Senator Makes Amtrak Hire Ticket Agents Because 30 Percent of His State Lacks Internet (senate.gov) 240
McGruber writes: Joe Manchin, the senior Senator from West Virginia, has inserted language in the FY19 Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, and Related Agencies appropriations bill that will force Amtrak to employ at least one ticketing agent in every state that it serves.
His reasoning? "Amtrak has told me that most of their sales are now online, but West Virginians buy far more tickets at the Charleston station than most places around the country. That's not surprising, as nearly 30% of West Virginia is without internet access, and mobile broadband access is also difficult in my state's rugged, mountainous terrain, making online ticket sales difficult." Manchin continued: "Our population includes many working class families and elderly residents who are less likely to have a credit card or another means to purchase tickets remotely, but rely heavily on the train as an alternative to driving or flying. Although Matt Crouch's job was terminated today, once the bill is passed by the House and Senate and signed by the President, Amtrak will have to reinstate a position in the state and I will do everything over the next few months to make sure that happens."
His reasoning? "Amtrak has told me that most of their sales are now online, but West Virginians buy far more tickets at the Charleston station than most places around the country. That's not surprising, as nearly 30% of West Virginia is without internet access, and mobile broadband access is also difficult in my state's rugged, mountainous terrain, making online ticket sales difficult." Manchin continued: "Our population includes many working class families and elderly residents who are less likely to have a credit card or another means to purchase tickets remotely, but rely heavily on the train as an alternative to driving or flying. Although Matt Crouch's job was terminated today, once the bill is passed by the House and Senate and signed by the President, Amtrak will have to reinstate a position in the state and I will do everything over the next few months to make sure that happens."
Why blame Amtrak? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes, having no Internet access is a bad deal for Virginians, but maybe the state representative should be doing something about that instead of bitching to Amtrak.
That's great, and I encourage local co-ops to help build (probably wireless) infrastructure to help those residents get online.
In the meantime, people need to get on trains. I realize Amtrak service sucks sometimes, but I'd hope we don't have trains more than 3-4 years late.
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... but I'd hope we don't have trains more than 3-4 years late.
That would be one hell of a trip, and probably a little worrisome. Will my trip insurance cover lost wages during that time?
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In the meantime, people need to get on trains. I realize Amtrak service sucks sometimes, but I'd hope we don't have trains more than 3-4 years late.
That's the average delay in the UK at the moment, I think.
Re:Why blame Amtrak? (Score:4)
The free market has decided that some locations don't have a fast ROI so they will never build service there.
Unless the gov't steps in that will never change.
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Except that the government already did that. The telecoms pocketed billions and never built out the service in a lot of places.
Rather than attacking the profitability of Amtrak, which tends to struggle in the best of times, perhaps the good senator could work on forcing the telcom industry to finish their work. They don't seem to hurt for profit, and our investment in them should both be repaid and include the interest on that investment.
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Re:Why blame Amtrak? (Score:4, Insightful)
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The free market has decided that some locations don't have a fast ROI so they will never build service there.
I would suggest that a 15% tax be levied on the cost (including any usage fees) of every broadband connection, near-broadband connection, and cellular data plan to go to a Broadband Universal Service Fund, and the funds should be pooled and made available to issue grants for fiber to the home buildouts with a Mandatory Buildout Condition, As in ---- Any provider accepting the funds must make a
Re: Why blame Amtrak? (Score:2)
Free Market can't provide "decisions" here (Score:2)
Let the free market decide
The free market cannot provide decisions in a heavily subsidized market. Automobile travel is heavily subsidized; thus rail travel is competing with another transportation provider, private autos, that receives a near 50% subsidy.
