Consumer Reports Recommends Tesla's Model 3 After Braking Fix (reuters.com) 224
Consumer Reports said on Wednesday that it now recommends Tesla's Model 3 sedan after its latest tests showed that a firmware update improved the car's braking distance by nearly 20 feet. From a report: The magazine last week flagged "big flaws" in the car, including braking slower than a full-sized pickup truck, while also highlighting many positives. In a tweet, Mr. Musk said he really appreciates "the high quality critical feedback from @ConsumerReports. Road noise & ride comfort already addressed too. UI improvements coming via remote software update later this month."
Some good news for Tesla? (Score:2, Funny)
The Slashdot crowd isn't going to like this...
Re:Some good news for Tesla? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm more concerned that a) they released the car with crap brakes and didn't notice until Consumer Reports told them about it and b) an over-the-air software update developed in about a week can apparently affect the operation of a critical safety system.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
why? they changed the value ratio of break pedal to caliper pressure.... in a older car they may have had to plug in a thingy to reprogram the same thing, but thsi is what you get with any drive by wire vehical.
you just have to hope that how they deliver firmware updates is "secure" enough... so you dont get the every pedel/switch/nob/screen is now an accelerator patch
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
I'm more concerned that a) they released the car with crap brakes and didn't notice until Consumer Reports told them about it and b) an over-the-air software update developed in about a week can apparently affect the operation of a critical safety system.
It sure must be confusing for you old folks who think cars are dirty, oily things that need you to go in and manually set the gaps every few weeks to make them work properly.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm more concerned that a) they released the car with crap brakes and didn't notice until Consumer Reports told them about it and b) an over-the-air software update developed in about a week can apparently affect the operation of a critical safety system.
It sure must be confusing for you old folks who think cars are dirty, oily things that need you to go in and manually set the gaps every few weeks to make them work properly.
At least I could afford the tools to keep my 65 VW Bug running, even if it was a greasy, oily mess to crawl under it every 3,000 miles to change the oil, adjust the valves and breaks.
These days, getting a full set of tools to maintain all the electronics on your average car is going to cost more than the car.
Re:Some good news for Tesla? (Score:5, Insightful)
I drive an EV (hate fossil cars), am not that old (I keep telling myself) and write embedded software for a living.
I test my software for longer than a week before releasing it, and it's not even safety critical.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have some experience in this area.
There must be some limit they were up against. Presumably heating of the brakes or something like that. So they adjust the limit to allow more consecutive hard stops.
Testing for that kind of thing takes more than a week. You need a good number of samples. Talk to the manufacturer. Do accelerated testing to destruction.
It's probably fine. Probably.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder if they reduced regen when the battery warmed up after repeated hard stops. Since most people don't do repeated emergency stops in real life it probably won't affect battery longevity.
Re: (Score:2)
The moral of the story is you don't let penny pinchers or greenies design safety critical systems. They're more concerned about their own financial safety or the safety of a damned tree as opposed to yours.
Re: Some good news for Tesla? (Score:3)
So you don't think that they may have been working on this already from other feedback and reviews they've gotten that said basically the same thing? Who ever said that the Consumer Reports review was the starting gun for this particular software change? Who's to say they didn't already have this ready to go in a larger update, and then cherry-picked this out for a quick update in order to deliver better braking and a needed PR win?
Re: (Score:2)
It sure must be confusing for you old folks
Says the person with "640k" in their handle.
Re:Some good news for Tesla? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem only emerged when doing multiple emergency stops in a row. How often do you do that?
A number of reviewers had reviewed the Model 3's brakes previously. Some noticed no issues at all. A couple noticed "inconsistency" in their repeated hard braking tests, but nonetheless rated them well. It was only Consumer Reports that managed to show that it was an actual problem.
I'm glad Tesla took it seriously. Going from a bad braking review to a fix for all vehicles in a week is really amazing. Compare and contrast to the GM ignition switch scandal [wikipedia.org], where they played the denial game for over a decade.
