Facebook, Twitter and Google Berated by Senators on Russia (bbc.com) 176
From a BBC report: Russian operatives, likely working from St Petersburg, provoked angry Americans to take to the streets, a US Senate committee heard on Wednesday. The May 2016 protest, arranged by a group named Heart of Texas, was one example of Kremlin-backed efforts to destabilise the American electoral process. Lawyers for three technology companies -- Facebook, Twitter and Google -- were told they were grossly underestimating the scale of the problem. "You just don't get it," said California Senator Dianne Feinstein. "What we're talking about is a cataclysmic change. What we're talking about is the beginning of cyber-warfare." She added: "We are not going to go away, gentlemen. This is a very big deal." [...] Several senators suggested that more hearings and consultation would be needed, expressing their frustration that the companies were not being represented by higher-ranking executives. "I'm disappointed that you're here, and not your CEOs," said independent senator Angus King. From a FastCompany report: Senator Mark Warner (D-VA) had one specific and simple question for Facebook's Colin Stretch. He wanted to know about 30,000 fake accounts Facebook discovered earlier this year that were trying to influence the French election. At the time, Facebook bragged that it was able to discover these accounts and swiftly took them down. Warner wanted to know if Facebook, after discovering these accounts, cross-checked to see if these same accounts also tried to tamper with the U.S. election. "Your leadership bragged about how proactively you were in the French election process," said Warner, "Did you check those accounts [with the U.S. election]?" Stretch couldn't give a straight answer. "The system that ran to take down those accounts -- which were fake accounts of all type and any purpose -- is now active worldwide," he said. Warner wasn't amused. "Just answer my question," he said. "Have you reviewed the accounts you took down in France that were Russian-related to see if they played any role in the American election?" Once again, Facebook couldn't answer.
Surely the tech firms LOVE Trump (Score:1)
I'm sure the celebrities and college professors are right behind the tech firms.
Re:Surely the tech firms LOVE Trump (Score:4, Interesting)
They are mixed on T. While the tech firms love deregulation and lower taxes, they don't like losing their supply of overseas labor, and don't like being told when and how include/exclude security features to allegedly help law enforcement and DHS.
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You are not keeping track of things very well here. Many, MANY jobs have moved BACK.
More specifically, the ones everyone with the microphones have been saying WILL NEVER come back.
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Let me clarify: companies do not want regulations/controls on where and who they hire. Specific org movement plans and trends are mostly a different issue.
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The leadership is focused on their fiduciary duty and/or utopian political aspirations. With Trump in office, they're facing the potential for negative regulatory actions against them for the first time since the DOJ went after Microsoft in the '90s... And frankly, they deserve it. Facebook and Google have more control over American lives than Standard Oil ever did.
Republicans might have a reputation for being pro-Big Business, but being yelled at for years by overpowered tech companies and their left-to-fa
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Right now the NFL, Twitter, Facebook, and CNN (over Fox, but Fox could be included) are seen as political organizations.
The NFL and Twitter would have larger bottom lines if they were seen as politically neutral in general, but it doesn't seem to steer much.
Headline is a mess (Score:5, Insightful)
Facebook, Twitter and Google Berated by Senators on Russia
Took a bit to parse this.
Logically it feels more like the subjects are just swapped. "Russia Berated by Senators on Facebook, Twitter, and Google"
Then it looks like the senators that are doing the berating are Russian.
It would need to read something like, "Senators berate Facebook, Twitter, and Google on Russian Interference"
Re:Headline is a mess (Score:5, Funny)
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We can spend months trying to guess the final effect of all this meddling, but the bottom line is that both parties should be against organized foreign meddling in our political process, period. The actual outcome is secondary.
(Yes, I know, the US has been meddling in foreign affairs under the tables for many decades, and many of those countries have a right to be pissed.)
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Wait, Russia's not Communist anymore, nevermind...
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The true irony here is that in the end, we didn't actually even charge them. They have the same exact unrestricted access to all the social media networks that our own citizens do, and aside from the bad grammar, nothing to invalidate them as such.
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First, until the whole kit and caboodle of information relating to these advertisements and accounts is revealed to the public we can't even begin to have an informed and fruitful discussion about what the intention was. That we do not have this information now is telling. It is an intentional smoke screen put up by our government, supported by the tech companies, and enabled by the press. It shows you one thing more than anything else, namely the first rule of the carnival: Don't let the rubes see the
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I don't believe it was a coordinated effort by these parties. It looks more like collectively sticking one's head in the sand to avoid having to deal with reality.
