fucks start demanding again.

        As the iteration progresses, the more volatile the region of the tipping point becomes, and the harder it is to keep from going ov
        • See what happens. It wont be fucking pretty.

          And, a bit ironically, I'm sure that the people who will end up bearing the brunt of what happens will be the people that the SJW's adore.

      • The problem was the foot-in-the-door tactics by early SJWs. People gave them a bit of leeway by adopting some small parts of their agenda. Then they started demanding more and more, because they thought that others have finally "seen the light". Similar to kids they need to be shown that there are limits to what they can get by crying wolf all the time, if they want to live in a world of grown-ups and social peace and cooperation. Then again maybe they don't want peace in the first place.

        We should have stop

      • You could try, but SJWs will start a white lives matter movement.

    • Exactly. The entitled eventually end up eating themselves.

  • it was inevitable (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:15PM (#55197623)

    Once Google denied that their gender gap could possibly be caused by any non-discriminatory factors, all you are left with is discrimination.

    This is only the beginning. Class-action suits will soon follow and the statements of top Google executives in response to the Damore memo have painted Google into a corner.

    To echo other posters, couldn't happen to a nicer company.

  • by iampiti ( 1059688 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:21PM (#55197693)
    I, and probably no one outside of Google, know the details of these cases but, can you really hope to succeed in making a class action suit with just three cases?
    Also, they "were put in a career path that paid less than those of males?". Maybe they weren't good enough for the higher paying paths.
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Their case seems to rely on proving that there is systemic bias. Others Google will just say that they sucked. So there will likely be lots of examination of the systems at Google for managing employees, particularly the technical/non-technical tracks.

      If they can prove that then it could apply to a lot of female employees.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:22PM (#55197717)

    The former employees, Kelly Ellis, Holly Pease and Kelli Wisuri, all left the company after being put on career paths within the company that they say would pay them less than their male counterparts.

    Let me get this straight. They aren't suing because they were being paid less, they're suing because in the future they might've been paid less?

  • There are so many variables that go into determining comp packages... performance reviews and aggregate internal statistics (e.g., male vs. female comp) are easily discoverable, but they are just two data points among many. For example, I read an article written by a female television news reporter who discussed her first job out of college. She discovered that her male peer with same credentials, role, etc. was making a few thousand dollar more per year. She opted to ask her boss about the discrepancy,
  • by Derekloffin ( 741455 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:30PM (#55197791)
    At one time I might have put up a defense for them, but not anymore. Far too much BS coming out of Google these days, and they good and cleanly shot themselves in both their feet with the Memo fiasco.
  • Kelly Ellis (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:49PM (#55197995)

    Name sounds familiar. Oh yeah, She claimed she was sexually harassed [businessinsider.com] two years ago. Obviously, nothing came of it, so she moved on to the next feminist myth.

    Note to anyone hiring: Do not hire people who put "Patriarchy Smashing" on their list of skills on LinkedIn. Or this will happen to you!

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) <mojo@@@world3...net> on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:53PM (#55198463) Homepage Journal

      Nothing came of it?

      https://www.gizmodo.com.au/201... [gizmodo.com.au]

    • claimed she was sexually harasssed.

      she moved on to next feminist myth

      Your position is that sexual harassment is a myth?

      Whenever these topics come up, the part of the Slashdot discussion that I find most irritating is the logical jump from "some gender pay gap and sexual harassment statistics are misleading if taken at face value" to "any woman who claims she was sexually harassed or passed up for a promotion because of her gender is wrong and a liar." It seems to happen every time.

      The first can lead to an interesting discussion about gender and it's effect on the tech workp

      • by stdarg ( 456557 )

        Whenever these topics come up, the part of the Slashdot discussion that I find most irritating is the logical jump from "some gender pay gap and sexual harassment statistics are misleading if taken at face value" to "any woman who claims she was sexually harassed or passed up for a promotion because of her gender is wrong and a liar." It seems to happen every time.

        The first can lead to an interesting discussion about gender and it's effect on the tech workplace.

        No, it can't. It leads to a discussion where you're derided as an MRA, a sexist, a white supremacist (since in this country, didn't you know, white supremacy is linked with support of the patriarchy), and so forth.

        The second is just ignorant prejudice.