This article presents an unusually low estimate of the subsidies that autos receive:
Over the last 40 years, gas taxes, tolls, and registration fees have covered only about 60 or 70 percent of roadway expenditures across all levels of U.S. government. The remainder has been paid using property, income, and other taxes not related to transportation. These subsidies for driving reduce its cost and increase driving demand in the United States.
from here: https://www.citylab.com/transp... [citylab.com]
This article is much more in line with other articles:
A new report from the Tax Foundation shows 50.7 percent of America’s road spending comes from gas taxes, tolls, and other fees levied on drivers. The other 49.3 percent? Well, that comes from general tax dollars, just like education and health care. The way we spend on roads has nothing to do with the free market, or even how much people use roads.
“Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways,” writes the Tax Foundation’s Joseph Henchman. Another $28 billion of that $155 billion comes from revenue from the federal gas tax.
from here: https://usa.streetsblog.org/20... [streetsblog.org]
Most other studies seem to hover around that 50% mark. T
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They already do that [reddit.com].
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Re:Why blame Amtrak? (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, having no Internet access is a bad deal for Virginians, but maybe the state representative should be doing something about that instead of bitching to Amtrak.
Have you even been to West Virginia? High-speed internet service is a major technical challenge there because of the geography. It's really mountainous and sparsely-populated. You can barely even get 3G service outside the cities unless you're near an Interstate or state highway. Good places to put towers that effectively cover a large area few and far between.
On top of that, there is a complete lack of cell service, Wi-fi or even microwaves on the central-eastern side of the state because of the Green Bank Observatory. (If you don't know about this, read up on it because it's actually really interesting [cnn.com].)
Re:Why blame Amtrak? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Many stores deal with the "no credit card" part in their self-check-out lanes by taking cash and giving change...
But, again, dealing with someone that does not have, or may not WANT, a credit/debit card may also involve dealing with someone who isn't "computer savvy" enough to deal with a kiosk. I know people who would rather walk away than deal with a kiosk, which is why Wendys still has order takers, even when they install order kiosks.
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And also break down regularly and offer no customer service whatsoever. Or should they be required to have a cell phone so they can call to determine how to get to where they want?
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Just a normal federal worker...
Re: Why blame Amtrak? (Score:4, Informative)
https://www.fra.dot.gov/Page/P0249 [dot.gov]
They also got over a Billion dollars in 2009 as part of ARRA.
So, if a Senator has clout and says Hop, they should check back for parameters after they are in the air...
Re: Why blame Amtrak? (Score:4)
In the US, no transportation mode earns enough in fares to pay for its costs. Interstate highways are free or tolled . Airlines use airports owned by the federal government and unprofitable routes are subsidized by the government, too.
One helpful treatment on this subject is The Economics of Public Issues (16th Edition) by Miller, Benjamin, North.
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If they have telephones and electricity, and they do, then broadband can be deployed there as well, and it will be easier than the original installation of either of those earlier services since service corridors, conduits, etc. already exist. In 2000 95.3% of all housing units in West Virginia had landline telephones. [census.gov]
It may take something like the Rural Electrification Act of 1936 to make it happen, but that is the point. Representatives of rural areas should be pushing for this hard.
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Not _just_like_ the Rural electrification act...that pig fuck is still sinking a billion/year for nothing but rent seeking from utilities of rich suburbs and industrial farms. Worst example you could come up with.
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Have you even been to West Virginia? High-speed internet service is a major technical challenge there because of the geography. It's really mountainous and sparsely-populated.
Colorado has much worse terrain -- higher mountains, more snow, etc. -- and yet Colorado finished wiring all of its county seats wth high-speed, fiber-optic broadband Internet back in 2014: Wired Internet arrives in Silverton, finally [denverpost.com]
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Do they have cable? Probably in most places, because the lure of profit was enough for them to put down the wires a few decades ago.
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You don't need high speeds to buy a ticket off Amtrak.
It depends how the web page to do so is structured. My DSL line seems to struggle sometimes, due to the amount of stuff web pages sometimes seem to require.
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Can you get that Internet access to his constituents instantaneously? Because if you can't, folks in places like Cumberland still have to find a way to book travel.
I don't know if you've traveled through Appalachia, but a lot of it's incredibly remote. I don't see this as punitive at all.
