Please create an account to participate in the Slashdot moderation system

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Transportation Technology

Germany Launches World's First Autonomous Tram (theguardian.com) 92

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report: The world's first autonomous tram was launched in unspectacular style in the city of Potsdam, west of Berlin, on Friday. The Guardian was the first English-language newspaper to be offered a ride on the vehicle developed by a team of 50 computer scientists, engineers, mathematicians, and physicists at the German engineering company Siemens. Fitted with multiple radar, lidar (light from a laser), and camera sensors, forming digital eyes that film the tram and its surroundings during every journey, the tram reacts to trackside signals and can respond to hazards faster than a human. Its makers say it is some way from being commercially viable but they do expect it to contribute to the wider field of driverless technology, and have called it an important milestone on the way to autonomous driving. Travelling in real traffic from the tram depot of Potsdam's transport company ViP, the articulated Combino model tram whirred its way through a high-rise housing settlement in the south-eastern district of Stern on Friday, contending with bikes, prams and cars which sometimes haphazardly crossed its path during the 3.7-mile (6km) route.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Germany Launches World's First Autonomous Tram More

Germany Launches World's First Autonomous Tram

Comments Filter:

  • Autonomous trains are so easy that hobbyists have been doing it in O and HO and N scale in their basements for 40 years.

    I've seen plenty of autonomous trains and trams. What about Disney's famous peoplemover experiment?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by AlanObject ( 3603453 )

      What about Disney's famous peoplemover experiment?

      Or for that matter the automated inter-terminal trams found in Denver, San Francisco, Dallas, or dozens of other major airports all around the world?

      All those systems are automated and remote monitored and extremely high reliability while being very highly utilized and relied upon. Imagine the chaos if one of those automated rail systems went down at a busy time. So they have to have damn near five-nines availability and they seem to.

      • Re:I call bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

        by starless ( 60879 ) on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:34AM (#57368244)

        Most (all?) inter-terminal airport trams I've seen don't have anything else that can occupy their tracks.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by mjwx ( 966435 )

          Most (all?) inter-terminal airport trams I've seen don't have anything else that can occupy their tracks.

          All of the inter-terminal trains I've seen have had completely enclosed tracks. Its closer to automating the Las Vegas monorail, not much of anything is expected to be on the tracks. We over here in Europe and the UK would call those trains rather than trams.

          The trams in Potsdam and many other European cities are run along roads which also have car and goods vehicle traffic. A tram is a light rail system following existing streets, in fact the colloquial difference between a train and a tram is that tram

      • contending with bikes, prams and cars

        What's a pram??

      • The Atlanta airport has had an automated tram for years. Although I think they made a mistake getting rid of the Cylon themed dialect they used for the in-transit announcements. Now it's just another generic female voice.

    • I get the feeling that you are not a Train Operator/Engineer, neither am I. However I expect a full scale version of such a job is much more complex, then your Hobby train set (where if the train derailed, you just pick it up and put it back on the track). Also many of these other sources are rather closed track systems, not dealing with multiple I/O, complex weather and track conditions.

      • I have operated a vehicle like this, a light rail vehicle operating in traffic. It does seem to be a good use case for autonomy. While the requirements would be less than a car, it's definitely more than one operating in a loop on a closed course like at an airport. There are obstacles to contend with. While the track may be separate, there is car traffic to watch out for as well as pedestrians who step out in front of you. Unlike a car, you don't have the option to swerve around an obstacle but are limi

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Just install some pinball flippers and you're good to go.

        • but I would think that discerning intent would be harder. A person just outside your path that's looking at you, waiting for you to pass is different than a person at the same spot with their back to you wearing headphones.

          I live and drive in a college town. No, there really is no difference in the intent you can infer from either person.

          I also wonder how long before these types of vehicles are targets of mischief.

          The fact that it wasn't on it's virgin trip is remarkable, and can only be attributed to the fact it was a secret. Now it isn't.

        • Actually, just define a minimum safe distance to the side, and for the guy just waiting watching the train, blare horns and lights at him until he moves. Isn't that your only real option anyway for some idiot blocking the right of way?