Of course, Slashdot is going to be full of people pretending that recalls only affect Tesla, just because media coverage focuses so heavily on Tesla. Literally, within days of the CR brake finding - affecting only repeat emergency braking events, and only to the point of braking like a pickup - Fiat issued a recall [nbcnews.com] for around 5 million vehicles due to a problem where the cruise control could get stuck on and the engine unable to be shut off, leading to the terrifying situation of the driver having to fight the vehicle to a stop with the brakes. But it got almost no coverage versus the Tesla issue.
Re: (Score:2)
It's good that they fixed it, I just worry because updating such software is not a trivial thing. A mistake could be fatal. And apparently they didn't test it very well in the first place, so with time pressure and Musk demanding a fix... The potential for things to go wrong now and in the future is high.
There is a reason it takes a long time to develop software for car systems and why it doesn't usually change much. It's not like a phone app where you can roll it out to 10% of users to see if it crashes fo
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
While I agree with most of what you said,
The problem only emerged when doing multiple emergency stops in a row. How often do you do that?
From CR website :
Our testers get a car up to 60 mph, then slam on the brakes until the car comes to a stop. They repeat this multiple times to ensure consistent results. Between each test, the vehicle is driven approximately a mile to cool the brakes and make sure they don’t overheat. In our testing of the Model 3, the first stop we recorded was significantly shorter (around 130 feet, similar to Tesla’s findings), but that distance was not repeated, even
Re: (Score:2)
While the cause was not clarified (beyond being related to ABS calibration issues), it was unrelated to heat. It appeared to be related to how much normal brake usage there was between emergency stops.
Re: (Score:2)
Thank you for reaffirming what I wrote: "it was unrelated to heat. It appeared to be related to how much normal brake usage there was between emergency stops."
Re: (Score:2)
The problem only emerged when doing multiple emergency stops in a row. How often do you do that?
I take it you've never been in the car with AmiMoJo? Cuz it happens all the bloody time...
Re: (Score:2)
In this case the change seems to be good, but I do have misgivings about a car I am accustomed to changing it's handling characteristics literally overnight.
you are braking it wrong (Score:2)
I'm assuming there's some trade between shortest stopping distance, optimal safety in anti-lock braking, Optimal safety in steering while braking, and optimal regenerative braking. One could always shorten the stopping distance of ANY car. Just put on grippier tires and detune the Antilock breaking. But the car may lose some handling while braking or slide on slippery surfaces.
it's all trades.
Re:Some good news for Tesla? (Score:4, Insightful)
There was a whole thread last time about how the idea of a firmware update improving the braking was just an absurd idea. I wonder what they'll say about it now.
Re: (Score:2)
Pass the popcorn, this will be good.
Re: (Score:2)
Should we bother mentioning also that in the past Tesla has also increased acceleration and range over the air, too? ;)
Re: (Score:2)
There was a whole thread last time about how the idea of a firmware update improving the braking was just an absurd idea.
It is absurd, they should have done more quality testing before releasing the car publicly.
Can you imagine the fallout if Ford or Chevy had to recall an entire line because of a deadly programming error? The lawsuits would be endless...
Re:Some good news for Tesla? (Score:5, Informative)
They regularly have made defects that have actually had fatal consequences, which they often tried to cover up. The most recent GM one (aka Chevy) being the ignition switch scandal that was settled in 2014, which killed at least 124 people over the 10 years that GM knew about the problem but hid it. In addition to compensating the families they were fined nearly a billion dollars for that stunt.
Re: (Score:2)
> Can you imagine the fallout if Ford or Chevy had to recall an entire line because of a deadly programming error? The lawsuits would be endless...
Are you serious? Chevy has had shitloads of dangerous/fatal recall problems. And how in the world can you even bring up Ford without bringing up the specter of the infamous rolling land mine a.k.a. the Pinto?
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1977/09/pinto-madness/
"For seven years the Ford Motor Company sold cars in which it knew hundreds of people would n
Re: Some good news for Tesla? (Score:2)
Did you forget that whole thing where GM actually killed people with their defective ignition switches, proceeded to deny and stone wall until their CEO was hauled in front of Congress to testify under oath?
