Thieves Are Boosting the Signal From Key Fobs Inside Homes To Steal Vehicles (www.cbc.ca) 269
An anonymous reader quotes a report from CBC.ca: According to Markham automotive security specialist Jeff Bates, owner of Lockdown Security, wireless key fobs have a role to play in many recent car thefts, with thieves intercepting and rerouting their signals -- even from inside homes -- to open and steal cars. According to Bates, many of these thieves are using a method called "relay theft." Key fobs are constantly broadcasting a signal that communicates with a specific vehicle, he said, and when it comes into a close enough range, the vehicle will open and start. The thief will bring a device close to the home's door, close to where most keys are sitting, to boost the fob's signal. They leave another device near the vehicle, which receives the signal and opens the car. Many people don't realize it, Bates said, but the thieves don't need the fob in the car to drive it away. Bates says, if you have a key fob that can wirelessly unlock/start your car, you should not keep it by the front door.
"If you do live in a house, try to leave your keys either upstairs or ... as far away from the vehicle as possible," he said. "The other thing that you can do is there are products out there that you can put your key fob into," such as a faraday cage -- a box used to block radio signals -- a key pouch, which works similarly, or even a steel box.
"If you do live in a house, try to leave your keys either upstairs or ... as far away from the vehicle as possible," he said. "The other thing that you can do is there are products out there that you can put your key fob into," such as a faraday cage -- a box used to block radio signals -- a key pouch, which works similarly, or even a steel box.
Jokes on you (Score:5, Funny)
Oh....
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Mandatory auto update! He can now!
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So just steal it the old-fashioned way. Car theft has been a thing way longer than your old crappy car.
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So just steal it the old-fashioned way. Car theft has been a thing way longer than your old crappy car.
I know, right? I watch TV. It's clear all you have to do is twist two wires together, then brush a third wire against that pair and the car will start. Seconds later you can drive away.
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Not quite. You forgot a step [youtube.com]
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And.... its gone!
Actually; I think one of those trying to drive into my neighborhood would very quickly be noticed, since such a large vehicle would fill up both lanes: even LTL delivery trucks can't get in because they're too wide for the road and too tall to clear the power lines.
Re:Jokes on you (Score:5, Funny)
I drive a crappy old car that cannot be started with a key fob signal. You can't steal my car!
That's nothing, mine has a manual transmission..... NOBODY will be able to steal my car, maybe the stuff in it, but NOT the car, at least without a tow truck..
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Same here, and even though it has got an aftermarket remote start, the procedure to get the truck set up is detailed enough that I've never bothered. As well there's the steering lock and the club thing on the steering wheel.
I also have a hard time believing that my ancient fob is always broadcasting, rather then when pushing the unlock button.
hard time believing that my ancient fob is always (Score:2)
>> hard time believing that my ancient fob is always broadcasting
Yea.
I had an after market fob that activated the fuel pump and ignition on a jalopy just by being in the car, no button. A resonant technology like the anti theft thingies in stores or quick-pass - these CAN be pinged while in your coat pocket at home. The button type do nothing till you push the button, these signals can be harvested in busy parking lots, but then you need to find the car later in order to be able to steal it. Of cou
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I also have a hard time believing that my ancient fob is always broadcasting, rather then when pushing the unlock button.
My spouse has a Tesla, and there is no button on the fob. As she walks toward her car, it automatically unlocks when she is about 5 meters away. She doesn't even have to take the fob out of her purse.
I had assumed it was an RFID transponder, and the interrogation signal originated from the car, which has plenty of power. But maybe not.
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Yes, like my 2005 Accord. But who'd want to steal a 13 year old honda?
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Someone stole my last truck, a '91 F150 that looked as ugly as hell. It didn't show up again, so it wasn't just a joyride either.
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It's a Ford, remember. It stalled in the White Castle drivethrough so they ditched it.
The proximity ones don't constantly broadcast (Score:4, Informative)
That statement is incorrect for the proximity fobs too. That would kill the battery in the fob. Anyone such a fob can easily test it.
Go stand next to your car. You probably won't hear it unlock.
Touch the door handle. You'll hear it unlock.