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Sometimes, to build a civilised society, you don't just need rights (e.g. to travel) but also put in checks and regulations to ensure people can reasonably exercise that right at some minimum level*. I would say that requiring Amtrak to put in ticketing agents (one per state - not a huge burden), although it might also be reasonable to expect the states or Federal government to cover to the net cost.
* We could argue forever on what constitutes a 'minimum level', though.
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A "privately operated company" that only still exists because of decades of government support.
They're "privately operat[ing]" on government handouts. So, yeah, seems pretty reasonable to me that the government gets a say in how they operate. You might question whether they should be operating at all, but that's a separate question.
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I actually disagree. Amtrak is funded at least partially by the government. It's supposed to be there as the alternative to expensive flying, a cheaper way for everyone to get around, not just those with internet access.
Internet elitists should not be the lowest common denominator to take a train unless they want to stop taking tax money.
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Not until its economical. You can drive 50 miles to Omaha, where flights are cheap.
If you want to continue running empty trains all over the prairie, you can pay the actual cost.
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Not until its economical. You can drive 50 miles to Omaha, where flights are cheap.
What if you don't drive or don't have a car? Does the cost of the flight also include the cost of that trip (and back), or parking the car for the duration of the time spent away? If not, it's not a reasonable comparison.
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Then you don't live in Nebraska. Have you ever been to Nebraska?
50 miles is not a long way in America. Sure Europeans cross two borders in that distance.
Include the cost of gas and parking in the air cost. But include meals on the trip and wasted time in the rail cost. Not that you have too, rail fare will be _much_ more than airfare + drive cost + parking.
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Also: I was in no way supporting the coast to coast Zephyr. That's the first line to be shutdown. The Zephyr up the CA coast is a cruise ship.
Also: Scenic...in Nebraska? LOL. Almost as scenic as Iowa and Kansas.
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So it really should be Nebraska paying Iowa and Illinois for access to shipping routes in the great lakes, rather than Iowa and Illinois paying Nebraska to access Wyoming.
That said, there are other reasons to support Nebraska financially.
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The alternative is shutting down the empty money sinks, not Nebraska paying for it. If they were asked to pay for it, they would shut it down. It really is useless.
Most goods are shipped as far as possible via boat. The only roads in Nebraska that are used to ship goods long distance (basically I-80) are maintained with federal money, granted, almost entirely from federal gas taxes.
Nebraska should be paying for a share of the Missouri and Mississippi river lock systems. How their crops reach market. Lo
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Yes, having no Internet access is a bad deal for Virginians, but maybe the state representative should be doing something about that instead of bitching to Amtrak.
West Virginians. Don't lump us in with those hillbillies. :-)
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Who says he isn't?
And in the meantime, he's making things better in small ways as quickly as he can.
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Or just buy your ticket from the conductor like you can in many places around the world. You still need someone at the station though to at least sweep up and clean the restroom and chase the skateboarders away.
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We have cooperatives that already do this and already serve vast areas in West Virginia.
It's not access that's the problem. It's the cost. There are two satellite internet companies and one of them can be resold through cooperatives. DSL can be universally available now that we have g.Fast and ADSL loop extenders at very low cost, again through cooperatives.
Even more seriously, though, Amtrak station agents need to remain.
Why not install POS terminals instead? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Or they could just buy the tickets on the train. Train rides aren't like air travel. You can show up, get on, and pay when the guy comes by to see your ticket. A much saner law would have been Amtrak isn't allowed to charge an on-board surcharge when the station has no in-person ticketing available.
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Maybe they could even do this under the new law- "we DO have ticket agents in every state- in fact, there is at least one on every train!"
The only problem I see with that is that a ticket agent / desk helps with scheduling and whatnot- maybe that could be replaced by pamphlets or posted schedules at the train station?
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Or they could just buy the tickets on the train. Train rides aren't like air travel. You can show up, get on, and pay when the guy comes by to see your ticket. A much saner law would have been Amtrak isn't allowed to charge an on-board surcharge when the station has no in-person ticketing available.