          Of course, there was that one time I was on the historical trolley in Astoria, Oregon that some idiot parked his minivan across the tracks. Was really good to have a human operator in that situation to run into the restaurant and warn people before it got towed away (didn't

          • Isn't that your only real option anyway for some idiot blocking the right of way?

            Stopping might be a nice thing to do. The trams in Munich don't have horns. They have bells. They also have brakes.

            ... that some idiot parked his minivan across the tracks. Was really good to have a human operator in that situation to run into the restaurant and warn people before it got towed away

            If all you can do it honk the horn and flash lights, then what was left to be towed away? You mean the trolley actually stopped? Hmmm..... I've been on the Astoria trolley and I know it, too, has brakes.

            • The brakes are never enough. The light rail in Portland can take a half a block with the wheels locked up to stop. But once you are stopped, what is your option? You're stuck. Lights and horns are all you have.

              Yeah, but that hundred year old trolley goes real slow. And isn't pulling a few thousand tons behind it. And doesn't even have any good warning equipment.

              But it does have really cool reversable seats.

              • The brakes are never enough.

                Funny, I've seen trams stop using nothing but their brakes. I've seen them stop to keep from hitting a car in their path.

                The light rail in Portland can take a half a block with the wheels locked up to stop.

                There is a phrase in the law that deals with cars that don't stop in time to keep from hitting someone or something: too fast for conditions. It supersedes any engineering design factors concerning maximum speed, and can mean that someone going just 25 MPH in a 65 MPH zone will get a ticket.

                Portland light rail is also not a tram. It's a train.

                But once you are stopped, what is your option? You're stuck.

                You are stuck until the thing you've stopped

      • "Also many of these other sources are rather closed track systems, not dealing with multiple I/O, complex weather and track conditions"

        OTOH, they don't need complex map software, no steering necessary, no doubling and in all the countries with trams, they always have the absolute priority of way, because due to their iron on iron wheels abrupt stopping is impossible. They also don't care about snow or ice on the tracks.
        What multiple inputs? They just have to watch in front of them and the only decision the

        • OTOH, they don't need complex map software, no steering necessary,

          Many of the cities I've been that have trams really do have "steering" to worry about. Not that they have a steering wheel, but they have to identify a failure of the switching mechanism that has them turning when they shouldn't have, or vice versa. For example, in Munich, almost all the trams go by either the north or south or east side of the HBF, and they get switched into different tracks as the spread out around the city.

          they always have the absolute priority of way,

          "Priority of way" (right of way?) is a legal concept, not a physical reality. A tr

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Sique ( 173459 )
          Just because a tram or light rail has right of way doesn't mean that the track is always clear. There are traffic lights, there are people crossing the rails, there are obstacles, and there might even be stop and go if the track runs along a traffic lane. The amount of caution necessary to operate a tram or light rail is about the same than a car, just the number of possible reactions is limited. And a tram needs mapping software too, as the switches are operated from the train, so for every branch, the aut

      • It didn't come up on a google search, but a few years ago CxO had a runaway swticher engine. It made it 250 miles before it ran out of diesel, and nobody got hurt, all the automated systems worked perfectly.

        The biggest stress most engineers have to worry about today is boredom.

    • A model train doesn't have to contend with the little plastic people and cars moving across it's path. The Peoplemover also ran on a enclosed track without pedestrian or vehicle traffic to worry about. The most innovative thing about the Peoplemover was the moving sidewalk which allowed passengers to enter and exit without stopping the cars.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by starless ( 60879 )

      Except that it's not a train with exclusive use of the tracks, it's a tram
      "contending with bikes, prams and cars which sometimes haphazardly crossed its path"

      • No train is going to stop on a dime, they're too massive in comparison to the brakes- but I would say Lidar and Radar and a computer reacting in nanoseconds beats a human operator with a latency between brain and hand of 40 ms all hollow.

