45 Out of 50 Electronics Companies Illegally Void Warranties After Independent Repair, Sting Operation Finds (vice.com) 79
U.S. PIRG -- a non-profit that uses grassroots methods to advocate for political change -- found that 90 percent of manufacturers it contacted claimed that a third party repair would void its warranty. "PIRG researched the warranty information of 50 companies in the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers (AHAM) -- an industry group of notorious for lobbying to protect is repair monopolies -- and found that 45 of them claimed independent repair would void their warranty," Motherboard reports. From the report: PIRG poured over the documentation for 50 companies such as Bissell, Whirlpool, and Panasonic to document their warranty policies. When it couldn't find clear language about warranty and repair, it reached out to the companies via their customer service lines. The overwhelming majority of the companies told PIRG that independent repair would void the warranty.
The 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act states that no manufacturer who charges more than $5 for a product can put repair restrictions on a product they're offering a warranty on. In May, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission sent warning letters to Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, HTC, Hyundai, and ASUS for violating the act by threatening to void the warranties of customers who repaired their own devices. Within 30 days, many of the companies had complied and changed the language on their websites around independent repair. It was a step in the right direction, but the PIRGs survey of the AHAM members shows that there's still a lot of work to do.
The 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act states that no manufacturer who charges more than $5 for a product can put repair restrictions on a product they're offering a warranty on. In May, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission sent warning letters to Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, HTC, Hyundai, and ASUS for violating the act by threatening to void the warranties of customers who repaired their own devices. Within 30 days, many of the companies had complied and changed the language on their websites around independent repair. It was a step in the right direction, but the PIRGs survey of the AHAM members shows that there's still a lot of work to do.
Ill give you Panasonic... (Score:5, Interesting)
Try asking the following companies about their warranties:
Dell
Toshiba
Samsung
Apple
Intel
Vizio
TCL
JVC
Get back to me when you have the results...
Re:Ill give you Panasonic... (Score:5, Insightful)
But Whirlpool, Bissell, and other makers of Home Appliances are not necessarily "Electronics Companies". Sure, they make things with electronics IN them, but a washing machine is more than just a circuit board.
Try asking the following companies about their warranties:
Dell
Toshiba
Samsung
Apple
Intel
Vizio
TCL
JVC
Get back to me when you have the results...
The easiest solution is to just document the warranty violation, pay for the repair, and then send a certified letter to their HQ with care of "Legal Department".
Give them 30 days to respond.
When/if they ignore you simply open a case in small claims with the letter you sent, the violation of the warranty, and sit back. Most of the time, the company will just settle with you out of court for the cost of whatever you demand for the cost.
Yes it's a hassle and it sucks it has to come to this, but sometimes it's the only way.
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The price of small claims court can add up very quickly. Based on https://personalfinance.costhe... [costhelper.com],
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That site is definitely not indicative of the small claims experience in New York, even in New York City.
New York sets a limit of $5k for small claims. Filing fee is $15-$20. They send notice via certified letter for you - it's only if this is undeliverable that you need to serve notice which can be done by literally anyone 18+ and not a party to the lawsuit. Your buddy can do it, no need to pay a process server.
After that, you go to court. The large majority of cases are solved by arbitrators (not to b
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A few days of work to attend court is, for many of us, a very serious fiscal burden. Even at minimum wage, a wage of perhaps $12/hour after taxes, it's roughly $100/day that might be better spent elsewhere. I can certainly understand doing small claims court out of moral outrage, or if you feel you might get a better return on your investment. But for many people, between the court fees and the lost wages, it's unproductive.
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This could work great with that new Small Claims Bot
https://yro.slashdot.org/story... [slashdot.org]
This could get interesting...!
Re: Ill give you Panasonic... (Score:2)
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Then let them fight you in court claiming that your repair service damaged their hardware via careless static discharge. To figure this out requires some expensive equipment, which is going to increase the cost of the case. In my experience that equipment is going to justify their claim, whether it is true or not. It's pretty easy for ESD to damage modern silicon, and chances are there is latent damage already. They're not building these things to last anymore, it's all chinesium to one degree or another.
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The problem with 'normal' court is it's expensive - it's very much process-oriented to basically ensure lawyers get paid. You can go in without, but more likely you'll get your suit dismissed on one of many technical or procedural reasons before you ever get before a judge.
IF you manage to cross the proper T's and dot the specific I's requiring it...then you have a good chance of forcing a settlement because paying lawyers to go to court over peanuts is not economical for companies. Even for larger compan
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But Whirlpool, Bissell, and other makers of Home Appliances are not necessarily "Electronics Companies". Sure, they make things with electronics IN them, but a washing machine is more than just a circuit board.
Try asking the following companies about their warranties:
Dell
Toshiba
Samsung
Apple
Intel
Vizio
TCL
JVC
Get back to me when you have the results...
The easiest solution is to just document the warranty violation, pay for the repair, and then send a certified letter to their HQ with care of "Legal Department".
Give them 30 days to respond.
