Microsoft's Universal Windows Platform App Dream Is Dead and Buried (theverge.com) 69
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: Microsoft has spent years pushing developers to create special apps for the company's Universal Windows Platform (UWP), and today, it's putting the final nail in the UWP coffin. Microsoft is finally allowing game developers to bring full native Win32 games to the Microsoft Store, meaning the many games that developers publish on popular stores like Steam don't have to be rebuilt for UWP.
This is a big shift for Microsoft's Windows app store, particularly because games are one of the most popular forms of apps that are downloaded from app stores. Previously, developers were forced to publish games for Windows 10 through the Universal Windows Platform, which simply doesn't have the same level of customization that game developers have come to expect from Windows over the years. The writing has been on the wall for UWP for months now. Microsoft recently revealed its effort to switch the company's Edge browser to Chromium and away from UWP to make it available on Windows 7, Windows 8, and macOS. Microsoft's Joe Belfiore admitted in an interview with The Verge earlier this month that UWP was a "headwind" for Edge. "It's not that UWP is bad, but UWP is not a 35-year-old mature platform that a ridiculously huge amount of apps have been written to," Belfiore said at the time. Microsoft even recently put its touch-friendly UWP versions of Office on hold, preferring to focus on the web, iOS, Android, and its desktop apps instead. Office was always the centerpiece for UWP and a good example of how to build a more demanding app on Microsoft's new platform. Microsoft is finally listening to app and game developers and not trying to force UWP on them anymore. "Ultimately, this is good news for both developers and Windows users," the report concludes. "We might now start to see more games in the Microsoft Store that work how PC gamers expect them to and hopefully more apps."
This is a big shift for Microsoft's Windows app store, particularly because games are one of the most popular forms of apps that are downloaded from app stores. Previously, developers were forced to publish games for Windows 10 through the Universal Windows Platform, which simply doesn't have the same level of customization that game developers have come to expect from Windows over the years. The writing has been on the wall for UWP for months now. Microsoft recently revealed its effort to switch the company's Edge browser to Chromium and away from UWP to make it available on Windows 7, Windows 8, and macOS. Microsoft's Joe Belfiore admitted in an interview with The Verge earlier this month that UWP was a "headwind" for Edge. "It's not that UWP is bad, but UWP is not a 35-year-old mature platform that a ridiculously huge amount of apps have been written to," Belfiore said at the time. Microsoft even recently put its touch-friendly UWP versions of Office on hold, preferring to focus on the web, iOS, Android, and its desktop apps instead. Office was always the centerpiece for UWP and a good example of how to build a more demanding app on Microsoft's new platform. Microsoft is finally listening to app and game developers and not trying to force UWP on them anymore. "Ultimately, this is good news for both developers and Windows users," the report concludes. "We might now start to see more games in the Microsoft Store that work how PC gamers expect them to and hopefully more apps."
Was it sandboxing they hated, or DRM? (Score:1)
UWP always seemed like a solution to a problem nobody had.
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I like where you are headed with this and wish to subscribe to your underground 'zine and/or RFC.
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RFC 8392
Microsoft Make-believe Open Source Task Force (MMOPSTF)
Request for No Comments: 8392
Category: EEE
Abstract
To take over the world with a computing platform that Microsoft controls and it promises, really really really, not to sue or wantonly change the standard at least twice a year.
Status of this Memo
Good until 4pm today.
Table of Contents
1. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
2. Fuck you, we don't give out details.
3. Oh, you're still here. BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!
4. A total lack of acknowledgements
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Disregarding the fact that ladder logic is based on circuit diagrams and is only used to program PLCs, clearly the biggest obstacle to Windows making use of it is the 'ladder' aspect. Ladders are not inclusive of physically challenged people. OSHA would require that Windows be programmed with the not as well known 'Ramp Logic', for which many IDEs and CLR bytecode generators also do not exist.
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OSHA would require that Windows be programmed with the not as well known 'Ramp Logic'
I thought Windows had always been developed with Ramp Logic, judging by its continuous yet gradual slide downward.
What do you like about ladder logic? (Score:2)
You've brought up ladder logic a couple times now. You seem to dislike text-based programming.
What do you like about ladder logic? What have you used it for and what would you like to use it for?
Thanks (Score:2)
Thanks for that. You like it because it's easy.
And it sounds like you've used it for industrial automation.
I'm still curious what you'd like to use it for.