As I noted earlier, many people like to know how much travel will cost before making it. Without a ticket agent they can't. Or know if they are getting the correct, cheapest fare in some instances.
Because lots of old folks can't use them (Score:2)
I don't like Joe Manchin one bit. He just sold us all out to Wall Street (along with a bunch of other Dems ) by repealing Dodd-Frank (in pieces so nobody would notice). Thanks to him and his right wing / pro corp ilk we're gonna have a major crash in about 4-6 years (just in time for a Democrat to take the Whitehouse and the blame). I hate the guy, but this seems reasonable.
Re: Why not install POS terminals instead? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Hollerin.
Cash sales and changes... (Score:2)
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I'd argue that the ability to buy tickets for cash is a good enough reason to have ticket agents.
Oh, I guess we'll see, really soon, that train ticket agents get a DHS agent setup at their booths. If you buy a ticket with cash, you'll have your face photographed, your thumb fingerprinted, and your mouth swabbed for a DNA sample.
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Most of Continental Europe doesn't enough of a fuck to increase surveillance, especially further East -- they learned the lessons of authoritarianism under the Soviets.
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They should still have agents for other reasons, primarily because there's always people who can't use the kiosks, because of disability or just not understanding it. Or at least don't have a cash surcharge for on train purchase.
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NJ Transit figured this out a while ago, all the stations have kiosks that accept cash, and even give change in bills.
Portland does this too -- at least when I visited there way back when -- but their kiosks gave change in dollar coins. Their transit system used (uses?) the honor system in that no ticket check is done to ride, but you'll get a fine if caught w/o a ticket in a random check by a patrol person.
Make up your mind (Score:5, Insightful)
If Amtrak is expected to make a profit, or at least survive on its own, then it must have the ability to allocate resources as needed, including not devoting resources to markets that aren't profitable.
However if Amtrak is expected to serve markets that aren't going to be sustainable, make it a public utility supported by public (ie, tax) money.
Re:Make up your mind (Score:5, Interesting)
So expecting Amtrak to be profitable on its own is unrealistic. You need to subsidize it to the same degree you're subsidizing freeways just to level the playing field. And when you subsidize a small service to that degree, politicians start to play around with how the money should be spent.
* The idea back when freeways were first made was that trucks could transport goods from endpoint to endpoint, eliminating the need for expensive labor-intensive loading and unloading stages, where people at the railyard have to move cargo from the train onto a truck to make it to its final destination, or vice versa. The labor of the loading/unloading stages was the predominant cost to cargo transport at the time, so eliminating it was an economically sound idea. But since then, fuel costs have increased substantially, and the advent of container transport has reduced loading/unloading costs. But we're still stuck with a cargo transport system built based on the old cost structure, which is artificially keeping trucks competitive with trains for long-distance transport.
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Amtrak has always been insanely subsidized. Passenger rail _sucks_ for areas with low population density, it just can't compete.
American freight rail is better than Europe's, by any metric you care to pick. Because our rail system is optimized for freight, not passengers.
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1.4 billion dollars of federal subsidy. 31.3 million riders. $50 subsidy for the average trip. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Getting from those two numbers to 94% fare box recovery is federal accounting. Is the average ticket price really $1000?
Total revenue: 2.2 billion. Wait a second...Shenanigans!
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If the roads weren't so heavily subsidized, the U.S. would be more like Europe and would make greater use of rail transport for both cargo and people
The biggest problem is population density. In areas where population is dense, we already have pretty good transit systems in the US. Even in smaller towns like Modesto, CA you can get around without a car.
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Even in smaller towns like Modesto, CA you can get around without a car.
You certainly can. I mean, if you have 2 feet you can travel the entire continental US. Whether you want to depends on how much your time is worth. A 7 minute drive from the Modesto Airport to downtown is a 36 minute journey by public transport.