  • Before any of you SDC fanbois start gushing about how impressive and wonderful this is and how it somehow proves that SDCs are more than they really are (which they're not): This is a train (even if they're calling it a 'tram'), it runs on a track (not maneuvering around freely on an open public road), and there's still a human being watching over it for when it screws up, so (hopefully) no one dies. The article claiming how it's a 'milestone for autonomous vehicles' is just more hype that's appropos of not

  • I can see the point of autonomous taxis, but in larger public transport (buses, trams, trains) the cost of the drivers wages is not that significant.

    • I think safety is a big concern. In the states (granted our train system is nearly a century out of date) however there have been some high profile accidents due to human error.

    • in larger public transport (buses, trams, trains) the cost of the drivers wages is not that significant.

      A bus costs about $200k and has a service life of about 12 years. An urban bus driver makes about $40k, and they usually run in two shifts, so that is $80k. Add in benefits and overhead, and weekend shifts, and the payroll cost is $150k annually to keep one bus operating. Over the 12 year life of the bus, that is $1.8M.

      For buses, the cost of the driver far exceeds the cost of either the bus or the fuel.

    • Serious question. why would you say driver's wages are not that significant? They have to do shifts, vacations, covering, redundancy, overtime...

      I would imagine they'd be among the largest operational costs of running the transit. What else is there? fuel?

      Capital and Maintenance costs would be there as well.

      I just did a quick google.
      https://ny.curbed.com/2018/1/3... [curbed.com]

      https://www4.uwm.edu/cuts/utp/... [uwm.edu]

      Driver cost is a very large expense.
      "Here, there are several reasons, one of which is labor; the biggest singl

    • I can see the point of autonomous taxis, but in larger public transport (buses, trams, trains) the cost of the drivers wages is not that significant.

      Napkin math disagrees. A typical downtown streetcar probably averages 20 kph including stops. A quick google search says the typical streetcar driver makes about $20/hour. That's $1/km in wages to run one car. Google also says a bus burns 25l/100km. At $1/liter, that's $0.25/km in fuel costs to run one diesel bus (and so presumably diesel streetcar), and electric will be cheaper to run.

      If the cost of wages disappears, formerly unprofitable hours and routes become viable. Less viable routes could even be ser

  • ...nobody has as firm and universal a faith in the infallibility of technology as Germans.

    To be fair, no people on the planet have as much REASON to believe in the infallibility of tech as Germans, either.

    I know it's stereotyping, but I've worked for a German firm my entire adult life. I have around 30 years of examples.

    • Yeah, we only have to look at the clean diesel technology coming out of Germany for an example of how great their tech is.
      • That has nothing to do with failed tech, it has to do with the imminent sunset of the internal combustion engine, and how impossible it is to create one that isn't contributing to human-caused global warming, or at the very least, contributing to air pollution in general. Fully electric vehicles are going to be the future, but we're just not quite there yet.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by 110010001000 ( 697113 )
          Thats great, but it still doesn't change the fact that the idea of German technological superiority is a myth, especially in transportation.

      • >we only have to look at the clean diesel technology coming out of Germany for an example of how great their tech is

        The technology of using Urea to neutralize NOx works perfectly (and will soon be added to Direct-injection gasoline cars too). For manufacturers like Chevrolet, Mercedes, BMW, Mack, Caterpillar, et cetera the neutralization works so well, NOx levels are essentially zero.

        The only time it does Not work is when a company like Volkswagen decides "let's not install it, so we can save money." O

        • The only time it does Not work is when a company like Volkswagen decides "let's not install it, so we can save money." Obviously the tech can not work if it has never been installed!

          When you say "a company like Volkswagen", you do mean "a German automaker [nytimes.com]", right?

  • It's one lever away from an amusement park ride

    (Not really. But I couldn't resist.)

  • That's great but can it anticipate a hazard beforehand? I give an example of a dog that broke free from it's owner and is rumbling down a hill towards the road, will an autonomous vehicle see this and slow down or just go full speed ahead and only react once the dog is on the road in it's path and too late to stop in time?
    • The dirty secret is that the autonomous vehicle has a driver in it to react to situations like that. But some company made a bundle selling electronics on the taxpayer dime.

    • If you RTFA they give an example where a baby carriage is pushed in front of the train, and it stops. In another example two teens walk in front of the train, and it slows down just enough to let them pass, and then resumes normal speed.

