Parks and Recreation Centers Are Using Sonic Devices That Play High-Pitched Noises To Repel Teens (npr.org) 406
NPR reports of the various parks and recreation centers in North America that are using sonic devices to repel teens from the premises. Philadelphia, for example, has 30 parks and recreation centers that are outfitted with a small speaker called the Mosquito. "It blares a constant, high-pitched ringing noise all night long -- but one that only teenagers and young adults can hear," reports NPR. "Anyone over age 25 is supposed to be immune because, basically, their ear cells have started to die off." From the report: Philadelphia parks officials have been installing the device since 2014, reported WHYY's Billy Penn, intending to shoo rowdy youths from the premises. And it's not the only U.S. city to do so. Mosquito's Vancouver-based manufacturer Moving Sound Technologies works with roughly 20 parks departments around the country to implement the youth-repellent devices, says president Michael Gibson. It's intended to prevent loitering and vandalism by teens and young adults at public facilities. But some say this age-based targeting is a form of prejudice. Philadelphia City Council member Helen Gym refers to the devices as "sonic weapons" -- and she's working to get them removed.
[I]n Philadelphia, Parks & Recreation defends its use of the Mosquito, saying the devices are operational from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. only, and they're just one part of an overall anti-vandalism strategy that includes fences and gates, security cameras and night watch staff. For now, the city is moving forward with installation. Despite the backlash, two new Mosquito devices are being installed at other city playgrounds as part of major renovation projects.
[I]n Philadelphia, Parks & Recreation defends its use of the Mosquito, saying the devices are operational from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. only, and they're just one part of an overall anti-vandalism strategy that includes fences and gates, security cameras and night watch staff. For now, the city is moving forward with installation. Despite the backlash, two new Mosquito devices are being installed at other city playgrounds as part of major renovation projects.
What a crappy world we live in (Score:5, Insightful)
Like the man says, don't trust over 30.
Re:What a crappy world we live in (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What a crappy world we live in (Score:4, Insightful)
Yup. Repelling kids from something that would keep them entertained and occupied ... they're going to wind up going somewhere else and definitely vandalising something else.
I think the entertainment value they get from breaking into a park or rec center when it is closed is something we can reasonably deny them. And saying we can't chase them away from vandalizing the rec center because they'll go vandalize someplace else is, well. silly.
Re:What a crappy world we live in (Score:5, Insightful)
OK then, how about this:
Those devices repel ALL teens. The rowdy ones as well as all others. This is a form of discrimination based on age. Also, at 25 you are no longer a teen, but a young adult.
Furthermore I see you make an incorrect assumption: "breaking into a park or rec center when it is closed" - which is untrue. The parks are NOT closed, as a matter of fact I am wondering if public parks are ever closed. Certainly not in my country. So this means that between 10 PM and 6 AM, a certain category of people is banned from entering a park simply due to their age range. Oh, yes, my girlfriend is almost 39 and she can hear 12 KHz sounds (I cannot).
I'll add one more thing, based on personal experience (and yes, I know it's rare but it happens). My oldest child had belly aches when he was a baby, especially during night. So what I did was put him in his baby cart, take him out and walk him through the park until he fell asleep. Now imagine those bloody devices having been installed, my baby having been able to hear them, but me being completely oblivious to their effect.
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Those devices repel ALL teens. The rowdy ones as well as all others. This is a form of discrimination based on age.
Firstly that's a non-sequitur statement. Secondly if some kids are in a closed park then they are by definition rowdy law breaking brats. Up the volume.
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in civilized countries the parks have opening and closing hours.
And, amazingly, you would think that is normal.
"You are not allowed to take a walk in the park at any time because we're CIVILIZED", oh my God.
Just like any other public facility.
Public toilets, train stations, bus stations, to name a few. They are open 24/7.
You can't break into the tax bureau at midnight to go skateboarding, or even if you just want to file your taxes.
Forced comparison, not the same thing.
And bonus points for including a literal shrill won't somebody think of the children" screed at the end.
It was not about that. It was about the fact that using a technology initially created to repel stray dogs from certain areas is now applied to repel people, with possible side effects which were not even taken into consideration.
It wouldn't be a nice
Re: What a crappy world we live in (Score:2)
Israeli here. Maybe my country is "backwards" but here there are many parks that you can sit with friends in, even at night, even as old person. Hell, this is how a lot of adult religious Jews spend their Friday nights (religion prohibits them from using electricity at Shabbat).