There are indeed plenty of jerks and misdeeds by many groups/parties within US, but Putie's meddling is still a problem. Just because your stove is broken is not a reason to not fix the refrigerator. (Humans suck in general, by t
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Coordination is not necessary for my assertion to be true. It only requires each party to act in their own self interest and to completely ignore their responsibilities.
Our government entities want to be able to control the narrative by selective release of facts. First, it helps them distract and misdirect. More importantly, it makes sure they can continue to do the things that they are upset at the "Russians" for doing with their ad buys, namely propagandize and manipulate the American electorate. So,
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So when will the conversation about how Germany "meddled" in our elections happen? Or Canada? Mexico? England? China?
Fun Fact: EVERYONE WHO CAN "meddles" in American elections because if there's a pie America can't keep it's fingers out of it and they all want their most favorable outcome. This kind of "meddling" happens all the time. Democrats and Republicans have both benefited from this type of "meddling" historically, and have little reason to want it to stop.
Take a look at where foreign money goes, you
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A similarly, GOP ignores it because it makes their win look rigged. Either way, it deserves to be looked into. Just because the motivations of those who "care" are not purely altruistic doesn't mean the topic should be ignored.
If my neighbor helps me find our lost pet because he wants to borrow my drill, so be it: help is help.
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We want voters to operate only under American influence. It's our democracy, and its flaws and terrible brokenness should be our fault; we shouldn't have to deal with the Russians creating a charged atmosphere of political divisiveness and shifting the balance toward a candidate in their favor.
It's self-interest, and it makes sense. We interfere with other countries's elections as well, for our own self-interests. There's no treaty not to; allowing this is considered an internal issue.
Still, look at
Re:provoked angry Americans to take to the streets (Score:4)
So, you're saying that Hillary should not have been going to the British for "opposition research"? Got it.
we shouldn't have to deal with the Russians creating a charged atmosphere of political divisiveness
Yes. That should be the exclusive purview of our own corporate controlled media.
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At least we can make laws about... oh. Right. Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of the press.
We did make laws requiring political committees and activist groups to tag their political ads as paid for by their committee and authorized or not authorized by a candidate or candidate committee, so we have some disclosure.
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The Chinese government uses the same excuse to censor their internet.
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People use hypodermic needles to shoot up heroin. Flu shots should be banned.
Re:provoked angry Americans to take to the streets (Score:4, Informative)
Re:provoked angry Americans to take to the streets (Score:5, Informative)
The voter turnout for the 2016 election was not a 20-year low.
FTFY. Turnout in 1996: 51.7% (Clinton vs Dole). Peak in 2008: 61.6% (Obama vs McCain) back down in 2012: 58.6%, then up again in 2016: 60.2%...
Source: http://www.electproject.org/ho... [electproject.org]
The problem was not how many people voted, but that they were
A) intentionally misinformed
Clearly, as you are helping to demonstrate
and B) given a poor choice of candidates.
Well, duh. Isn't that always the case?
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It is a flawed democracy equal with Italy, ahead of France and just behind Japan.
A turnout of ~ 60% is to be ashamed off, not celebrated.
Your political system is deeply flawed and corrupt.
Change it and stop whinging, other countries have but then they probably aren't as great as the USA.
No, I did not say it would be easy but that is your 'challenge'.
Re:provoked angry Americans to take to the streets (Score:4, Insightful)
"Voter turnout" is not an end in and of itself. If it were, we'd simply make voting mandatory.
The ability to abstain is a basic rule of the common law parliamentary process for good reason: an uninformed voter or one who votes carelessly or randomly dilutes the decision-making ability of the remainder.
I don't want "more people to vote". I want people to "vote carefully". If someone is not capable of voting carefully, then I'd prefer that they don't vote.
In terms of getting "the right people to vote", the Senators didn't mention it, but Facebook has proved that it has the power to do exactly that by adjusting advertising and emotional tone of what it presents to users in their Newsfeed. If Facebook decides on election day to add a little "Don't forget to vote today!" notice on the top of the page for anyone who self-described as a Republican, and hides the "I voted!" posts otherwise visible to you if you self-describe as a Democrat, that would be rather worthy of censure, wouldn't it?
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Your implication is that only one choice is the "correct, informed" choice.
Actually, no it isn't. I simply request that a rational argument be made by the voter in question. I don't have to agree with it. An *irrational vote* is as dangerous as flipping a coin.
There were rational arguments for all four major-ish candidates in the last cycle, IMO.
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They likely don't see it the correct way.
Feinstein is there to help them see it the correct way.
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And...also to ban guns. [youtube.com]
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That's a nice company you've got there, sure would be a shame if something happened to it...