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The long distance freight trains should pull into a yard close to a major highway intersection like I-75 on I-80. A whole bunch of containers get off on one side, a
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Containers should have a small batter and wheels to "self" drive and get off the road tractor trailer frames and get on to railroad cars and vice versa. The battery should have some small range, like 1 mile at 10 mph.
These vehicles would still have to use the road network, so they need to be able to operate at traffic speeds. It makes much more sense to make delivery vehicles capable of picking up full containers — something similar to the PODS self-storage trucks, only more serious, for larger containers. They only need to make local trips, so they don't need much range (as you say.)
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envisaged... expected to be... can be designed...
Elon has a lot of great ideas and makes a lot of promises. But until an electric truck is sold by the thousands to shipping companies, there's no point bringing it up. Where's the $35,000 electric car that he promised back in 2016? Oh, right, it's actually $50,000 [autotrader.com].
The railroads should design very low floor flat bed cars. Containers should have a small batter and wheels to "self" drive and get off the road tractor trailer frames and get on to railroad cars and vice versa. The battery should have some small range, like 1 mile at 10 mph.
I don't see how this would be faster than using cranes. Or cheaper for that matter.
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Amtrak runs on freight lines for all but Accella, where it runs partly on freight lines.
The only profitable lines for Amtrak are in the NE corridor. Perhaps a few short, extended commuter lines. The rest should be shut down, yesterday.
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Like I said, extended commuter lines. Capitol corridor etc.
Those really ought to be profitable.
National Radio Quiet Zone. (Score:3)
The National Radio Quiet Zone covers a large part of West Virginia. The "lack of Internet" is by design, though I guess wired Internet is still possible. No WiFi, satellite Internet, or cell service allowed to protect radio telescopes from interference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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commuter rail still has the hole punch (Score:2)
commuter rail still has the hole punch
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So, no bill to ... (Score:2)
... provide internet to 30% of the goddam state?
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Never heard of that, so thank you for the education. (Seriously)
From Wikipedia:
This makes cable and satellite all but essential for acceptable television in much of the region.
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Wouldn't it make it more cost effective to leave it?
FTTP/cable/ADSL would have a much more exclusive control of the area due to other options not being allowed ensuring a higher take rate.
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Not sure about Amtrak... (Score:2)
Have Amtrak tickes sold at post offices (Score:4, Interesting)
Ol'Musky will fix this! (Score:2)
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There are at least 3 different companies working on launching their own LEO constellations right now with targets of 50Mbps, 1Gbps and 10Gbps.
Hopefully at least one of them makes it to market but until one does it's just vaporware.
pick up the phone (Score:2)
Since when was the internet the only means of long-distance communication ? For the purpose of purchasing a ticket, a phone is a perfectly reasonable thing to use.
What makes the senator think that availability of the internet will suddenly address W. Virginians' apparent aversity to using credit cards ?
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There are any number of solutions to that. For example:
infrastucture (Score:2)
Invest in it. Hard to do so under libertarian economy? The vector of progress is from libertarianism of Somalia towards 90% tax brackets "which US never ever ever had" (oh, wait).
The senator should go back to his sister-wife and shut his imbecile Republican (? no, actually, believe or not, this imbecile is a Democrat) yapper.
Requiring Amtrak agents isn't the right response (Score:2)
Having some way to buy tickets from an agent is important - not only for people with no internet access, but also for the unbanked population. But there is no reason to require that Amtrak employ those agents. In some states, an agency agreement for somebody else to sell the tickets might be a suitable solution, rather than requiring an Amtrak employee who will be idle most of the time. (Some Amtrak locations are served by only two trains per day, one in each direction.) The agent could be a local transit a
Overlooking So Many Obvious Other Solutions (Score:3)
Let's not even talk about the fact Amtrak is one of the more expensive options for long distance travel. Using my upcoming vacation as an example; Amtrak doesn't offer actual train service to Las Vegas...so you have to take the train to L.A. and then spend almost 7 hours on a bus. This is $280 each way and a travel time of 72 hours each way! Meanwhile, $180 gets me on a flight to Las Vegas that has a total travel time (including short layover/plane switch) of just the Amtrak bus segment! Mind you, this is also for just a coach seat on Amtrak; so have fun spending 18 hours riding to Chicago and then 42 hours to LA...in a coach seat.