I really wonder why someone would call that "backwards" though. I call it a society where there's enough mutual trust and one can go around in the streets and even in parks without fear of getting mugged or shot.
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I live in a country where guns are banned, you need a permit which is difficult to obtain in order to own a small handgun. Larger rifles are completely banned.
Parks here are not staffed, except for a couple local guardians who have no weapons, and they are on site 24/7 anyway. For a city of 2 million people, the costs of those guards is insignificant.
You know, it's amazing to me that you are so used to some things and behaviors that you don't realize how ridiculous they look to people from other countries.
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I grew up in a small town with very few entertainment options, and very few of us had money. For us, the public park was the "hangout" on weekend nights. About 8pm, cars would start to show up and basically the population of the entire highschool would be there by 10. There was drinking and fights, you are going to get those just about anywhere a bunch of teens hang out, but for the most part, it kept us from getting in to trouble. When I was 16 they started "closing" the park, I guess under some misgui
Re:What a crappy world we live in (Score:4, Informative)
"Anyone over age 25 is supposed to be immune because, basically, their ear cells have started to die off."
The fact that adults can't hear ultrasonics doesn't mean they're not affected by them. A significant subset of adults will, in the presence of ultrasonics, eventually experience nausea, headaches, tinnitus, and a variety of other unpleasant symptoms (it varies a bit by individual). Problem is that the effects aren't obvious immediately, they can take up to an hour or more to be felt, so it's a bit hard to make a case that it's the ultrasonics causing them. The discrimination angle is probably more likely to be successful in getting this nasty stuff banned.
And to the cretins who decided this was a good idea, their punishment should be being locked in a room for twelve hours with strong ultrasonics.
Re:What a crappy world we live in (Score:5, Funny)
The safe way to repel teenagers is to use easy-listening music. It won't affect your baby or your dog.
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Or, if you are like me and never listened to loud music or anything, I'm 33 and can hear these things fine.
Last year some co-ops at work were playing with one of those ringtones that apparently only young people can hear. It was driving me insane.
Flyback transformers in TVs do the same.
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Ideed. The idea is really horrible.
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The park at night is not a safe place to go in high crime areas.
And do you really think that kids are deciding to commit crime because there is no place to play basketball? That's not a lot of respect for kids.
Re: What a crappy world we live in (Score:2)
I certainly do not want them on my street.
I have neighbors (and their friends) that play basketball in the street all night long, in addition to setting off fireworks and whatever else. Their parents do not cAre.
I have SERIOUSLY considered buying one of those mosquito units and putting it on a timer from 9pm-9am. Only thing stopping me is the cost...but that may not stop me for much longer.
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Seriously, fuck yo midnight basketball, that shit is loud and will keep people awake. In the USA parks are generally closed after dark, and don't open until dawn or thereabouts, so it is indeed trespassing. Such regulations come about because we need them, given the ongoing tearing of the social fabric. Those regulations are there to combat problems, and most of those problems are even real. (They're also signs of ongoing failure.)
Re:What a crappy world we live in (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:What a crappy world we live in (Score:4, Insightful)
Requiring businesses to permit use of their parking lots as skate parks means asking them to accept a great deal of liability. It is not realistic. You can't sign your rights away, so they can't permit activity "at your own risk". Kicking out skaters is the only reasonable option open.
Cities and municipalities should create skate parks if there is substantial demand. But the flip side of skate parks is cracking down on people skating elsewhere, or without protective gear.
Entitled much? (Score:4, Insightful)
But there were some businesses where we would run into people like you. Can't skate into a McDonalds for a quick snack, or even through the driveup line because...you know, policy.
Those policies are in place for mostly very good reasons the foremost of which is liability. McDonalds doesn't want the liability of you injuring yourself or another patron, however unlikely. You can skate TO McDonalds and then just take your skates off when you go inside and they'll serve you just fine. But if they don't want to serve skating patrons for ANY reason though, that is their legal right. You seem to have a pretty large sense of entitlement...
When a submit-to-my-authoriteh self-entitled lamebrain can't think of a valid reason to keep you out, they will use that word.
It's their property. They don't need a reason you consider valid. They don't need any reason at all in fact. You have the same rights on property you own. McDonalds can't come to your yard and start frying burgers. Their place, their rules. Don't like it? Go somewhere else. As long as they are not violating any discrimination laws your argument is moot.
Why skating causes NIMBY (Score:2)
I couldn't even begin to guess how many times we were out skating... sober (You can't skate drunk or high, it screws up your balance and coordination too much.)