        It's a realization that the aforementioned response is more successful. It's lowering yourself to the common denominator because the common denominator is what appeals to the audience. It's actually exactly what SJW's say as well... you don't debate Nazis, you punch them. Well SJW's are Nazis, the

  • So many lawsuits (Score:4, Informative)

    by BrookHarty ( 9119 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @02:53PM (#55198035) Homepage Journal

    So many lawsuits, class action on age discrimination, class action on sex discrimination for women, soon a class action on sex discrimination from men fired by James and people he's contacting, multiple lawsuits for interfering with businesses on videos, advertising, search engine ranking in the EU, etc.

    It's almost like instead of focusing on business, Googles views are causing all these lawsuits. Crazy how that karma comes back.

  • ORLY? (Score:4, Informative)

    by mark-t ( 151149 ) <(markt) (at) (nerdflat.com)> on Thursday September 14, 2017 @03:00PM (#55198085) Journal

    Gender or minority-based pay discrimination can be identified by answering just one simple question: are there any jobs in the company or organization that are performed both by people across the relevant demographics being compared with approximately the same level of experience where there is a difference in rate of pay? If yes, then there is discrimination. If not, then you cannot infer that there is any. Even when the jobs that pay the most are dominated by whiite males, for example, you cannot reasonably infer pay discrimination based upon that statistic because there can be a multitude of factors which can impact which people even both to apply for certain types of jobs, and which are entirely outside of the company's ability to control. The only thing you can reasonably expect a company to do is to pay its employees ethically and fairly for the work that they do, and this pay should be reflective only of the demands that the work places upon an individual. Trying to get companies to fix sociological and societal problems that might cause people of mostly one gender to apply only for certain types of positions in the first place cannot reasonably be expected to be a company's responsibility to mitigate. That responsibility falls on all of us... not to give women or minorities more incentive to apply for such jobs, but to not give them any disincentive to do so.

    • Re:ORLY? (Score:5, Informative)

      by malkavian ( 9512 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @04:24PM (#55198669)

      "The Economist" did an article on this. The end result from it (in the UK anyway) was that the gender pay gap was a fraction of a percentage point in a like for like. Inside a given company, with the same responsibilities and title, women earned the same as men. Women in a company tended to go for the lower paid, more hourly flexible positions, which is what dragged the average down. This is from the statistics gathered by a consultancy (Korn Ferry) with about 25 million sample points. That's reasonably robust.
      The UK as a 0.8% difference in post from men to women for exactly the same role.
      Oddly, the cries around this are suddenly that women must be given equal shares in the board rooms and at higher management. It doesn't say whether skills and choices lean that direction or not, simply that this must be made so.
      You're absolutely right as far as I can see that people must be given every chance to shine, irrespective of gender, colour, or whatever. If they can do the jobs well, that's what counts.
       

      • If men and women are equally compensated for the same work, there still can be gender discrimination, if men are favored for the higher-paying jobs, or if (the opposite side of the coin) primarily male-dominated jobs are arbitrarily paid more than primarily female-dominated jobs. Both of these used to be commonplace. There's still lots of people around who grew up when the man was expected to support the family and women were assumed to only work for extras, and didn't need to be paid as much. These thi

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      What about discrimination that limits opportunity? The lawsuit alleges that opportunities to advance and get better paid positions were denied to female employees. As such they ended up in lower paid positions, unable at advance as fast as similarly or better qualified males.

      That wouldn't show up if you simply compared people doing the same jobs. You would need to look at their performance and career path within the company.

      • by mark-t ( 151149 )

        The lawsuit alleges that opportunities to advance and get better paid positions were denied to female employees.

        Key word there... "alleges". The biggest problem with this particular allegation is that, like most conspiracy theories, it is not falsifiable... and utilizes the fallacy of cherry-picking to make its argument, as well as falling for the fallacy of perception itself caused by pareidolia.

      • You would need to look at their performance and career path within the company.

        That's pretty much what I'd do in this case, too.

        I guess everyone here has noticed that some people get promoted faster than others, for various reasons. Sometimes it's playing favorites, but usually it has more to do with someone's performance and ability.

        And somehow I can't help but wonder if that's the reason here, too.