I think I prefer "oh we see the issue, we'll fix it real quick and you don't have to do crap, except park next to some Wi-Fi."
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
There was a whole thread last time about how the idea of a firmware update improving the braking was just an absurd idea.
Pull out your secret corporate-speak decoder ring:
"firmware update" == "bribe"
As in:
"Some wonks wrote some critical reviews of our product. We'll fix those with some firmware updates."
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Tesla changing its tune (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
except that CR drives the car at slow speed to allow the brakes to cool down between each test. No excuse.
Re: (Score:2)
except that CR drives the car at slow speed to allow the brakes to cool down between each test. No excuse.
CR accelerates back to 60 mph and drives 1 mile to cool the brakes. It is about 1 minute long. Five hard 60 to 0 braking with 1 minute gap and the regen was turned off.
Re: (Score:2)
So what was it then? Why can't the car brake quickly twice in a row?
Re: (Score:3)
While I agree it's unusual someone may need to panic brake twice in quick succession, with the number of cars and drivers on the road, it's almost guaranteed to happen. And when "quick succession" becomes "within a 12 hour period or more", there's a ser
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Not what they said at all. (Score:5, Insightful)
Tesla said: Our testing says 133'
CR said: Same, on our first try, subsequent tries were longer.
Tesla said: Oh crap, that's probably a bug in our regen breaking stuff--thanks for pointing that out.
Tesla rolls out a fix and CR verifies the fix. It seems like everyone was well-behaved all the way around.
Re: (Score:2)
I think Tesla blamed the ABS algorithms, not regeneration, because Teslas don't work that way (you don't get more regeneration by pressing the brake pedal).
Re: (Score:3)
Indeed. Literally Musk's first tweet on the subject (and he's not famous for keeping his opinions to himself) was:
The team remotely diagnosed the problem and created a fix in less than a day. Name another automaker that has ever
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You know it's a conditional OTA update right? I have a Tesla S and I usually wait a bit, read the reviews, and then do the update.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Not what they said at all. (Score:2)
You think nobody is going to notice a flaw like that and post to the internet about it?
He says he waits a bit and then installs after other people get cut by the bleeding edge. The same as I do for OS updates after being burnt too many times.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"Brake".
The word you're looking for is "brake".
Re: (Score:2)
That's a pretty amazing news link you shared there.
Yeah, so unconcerned that they whipped out a fix in record time.
There's some nice, neutral, even-handed reporting for you.
If an over-the-air update can fix it... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Disclaimer: speculation
I think they were trying to recover energy from breaking rather aggressively earlier. Some kind of balance between how hard the pads squeeze on the rotors so some breaking happens from magnet/coils to recharge the batteries.
Something like this could be tweaked rather easily.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think Teslas work that way. You get max regeneration simply by lifting off the accelerator pedal, so the brakes are not modulated to provide more regeneration.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I have a Tesla S and it's configurable ( in the UI ). The regeneration kicks in when you let go of the accelerator.
You can choose
a) aggressive regeneration that feels like you are driving a heavy car; slows down reasonably quickly
b) standard regeneration that feels like you are coasting; slows just a touch more then my previous ICE car ( BMW 5 series ) which didn't have any regenerative braking
I personally use the aggressive option because I like that it slows down reasonably quickly on a light or a s
Re: (Score:2)
I think you just agreed with me.
The Model 3 has the same options, although they are named differently: standard and low.
I don't think either setting allows the car to modulate the brakes for regeneration.
Re: (Score:2)
You would love this once you get used to it. It is being raved about as "one pedal driving" in Tesla forums. Old stick shift people know this as engine braking, down shifting without clutch to reduce the car speed without touching the brakes.
Re: If an over-the-air update can fix it... (Score:2)
How is that different from a manual gearbox without pushing in the clutch or putting the gearbox into neutral?
Oh, you probably don't know what a clutch pedal is...
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed. It is rather alarming that so much safety critical equipment in a Tesla can be easily software tweaked at will by a company stuck in a startup mindset. OTA updates are great, till they are not. I'd freak out if my car suddenly changes how it responded to the the brake pedal. Using your fleet of installed users as unwitting testers is pretty damn sketchy.