Just because you weren't drunk doesn't mean you weren't a problem. See below. And your state of inebriation is irrelevant to the discussion.
not causing trouble, getting exercise, and so on; and we were chased off from parks, or shopping plazas, or parking lots, or even whole neighborhoods by (Insert "respect mah au-thor-i-tah" figure here.) and told to go the hell home.
Maybe you thought you weren't causing trouble but you almost certainly were. Not intentionally of course but trouble all the same. All those locations are owned by someone who wasn't you. You can do whatever you want on your own property but once you leave that the rules (and laws) are different. If you are skating on them and get injured the owner of that propert
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Re-read your text. Replace "kids" with "blacks" and "age" with "color".
Suddenly you are a horrible racist.
My point: discrimination is discrimination, no matter who is the target.
Re:What a crappy world we live in (Score:4, Insightful)
Kids legitimately lack adult judgement. That why they're banned from a wide variety of activities that require mature restraint.
BTW, "discrimination" is just "recognition of a difference" and is not bad per se. Someone who only likes certain wines is discriminating.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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And by "talk" we mean, get stopped by the police and potentially arrested. Which brings additional risks.
This is how low you've sunk, you don't even complete one layer of analysis.
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"The low we've sunk to is failing to parent properly resulting in a whole generation that is rude, abusive, has no respect for others etc."
You mean like the prior generations which were more violent and more abusive, and which had no respect for women or brown people?
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Re:The New Low (Score:5, Insightful)
I never thought I'd find a post that could be an opinion quote from someone from any decade from at least the 1950s onward and would have been said exactly the same, word for word.
I'm sorry, but I didn't buy "juvenile delinquency is getting worse because parenting abilities and morals are declining" as a kid and I don't buy it now. I'm unaware of a period in history where any society existed that did not have some groups of vicious children.
Re: The New Low (Score:2)
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This audio is behind closed and locked gates and signs telling people to stay clear.
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than to talk.
No the talking has been tried. When someone loiters in a closed recreation centre at 10pm they have already actively ignored any attempts to talk to them.
Is there a portable version? (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously though, we citizens have known peace so long we are turning on each other
bull (Score:3, Interesting)
I am 40, and can still hear these fequencies.
Re:bull (Score:5, Funny)
Found the dog on the Internet!
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Only dogs of a certain age will get that joke. Bravo.
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Only dogs of a certain age will get that joke. Bravo.
And New Yorker readers.
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Re:bull (Score:4, Interesting)
My father who's in his late 60s reckons he can as well. The old boys an Audio engineer (as in engineer engineer, works with architects designing TV studios, as opposed to the "pushes volume faders at concernts" variety), so I suspect the whole 'cant hear if over 20' thing is pretty suspicious, statistical at best.
Myself, no dice. I definately have lost hearing. Probably on account of playing in idiotically loud punk bands in the 1990s.
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Same here at 37. Was pointed to a Youtube video of one of these and fucking hell my ears hurt for minutes after playing it. It felt like a needle got jabbed into my eardrums.
I was about to psot the same (Score:2)
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May I recommend not loitering in a closed recreational facility in the middle of the night then?
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Wouldn't this mess with wildlife? (Score:5, Interesting)
Look, sometimes I want to be away from kids as much as anyone, but wouldn't such a sound also possibly be a problem for wildlife? Given we are talking about parks and such, I would think that would be a consideration...
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They put similar (identical? Can't quite read what it is with my 50 year old eyes) devices in the train stations in my city to repel pigeons. It totally works but I can hear it and it sucks to be near one. It's worse than a car alarm.
Wondering if these teens have discovered earplugs yet...?
Humans can go elsewhere easily (Score:2)
First question about health implications is about animals, not humans. At least our priorities are straight.
Yes they are, because any human bothered by the noise can leave quite easily.
Since these are parks in cities, where else can the animals go all night long? What about young birds that cannot leave nests?
If we find out later these devices damaged human hearing
They aren't going to do though because the whole point of them is they are so annoying you do not stay. That's why I defiantly place the concer
Wildlife and Animals? (Score:5, Interesting)
What is the impact on local wildlife? Will this cause a problem for birds? What about cats? Certainly dogs will hear it; how far away will this be a problem?
If you're only using these at time when the sites are supposed to be closed, and you've also thought through the other impacts, then it shouldn't be a problem, but I don't see it being as limited as that.
Great point about dogs (Score:2)
I posted pretty much the same thought but that's a really good point about dogs.