---
programming languages are far too difficult to read and understand. They require advanced knowledge of computer science and technical jargon for anybody to really become proficient with them. ... ... and requires almost no training by comparison. ...
ladder logic because it is so much easier,
No need for unit tests or console print-lines. Just m
Ps you might like Python (Score:2)
Btw, when Lego needed a programming tool for kids to use with Lego toys, they chose Python. Yes, it's a text-based language, and it's also literally the Lego of programming languages - very easy. It's a bit more powerful than ladder logic, if you ever want to try something a bit more powerful.
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I think you're mistaking issues around ladder logic with the part ofd his post that read:
Our shop floor techs who've never taken so much as a single CS course can readily pick up ladder logic and be very productive with it
You can implement anything in any language, and if you use shop floor techs with no training at all, they will make a mess of it. Just be glad its not written in something that allows the lights to be red and green simultaneously.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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UWP actually limited all that. UWP apps had access only to whatever container they were put in. Networking was limited to something you'd expect on a smartphone. Starting a network server required a user privilege agreement.
Cool shit if you ask me. Pity the Windows Phone platform died out.
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Typically the US government, my own one, Google and if I still was using it Facebook would already be doing just about the same ...
Joke's on them (Score:1)
I object to the app store much more than I object to UWP.
Cool. (Score:3, Insightful)
I remember back in the early WIndows 8 days, talking to folks REALLY into Microsoft stuff, about how the Metro interface made no sense, and later how the Window Store stuff made no sense.
I was repeatedly assured that all of these things were needed, because folks needed to have a simple solution where they could seamlessly install multiple instances of something, avoid DLLHell, and have all their folders managed for them automatically.
But at every link in the chain, there were only more problems - never really complete solutions.
The deeper problem was that the solutions lacked any elegance. They were always layers and layers of crudely managed complexity piled on top of what was previously open for a variety of good reasons.
Most of the ACTUAL reasoning behind these layers was to push a philosophy of information ownership - of managed permissions that could be overridden not just by the user, but by systematic processes, outside both the control of the user, but in Redmond itself.
I delved into the Windows Installer XML registration process for a project, and this pattern was fairly apparent.
I'm glad this has died back for now - but I really don't like the motivations that cause other developers to want to go along with this approach.
It all just seems so dystopian to me, to solve otherwise real problems with these 'motivated' solutions.
Ryan Fenton
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That describes most of the DevOps middleware and container management trend and most of systemd as well, so thanks.
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Incidentally, I get the same impression when delving into "package managers" under Linux. Every new package manager results in an order of magnitude more complexity and days of wasted time.
Computers have evolved to the point where they work just fine as they are. We're just looking for excuses to make them more complicated.
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Package management is a last century solution, when storage and memory were at a premium.
Must have every application come with it's own dependencies, except for some base level OS stuff for proper hardware abstraction, internationalization and desktop management.
OSX/MacOS, with all its flaws, has done a lot of these things right. I consider it the only 21th century OS, even though a lot of its roots go back to NextStep.
A few of the ones important to me:
- Application installation/deinstallation is as trivial
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M$ sole reason for this shite, add in a Windows license fee for any game running on windows just like the xbox, don't worry they have not given up. At one point M$ wanted a percentage of all financial transactions conducted on a windows computer, these people are the very definition of greed. Instead they will just have to make do with renting you back your own content, no pay, no access.
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I'm pretty sure it was 100% a "business strategy" decision by senior management who saw the gold rush with Apple and Google app stores and did the cocktail napkin math and figured they needed that too.
Nearly everything Microsoft has done with Windows for close to the last 10 years has been trying to ape Apple and make Windows into a touch platform.
Microsoft usually seems to do two things -- push crappy software using their size and marketing because they already control that market, or corrupt pretty decent
Can we please stop using their crap? (Score:1, Troll)
There are sane alternatives available. Why are these fuckups even relevant anymore?
Cheap to admin (Score:2)
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Was it ever alive? (Score:1)
UWP never caught on after Windows mobile flopped. Very few desktop users wanted anything to do with UWP, and developers saw this as a non starter for any app development. I like Windows 10 in many ways, but in some ways Microsoft still has lost touch with its end users. Seeing the failure of Edge browser 4 years late and now starting over with Chromium just proves Microsoft still can't seem to understand or listen to its core user base.
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And what about windows 10? (Score:2)
I'd rather switch to Linux with all the compatibility problems and all of the relearning required than use that nasty spyware that is Win10. When are we going to get an OS that isn't determined to be a data-mining tool?