What's going on is:
The handle has a capacitive sensor to detect your hand.
When your hand is on the handle, the car sends an *inductive pulse.
The fob has a coil in it, which works like a transformer to catch the pulse from the car.
Note this pulse is more like a transformer than a radio.
When the fob is triggered by the inductive pulse, it sends a radio packet to the car.
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Yes, after reading more comments, I realized things have changed in the way fobs work.
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I had my car broken into in Las Vegas, through the rear windshield.
They ignored the three growlers of beer in the rear footwells and accompanying two-thirds pizza, the rather sizeable stack of cash buried at the bottom of the center console, and the tablet in the glove compartment.
What did they steal? A 30-year-old wool coat. In the middle of summer. (I had the sneaking suspicion it wasn't a smash and grab though, seeing as like 15 cars had their windows busted, nothing of note stolen, and a mobile glass re
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manual transmission
Mine has a knob on the dashboard labeled 'Choke'. I dare a millennial to figure that out.
My tinfoil hat to the rescue ... (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously, get one of those wire baskets sold as desk organizers, hang it next to your key rack. Drop your key fob in that basket, and you are safe.
We are on the verge of a golden era for... (Score:5, Interesting)
...car theft. Once autonomous cars are perfected, thieves can remotely start the target car and have it drive itself into a Faraday caged trailer. The vehicle pulling the trailer will be autonomous too.
In fact... (Score:5, Funny)
Turns out the thief is an autonomous AI as well, that figured out making money for new GPU's to increase processing power was a lot easier stealing cars!
Wrong! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Wrong! (Score:5, Informative)
Not all of us have garages - certainly not most folks in apartments, and even many homeowners (myself included). Plus, there are pretty cheap ways for thieves to hack electronic garage doors too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Agreed. I don't have a garage, but if I did I certainly wouldn't waste valuable weatherproof space by filling it with a car that's already designed to be weatherproof on its own.
I've always thought the entire concept of a garage represented an unhealthy relationship with a tool.
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First, key fobs are NOT constantly broadcasting a signal.
Um, no, they are regularly transmitting a short low power ping, at least the ones I've seen.
Just dropping your FOB into a open metal box, assuming it's deep enough, will likely work just fine. But the exploit path will remain when you walk away from your car in a store parking lot..
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Going to need a source on that one. Those coin cell batteries can broadcast pings for years? I'm calling bullshit.
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My ancient fob has a 12v battery that is about half the size of a triple A, length wise. I also don't know what the point of always broadcasting would be, have to press a button to unlock and enable the ignition and even with the key in the ignition, if i don't start it within 3 minutes or so, the ignition and starter (or maybe just the starter, have to try push starting it one day) are disabled forcing me to push the unlock button again.
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Bluetooth low energy is designed to do just that. Last years on a coin cell transmitting as often as every few milliseconds. Most do a few times per second.
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Going to need a source on that one. Those coin cell batteries can broadcast pings for years? I'm calling bullshit.
From the original article above ^^^^^ (Scroll up dude!) ^^^^^
"thieves are using a method called "relay theft." Key fobs are constantly broadcasting a signal that communicates with a specific vehicle, he said, and when it comes into a close enough range, the vehicle will open and start. "
It's other way around. The car is constantly sending an "unlock me" signal and the fob is always listening. When the fob gets close enough to hear the signal the pair negotiate an unlocking sequence. You would not want the fob to be always broadcasting because that would flatten the key fob's battery.
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So you are saying the article is wrong?
I'm not going to call BS, but I am going to ask for a citation on that... :)
Re:Wrong! (Score:5, Informative)
So you are saying the article is wrong?
I'm not going to call BS, but I am going to ask for a citation on that... :)
The citation is the original TFA link from cbc. Scroll down a bit and look at the diagram which shows how it works. But common sense will tell you that a tiny coin battery in a key fob can't be broadcasting on a regular basis without going flat, whereas the large battery in a car can.
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Never trust a journalist to get the technical details 100% correct. godel_56 is probably right, and the article is an approximation of the facts as the jouranlist understands or chooses to simplify the details for non-technical readers -- that the fob is always talking.