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That's a nice office you've been elected into, sure would be a shame if a corporation with more money than you can comprehend decides to buy the next election for your competitor.
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That's how the world SHOULD work. But not how it does.
Re:Senate: Come on, guys, please take us seriously (Score:5, Interesting)
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Propaganda changes people's minds and votes all the time by it's very nature. The best part about using it is the first and only response by many is "It's a farce." The super best part is your targets will argue that point for you.
--
"It's raining and it's cold" - El Perro
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> Did "Russian" propaganda compel YOU to vote for Trump?
Nope. I was compelled to vote for Trump by all of the Qatari-funded propaganda laundered through Soros, MoveOn, UBM, DHS, etc, and the censorship of any opposing view on almost every website on the Internet followed by DoS attacks on the websites that still allow people have arguments and polite disagreements. Note that Congress is not holding hearings on all that which definitely interfered with the election, but Russia made one legal $100k ad buy
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Hey, you should tell the advertising geniuses at companies that advertising doesn't work. I'm sure they'd listen to you, just present them with your statistics showing that it doesn't work. Errr...you do have those, right?
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No, you don't get it. I'm asking why propaganda does work (rhetorically of course) and why should we blame the Russians for it.
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the case arose in 2008 when Citizens United, a conservative nonprofit corporation, released the documentary Hillary: The Movie, which was highly critical of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, a candidate for the 2008 Democratic nomination for president of the United States. Citizens United wished to distribute the film through video-on-demand services to cable television subscribers within a 30-day period before the start of the 2008 Democratic primary elections and to advertise the film in three specially produced television commercials.
https://www.britannica.com/eve... [britannica.com]
Whoop de do Tarantula Town (Score:2)
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Yup. We would still investigate, only the other partisans would join in and put it on their news channel.
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Good, you're capable of rational thought. Now, consider the possibility that they did it not by "exposing what the Democrats have been doing" but simply by just lying about what everybody has been doing. Seriously consider the possibility that this very premise of your initial assumption is false and start over again from the beginning to see what your capacity for rational thought comes up with then.
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Good, you're capable of rational thought. Now, consider the possibility that they did it not by "exposing what the Democrats have been doing" but simply by just lying about what everybody has been doing. Seriously consider the possibility that this very premise of your initial assumption is false and start over again from the beginning to see what your capacity for rational thought comes up with then.
Nobody had to lie to get me to vote against Clinton. Nobody needed to. The real things that she did and said, and the real overreach of her party, were more than enough.
Re: What is getting "stirred up"? (Score:1)
If you find that watching your "news" source routinely makes you angry, consider that it may be your news source's goal to make you angry. There are a bunch of those out there, and they're very good at it.
Re:What is getting "stirred up"? (Score:4, Informative)
While I agree with your general sentiment, if you look at the details of this specific issue it was actually pretty nefarious. The summary comes nowhere near describing what actually happened.
The Russian trolls tried to get people out for a demonstration by a (fake) group called "Heart of Texas" and ALSO to get other people out for a demonstration by a (fake) group called "United Muslims of America". At the same time. At the same place. In front of an Islamic center.
Here's an article with a lot more details about it (first hit that came up on a search): http://www.washingtonexaminer.... [washingtonexaminer.com]
It shouldn't take much imagination, regardless of your political inclination, to see that this was an attempt to destabilize American society. It's also not hard to imagine that this will be a continuing threat. It actually reminds me of this Twilight Episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Senators grandstanding (Score:1)
Oh the irony (Score:5, Funny)
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You forgot about definition of Congress - is opposite of Progress...
But it's alright if it's just to drive ad revenue? (Score:5, Insightful)
So if some site in Russia is posting divisive crap to try to manipulate American opinions, that's bad. But if some idiot in Boulder creates an opaque network of sites posting divisive crap to drive ad revenue, well that's just fine?
Some tools are just tools, and you need to look at the users to figure out if the tool is being used badly. The tools in question are DESIGNED to divide us and influence us to do things we wouldn't choose to do if we actually thought about it. Russia having access to these tools is a relatively minor problem in the overall scheme of things, but I guess it's easier to blame Russia, throw in some stupid "fixes" which don't address the underlying problem, and claim victory.
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Well the issue at hand is that it was assumed that the vast majority of US citizens were good people who generally did not desire the total destruction of the country followed shortly by the world and possibly the entire planet through global thermonuclear war. Unfortunately, baked into this admittedly possibly naive but up until recently provably true assumption was the additional and quite fatal assumption that hostile foreign entities weren't participating in the conversation at all so it didn't need to
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These tools are not for the vast majority of Americans. They are for institutions to manipulate the public - that's what advertising is.
