Microsoft Debuts Windows 10 on ARM; Asus and HP Unveil Laptops With 20-Hour Battery Life, Gigabit LTE (zdnet.com) 139
Mary Jo Zoley, writing for ZDNet: A year ago, Microsoft announced it was working with its PC partners to bring Windows 10 to Qualcomm's ARM processors. The resulting machines, part of the "Always Connected PC" ecosystem, would start rolling out before the end of calendar 2017, officials said. Today, December 5, Microsoft provided a progress report on Windows on ARM at Qualcomm's Snapdragon Tech Summit. Microsoft and PC makers Asus and HP showed off new PCs running Windows 10 on Snapdragon 835 at the event. Asus' NovoGo will begin shipping at least in quantities before year-end, I've heard. Models with 4 GB of RAM and 16 GB of storage will be available starting at $599, and 8GB/256 GB storage model at $799, Asus officials said today. Asus is claiming 22 hours of continuous video playback and 30 days of standby. HP's Envy x2 -- like most of the ARM-based Always Connected Windows 10 devices -- won't be available until Spring of 2018. Users can get up to 20 hours of active use and 700 hours of "Connected Modern Standby." Pricing is not yet available.
Fuck Windows 10 (Score:5, Informative)
Use Linux. No spying. No forced updates. Totally secure.
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But you repeat yourself...
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Other than Outlook (which will work online these days) and gaming, my Ubuntu laptop works fine for productivity.
I'm guessing you don't do heavy video or photo editing.
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I'm a huge Linux user. It's my primary dev box and media centre. I love it and use it for everything.
That being said, no no no. Gimp does not compare to Photoshop, Inkscape is afar from Illustrator ... the only things close is Darktable, which gets pretty close to Lightroom, but it still have some UI disasters (but also a lot of contributors so I think we'll see improvements)
There are more indie games on Linux now, but for the most part, I still use a Windows laptop for photos, video and games. Oh and video
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Small or Medium sized enterprise?
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Did you take a look at recent camera sales?
These days, most people take photos only with their phone. They're happy with the editing tools provided by Google and Apple. A few people own DSLRs. For most of them, simple apps like Shotwell are good enough. A few are more demanding and a tool like Darktable will meet their needs.
A tiny, tiny minority make a living from photography. They need Adobe's software and Linux won't cut it. But I doubt they constitute more than 0.1% of the population.
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One of the test scenarios for emulation was running 32bit Photoshop (x86) on Qualcomm chips. Check the promo videos from when this was announced last year.
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Notice they don't compare performance to an x86 chip. And it'll suck. An Snapdragon 835 compares poorly for performance with x86/x64 chips even given native code
http://weborus.com/snapdragon-... [weborus.com]
And Photoshop x86 probably uses a lot of SIMD code. Theoretically you could probably JIT x86 SSE to ARM NEON, but Intel posted this
https://newsroom.intel.com/edi... [intel.com]
Intel carefully protects its x86 innovations, and we do not widely license others to use them. Over the past 30 years, Intel has vigilantly enforced its intellectual property rights against infringement by third-party microprocessors. One of the earliest examples, was Intel's enforcement of its seminal "Crawford '338 Patent." In the early days of our microprocessor business, Intel needed to enforce its patent rights against various companies including United Microelectronics Corporation, Advanced Micro Devices, Cyrix Corporation, Chips and Technologies, Via Technologies, and, most recently, Transmeta Corporation. Enforcement actions have been unnecessary in recent years because other companies have respected Intel's intellectual property rights.
However, there have been reports that some companies may try to emulate Intel's proprietary x86 ISA without Intel's authorization. Emulation is not a new technology, and Transmeta was notably the last company to claim to have produced a compatible x86 processor using emulation ("code morphing") techniques. Intel enforced patents relating to SIMD instruction set enhancements against Transmeta's x86 implementation even though it used emulation. In any event, Transmeta was not commercially successful, and it exited the microprocessor business 10 years ago.