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the exploit path will remain when you walk away from your car in a store parking lot..
Well, you could put the fob in a RFID-blocking wallet or use a RFID-blocking liner around the pocket and pull out the fob when ready to start the car.
I would opt-out of the wireless start tech altogether.
Personally waiting for a vehicle with a more advanced feature such as Two-Factor unlock by activating a face-recognition scanner to unlock the door then entering a secret personal code onto a keypad and doing a biometri
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sure, you can use a Faraday cage. You can put it in the refrigerator (which some people actually do!), etc.
In other words the supposed convenience of having saved pushing a button on a fob on your key ring is more than completely negated by this sales gimmick. Could someone explain again why pushing a button is so hard?
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Could someone explain again why pushing a button is so hard?
And, by extension, why using a regular key -- that has worked since the invention of the automobile -- is so hard?
Ya, ya. (1) I understand there were a few isolated issues in recent memory with keys because a manufacturer cheaped out on a spring in the ignition lock and (2) I get the convenience of key-less entry and ignition, but some solutions just create new problems. Both my 2001 Honda Civic and 2003 Honda CR-V have a key-fob to unlock the doors, but I *never* carry/use them (okay, maybe during a rai
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It's handy to just push a button to unlock both doors rather then walk around and unlock the passenger door after unlocking the drivers door. Likewise for locking them if the passenger forgot to push the button down before closing the door. Driving alone, it's not so important.
The truck also won't start without pushing that button to unlock the doors and screams if someone opens the door (reaching through an open window or such).
Beach (Score:2)
But then you go to the beach, have a swim with the fob in your pocket, and you stay at the beach because the fob stopped working.
That is why I leave the electronics in the car and only carry the physical key (on a hybrid key/fob system).
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Yes, that is the drawback. Since I acquired this vehicle, I live in fear of locking the fob in the truck or losing the fob, especially at first when i only had one fob. Now I can use the spare key (which I didn't have at first) if the fob is inside, the truck will scream until I quickly find the fob and hit the unlock button, then 2 other buttons to reset things.
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I have a Mitsubishi Attrage (company lease car), and it won't lock if the fob is inside the car.
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One advantage of the modern fob.
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It's handy to just push a button to unlock both doors rather then walk around and unlock the passenger door after unlocking the drivers door.
True enough, though both my Hondas have a power lock button on the driver's side to un/lock the other doors and locking the driver-side door with the key locks both doors. My wife's previous car was a 1991 Toyota Celica GT and the outside door locks had some nice intelligence. Unlocking the passenger door from the outside unlocked both doors and when unlocking the driver door, turning the key once unlocked just the driver door while turning it twice in rapid succession unlocked both doors. I actually wish
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Well my '98 F150 is manual, manual shift, manual windows and manual locks (last owner added the alarm, remote start and electronic locks). Last vehicle the power locks were broken, so manual, though if they worked, I could have just pushed a button after unlocking the drivers door to unlock the others. That vehicle, I had to replace the window regulator motor twice, spent too much time looking for the wiring break that broke the door locks and other various issues that made me want to avoid too much power t
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Is there no lock/unlock doors button on the inside of your driver-side door?
No, manual locks and even manual windows.
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Maybe the remote needs an on/off switch. Flip the switch off, no attempts at communication would be made.
Re: Wrong! (Score:2)
Like keyless entry, it's just a simple convenience that is nice to have. I understand it's not for everyone, but I really like it.
It's nice to have all the foot lights come on as I approach the car with kids. It's nice to have the interior and my door handle lights come on. The trunk opens/closes with a foot sensor.
And since I haven't touched the fob in my pocket, I don't need to take it out to start the car (I do need to push a small button to open the door). It's also nice to leave the car locked but ru
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Next, sure, you can use a Faraday cage. You can put it in the refrigerator (which some people actually do!), etc.
That is the sort of thing that works in the movies, but I'm sure the real Ed Snowden knows better. Have you tried it?
Put your cellphone in the fridge or microwave, and call it. Are you surprised to heart the ring?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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You don't have to completely block the signal, you just have to attenuate it enough. Those little fobs are super low power, and the signal already has to go through at least your front door.