    • Gender or minority-based pay discrimination can be identified by answering just one simple question: are there any jobs in the company or organization that are performed both by people across the relevant demographics being compared with approximately the same level of experience where there is a difference in rate of pay? If yes, then there is discrimination. If not, then you cannot infer that there is any. Even when the jobs that pay the most are dominated by whiite males, for example, you cannot reasonably infer pay discrimination based upon that statistic because there can be a multitude of factors which can impact which people even both to apply for certain types of jobs, and which are entirely outside of the company's ability to control. The only thing you can reasonably expect a company to do is to pay its employees ethically and fairly for the work that they do, and this pay should be reflective only of the demands that the work places upon an individual. Trying to get companies to fix sociological and societal problems that might cause people of mostly one gender to apply only for certain types of positions in the first place cannot reasonably be expected to be a company's responsibility to mitigate. That responsibility falls on all of us... not to give women or minorities more incentive to apply for such jobs, but to not give them any disincentive to do so.

      This. Always this.

      I know I've been discriminated by race, and I've seen people throw away unread resumes of people they knew they were black (I've seen it with my fucking eyes.)

      With that said, all accusations must come with evidence, and all defenses must come with evidence. And this question above, that is the only way to legitimize or invalidate a discrimination claim.

      • by jezwel ( 2451108 )

        I know I've been discriminated by race, and I've seen people throw away unread resumes of people they knew they were black (I've seen it with my fucking eyes.)

        I'm sure I've seen an article about how your name affects your job prospects. Have something innocuous like Scott or Jacke or Jane or Mary and there's no thought put into that area. Have something like Darnell or Tyrone or Shaneequa or Neveah and your resume is tossed before they get to your skill set.
        Oh here's one:
        http://abcnews.go.com/2020/top... [go.com]

  • by Theovon ( 109752 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @06:28PM (#55199473)

    In the CS department where I work, we admit generally equal numbers of males and females. They are admitted because they have excellent SAT and GPAs and other assessment scores. By time they are senior, women are in the minority.

    Why? Self selection bias. The CS program is tough. The less capable males are trained to be confident so they are more likely to stick around. Females are more self critical, so the less capable ones are more likely to change majors.

    The result is that only the top notch females stick around to graduate. When I taught machine learning I got only juniors, seniors, and grad students. My TA and I quickly realized that we didn't need to bother writing answer keys in advance. We'd just take the answers from these three girls (two domestic, one from china), check them for correctness, and pick the best for each one. These gave us exemplary answers that were used to judge what would get maximum points.

    Compared to them, the top males produced answers that were no less correct. But these girls especially wrote answers that were more concise, clearer, and easier to evaluate.

    Teaching other topics to grads and undergrads, I've generally seen similar patterns. Teaching computer architecture, my best student was a girl in more than one semester, and the girls tended to work harder, with the majority of them in the top half of the class. And once again, I saw similar patterns among engineers while I worked in industry.

    I work at a good school but there are lots of higher ranked schools. Google should be careful hiring me into a management, because if a female engineer graduated from a decent school I'm going to assume she is like the ones I have taught first hand and not be prepared to think less unless I see undeniable poor performance that can't be explained by things beyond her control. Most of the males are also amazing I'm sure but my experiences have taught me that less capable ones manage to graduate and get hired, so each one would have to prove himself to me individually before I'm willing to take some of the same risks with their work assignments.

    If you want to bitch and moan about how women get an unfair disadvantage or advantage, all of y'all can kiss my ass unless you have had years of experience managing and teaching. Everyone else is by definition speaking from ignorance.

    • by stdarg ( 456557 )

      Dude are you actually being serious? You say you are consciously biased towards women, and your evidence is that in your classes, which you teach, in which you are consciously biased towards women, you rate them higher? That's funny, but also sad and you should be fired for A) being sexist and B) clearly failing to grasp logic which makes you kind of unsuitable for teaching CS.

      • by Theovon ( 109752 )

        Wow. Not good on the reading comprehension, eh? I'm biased towards them as a *result* of all the experiences I've had. I just described some of those experiences. Or are you going to back-pedal and then make some comment about "correlation not being causation"?

        Consider the three girls in my machine learning class whose answers were *consistently* superior, and my TA (who was also male) and I both agreed about this. It's not like we just blindly accepted their answers. We always checked them. They we

  • by rtfa0987 ( 1260014 ) on Thursday September 14, 2017 @07:14PM (#55199697)
    http://altshulerberzon.com/wp-... [altshulerberzon.com]

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