Only time will tell if new attempts to emulate Intel's x86 ISA will meet a different fate. Intel welcomes lawful competition, and we are confident that Intel's microprocessors, which have been specifically optimized to implement Intel's x86 ISA for almost four decades, will deliver amazing experiences, consistency across applications, and a full breadth of consumer offerings, full manageability and IT integration for the enterprise. However, we do not welcome unlawful infringement of our patents, and we fully expect other companies to continue to respect Intel's intellectual property rights. Strong intellectual property protections make it possible for Intel to continue to invest the enormous resources required to advance Intel's dynamic x86 ISA, and Intel will maintain its vigilance to protect its innovations and investments.
There's a helpful graph of Intel patents on new instructions going back to 1996. US patents since 1995 have a 20 year life. Which means anything after 19
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They sued Transmeta, which did code morphing.
Emulation is not a new technology, and Transmeta was notably the last company to claim to have produced a compatible x86 processor using emulation ("code morphing") techniques. Intel enforced patents relating to SIMD instruction set enhancements against Transmeta's x86 implementation even though it used emulation.
I.e. it doesn't matter if you execute an SSE instruction directly in hardware, or if you translate it to an ARM NEON instruction and execute that, it is still violating the patent.
In the Intel/Transmeta cases Transmeta sued Intel first, Intel then countersued over code code morphing violating SSE patents. The end result was a cross-licensing agreement. And then Transmeta failed due to poor sales.
https://www.eetimes.com/author... [eetimes.com]
Intel's patent lawsuit with Transmeta resulted in only a set of counteracting settlements and a cross-licensing agreement. Transmeta would shutter its doors some time later due to disappointing sales.
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or if you translate it to an ARM NEON instruction and execute that, it is still violating the patent.
What SSE patent can it possibly violate when I write a compiler for NEON? (Not to mention that I live in a place where math is not patentable anyway, but still...)
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Mips sued Lexra. Lexra's chips didn't implement the patented instructions in the Mips instruction set but Mips argued that since the unimplemented patented instructions faulted, like other invalid instructions, it was theoretically possible for a user of the chip to emulate them in software and thus violate the patent. Lexra went bust without that argument being decided. The Intel Transmeta case was settled. So it's not clear what would happen if Intel sued either Microsoft or a hardware vendor over an emul
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And before you talk about that being the same as banning compilers and assemblers it's not the same thing. An assembler or compiler that generates NEON instructions from assembler or C is not the same legally as a JIT compiler which generates them from x86 binaries in order to run them on ARM.
As far as I know, in my country, all of these are allowed and not touchable by any patent of Intel. Hell, even reverse engineering of software for the sake of achieving its interoperability with something is untouchable by law here. I'm not questioning that legal hellholes can exist, but the argument that you shouldn't be able to do this is ridiculous.
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Well Intel have clearly stated they thing executing SSE instructions via emulation is just as infringing as executing them in hardware.
However Microsoft, Qualcomm and the hardware vendors seem like they're going to launch Snapdragon based devices with an x86 emulator. I suppose we'll have to see what happens - Intel might license its patents. Or it might sue.
Interestingly in the Transmeta case, Transmeta sued Intel. Intel then sued over SIMD patents. And the license fees ended up going from Intel to Transme
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You're thinking all code is created the same way.
Consider this, most code these days for Windows is generally packed in someway or another. Therefore while something like DynamicRIO could probably compil the unpacking code, the code would then be unpacked and would have to be executed. Since DynamicRIO would no longer be running, the unpacked x86 code could no longer run.
To make this work, it is necessary to employ a just-in-time compiler which is exactly the same as code morphi
Re:Fuck Windows 10 (Score:5, Insightful)
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Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?
Oh a Mac would be a better option if that was a requirement for you. Ubuntu, or any flavor of Linux, would be far behind Windows, though.
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Oh a Mac would be a better option if that was a requirement for you.
Based on what? Most Macs come with a built-in display well outperformed by others in the industry. The one which doesn't costs more than a second hand car and is now is essentially ancient hardware with the dubious record of still being priced the same as it was on release date.
