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Transportation

Airlines Are Finally Fixing the Middle Seat (fastcompany.com) 183

Posted by msmash from the shape-of-things-to-come dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report: "There's no justice in air travel," an airline industry insider once told me. A third of passengers on planes get stuck with a middle seat, getting smushed for hours at a time in a chair that costs exactly the same ticket price as a window or aisle. That just stinks. But what if we could rethink the middle seat to be more comfortable? In 2017, we wrote about a landmark airplane seat called the S1. Its design is unique in that it staggers the typical three-seat arrangement, so that middle-seat passengers sit slightly behind others in their row. Last month, the S1 received FAA approval to be installed on planes; an undisclosed U.S .airline will be putting them on 50 planes by the end of 2020.

The S1 has been in development for five years, and the team behind it at Molon Labe Seating is a mere six people, including sales and operations staff. Designed for commuter flights of only a few hours max, the S1 moves the middle seat a few inches lower than, and back from, the aisle and window seat. It also widens the seat by about three inches. This allows your arms, shoulders, thighs, and elbows to spread just a bit more than they otherwise could, without giving the seat more legroom or reducing a plane's seating capacity (which translates to profit margins for airlines). "We have discovered that what looks like a small stagger actually makes a huge difference. The trick is to actually sit in the seat. In fact our main sales tool is to ship seats to airlines so they can sit in them," says Molon Labe founder Hank Scott. "I have watched this several times -- airline executives see the seat, nod their head and then say they get it. Then we ask them to actually sit down, next to a big fella like our head sales guy Thomas [6-foot-6, 250 pounds]. Within a few seconds they [really] get it -- they stop being an airline executive and switch into passenger modes."
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Airlines Are Finally Fixing the Middle Seat More

Airlines Are Finally Fixing the Middle Seat

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  • Drawbacks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by guruevi ( 827432 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:51PM (#58974650)

    Cuts ~5-10% of the rows, has moving parts (that will subsequently break under heavy abuse) and it's 5% heavier.

    There are all kinds of cool ideas for making seats bigger but airlines don't want them. They'd rather you invent a standing 'seat' or a way to put the passengers into stasis.

    • Re:Drawbacks (Score:5, Funny)

      by rogoshen1 ( 2922505 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @05:08PM (#58975084)

      joey ramone was a man ahead of his time.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      They are claiming that it doesn't reduce seat capacity at all. It really is staggered by only about 10cm from the looks of it, so I can believe that.

      I'm a bit more sceptical about the arm rest that is designed to be shared between the seats. It's staggered, the rear part being low for the middle seat and the front part being high for the side seats.

  • here's what's going to happen (Score:5, Funny)

    by mschaffer ( 97223 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:51PM (#58974652)

    The middle seat will remain the same width. The other two seats will be made narrower. Voila---a wider middle seat.

  • Let's talk about ergonomics (Score:4, Interesting)

    by unfortunateson ( 527551 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:59PM (#58974692) Journal

    Short answer: No.
    Longer answer: Hell no.

    I'm 6'7" (or about 2 meters). A normal seat is too low, narrow, and too close to the next seat forward to be at all comfortable. So this doesn't do anything about the length, the narrowness might be relieved a little, but the height means that (a) my elbows are going to be in the wrong spot for the armrests, and (b) my knees will be in pain by the end of a couple-hour trip.

    I struggled to get to Premier status on Untied (sic) Airlines, now at least I get to take an available Economy Plus seat. Better seat pitch, still no hope for height. People aren't the size of 50's test pilots: airlines really need to make these things at least slightly comfortable.

    • So book an aisle or window seat.

      • Re:Let's talk about ergonomics (Score:4, Interesting)

        by caseih ( 160668 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:50PM (#58974960)

        Except that you can't really, at least not in economy. You have to book your ticket first (non-refundable usually) before you can select your seat. Often you can select an aisle or window, but not always. You can often upgrade to economy plus after the fact of course, but again not always if the flight is full. Would be nice to select a seat first, then book and pay for it. Then you'd know for sure what you're are getting.

        • I've seen some airlines that permit that when you book on their own site. I think maybe even American.

          Still you can effectively get the same with southwest by upgrading your boarding group - you'll never need to deal with a middle seat with an A group boarding pass.

        • Except that you can't really, at least not in economy. You have to book your ticket first (non-refundable usually) before you can select your seat.

          Which airline are you referring to? I've seen this in some offbeat situations with multi-airline international flights, but barring that I've been able to pre-select seats for years. These days you can even see the seat maps before selecting a leg.

        • Every single airline I've booked a flight with in the past decade has allowed me to pick the seat I will be occupying during the booking process, and certainly prior to committing to payment. And thats probably a couple dozen airlines in that time. What shitty ass-backward airlines are you flying that feel they need to hook you in with payment before giving you a seating preference?