Amtrak isn't attracting new customers because no one wants to pay that much more for a "lower" level of service; it has nothing to do with the availability of ticket agents. I really have to question doing something for "disadvantaged populations" that's typically a more expensive option too. If someone is that bad off, they're likely to want to really save the pennies and won't consider Amtrak at $300 if they can ride a bus for less money. Greyhound directly to Vegas is about $208 and takes about 60 hours. If I'm "disadvantaged", I'm probably saving the $78 and taking Greyhound and actually get there faster.
The lack of a credit card or other banking isn't what it used to be either. You can get reloadable cards now...they've been a thing for years. There's also the thing of you can still pay cash at the ticket counters of most airlines. You can even usually call ahead to reserve and they'll give you 24 hours to show up and pay. It might cost a little bit more...and you might have some extra screening. But if you don't want that, you can just go back and pay more for the slower, less comfortable option.
There are a few legitimate reasons...but these can be overcome other ways. Why not let a third-party sell the tickets? Go to your local Western Union outlet and purchase them; sell them at the post office; visit a local travel agent and pay them cash to get your tickets.
This just seems like a very shallow act by a politician trying to make it seem like he's "helped" people. He's done something for a few people that we'll all have to pay for. It also seems like a very lazy solution for people who can't be bothered to actually think.
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Because the National Radio Quiet Zone prohibits WiFi, satellite internet, and cell service in a large part of W. Va. to protect radio astronomy telescopes from interference. The "lack of Internet" is due to this, I suspect, not because of poverty or lack of will.
Fiber, as specified by the poster to which you are replying, does not interfere with radiotelescopes. In 2000 than they had landlines running to 95.3% of all housing units in West Virginia. It can be done with fiber as well.
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Bullshit. Lineman is a dangerous job. A trained, experienced team of linemen can't hang a mile/day.
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Where do you live that your poles are 300 ft apart? Rural poles might be 300 ft apart for simple runs, urban less.
You can't assume the poles are empty. Linemen have to deal with the lines already there, and make sure the new lines they put up aren't blocking access to anything important. Deal with surprises they find on the pole and adjust plans. Sometimes move another service.
Half an hour per pole? That will cover the 'butt/head scratching' and 'looking at it' aspect.
A mile/day is insanely optimisti
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Hiring one salesperson is cheaper than building all that stuff.
And you can do both in parallel too; if the infrastructure ever does get built, then you can lay off the salesperson when they're no longer needed. But until then...
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Because some people are perfectly happy not having internet? And their taxes in theory at least partially pay for Amtrak.
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Yeah, but do they really need a ticket agent when there isn't a train picking up passengers? You could put the ticket booth on the train itself and cater to all of un-manned stations with just one agent. Or forget the booth and just have the conductor sell tickets to people who didn't pre-buy them.
If the train doesn't even have a conductor then.. I guess they don't care if people pay, even?
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"...that will force Amtrak to employ at least one ticketing agent in every state that it serves"
What part of "every state that it serves" do you not understand?
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You mean along the right-of-way and accesses already used by electricity and telephone landlines? This is already a solved problem. Like everywhere else, you lay fiber along the same routes.
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Watch the definitions.
Willing to bet the 30% is where wired broadband internet is unavailable. Not the % that don't have access to a phone, data plan and someplace with 1 bar.
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If it's a good enough definition for Bangladesh it's good enough for W. Virginia. 'Apples to apples' is my point.
I'm old, I've 'lived and worked' on 300 baud dial up, well 'lived and gone to school' on 300 baud dial up anyhow. Ran small business IT efforts on a 10 Mbit LAN (and liked it), IIRC our modems were up to a screaming 14.4 by then. Soon after that we got a fractional T1, then we were really rocking.
An edge connection would have been luxury. People can cope, you have to adjust, but it's doable.