10 years ago this wouldn't have been a contest. But Apple has cut the creative professionals off at the knees and then pissed on them while they were down, so much so that Adobe now preferences PCs over Macs when it comes to releasin
Re: Fuck Windows 10 (Score:2)
> Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?
Probably because support for hardware codec-acceleration has historically been one of Linux's major weak points. Most video codec hardware acceleration requires proprietary binaries and/or royalty payments (at least, officially).
This is now probably a bad example, but I remember that ~4 years ago, Windows Media Center could play h.264 1080p60 video without issues on my Thinkpad T61p... but the same stuttered & dropped frames
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Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?
Because Windows users have a thing for fat chicks.
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Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?
Because if they wern't there would be nothing tying them to Windows. It's like saying why is everyone who is Pro Ferrari interested in performance cars.
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Re:Fuck Windows 10 (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm guessing you don't do heavy video or photo editing.
It's a safe guess as most people do not. There are a thousand other jobs.
My job requires Linux, so obviously Windows is a bad choice for me. But I am not going to apply my own requirements broadly to all people, that would be silly.
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I'm guessing you don't do heavy video or photo editing.
It's a safe guess as most people do not. There are a thousand other jobs.
My job requires Linux, so obviously Windows is a bad choice for me. But I am not going to apply my own requirements broadly to all people, that would be silly.
There are far more photographers than Unix admins out there. I'd wager far more people in video, too.
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There are far more photographers than Unix admins out there. I'd wager far more people in video, too.
I suspect the numbers are similar, but I don't really know. Google says about 56k professional photographers in the world, and I have no data on the number of Unix admins (I'm not a Unix admin, at least not in the last decade. But I still need Unix for my job). There are about 7 million tech workers in the US, but again I don't know how many of them use Unix, if I did I might be able to come up with a ball park estimate of the number of Unix admins needed to support them.
I'm willing to concede that you're r
Re: Fuck Windows 10 (Score:3)
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Pixar doesn't do a lot of video editing. Most of what they do is 3D modeling and animation, using their own proprietary software.
Re: Fuck Windows 10 (Score:2)
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What video editing software is being run on Linux these days by the pros? I really don't see it.
Re: Fuck Windows 10 (Score:2)
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Great argument - tell someone to Google. It's almost like you never had your own argument in the first place. You know that private companies tend not to publish trade secrets or really much of that info at all - there is no guarantee that this information is out there in any reliable capacity.
However what I do know is that Final Cut Pro usage is gaining usage in Hollywood. I also know that Avid Media Composer is huge and is Windows and Mac only. Nothing I find on Google tells me otherwise.
Re: Fuck Windows 10 (Score:2)
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Giflornick
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I regularly use FamiTracker, OpenMPT, and a few other applications. They aren't available as Linux native applications, but they work usably in Wine 1.8 in Debian 9 "Stretch". The one problem is that the x86 code won't work on an ARM processor without some sort of x86-to-ARM dynamic recompiler, such as that in Windows.
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Is that the fault of Windows or is it the fault of Node.js? I don't think there's any failing of Windows that would cause node.js to just not work. One could easily say that Windows is better for development because Linux doesn't handle Windows app store development.
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One could easily say that Windows is better for development because Linux doesn't handle Windows app store development.
Wha? Who in the world cares about Windows app store development?
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Windows runs on top of UEFI so it's possible that you could install a generic 'ARM Linux' image on them.
However in the past Microsoft have forced hardware vendors to lock down their ARM devices but not lock down their x86/x64 ones
https://www.pcworld.com/articl... [pcworld.com]
"Disabling Secure [Boot] MUST NOT be possible on ARM systems," reads page 116 of the company's Windows Hardware Certification Requirements document, as noted recently by Computerworld UK blogger Glyn Moody.
"Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices" was the title of the ensuing blog post from the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC).
'Custom Mode Allows for More Flexibility'
So that's one bit of bad news for Linux users. On the PC side, however, things are more complicated.
For non-ARM devices, Microsoft's Certification Requirements define a "custom" Secure Boot mode that seems to allow for the installation of Linux. "On non-ARM systems, the platform MUST implement the ability for a physically present user to select between two Secure Boot modes in firmware setup: 'Custom' and 'Standard'," the Microsoft document specifies. "Custom Mode allows for more flexibility."
