Anti-Cheat Software Causing Big Problems For Windows 10 Previews (arstechnica.com) 116
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The Windows 10 Insider Preview Slow Ring -- the beta track that's meant to receive only those builds that are free from any known serious problems -- hasn't received an update for months. While the fast ring is currently testing previews of the April 2019 release, codenamed 19H1, and the even-faster skip-ahead ring is testing previews not of the October 2019 release, 19H2, but of the April 2020 release, 20H1, the Slow Ring is yet to receive a single 19H1 build. This has prompted some concern among insiders that perhaps the ring has been forgotten about, and it has even caused a few complaints from companies that are using the Windows Insider for Business program to validate new Windows releases before their launch. Without Slow Ring builds to test, there's nothing to validate, meaning that they'll have to delay deployment of 19H1 once it ships.
Microsoft's Dona Sarkar, chief of the Windows Insider program, explained yesterday what the problem is, and in many ways it's a throwback to Windows' past, before the days of DEP and ASLR and PatchGuard and all the other measures Microsoft has implemented to harden Windows against malicious software: the build is crashing when some unspecified common anti-cheat software is used. Sarkar's tweet says that the software causes a GSOD, for Green Screen of Death; the traditional and disappointingly familiar Blue Screen of Death, denoting that Windows has suffered a fatal error, is colored green for preview releases so they can be distinguished at a glance from crashes of stable builds. Fast ring builds have the same GSOD issue, and indeed, it has been listed on their known issues list for many months. Sarkar says that the fix must come from the third-party company that developed the anti-cheat software. In an update, Ars Technica's Peter Bright says Microsoft has pushed a build to the Slow Ring, number 18342.8, but the GSOD issue remains. "To avoid crashing machines, the build won't be offered to any system that has the offending anti-cheat software installed," Bright writes. "It's not clear why this approach could not have been used months ago."
Microsoft's Dona Sarkar, chief of the Windows Insider program, explained yesterday what the problem is, and in many ways it's a throwback to Windows' past, before the days of DEP and ASLR and PatchGuard and all the other measures Microsoft has implemented to harden Windows against malicious software: the build is crashing when some unspecified common anti-cheat software is used. Sarkar's tweet says that the software causes a GSOD, for Green Screen of Death; the traditional and disappointingly familiar Blue Screen of Death, denoting that Windows has suffered a fatal error, is colored green for preview releases so they can be distinguished at a glance from crashes of stable builds. Fast ring builds have the same GSOD issue, and indeed, it has been listed on their known issues list for many months. Sarkar says that the fix must come from the third-party company that developed the anti-cheat software. In an update, Ars Technica's Peter Bright says Microsoft has pushed a build to the Slow Ring, number 18342.8, but the GSOD issue remains. "To avoid crashing machines, the build won't be offered to any system that has the offending anti-cheat software installed," Bright writes. "It's not clear why this approach could not have been used months ago."
Sounds like you should break the anti-cheat (Score:5, Insightful)
Why does what amounts to spyware get preferential treatment?
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VVindows doesn't rhyme with "slack" at all!
Re:Sounds like you should break the anti-cheat (Score:5, Informative)
Because cheating is rampant in online games, and anti-cheats are needed to even have a modicum of fair play online. Unless you're one to believe the only way to play online is consoles only and basically the PC should be discarded as a gaming device.
Sadly cheats are generally programs that either run the target game in debug mode (with the cheat as the debugger) and thus undetectable to the game, or as a separate executable and hijack network traffic. Kernel drivers are required to break these kind of things.
And for what it's worth, the anti cheat software in question is used by Fortnite, among other games. That's kind of why it's a big deal.
And cheating is so rampant online among PC users that an aspect of PC gaming would be destroyed without anti-cheat software letting people play legitimately. Maybe PC users don't care, but it would be pretty sad if the only way to play online was to pay for Playstation Plus or Xbox Live Gold.
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On the other hand, since accoustic information is inherently lower resolution, they could use the same strategy as civil GPS where the lower significant bits are scrambled. Or MS could add a process flag so that the debugging API doesn't work on flagged games.
Of course, none of that will stop an external network sniffer attached between the PC and the network.
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If it's so easy, share the necessary networking code here.
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The problem is that they send the clients way more information than necessary.
Can you be more specific about that?
I mean we could eliminate it by just going to streaming games, maybe that's what you meant.