Saw this video (Score:2)
about a year ago. Does not take long.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk... [bbc.com]
Not This Again (Score:2)
Some incorrect assertions (Score:5, Interesting)
The mechanism in a fob that lets the vehicle start is not the same mechanism that operates the locks. Additionally there's different programming needed to add the convenience controls versus programming the fob to where the vehicle will start with it.
This "hack" was possibly demonstrated on an old Top Gear when one of the presenter's cars was moved into the street by another presenter while they were at a restaurant. Basically supposedly it was close enough that the the fob and car could communicate. Given that this was for entertainment it's difficult to say if it was real or not.
Either way though, I guess I'm still a fan of having a physical key that must be inserted into a slot, used in combination with an immobilization system that communicates with a chip that's embedded with the key.
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needs motion sensor (Score:5, Insightful)
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Nitpick: I assume you mean it should have an accelerometer or other IMU package. A "motion sensor", as a term, tends to refer to a device that senses motion in the room (like that used to turn outside lights on as you approach).
Seems like a much more expensive solution than a button or slider switch to activate. Or socket in the car with a physical connection required.
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Sure, hence the other idea of a slide switch to activate/deactivate fob. Deactivate when you get home/to work. Activate before you walk outside.
Personally, I would prefer a button, but there are pluses and minuses.
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i like your idea of a slide switch because it gives the operator choice. you live in the boonies, have a garage, drive a $2000 fordor generally dont care then you don't have to disable for convenience. live in a major metro city, or otherwise are constantly at risk of theft of your $50k car you park on the street.. by all means boo-boo activate that slide switch.
i'm not inconvenienced, you are still safe. win-win. until you forget to slide it and get annoyed that your car won't unlock or worse, gets stol
Extra step too annoying (Score:2)
Sure, hence the other idea of a slide switch to activate/deactivate fob.
That still means you have to dig it out, especially annoying in the winter. I like my keyless entry because as stated, I can just walk up to the door and press a button (on the door) and it unlocks without having to dig the key out of my pocket or jacket.
Now if you are really wanting this, this you could easily hack it up yourself - the wireless key fobs have batteries, so you could just rig some simple outside switch to disconnect the
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It's a slide switch. You're right you have to dig it out, but only to toggle it. So do it while inside your home/office/etc as part of putting on your coat to go outside. I understand that some people like the hands-free nature, but making it toggle-able avoids this problem with less engineering/cost from a sensor.
Also, I'm not sure if the fobs have batteries, or are powered with received EM from the car.
I think all fobs have batteries but... (Score:2)
Also, I'm not sure if the fobs have batteries, or are powered with received EM from the car.
My fob does have a battery, and most would for powering the broadcast signals that are used by the remote unlock buttons.
However after some thought, it seems like even with the battery disconnected the actual RFID chip would probably still broadcast, after all it is just a latent thing... so it's not that easy to rug up a switch. I guess a kind of switch could be as simple as a sliding RFID blocker over the body of
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Then you deserve to have your radio signals amplified and replayed. Just because you find it annoying doesn't mean a terrible engineering solution somehow becomes a good idea.
I suppose you could two-factor with a fingerprint reader on your car door. Should
Yes, but won't happen (Score:2)
Then you deserve to have your radio signals amplified and replayed.
Sure do! But it's super unlikely I figure. I'll gladly trade a lifetime of convenience for the slim chance it will be used to take the car some day - which insurance would just pay for another of anyway...
Also my car is garaged which adds an admittedly thin layer of extra security around it when not in use.
Honestly rather than a switch which would be annoying all the time, a simple RF blocking bag to drop the key into at home seems like a
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The Toyota solution: key required for the actual ignition. Problem solved.
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Hmm... interesting. The first links I get on DDG for "motion sensor" are hardware stores selling outdoor light sensors. Wasn't aware of the usage change. Sorry Bruce!
I'd be more concerned about power consumption than construction cost. Replacement fobs cost a couple hundred bucks, so there should be sufficient profit. I'm not even sure if the hands-free fobs have batteries or are just passive RFID.