Specifically, Custom Mode will let users modify the contents of the Secure Boot signature databases and the platform key (PK) that verifies kernels during system start-up, thus potentially opening the door to alternative operating systems such as Linux.
I.e. Microsoft's view is that there are two different types of devices
1) 'PCs', i.e. x86/x64 devices where Microsoft was legally judged to be a monopoly. On those they force IHVs to allow the user to install new signatures. So you could install a c
$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this a bad joke? This is basically an underpowered netbook, regardless of battery life.
Also, it comes with Windows 10S, which is essentially crippled by design. Yeah, 10 Pro is free. For now.
Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?
I can buy 2-3 refurb Thinkpad X-series for the same price.
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I agree these in particular don't look like useful hardware.
If you look at a slightly bigger picture, I think running real operating systems and software on ARM hardware could end up being popular, since battery life is usually terrible on x64.
I think most of the Slashdot crowd could appreciate the possibility of having a smartphone without carrying 1984 around in your pocket, too.
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The question is, if I sit down and start using this machine how slow is it? I use a Surface Book each day and plan to get a Surface Book 2 next month. Yes, it's top end model. I have high expectations from a laptop. Will this laptop be so slow that a Core i3 is fast?
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This is basically an underpowered netbook, regardless of battery life.
The battery life is possible precisely because it is "underpowered". It's called a trade-off, and engineers have to do it all the time.
It should handle web apps, office apps, and basic entertainment just fine, so it is not underpowered in an absolute sense.
Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?
A lot of corporate laptops already have cellular internet. The US government uses them on occasion too.
There's this thing called VPN which addresses insecure networks, and a laptop needs it anyway. No external network is safe, so VPN should be the norm ev
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They are trying to compete with Chromebooks which has begun to totally dominate primary and secondary education. They will fail for the same reason Windows R bit the dust, it's not compatible with all the windows x86 applications and the number of windows ARM applications is non-existent.
People would be better off with a chromebook, after all now that Chromebook's have access to the full Google Play Android applications they can install word/excel on Chromebooks and have more than they could get on these st
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it's not compatible with all the windows x86 applications and the number of windows ARM applications is non-existent.
Did you read the linked article at all? You must've missed the part about the WoW being extended to provide x86 emulation on ARM. Most existing Windows apps will run on it, and the emulation will be refined as they have more real-world examples of what works and what doesn't.
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A laptop that's already underpowered, being forced to do emulation? How's that going to perform, and what's going to happen to battery life when you're running apps through emulation?
This is going to be a terrible user experience which will quickly earn a terrible reputation.
Recall macOS's transition from 68K to PPC to x86 (Score:3)
A laptop that's already underpowered, being forced to do emulation?
Your phone is forced to do emulation whenever it visits a website containing JavaScript, or whenever it runs a PhoneGap app written in JavaScript, or whenever it runs an Android app written in Java.
How's that going to perform, and what's going to happen to battery life when you're running apps through emulation?
Probably about as well as 68000 emulation in Mac OS 7.5 and 8.x for PowerPC, or about as well as PowerPC emulation in Mac OS X 10.5 for Intel. The former was an interpretive 68LC040 emulator, and Connectix sold a replacement emulator called Speed Doubler that used dynamic recompilation. Apple eventually got its o
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Please cool it with the name calling.
X86 programs are far more complex and cpu intensive than websites
Have you seen what goes into modern adtech?
Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage (Score:4, Informative)
How's that going to perform
It performs well [youtube.com]. The x86 compatibility layer is fast enough that x86 and ARM binaries run well together [youtube.com].
This is going to be a terrible user experience which will quickly earn a terrible reputation.
Doesn't seem to be. Maybe try it out first.
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I saw the claim of emulation, color me skeptical given Microsoft's past history with emulation. I'll wait until the actual user reports that call the emulation completely unworkable and worthless before I accept Microsofts claims as they've done this before several times then abandoned the product 6 months later because it's garbage. This is windows RT all over again.
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Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?