Re: Sounds like you should break the anti-cheat (Score:2)
Looks like you have the answer to creating cheat-free software. I suggest you set up a consultancy business and make yourself rich.
Play with friends, not strangers (Score:2)
Because cheating is rampant in online games, and anti-cheats are needed to even have a modicum of fair play online. Unless you're one to believe the only way to play online is consoles only and basically the PC should be discarded as a gaming device.
Play on PC with people you know from outside the game who can be trusted not to cheat.
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Then drop games that use dozens of players in favor of games that use a smaller group, such as games designed for 4, 8, or 16 players. Organize a match between your guild and another guild.
Re:Sounds like you should break the anti-cheat (Score:5, Insightful)
Kernel drivers are required to break these kind of things.
And kernel drivers have to be signed. Microsoft should just blacklist drivers signed by the anti-cheat software developer's key until they can get their shit together.
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Microsoft should just blacklist drivers signed by the anti-cheat software developer's key until they can get their shit together.
Because getting an error message and being unable to play the game is so much better than getting a Green Screen of Death and being unable to play a game?
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You missed the bit where cheats are sold by companies as microtransactions which is A OK for the corporations but that gamers hate. Not installing the update if anti-cheat software installed and of course woo hoo a big ole fuck you for players who install the game after the update when it crashes, why is that bloody problem solved, now you can blame them, typical M$.
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"And cheating is so rampant online among PC users that an aspect of PC gaming would be destroyed without anti-cheat software letting people play legitimately."
Funny, can't find anyone hacking in oldskool Doom online. Not that you need to with the weapons available now days thanks to a still-living mod community.
Maybe the coders of these other games should #learntocode. We got it right in our little community (made up now almost entirely of hackers of some level,) why the fuck can't they get it right in thei
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Because no one plays oldskool Doom anymore? I'm sure once you add in about a million players, you'll start to see online cheating. And just so you know, the
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"Because no one plays oldskool Doom anymore?"
As of my last current master server refresh ten minutes ago: 536 servers, 491 players online.
Nice to know you can't do basic research and check players counts for yourself. Moron.
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Many gaming monitors include an on-screen aiming sight, which is entirely handled by the monitor and completely undetectable to the PC.
Only way around that is to add a gunsight to the game so at least everyone is on the same level.
Because cheaters ruin games (Score:3)
Games shouldn't be loading kernel drivers (Score:5, Insightful)
The solution to this is simple: games shouldn't be loading their own kernel drivers.
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1. Don't trust the client
A single simple rule that you should have learned in computer science / software engineering classes.
You assume that the client (btw that actually include the anti-cheat software, which is why you shouldn't need it) is compromised. So you make sure that the server does not send more information than is needed, and the server expect any data from the client to be suspect.
Now I do understand the need for latency, and why the client needs to send dead-reconing information (including co
Re:Games shouldn't be loading kernel drivers (Score:4, Interesting)
You're either someone who is into cheating, developer of cheat engines, or utterly ignorant of how cheating in PC multiplayer games commonly works.
Or you're an absolute guru in the field, and can code a solution that works and doesn't require it. In which case, I have a question. Why are you posting here instead of picking up that easy ten to eleven digit pay-off?
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What is with the inquisitorial attitude?
Either you are for burning witches or you are a witch yourself.
Come off it.
And nobody is making "ten to eleven digit pay-off[s]" in anti-cheat software. The whole damn field is a cancer. Calculate on serverside. Don't be cheap and rely on client software. Done. That's your anti-cheat.
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The fact that games I like can get ruined by cheaters is more than enough for the attitude. Rampant cheating kills games.
And I agree, cheating field is cancer. Which is why anti-cheats have to be invasive to cure it. When disease is both as virulent and as lethal as modern cheating in multiplayer games is, cure working is more important that cure triggering a few idealists and cheaters.
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I'm sorry they didn't ban you earlier from whatever game it was that you got banned and salty.
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A game with a enough cheaters among thousands is a dead game. A game that kills one OS is still enjoyable and playable on other OS's.
So the answer is obvious, unless you're a cheater.
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Yes. Because rampant cheating kills games. What other reason do you need?
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As I noted in my original post, if you're not here to blow hot air, and aren't a cheater/cheating software developer, why are you here?
Follow up with your statements and grab that huge payout from building anti-cheat software that actually works and meets your requirements.