Lastly, I've been desperately looking for cheap accelerometer all in one board. I haven't seen a usable ac
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I keep my keys in my pocket - not on a table somewhere. If I'm awake, they've probably been moving in the last few minutes.
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Too prone to error. A time of flight calculation would work. Of you are outside of, say, 10 feet, you can't unlock the car. Apple does this when unlocking a Mac with an Apple Watch. I'm sure it's not trivial, but it's certainly possible.
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Signals travel at around a foot per nanosecond. That means the time to respond to a request must have no more than a few nanoseconds of variation. That seems unlikely to be possible, much less practical.
The right fix is for keyless driving and no-press keyless entry to be an optional feature that the user can disable.
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Not a time of flight calculation. Light is too fast and the fob's response time is too variable. Delay detection would work though. You send out the signal and you know to fairly good precision (but much less than required for TOF) how long the key fob takes to respond. You would probably build the fob so it sets up its response, waits a particular amount of time, then fires it off.
Relays introduce an unavoidable delay. If you detect the delay, don't unlock the doors.
Re: needs motion sensor (Score:2)
I am not an expert, but do work on IOT circuits in my spare time.
I think an accelerometer consumes many times more power than a short range transceiver. The fob probably transmits for 1/10000 of a second every 1-3 seconds. An accelerometer probably draws more power idiling for movement over a 24hr period than the transmitter.
Then there is higher initialization consumption of an accelerometer. At the later stages of the battery, it probably will fail sooner, being unable to draw the necessary power.
It's a n
Why would it continuously emit ? (Score:2)
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Re:Why would it continuously emit ? (Score:5, Informative)
It doesn't continuously emit. It's false information in the article. The fob listens constantly, and when it receives a valid query from the car, then it broadcasts a response. So when someone touches a door handle, for example, to unlock, the car broadcasts the challenge, and the fob then broadcasts the response. Same for pressing the start button.
The coin battery in the fob would die within days (if it even lasts that long) if it was constantly broadcasting.
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It doesn't continuously emit. It's false information in the article. The fob listens constantly, and when it receives a valid query from the car, then it broadcasts a response. So when someone touches a door handle, for example, to unlock, the car broadcasts the challenge, and the fob then broadcasts the response. Same for pressing the start button.
The coin battery in the fob would die within days (if it even lasts that long) if it was constantly broadcasting.
Shesh, the article is right they are regularly transmitting, but you have to consider what it means. The FOB need only transmit a short low power RF pulse every 10 seconds, more or less. The FOB's I've seen come with absolutely huge batteries and YES they need to be replaced a lot more often than the button press kind. (and the dealer service department LOVES to do it for you.)
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It can't continuously emit. Key fobs are powered by tiny batteries, and transmitters are power hungry. IN order to keep the battery life to several years they can't continuously transmit.
What happens is the key fob detects a low-level RF field emitted by the car, and the car interrogates the key when the key detects this. This is used for those keyless e
No...they do not (Score:4, Informative)
Why don't they fix this? (Score:2)
Come on you crazy car makers you can fix this exploit.... PLEASE start making the no button FOBs work on an interrogation basis... Make it necessary for the CAR to initiate the conversation and ONLY when the car needs to know when the FOB is in the local area. ALSO, make sure the FOB is at least close to the vehicle by looking at the delay between the ping and pong reply. You can keep the current button press FOB things, but for any "automated" unlocking do the right thing and MAKE SURE the FOB is actuall
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Obviously more stolen cars results in more car sales so, at the very least, manufacturers aren't as well motivated as they might be in this area. Probably the fix is for insurance companies to jack up the rates on cars with insecure fobs. You do compare the insurance rates when chosing between car models don't you?
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I actually DO compare insurance rates... But I admit that I'm weird when it comes to buying cars.
For my last two vehicle purchases I made a "final offer" and told the salesman I only had about 30 min to close the deal. When they first refuse because the "manager" didn't like the deal, just turned to leave. They got two chances. In both cases, it took about 30 min. The problem is you have to know what the vehicle is worth to the dealer, a bit of research that takes is daunting, because it's NOT dealer in
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so your car should constantly ping? how does that solve the problem.
-dk
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so your car should constantly ping? how does that solve the problem.