Re:If an over-the-air update can fix it... (Score:5, Informative)
That's not how OTA updates work.
1) Tesla creates an update.
2) The update is tested internally on their own fleet for a period of time. If any problems occur, it goes back to development.
3) Tesla starts rolling out the update in small batches. Everybody does not receive the update at the same time. If any reports of any problems come in, the rollout is cancelled.
4) When a user gets an update, it does not just "autoinstall". The user can choose to install immediately, or schedule it for later. Your notion that you're driving along and suddenly your brake behavior changes is just not how it works.
Installing an OTA update is no different than getting a software update at the dealership except that it's a lot more convenient. And there's a much closer integration with the user. A user can literally activate voice commands, say "Bug report", and file a bug report about any aspect in the vehicle, which goes directly to Tesla's devel team. Along with the user's description, Tesla gets screenshots, vehicle logs, etc. You can also use the bug report feature to make feature requests.
Re: (Score:2)
If it were so easy of a fix, one has to wonder why Tesla didn't recognize and fix the problem in the first place?
The same reason you have bugs in any program you use. Software is complicated and hard. Testing is time consuming, expensive, and difficult. Bugs get out all the time. The difficulty of fixing an issue is nearly independent from the factors that go into finding it in the first place. Once identified, given the severity of the bug, fixing it was obviously crucial, and kudos to Tesla for quickly resolving the issue.
Why did it take a third party tester to find it?
Now THAT is a good question.
Re: (Score:2)
Now THAT is a good question.
The third party has to find just bug not caught by internal testing. Tesla has to catch every bug.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:If an over-the-air update can fix it... (Score:5, Insightful)
... and over-the-air update can also break it. Or take away the "feature" once the car leaves the showroom.
Really, are you serious?
And why would anyone in Tesla do that?
If it were so easy of a fix, one has to wonder why Tesla didn't recognize and fix the problem in the first place? Why did it take a third party tester to find it?
First, the braking distance from 60 mph to 0 changed from 152 feets to 133 feets. We're talking about a 12.5% improvement so it's not like the brake were completely unsafe neither.
Also, if you took the time to read TFA, you'll have learned that the issue were about the Anti-lock braking systems not aggressive enough. Not exactly a simple "bit 0 to 1" fix, it would take a lot of on-road testing to find the most optimal value.
My guess is that the car production was rushed and they decided that the brake performance were "good enough" for now. But it was until CR bashed on it by comparing the brake performance to a F-150.
Re: (Score:2)
And why would anyone in Tesla do that?
Why would anyone do that in the first place?
Re: (Score:2)
First, the braking distance from 60 mph to 0 changed from 152 feets to 133 feets. We're talking about a 12.5% improvement so it's not like the brake were completely unsafe neither.
Also, if you took the time to read TFA, you'll have learned that the issue were about the Anti-lock braking systems not aggressive enough. Not exactly a simple "bit 0 to 1" fix, it would take a lot of on-road testing to find the most optimal value.
Let's flip that around: How much on-the-road testing could they really have done if they now were able to eke out a 12.5% improvement in a matter of days?
Re: (Score:2)
And that's a HUGE improvement.
I could not see any mention of that in the article linked from the /. summary.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It is pretty serious when someone with wireless OBD-II access can disable your brakes or remotely steer your car off the road.
I don't know about Tesla specifically, but this has been tested on newer cars. Scary shit. Makes you wonder.
Well since you're talking about wireless OBD-II and steering the wheel remotely I'll assume you have no idea what's you're talking about so I'll save my breath for someone who does.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: If an over-the-air update can fix it... (Score:2)
What, you think their update process is a TFTP box? I'll bet they are using end-to end encryption with code signing because they aren't idiots and it isn't 1994. Comparing this to wireless ODB2 is amazingly ignorant.
Re: (Score:2)
... and over-the-air update can also break it. Or take away the "feature" once the car leaves the showroom.