Why do you think it's replacing WiFi? The article clearly states;
Always Connected is the branding for PCs that include built-in gigabit LTE and WiFi; long battery life (in ARM devices' case, allegedly multiple days without a recharge); run Windows 10; and be thin, light and fanless.
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Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?
Wait, it has LTE but will it not have WiFi?
I'd imagine that when both are available, WiFi is preferred over LTE.
Re: $599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage (Score:3)
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I select a cafe based on the taste of the coffee, not on whether the establishment has free wifi.
(Sorry Starbucks, but your espresso is sub-par.)
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I already VPN into the corp intranet, so WiFi or L:TE doesn't matter. And if I were doing SMB consluting I'd recommend they do the same, tunnel in and don't worry a moment about the conduit. Strongest affordable. Two-factor auth.
The network isn't the problem. It's always the problem, so you don;t ever, ever trust it, even your fancy black WiFi in your own living room.
I've done sensitive corp stuff over LTE (Score:1)
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I think you're comparing a PC to a
Let's make a better comparison. Let's compare this to a Motorola Galaxy... at least from a hardware perspective. How does this stack up? I guess the flash is less, but otherwise is there any actually different from a Samsung telephone? They're still making that huge iPad mini sized telephone right?
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Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?
Err, everyone's. That's a general industry move right now is to switch to LTE and come back into the office via VPN. Hell we did the same thing with our WiFi networks too, any connection to the WiFi was untrusted and you had to VPN into the network within the building. The move to LTE presents no worse security but has a massive improvement in mobility.
Unless your corporate network actually is just directly connected to WiFi in which case WTF are you thinking.
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It has 52wh battery. It is ok, bur not much in comparison to XPC (60,) and latest Yogas (72 and more in 13 inch models)
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This is the new Tandy Model 100. 20 hour battery life, limited hardware. It will be good for journalists or anyone who has a travel-heavy job and not a computing-heavy job.
Dead on arrival (Score:1)
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Maybe it will take off, but why make the entry-devices so cr@ppy? 4GB RAM/16 GB storage? Are they trying to ram clown storage down users' throats or are they just going for a bad user experience for entry users?
We've been down this road with Windows 8 RT (wRetched Turd).
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My guess is that they coordinate this with further removal of end-user control/subscription/etc on the desktop side of Win 10.
This will make crapware disposable Arm Win10 machines palatable to most people when the alternative is paying Intel prices for basically the same OS experience.
It's also likely targeted at the education market and other similar ones that have taken up Chromebooks.
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With x86 dying, MS and everybody needs this.
x86 isn't dying. But you're right, MS and everybody needs this. The truly ironic part is that Apple already has it's OS running on ARM, and yet Microsoft is going to beat them to the punch on ARM-powered notebooks. (Yes, Chromebooks technically were already there, but this is the first mainstream, general-purpose OS.)
With cheap ARM-powered notebooks with a 20+ hour battery life, this is definitely going to shake things up.
Re: Dead on arrival (Score:2)
ARM is only cheap & power-saving if you use it for undemanding uses on its own terms. An ARM that's beefed up to specs genuinely comparable to a desktop i7 uses as much power as (and usually costs a LOT more than) an actual i7.
Intel architecture is more efficient (behind the scenes, where it's REALLY executing RISC microcode PRETENDING to be x86) than many give it credit for. And x86/AMD64 and Windows have literally DECADES of mutual optimization for each other. It's going to be a very, very long time (
This is actually pretty big. (Score:2)
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The problem isn't screen design.
It's things like Microsoft accounts tied to your PERSONAL computer's login, cloud storage on Microsoft's servers (vs storage YOU control), random UX changes, and telemetry being rammed down your raw esophagus. Or at least Microsoft trying to annoy you and nudge you into using that junk.
Re: This is actually pretty big. (Score:2)
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I'm happily doing that with both Windows and Android devices and it hasn't killed me yet.
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Windows kernel everywhere is the goal. Your PC, phone, tablet, eventually TV, watch, car.
Not Windows RT? (Score:2)
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Exactly, this is equivalent to a much cheaper Chromebook.