-dk
No, it only pings when somebody tries to access it. So it's quiet until somebody grabs the door handle to open the door, then it pings, or hits the "start" button, then it pings and verifies the FOB pongs and is actually INSIDE the car (easy to do with basic direction finding).
But think about what this means... That "ping" now needs to be sent to the FOB before it will pong.
This greatly increases the complexity of the exploit. Now you have to relay signals in both directions. You have to get the ping
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" It's more than twice as difficult to do this."
First. No. Having to do basically the same thing twice does NOT make it twice as difficult.
Is making two omelettes twice as difficult as making one? Twice as many eggs. Sure. Twice as time consuming maybe. But twice as difficult? No. If you can make one, then making a 2nd one does not really increase the difficulty of the task.
Second, boosting the signal from the car is easier. You know exactly where the car is, your within physical contact wit hti. You are tr
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Make it necessary for the CAR to initiate the conversation and ONLY when the car needs to know when the FOB is in the local area.
That may be very well what it does, but the thieves Relay the interrogation AND the responses to the interrogation..
ALSO, make sure the FOB is at least close to the vehicle by looking at the delay between the ping and pong reply.
The delay before the FOB responds is probably not predictable and measurable with sufficient precision.
Video of thieves using that method to steal a car (Score:5, Informative)
https://youtu.be/bR8RrmEizVg [youtu.be]
Progress (Score:2)
this is better (Score:2)
Given that there is no indication of an increase in theft and that thieves using methodologies like this are very likely professionals, the thieves have just found a less damaging way to steal your car. They can steal any car they decide they want - even if they have to haul it away on a car hauler. If it is stolen in this fashion and perchance recovered, you likely won't have to deal with as much of a repair job.
So go ahead and worry about making it more difficult with Faraday cages and other silliness. If
Huh? (Score:2)
This doesn't seem like it would normally work? (Score:2)
I've owned a number of vehicles with keyfobs, and in almost every case, they didn't transmit anything until you pressed a button on them to unlock or lock a door, a trunk, or perhaps sound the horn repeatedly as a "panic" function.
That was true even for cars like my Hyundai Genesis Coupe that had "push to start". The fob might have transmitted something to tell the car it was present, so push to start was ok to start the engine. But you couldn't unlock the doors just by walking up to it. Come to think of
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Put it in the garage (Score:2)
Why not put buttons on the key fob? (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps design a key fob that doesn't constantly broadcast, it would be harder to intercept and perhaps save battery life. This revolutionary keyfob design could have a set of buttons to unlock your doors, start the car, maybe open the trunk, or set an alarm mode.
I should patent that idea before anyone else! Ladies and gentlemen, we may have solved this key fob hacking trick and added a whole suite of features in the process. Well done!
Close to the door? (Score:2)
bring a device close to the home's door, close to where most keys are sitting,
I must be one of the few people whose car key isn't located anywhere near the front door. It must be close to 30' where I put my key.
Also, as someone further up said, I drive a stick shift. Even though I have an electronic door lock, it only works when I press the button. So even if they could steal my signal, my anti-theft device will keep them at bay.
Not news; and another reason to avoid these things (Score:2)
In addition to the post's reported issue (which is hardly news, BTW; it's been a thing for a good while), another reason I rejected this feature for our most recent car is that I often like to verify that the car's door is locked, and without that annoying beep if I (re)lock with the fob. With an auto-open feature (pun quite intended), a test of the door handle as I'm leaving the car always leaves it open. Maybe it automatically re-locks after some time, but even that might be longer than I want.
And if auto
Put your keyfob into a steel box (Score:2)
Like the car. Oh, wait.
Good grief (Score:2)
The entire article is speculative.
A steel box (Score:2)
Altoids cans work.
Short range (Score:2)
And how about the claim that it's a "short range attack"? They've got Bluetooth "sniper rifles" that can connect to a device a mile away, how much do you want to bet the same thing exists for keyless fobs? Sweep that through the parking lot and across the store/restaurant/whatever as you drive past, and let it give a chirp when it unlocks something - along with a readout of whatever model-identifying information can be recognized. You wouldn't want to waste your time stealing the cheap junk after all.