And why would anyone in Tesla do that?
Because Tesla gets sued for patent infringement over a feature and removing it is part of the settlement or does otherwise reduce costs. We've had these things happen with consumer electronics. Why not cars?
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe not Tesla.
Maybe the CIA doesn't like someone and makes Tesla send an update the disables their brakes.
Maybe the russians hack Tesla and kill some politician.
Well if you're that worried about this kind of "Hollywood" hacking, you better not read too much about IoT or you'll start running in the wood in fear that a toaster will attack you.
Re: (Score:2)
First, the braking distance from 60 mph to 0 changed from 152 feets to 133 feets.
That's quite a feat.
Hint: Feet is already plural.
Thanks for the tip!
I'm french so it's a reflex to add "s" everywhere.
Because humans are imperfect? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Edge case? Have you ever driven in mountainous terrain?
"Payola" (Score:3, Funny)
I've never seen "Braking Fix" as a euphemism for "Payola" before.
Re:"Payola" (Score:4, Informative)
>> Consumer Reports Recommends Tesla's Model 3 After Braking Fix I've never seen "Braking Fix" as a euphemism for "Payola" before.
CR actually re-tested the car and it showed a braking improvement of 19 feet shorter -- which is now inline with what Tesla claimed and comparable to other cars of that size. They are also going to rent another Tesla Model 3 and test again.
Consumer Reports broke the fix? (Score:4, Funny)
Consumer Reports Recommends Tesla's Model 3 After Braking Fix
Seems counter-productive. :-)
Brakes (Score:2)
Is this meant to be good news? (Score:2)
The CR test is archaic and obsolete and NA for EV (Score:2)
It is ON by default, it reduces brake wear significantly and reduces brake heating and energy wastage significantly.
But they turned it off while testing Tesla. Why? To be "fair" to the ICE cars? To be "consistent" with earlier testing of gas cars? The test involves 60 to 0 braking hard, five times in a row with one mile of driving in between to cool.
Re: (Score:2)
With ABS all braking distances are limited by the tire not the braking power.
Considering that Tesla just reduced the braking distance with a firmware update, this statement is wrong: it is also limited by how aggressive the ABS is designed. Also, in an emergency panic stop regenerative braking is relatively inconsequential.
Re: (Score:2)
Still not clear what exactly was changed in
Re: (Score:3)
Funny.... I'm not too concerned.
The owner's manual clearly states that the autopilot feature isn't supposed to be used unless you're #1 on a highway (not some smaller side road with vehicles parked along the side of it), and #2 the lines are clearly painted.
Pretty much all of the accidents people had with autopilot engaged where when they ignored these things AND didn't bother to pay attention to what was happening in front of them, or even have their hands on the wheel.
If you're too stupid to get that thi
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Of course if it plays follow the leader and the driver of the leader falls asleep and drives over a cliff, you also don't want your car to follow.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: self driving car (Score:3)
I'm exhausted by people thinking that autopilot isn't just a pumped up cruise control, completely ignoring the thing telling you that you still have to pay attention and not be stupid, and then proceed to be stupid and not pay attention.
Would we be hearing about someone that drive their corolla into a parked police car because they were texting? It's basically the same shit.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
On the down hill drive from Pike's Peak, park service stops all the cars and checks the brake rotors for over heating. May be Tesla would have driven down from Pike's peak much safer than the ICE cars.
Re: (Score:2)
they [sic] software thought it is not the usual user going about normal driving. May be the car is going downhill on a long road and it is better to stop the brake from over heating.
So the Model 3 was effectively simulating brake fade?
No thanks. Good on CR for calling them on it. If Telsa thinks this is the right approach then the car needs indicate this behavior to the driver, at which point it might be considered a praiseworthy feature. But just mystifying everyone with poor performance is stupid; that just arms critics.
Re: (Score:2)
Let me give a computer analogy.
Similar to what Gartner used to do to compare Windows and Linux. It will disable all strong points of Linux and then declare Windows to be the winner.
That's a reasonable criticism (Score:2)
Bugs are inevitable, they are attracted to co