"Microsoft tracks around 25,000 different types of "event" and has a team of 20 to 30 engineers who analyze the data. Those techies are also able to add new events to be recorded." Completely flouting GDPR privacy law which says you should be allowed to turn off the spying.
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I switched my gaming desktop to Slackware Linux from Windows 7 last year. I originally intended to set up a Windows VM for gaming but I haven't really needed to.
I figured if I was going to be spending time in Windows 10 fiddling with registry hacks and third party tools to get my system to do what I want, I might as well be doing that sort of thing on Linux. If something doesn't work or breaks, at least it wasn't deliberately broken. And I can often send bug reports to the relevant devs and get things fixed
Ugh...This is Ridiculous (Score:4, Interesting)
tl;dr - MS is still making their own UWP apps and Nadella seems smart enough to see the value in taking 30% of Win32 sales, so the lack of any citation of Microsoft announcing the discontinuation of UWP makes this entire notion baseless speculation.
Yes, MS is allowing Win32 apps in the store. No, this is not the 'final nail in the coffin'.
There are a whole lot of games that are written for generic Win32. Microsoft has a chicken-and-egg problem on getting developers to start using UWP. For users that aren't using the MS Store, UWP is far more of a hassle than a garden variety Next->Serial->I Agree->Typical->Next->Next->Finish install process of most Win32 applications, and Steam/Origin/Epic get rid of even that step. MS hasn't provided a meaningful ability for users to add UWP apps to their system without the Store, so there's only disincentive for developers to go that route.
Meanwhile, the hotness in video games is "live services", which basically requires as many gamers as possible in order to make the game enjoyable. Developers have nothing to gain from using the MS store, and a whole lot to lose. Microsoft's repeated attempts to have an app store with none of them actually-sticking have compounded their issues.
Nadella has finally finished his morning cup of coffee and realized that trying to get developers to utilize a new app model with reduced functionality to Win32 while also trying to be gatekeeper of UWP distribution is going to result in both developers and end users alike saying "hard pass", just like they said to the Windows Phone store, the Windows 8.1 store, Windows RT, and Windows 10S. He's gotten the clue that it's far better to allow Win32 software in the MS Store and get a 30% cut of it, rather than to stipulate UWP that the market has consistently shown to be unwanted by consumers.
That doesn't mean that MS has given up on UWP. I'll believe *that* one when I no longer need to run a Powershell script on a new Win10 machine to get rid of all the appy-apps that just download after logging in. MS has already made UWP iterations of Remote Desktop, Paint, Calculator, Onenote, Sound Recorder, and the entire Office suite on UWP. Every 'improvement' they make to the standard crop of Windows utilities that have been around since the 90's has been in UWP form; the Win32 versions of most of them haven't been touched in over a decade (and no, I'm not complaining).
Nadella is coming around to the fact that the way to boil the frog is *slowly*. Making Win32 games available in the store is a start, having Xbox games playable on PC is another. Once users start actually providing traffic to the Win10 Store, they'll start making from their cut of things sold there. Once they have that, they can then start putting the screws to developers, whether by demand, or by SEO (UWP apps get shown first), or by financial incentives (greater cuts of Win32 app sales), or by making API changes echoing the 'Windows ain't done 'til Lotus don't run' mantra with a different coat of paint.
MS will relax the UWP requirement for the moment, but make no mistake - Microsoft won't be satisfied until they are making Apple money, and while everyone wants mobile apps, MS is learning that Win32 is their greatest asset and their greatest liability, and moving away from it is nearly impossible for them to do without even greater sacrifice.
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Your post is the only one that is by someone who knows what they are talking about. The amount of noise generated in response to this Slashdot summary is amazing. Frothing Linux heads see the word "Microsoft" and take it as an invitation to debate the pros and cons of u
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Lol, WPF was the dev division attempting to wrest control of UI from the windows division. So we ended up with 2 incompatible UI systems. Woot, what a great way to run an OS.
WPF is on its way to death too, old code works well with simple winforms (yes, very many companies I've consulted with still use that) and the rest have moved on to web based UIs now. WPF always filled a role that nobody needed, and now don't want. The only reason for using it was where microsoft forced you in their usual misguided atte
Too Late to Market (Score:2)
Microsoft (Score:1)
Cool (Score:2)
Now let's have the Windows 7 UI back (Control Panel and everything).
And kill the damn ribbon as well or at least make it optional/switchable.
WebAssembly is a more clever idea albeit different (Score:2)