When/if they ignore you simply open a case in small claims with the letter you sent, the violation of the warranty, and sit back. Most of the time, the company will just settle with you out of court for the cost of whatever you demand for the cost.
Yes it's a hassle and it sucks it has to come to this, but sometimes it's the only way.
Go ahead and do that, and sit back and watch as they completely ignore your "Defective Service", especially if you address your "letter" to "Legal Department".
And when you try to sue them for ignoring you, they will win; because you DIDN'T inform them correctly.
There are ways to properly inform a corporation that they are being sued, or about to be sued, and that ain't it.
Re: Ill give you Panasonic... (Score:2)
So then what's the correct way?
It's a pretty jack ass thing to say it's wrong and not describe the correct way.
So enlighten us.
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So then what's the correct way?
It's a pretty jack ass thing to say it's wrong and not describe the correct way.
So enlighten us.
Google the term Registered Agent.
Re: Ill give you Panasonic... (Score:2)
I learned that the companies have these roving lawyers on retainer that fly from state to state either settling lawsuits or going trhough trial. Gone are the days that they settle before the court
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Get a list of the replacement parts for those Home Appliances. Sort by price. Now tell me what they are.
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However if I am going to pay $700 for a washer with Wi-Fi and the Wi-Fi breaks I should be able to fix the Wi-Fi, without worrying about bringing it back for a warranty replacement because I replaced the $20 Wi-Fi board. When the $300 motor broke.
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Didn't you read this /. post a few days ago:
Apple Said To Have 'Dramatically Reduced' Multi-Billion-Dollar iPhone Repair Fraud in China [slashdot.org]
How is a company to protect itself from fraud and still honor a warranty when the product's guts have been swapped out by a 3rd party chop shop?
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Easy. An iPhone shell containing only third-party pieces is just that - it is no longer an Apple product. If there are some apple parts left - clearly the warranty apply only to those.
However, an iPhone where a third-party put in a replacement battery, is still an Apple product. Apples warranty does obviously not apply to the replaced battery, but the rest. If the 'repair' is faulty - such as a battery with too high voltage, then the phone may be destroyed. But then, it wasn't a 'repair' but 'senseless de
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Didn't you read this /. post a few days ago:
Apple Said To Have 'Dramatically Reduced' Multi-Billion-Dollar iPhone Repair Fraud in China [slashdot.org]
How is a company to protect itself from fraud and still honor a warranty when the product's guts have been swapped out by a 3rd party chop shop?
Did YOU even read it? That article has nothing to do with preventing 3rd party repair and warranty status that this thread talks about. It DOES talk about people buying phone, removing parts, and returning them for replacement as 'defective'...and then using the parts they stole to fix other phones for profit.
The only vaguely relatable bit is they allowed whole-unit returns as defective.
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Especially this is based off a 1975 bill.
The nature of products including electronics was much different and much more easily fixed.
We can take a Commodore 64 or an Apple II computer which is broken, very easily open it up. And with a consumer grade volt meter we can normally find the problem component. De-solder it, and replace it with a working part, or put a connection to work around it. Any person with basic electrical engineering skills can do this type of work.
However today, even with a standard PC
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Don't get me wrong, I want my right to repair. however we need to realize repairing something today is different then it was in 1975
Exactly.
There is a VAST difference in the skill level required to diagnose and replace a shorted capacitor, burned resistor or even a busted transistor, and the equivalent skill needed to diagnose and REPLACE a 200-pin BGA SoC, or even a 128-lead LQFP packaged device.
At that point, even the authorized repair shops generally only do "board level" diagnosis and repair.
And since the cost of "being wrong" and replacing a whole board that turns out to NOT be the problem is so high, and the amount of labor you ha
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It's different and it's not...
Using a voltmeter and tracing logic to see which chip (or generally capacitor/diode) burned out in a C64 was pretty cutting edge skills for a consumer back then.
Equally cutting edge today would be replacing SMT components or reflowing solder (RROD anyone?). Granted, the equipment to do so and the general ability/desire to get that far into it is much less common but it still presents a fair analogy.
With tightly integrated components and highly complex systems, this isn't feasi
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To my knowledge, they aren't. But if the replaced part had nothing to do with the new fault, then they can't say "hey somebody else has replaced part A, we are not touching it, the whole thing is contaminated now, even this part B, and out of warranty"
This came up in the early days of the Mac mini, which was ostensibly "sealed".
When people figured out how to open the case and upgrade the hard drive and/or memory, Apple issued a statement that said that doing so would NOT void the warranty, so long as you didn't damage anything in the process.
Now, no snarky comments about "At least they could upgrade..." That wasn't the point, and you all know it.
Re:Why not use free repair under warranty? (Score:5, Informative)
Not everything is covered under most warranties.. If I decide to replace the icemaker in my fridge after my kid broke it, I shouldn't lose the compressor warranty because I repaired a part my kid broke that has nothing to do with the other parts.
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That may be true, but what if during the repair you did something that trickled down and impacted other components? Is the manufacturer still liable for the components that you incidentally broke?