Even for people that just live close to the parks and keep windows open, it seems like dogs would be really bothered.
Prooobably should be illegal (Score:5, Insightful)
Likely, this type of practice should be outlawed.
The idea that young adults are less than people in some fashion is one we see a decent amount of This is the group that will die for these people should there be a war, and the group that will become their future taxpayers, workers, etc.
I know that if there was a place that, as a teenager, was playing some ear-destruction noises, I'd certainly never shop there / would vote against their funding, even when they turned them off, or even when I was an adult.
It's just idiocy.
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Is there a discernible difference between "loitering" and "admiring nature"?
Do they run facial recognition on them and the detector says "51% chance of Scowl"?
"Yeah, nobody scowls at a tree! They're loitering all righty. Activate the sonic cannon."
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Is there a discernible difference between "loitering" and "admiring nature"?
Yeah, "admiring nature" is usually done when the park is open, and it's light outside.
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Than you're missing nearly half of nature.
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Young people playing midnight basketball is just as valid a need
At midnight, they need to be in bed.
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When I was 19 (so a legal adult, but still well within the age range these devices are apparently targeting), working a shift which ended at 1 am, a buddy from work and I would often go to a nearby park and decompress by bs'ing while we played tennis.
If these kids were all well behaved and using the park after a late shift for a relaxing game of tennis, then I'm sure nobody would care enough to install these devices.
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If these kids were all well behaved and using the park after a late shift for a relaxing game of tennis, then I'm sure nobody would care enough to install these devices.
No, moral panics have little basis in reality.
There's an email list for my neighborhood. You would not believe the number of threads about "rowdy teens causing trouble" that's just kids rolling around on skateboards in one of the parking lots, not making much noise. My house is near one of those parking lots, so I'm quite aware of what's actually going on.
The authors of such threads assume that something terrible will happen any minute now and act as if that something terrible has already happened because
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Likely, this type of practice should be outlawed.
We could even have a convention about it. I propose we hold it in Geneva. Switzerland is lovely this time of year.
The idea that young adults are less than people in some fashion is one we see a decent amount of This is the group that will die for these people should there be a war, and the group that will become their future taxpayers, workers, etc.
I know that if there was a place that, as a teenager, was playing some ear-destruction noises, I'd certainly never shop there / would vote against their funding, even when they turned them off, or even when I was an adult.
It's just idiocy.
This, but it's a common theme of old people to complain that the world is being ruined by young people, especially realising that they were the ones that raised the younger generation and the "yoof of today" is just following in their example.
Of course they'll tell you they're not to blame, it's other people's kids that turned out bad as they complain to the manager about non-issues between w
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You admire nature in the middle of the night while trespassing in a closed park? May I suggest a new hobby?
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They should use Semisonic devices ... (Score:2)
It blares a constant, high-pitched ringing noise all night long -- but one that only teenagers and young adults can hear, ... Anyone over age 25 is supposed to be immune because, basically, their ear cells have started to die off.
[embedded in the high-pitched noise] "You don't have to go home, but they can't stay here. ..."
In related news, they're still researching its affects on Hedgehogs [wikipedia.org] ...
I am not a kid and I can hear it (Score:5, Insightful)
Not a kid here (closer to Medicare than college now), and I can hear all of these ultrasound devices. A little while ago neighbor had one of those ultrasound dog fences, and walking by I triggered it a few times. It feels like my head is going to explode. Had to be careful and walk on the other side.
So when they say "only kids can hear it" that's two untruths in one: not only kids, and it's not "hearing" as much as a form of torture.
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Yeah, a local dentists office has one going 24/7 in front of his office (I guess he doesn't want teens playing in his fountain or something) and it's a severe nuisance, even to people out of their teens.
I have considered filing a noise complaint, honestly.
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In other news, sounds like the "invisible fence" worked perfect for this guy. :D
What about circumvention devices? (Score:2)
Is the government going to start making circumvention devices like earplugs illegal?
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I'm thinking they'll have to outlaw fingertips, since those could be stuck into ears. and cotton swaps, headphones...hmmm, my list is getting huge
Try again. (Score:2)
I downloaded the sample audio and I can still hear it, I'm 40.
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53 and I hear it. I didn't hear it loudly, but it would be the sort of thing that could cause a 'mysterious' thumping headache after a while.
And I thought flyback transformers were bad. (Score:2)
Fuck that, and I hope someone takes a baseball bat to their torture devices.