  • More autonomous progress (Score:3)

    by 110010001000 ( 697113 ) on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:35AM (#57368248) Homepage Journal
    First line: "“This is the type of situation I face every day,” said the tram driver, who has 25 years of experience under his belt, as he rang his bell."

    Why do all these "autonomous" vehicles always have a driver or two? Amazing. I am sure it is right around the corner though. Tesla has a breakthrough AI chip which will fix it.
    • ..and said chip will run on bitcoins !!

      • Make an alt coin based on neural net / deep learning / AI bullshit. (NeuralCoin, DeepCoin, AICoin, etc. probably all already exist).

    • First line: "“This is the type of situation I face every day,” said the tram driver, who has 25 years of experience under his belt, as he rang his bell."

      Why do all these "autonomous" vehicles always have a driver or two? Amazing. I am sure it is right around the corner though. Tesla has a breakthrough AI chip which will fix it.

      Why? Because people don't trust them to run alone yet. Neither the public, nor the companies producing them. Autonomous works for 99% of things- but they haven't got that last 1% ironed out yet- once the do and only once they do there will be humans around. That last 1% is going to be the hardest 1% and the longest 1%.

  • I'm not sure what the excitement is about, but lots of airports I've been to have Autonomous Trams. SFO in San Francisco, for example, has an autonomous tram that goes several miles from the BART station to all the terminals. I've also been in similar trams in Atlanta, Oakland, and I'm sure other places.

    • I'm not sure what the excitement is about, but lots of airports I've been to have Autonomous Trams. SFO in San Francisco, for example, has an autonomous tram that goes several miles from the BART station to all the terminals. I've also been in similar trams in Atlanta, Oakland, and I'm sure other places.

      The trains in Atlanta airport are anonymous. I don't recall seeing any autonomous trams in Atlanta. Not that I spend much time in downtown Atlanta, but I don't recall seeing ANY trams on the streets of Atlanta. Do they have them? Maybe I've just been to the wrong parts of Atlanta where streets are car only.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Those are essentially light trains. This is an actual tram, that rides a track in traffic.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Sique ( 173459 )
      And all those airport people mover have pedestrian level crossings, traffic lights, heavy trucks doing U-turns on their tracks, obstacles lying around in their way, trees falling down in heavy weather, cars piling up on their tracks because they share the lane with them etc.pp. Do you know what happens if you drop something on the autonomous track in SFO or LAX? The whole system including all carts and stations shuts down until the obstacle is removed. Do you want that in a tram system serving a whole town

  • Public employees' transportation unions have a lot of political clout. Even if you can get driverless light rail trains installed in a major city there would still be a "driver" required to sit in the control booth pulling a salary and racking up a pension.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by havana9 ( 101033 )
      There are actually in service light rail veichels without drivers, like the VAL system, that was designe and put in operation in the '80s ol the line #14 of the MEtro Paris where the trains don't have a driver cabin [wikipedia.org], and the train are derived from a normal one with a driver cabin.
      And we're in France where when people got angry head literally rolled
      So it's not an union problem. Of yourese you need to have guard to control sthe stations, enginners to verifiy the correct operation, maintenance personnel, an
  • I'm skeptical that you'd ever be able to fully get away from having a locomotive engineer in the cab. PTC (positive train control) allows trains to have enforced speed limits and automatically kicks them in if the engineer doesn't respond in time. It also locks out sections of track occupied by another train to prevent collisions. But there are too many spots where cameras and lidar wouldn't pick up in time on idiot cars or environmental hazards blocking the tracks due to buildings, curves, and vegetatio

  • We have them here in Melbourne and I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been a much faster focus on trains, buses and trams for automation. Especially trams (I know some trains have no drivers, Singapore was very surprising / exciting / weird)

    Trams though, share the road with stupid drivers, pedestrians, cyclists etc - none the less, they do have a standard track, obviously a fixed a to b running. Sometimes, rarely, the driver needs to exit the vehicle to manually move the track with a metal bar, unfortun

Slashdot Top Deals

Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man -- who has no gills. -- Ambrose Bierce

Close