No, of course not, but they would have to prove that, it is EXTREMELY fucking unlikely, so they would need EXTREME fucking evidence to have that hold up in court.
Re:Why not use free repair under warranty? (Score:5, Informative)
Because otherwise, too many manufacturers wanted to overcharge by crazy amounts for routine maintenance under threat of voiding warranties. So, for example if you decided to change your own oil for a few bucks rather than pay the stealership $100 to do it, they would try to not honor the warranty on your transmission even though you didn't touch it.
So now they have to prove you damaged it if they want to void the warranty.
This does not mean they have to fix it for free if you screwed it up yourself.
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Because installing a new radio won't cause the engine to catch fire. But they (the manufacturers) will claim that it did.
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I *here* that loud and clear.
Would not work in Germany. (Score:1)
We have a proud and strong industry of craftsmen (and -women) who employ a large part of our population and students. Nobody here gives a shit about "certified" craftsmen. There is only one certificate. That of passing the government exam, and getting to call yourself a master and teach and employ others. Its standard is high enough, that nobody would consider the company-certified shops higher. They would not be seen as the pros.
So this shit would die at our doorsteps at the very least. Hopefully they try
So who didn't play ball? (Score:4, Insightful)
Which leaves one to wonder, which companies didn't comply?
Re: (Score:3)
Simple, gaslighting the customer with scripts, fobs off a percentage and that percentage is more profit. Being a dickhead is pretty normal standard operating procedure for most large corporations now. Lawyers and PR=B$ are better for this quarters profits and bonuses because next quarter it might be somebody else's problem and their bonus gets wiped out. Big ole race to the bottom.
if they want to do then warranty needs to be 2 yea (Score:2)
if they want to do then warranty needs to be at least 2 years.
Tech Support games happen alot.. (Score:2)
No removable batteries for phones (Score:2)
Thanks Steve Jobs for making phones throw away items when the battery gets shot or when an update slows it down. Sure it legally is under warranty but time to buy a new one if you want a good charge and is not slow as a dog
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No thanks. You can still buy phones with replaceable battery (and third-party firmware options, if you fear the company updates.) Samsung has jumped on the "built-in battery" bandwagon - but still sells the good old note4 with replaceable battery. As well as the batteries that fits, of course. So choice exists, and I know people who bought note4 in 2018 - just for the replaceable battery & headphone jack it still offers. Don't complain - vote with your money.
Re: No removable batteries for phones (Score:2)
One would think that if software was improving, and getting better, that newer versions of software would run better and faster on the same hardware. Communications tasks like reading and displaying pictures are really not that challenging. Even viewing multimedia and video are solved problems for the most part. One of the disappointments of Open Source is that it hasn't driven us towards this sort of convergence.
Global companies do repairs by region (Score:1)
my parents bought me a Panasonic video camera when in on holiday the USA. It broke after a few months. Panasonic in the UK refused to fix it claiming that they were different than Panasonic USA. The reason is that they charge different amounts in different regions and work hard to preserve that. Multinationals exploit global price differences to their advantage and prevent the consumer from doing likewise.
I will never buy anything from Panasonic in the future -- I'll reward honourable companies (if I can fi
Re: Global companies do repairs by region (Score:1)
You don't know anything about lenses, focal length and such, do you? Why don't you kill yourself and make the world a smarter place?
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my parents bought me a Panasonic video camera when in on holiday the USA. It broke after a few months. Panasonic in the UK refused to fix it claiming that they were different than Panasonic USA.
They probably are different companies, in that they may all fall under the Panasonic umbrella but are independent entities under a holding company. Panasonic US would have honored the warranty if you shipped it to them. In some cases they my just be a licensee.
The reason is that they charge different amounts in different regions and work hard to preserve that. Multinationals exploit global price differences to their advantage and prevent the consumer from doing likewise.
I will never buy anything from Panasonic in the future -- I'll reward honourable companies (if I can find any).
Part of the reason is different costs due to differing consumer protection laws, warranty durations, etc. Each region factors that into their pricing structure; if they fixed things that were bought elsewhere they would not get the initial revenue th
List of companies (Score:4, Informative)
The complete list of tested companies can be found in this PDF (page 22);
https://uspirg.org/sites/pirg/... [uspirg.org]
As usual the list is missing from tfa.
PIRG and Matthew Gault of Motherboard are idiots. (Score:2)
"The 1975 Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act states that no manufacturer who charges more than $5 for a product can put repair restrictions on a product they're offering a warranty on."
It says no such thing. It basically says that warranty terms must be spelled out clearly, and a warranty can't be conditioned on use of name brand parts or service unless they're provided free under warranty.
The PIRG report deliberately misleads:
What of "authorized sellers" only policies? (Score:3)
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utm_source=reddit.com (Score:2)
Nice external link.
https://motherboard.vice.com/e... [vice.com] ?utm_source=reddit.com
Ha ha ha. That's a new one for me.
Ha, ha. (Score:1)
It's a shame (Score:1)