Not everyone (Score:2)
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False. Ultrasonic is defined as 20KHz and above. Some people can here to 23KHz and above though
Re: Not everyone (Score:2)
Oh God. Back when I was in college, one of my roommates had an old (1970s-era) TV whose oscillator was so loud, I could hear it OUTSIDE... through closed windows & concrete walls. It went right through the interior walls. I'd say it was at LEAST 80-90dB @ 15.75KHz. It felt like a sonic knife.
My guess is that something metallic inside the TV vibrated due to the oscillator's magnetic field, and the cabinet resonated & made it even louder.
Finally! (Score:2)
I propose a test (Score:3)
Since NOBODY is supposed to be in the park after hours, why not painfully loud klaxons to drive all ages out of the park? Perhaps the security alarms designed to make people feel sick and disoriented. Add painfully bright strobes to make sure the deaf can't sneak in either.
Does it seem reasonable now?
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Why should a park have "after hours"?
I live in a different world / continent.
Our parks are open 24x7, no fences, locks or surveillance.
Works very well.
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I have travelled around the world, including about ten US states, and have not yet seen "park filled with homeless and drug dealers".
Public space should be that - public. 24x7x365, no restrictions on who can be there and why. The problem with the article is not the particular solution used to keep people away. The problem is with the principle of setting restrictions and hours and age limits on who can be where when.
I'm living next to a park btw... Open all day round. No homeless, no dealers...
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Re:I propose a test (Score:4, Informative)
There's actually a practical reason to use high-frequency sounds for this purpose. The atmosphere absorbs higher frequencies more readily [sengpielaudio.com], meaning higher frequency sounds become inaudible (assuming your ears can hear the frequency) beyond a shorter distance. It's why foghorns are low-pitched - the low frequency maximizes the range at which you can hear the horn.
So the noise from broad-spectrum klaxons would travel very far and cause noise complaints in neighboring communities. But high frequencies will attenuate enough that they're indiscernible after a few hundred meters.
War On Undesireables (Score:3, Insightful)
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There's an app for that... (Score:2)
Or there will be one very, very soon.
Forbidden (Score:2)
..where I live. But classical music does the same job.
Wagner and Bach, no kid can stand that for more than 3 minutes.
This isn't about 'prejudice' (Score:2)
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Who should set the rules for the teenager?
The parent?
The owner of the park?
The "goverment"?
What if you pass the park with your family on 10 PM, and your kids will suddenly feel pain while you are okay?
We just had a public all-family event which ended at 11 PM. 100k people attended, with tens of thousands of kids included. Most walked back to home / their cars through a park.
There are no universal rules which say who can be where or at what time.
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I don't want to sound like the grumpy old man
No, you do want to sound like the grumpy old man.
but there is no good reason for a mid-teen to be hanging out at a park after 10pm!
How about an 18 year old? 'cause these devices work on them too.
Also, the kids are going to be out. Your options are 1) give them somewhere safe to gather, and you can even add some positive activities and positive role models to that place (google "Midnight Basketball", gramps) or 2) they'll gather in whatever random place they find, and do whatever random activities they come up with. With whoever decides to show up ("Hey kid, wanna make some extra cash?
Re:Mod Parent Overweight, Illiterate (Score:5, Insightful)
You're missing the point. These devices are being used to "encourage" "undesirable" kids to move on. What kind of "undesirable" kids might that be? Urban black kids, of course! The ones coming from poor, single-parent households who have all kinds of problems at home! It's a comment about the kind of people who support the use of these devices.
Re: Mod Parent Overweight, Illiterate (Score:2)
Park is located in downtown Philadelphia, and the activity is occurring at night.
Of course urban kids will be the ones affected. Duh!!!
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What kind of "undesirable" kids might that be?
The kind that loiter in parks after closing hours. The fact you jump straight to the race card says more about you than the people trying to prevent trespassing.
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How does a document make a holding about a specific event that happens later? You skipped a whole bunch of steps.
There is minimal correlation between your statement and the meaning of the words you used.
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You can't use "castle doctrine" off your property. It doesn't help you if you're standing on your property when you open fire.
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When did Mueller say no collusion occured?
I'll wait, forever, because he didn't.
He did say: "Recognizing an immunity from prosecution for a sitting President would not preclude such prosecution once the President’s term is over or he is otherwise removed from office by resignation or impeachment"
and: "The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this
Re: SEE YOU IN PRISON TRUMP FAGGOT - DIE THERE (Score:2)
Innocent until proven guilty.
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