Pricing is not available (Score:2)
Nor is the weight or thickness of these laptop models.
Connected? (Score:1)
"Always Connected PC" = always being spied on PC.
How negative can you get? (Score:2)
Oh, and hasn't Apple made a roaring profit (=success) of ARM (iPads) for the last few years? Why shouldn't Microsoft?
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"Why shouldn't Microsoft?" Because Microsoft is incapable of doing it without screwing it up?
The slippery sloooooope (Score:2)
Microsoft and Qualcomm are showing off the first Windows 10 on ARM devices, which provide Win32 app compatibility via emulation.
I think that's kind of a slippery slope for Microsoft. Probably not many Windows programs are going to be ported to Win10 ARM. So you get people used to work with most programs in emulation and then you find that they substitute Windows10 + emulator by Android + emulator, or iOS + emulator. I see in the future a Microsoft vs. Apple/Google lawsuit where Microsoft claims, Oracle-style, copyright over the Win32 API.
However, seeing the docking stations of Samsumg last models, that can turn the mobile into a sor
Prediction! (Score:2)
The invisible hand of the free market is going to give them the finger... again. ;)
x86 emulation layer (Score:2)
As odd as it might sound, the coolest part of this to me is the work put into the emulation layer... I've probably been living under a rock in this area, though. Are good, working, fast x86 Win32 emulators for ARM processors so commonplace these days that the feature doesn't even get a mention in the summary?
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Presumably not since I'm sure it relies heavily on the WoW system to work. But that native x86->ARM instruction set layer just seems pretty cool to me.
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CPU emulation has been with us for a while. Typically you can get up to 1/3 performance doing dynamic translation of instructions. I used to do this years ago on my G4 PowerBook. I used a PPC Linux distro, but had the Qemu system emulation working. Unlike full machine emulation, system emulation emulates the instructions, while passing Linux kernel calls on to the real, native, kernel. The result is that applications run fairly. In fact I used to run the x86 adobe flash plugin in my PPC firefox (don
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Typically you can get up to 1/3 performance doing dynamic translation of instructions.
Yeah, I guess that's the part that surprises me most about this. It's already an underpowered system running straight ARM stuff. So I'm thinking they put some extra cool, highly-optimized translation layer in this to get it working acceptably.
Of course, my assumption that it works "acceptably" could be wrong too...
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The issue with emulation across processor architectures isn't so much the instructions with a 1-to-1 (or 1-to-n) mapping. That's easy enough to substitute (even keep a small software cache of, so you don't need to repeat it).
The problem is the odd behaviors of each architecture. For example, ARM has a very relaxed memory ordering requirement for performance reasons. While x86 does total store ordering (all writes to memory are guaranteed to be ordered). Oftentimes, ARM processor designs rely on said orderin
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It's not even the first time for Windows has tried though either. Microsoft ported Windows NT to some other CPU architectures. The version for DEC Alpha had x86 instruction set emulation built into it. Not sure how wel
Kind've Expensive (Score:1)
store only and Edge engane only = fail (Score:4, Informative)
store only and Edge engine only = fail
"Always connected PC?" (Score:5, Insightful)
Running Windows 10?
No. Just No.
Does it still nag for fucking updates? (Score:2)
I would love a laptop with weekend battery life and always on LTE. But I am not willing to wait for half an hour when it decides to install the updates and I need to print out boarding passes for an upcoming flight. Somehow no other OS is as intrusive or slow at updating itself.
Hmm I don't know... (Score:1)
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This is basically the same thing.
Except Windows 10 on ARM has x86 Win32 compatibility [msdn.com]. That's a huge difference.
RT Part Deux, with deliberate blocking of Linux? (Score:1)
Why do they keep going back to ARM? (Score:2)
Seriously. How many times does the Win+ARM platform have to crash, burn, and explode shit all over everything in the area before Microsoft learns?
Didn't they take ENOUGH of a loss on their LAST attempt with the non-x86 Surface tablets?
Or are they just going to ship the losses to third-party manufacturers this time?
That'll only work once...
Microsoft on always on devices ... (Score:1)