Blah Blah Blah (Score:1)
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Even as AC this deserves an upvote.
I really wish 'social media' would just die (Score:3)
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The problem is twitter/facebook users. They won't get any smarter if the sites die. They will just spew their bullshit over the wider web.
Leave them in their ghettos.
Ad revenue (Score:2, Insightful)
Two words speak louder than anything. Google, Facebook and Twitter get it. They did it for the Ad Revenue. Plan and simple. The online advertising industry is wild wild west and it is a joke. Anything can be stated without any facts as long as you pay for the ad campaign.
Dear Ms. Feinstein, (Score:2)
The Irony Is None of These Senators ever answers Q (Score:1)
They are a bunch of liars.. who in order to misdirect the public, and provoking fear by hyping up what happens ACROSS THE WOLRD, BY EVERY COUNTRY.... ie.. the dark arts. The sad thing is the American public is dumb enough to fall for this shit.
... OK, because capitalism (Score:2)
The interests of social media companies and the interests of politicians are divergent. What interests the public and the public interest are divergent. Very little of this is about the truth, it is about self interest.
What we are seeing is social media acting as a big multiplier of the Herman Chomsky media filters, aka group think.
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"I'm disappointed that you're here, and not your CEOs," said independent senator Angus King. "If we go through this exercise again we should appreciate seeing the top people."
They are not there to be berated. They are there to testify. Congress has the authority to subpoena people to answer questions. Congress does not have the authority to force people to appear before them and get yelled at.
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Yes. They really should say, "You don't get it! The internet is a GLOBAL network, that fortunately you don't get to control."
Re:send a pleb (Score:4)
Realistically you're there to sit and take whatever they say because otherwise they'll put your ass in a sling.
Realistically if it were me I would simply smile and walk out. Oh, you mean they will hold me in contempt of congress? Let's see how that will pan out in front of the supreme court
Congress has the right to subpoena anyone to answer questions that are important to pending legislation. Congress does (or individual senators/representatives do) not have a right to force me to listen to their political speeches or campaigning. That is not the intent of Congress' right to subpoena. Doing so would violate my civil rights and the supreme court, however much they like to stay out of Congress' business, will be quick to recognize that.
They can ask questions, listen to my answers, and then create, amend or abolish laws. That's what they're there for. Which, funnily enough, is the one thing they have been doing a piss-poor job at lately, dems and reps.
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Or not show up to the summons at all, much like what Bryan Pagliano did. The House did hold a vote whether or not to hold him in contempt, which failed to pass, where the partisan hacks gave up all the excuses why he should be allowed to flip Congress the bird. It'd be amusing to see those same excuses tossed back into their faces.
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If you're subpoena'd to appear yes, your ass will sit and not speak while you are being lectured for as long or as many days as they want to drag it out. They do have the power to have you arrested and held until you agree to testify, yes they sure as hell do.
See, you contradict yourself. I will have no problem agreeing to testify. Testifying is a matter of them asking questions, and my answering them to the best of my ability.
Testifying does not include being lectured to like I'm a toddler that stole a cookie. Unless I break the law, or congress needs my input in developing legislation, congress has no business summoning me, let alone arrest me. If they do, they are the state-mandated terrorists, for depriving me of my liberty without a just cause. A just cau
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Epic Fail [politico.com].
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Do you need more Salve for you Buttocks?
See Kevin Spacey
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Remember all those who called Bush a traitor?
Remember all those who called Clinton a traitor?
Remember all those who called Bush a traitor?
Remember all those who called Reagan a traitor?
Remember all those who called Carter a traitor?
Yeah, you are one of those people.
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You are delusional and need psychiatric help. You practice the same thing that delusional, paranoid schizophrenic, and religious people do, namely unshakable belief without any proof. You don't even express faith, as you have no doubts at all, which means you have no faith.
You are just stuck, like a broken clock. It is unfortunate you possess a human brain. With all of that certainty you don't even get to use any of it. It would be much easier to simulate your rigid experience of reality with matchstic
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I think if you were to call the GP "poopyhead", that would really make your argument airtight. BTW, just what is the point that you are making?
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Ummm, I dunno, maybe that supporting an unwavering, unchanging story that came out before any investigations were done is incredibly naive, even delusional?
The fact that no facts were known, but that every factoid that is revealed fits the story perfectly in some people's minds is uncanny to the point that it is unrealistic. The facts keep changing, but the story and what the facts mean keep staying the same. That's delusional.
The only other choice is it's intentional. A story repeated so often becomes t
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