Re: Games shouldn't be loading kernel drivers (Score:1)
We had client hacks like auto aim, radar/esp, see through walls, no shadows, etc. back in Quake. The first one. It's not as simple as getting rid of modern client side tricks.
Without the most basic anti-cheat protections, there are client side mods - louder footsteps, replaced grenade priming sound with ticking or countdown, custom player models with long spikes protruding along every axis, textures that are reflective or glow in the dark, in general make any sort of concealment or stealth impossible.
Ther
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You fall in the last category - utterly ignorant of how cheating on PC multiplayer commonly works.
Cheaters overwhelmingly don't develop cheats. They buy them from vendors. Vendors who among other things, take great care in not getting their paying customers banned due to cheat detections. And you don't need consistent security from cheaters. You just need to nail their nice, expensive account with time invested in it once ever couple of months. Most people give up at that point. Almost everyone gives up aft
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Third option: The OS should provide enough protection for applications that they don't need their own kernel drivers.
The OS does provide some protection, e.g. you can mark memory as needing to be secure and it won't appear in crash dumps and will be inaccessible even to debug tools. Gotta protect that DRMed media.
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Then live according to your values, don't play games that generally are kept cheater-free to a meaningful extent and stick to games utterly ruined by cheaters.
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DRM, anti cheat , telemetry (Score:5, Insightful)
GSOD (Score:4, Funny)
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It's still a different brightness.
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At least it doesn't give BSOD.
What makes you sure this will be fixed before release?
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Don't do your banking on a Windows 10 PC.
It will be nice to have easy force uninstall for t (Score:2)
It will be nice to have easy force uninstall for that and other stuff like starforce
Part of the plan to lock out steam and others! (Score:2, Troll)
Part of the plan to lock out steam and others!
Ms wants to make it all locked down MS store / Xbox that they get an 30% cut.
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I think the difference between the MS whose battle cry was 'Windows ain't done til Lotus won't run' and the MS of today is that there actually is that they don't corner the market on bigger lawyer diplomacy anymore.
If MS wanted to muscle in and make the PC a gaming platform where they got more revenue, all they have to do is finalize the components that make it possible to play Xbox games on a Win10 computer. Done and done. They don't *have* to disadvantage anyone else; once that's in place, Xbox games beco
Windows 10 has so many issues with updates (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd prefer an ultra Ultra slow and very stable tested train of updates.
You know maybe even give it a name, a more simplified ui, call it something like windows 7 or something like that.
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For me personally, windows 10 is just too damn much. I put up with windows 7, but now that it is at end of life, I am not making the jump to 10.
I have played with Linux before, several years ago, but the issues were enough that I stayed with windows. Now, I am ready to jump in with both feet.
Microsoft has pushed me too far.
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If you want "polished" UI, you can use Linux Mint distribution with Cinnamon (Mint 19.x is based on Ubuntu 18.04).
Personally, I prefer XFCE based desktop because it's lighter. I care more about stability/lightness than how it's look.
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Go ahead and make the jump. https://www.protondb.com/ [protondb.com] Proton is Steam's built in Wine, and it handles everything for you. Another list with supported games straight from the Steam store: https://store.steampowered.com... [steampowered.com]
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You forgot an IR blaster and USB C. Wait, my phone has all those.
Windows 8 and 10 (Score:2)
At that point, I am thinking bye bye Windows/Microsoft everything. So you know what, I don't much care. After all, they really are heading to remote monthly subscription based everything anyway.
I refuse to use any of that kind of stuff in "my" business. Basically, limited accounts to deal with client work. And when the time comes I will let those clients go elsewhere for that work.
Just my 2 cents ;
if i could all my games to work on non-windows (Score:3)
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Ah, I see... (Score:2, Funny)
>_ the traditional and disappointingly familiar Blue Screen of Death, denoting that Windows has suffered a fatal error, is colored green for preview releases so they can be distinguished at a glance from crashes of stable builds.
That's how you know you're using Windows' stable version...
Breaks tools as well (Score:2)
why this approach could not have been used (Score:2)
Well, it could have, but I assume that Microsoft alerted the company involved and had expected a fix to be released.
What's not clear to me is why Microsoft has failed to provide a workaround for this. The only reason I can think of is that the software has a vulnerability which is deliberately asserted.
Broken Pottery (Score:1)
So? (Score:2)