        • Except that you can't really, at least not in economy.

          Get a better airline. Basically every European airline allows you to select the seat at booking time (often for a small token fee) instead of just at check in time.

          • I've never been on a airline (among dozens) that didn't
            let you select your seat before paying.

            The best option for a tall person:
            book well ahead of time so you can get a bulkhead seat.

      • Re:Let's talk about ergonomics (Score:4, Interesting)

        by bobbied ( 2522392 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @05:06PM (#58975070)

        So book an aisle or window seat.

        Oh that sounds great... Except, I'm tall enough it won't matter and I work for a place that demands I travel coach. They won't pay for ANY upgrades, even though at 6'7" and 200Lbs it's hopeless to try and actually get comfortable. I can usually survive the short hops, but I got to tell you the international flights down to South America are brutal, overnight, no sleep and packed full with folks speaking Spanish and Portuguese.

        I keep telling myself that it will be workman's compensation insurance when I get home with a DVT or a wreaked back and hips from when the hapless passenger in front of me tries to recline through my knees which are wedged between the seat back and my seat's non existent lumbar cushion. It's so bad, I actually TRY to fly the red eyes with lower load factors when I can, hoping get an empty seat on one side or the other. I've been rescued by more than one flight attendant and allowed to sit in the crew reserved bulkhead seats on the long haul flights. It's still horrible, but I can at least use the empty seat while they are up working...

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jemmyw ( 624065 )
          You're unusually tall. I mean sure it sucks and you complain, but presumably your job is good enough that you are willing to put up with it, and they don't need you enough that you can demand better travel arrangements?

          • You're unusually tall. I mean sure it sucks and you complain, but presumably your job is good enough that you are willing to put up with it, and they don't need you enough that you can demand better travel arrangements?

            It's not them really, it's the customer, who will refuse as a matter of policy and law to reimburse such expenses. My company understands, the customer who's paying the bills thinks one size fits all, literally, and even if they wanted to, cannot as a matter of law pay..

            • It's not them really, it's the customer, who will refuse as a matter of policy and law to reimburse such expenses. My company understands

              The last time I booked a business trip with Delta, they issued me a split receipt. They had the price of the ticket and then they had a total for additional charges. They also performed two charges to my credit card rather than everything all together.

              The ticket price had all the fees and taxes added (September 11th Security Fee, Transportation Tax, Passenger Facility Charge, and Flight Segment Tax). The miscellaneous services and fees section contained the two preferred seat upgrades I purchased for two of

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          That's a problem with your employer. In Europe it would be a health and safety issue, they must provide you with a suitable seat. If you happen to be very tall then they just have to pay more, and can't punish you for it in any way.

          • Great, but I'm not moving to Europe's social and economic cesspool of living in the EU so this applies to me how?

            For me, Europe is a great place to visit, but it's just not my cup of tea as a place to live and raise a family. I don't like the systems of government over there, certainly don't care for the politics or legal situation as evidenced by the EU's very existence.

            So if you don't mind.. I'll live in the USA, and visit Europe as often as I have the time and money and leave you to run your own countr

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              I don't like the systems of government over there

              Even though they would stop your body being crushed by inadequate airline seating that is mandatory in your job?

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by epine ( 68316 )

              Great, but I'm not moving to Europe's social and economic cesspool of living in the EU so this applies to me how?

              So you want American socialism instead, where you can pay for the extra resources your large body consumes?

              American socialism, where the free market is never wrong, and there's guaranteed to be a price exactly proportional to your extra resources consumed, despite the fact that you're in the 99.9% percentile by height, and arranging entire aircraft fleets to accommodate every extreme tail would b

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jrumney ( 197329 )
        Another problem these days is the entertainment boxes that are fitted under the seats. You need to know the aircraft layout well to know which seat to choose. Some airlines put them under the aisle seats every second row, others put them under the window seats.
    • As a practical thing, not excusing airline behavior - you might have luck asking if there's someone that wouldn't mind switching, giving you an outer seat. I've given mine up to larger people, as the sacrifice to me is much less than the gain in comfort they gain. I'm sure others feel the same and would help accommodate. I would hate to ask as well, but if you ask a crowd of people rather than a single, it may feel alright.

  • Also faster boarding (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Ichijo ( 607641 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:59PM (#58974694) Journal

    According to TFA, lowering and moving the middle seat back also allows the aisle seat to slide over it and widen the aisle for faster boarding.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Misagon ( 1135 )

      No, it would be the opposite. Trying to extend the seat group while there are passengers standing in the aisle would be hell for the flight attendants.

      You can't ask the passengers to do it themselves. First, a large portion of the passengers are going to be stumped on how to operate it, and require help.
      Second, for safety reasons, authorised personnel (i.e. the flight attendants) would have to visit each group of seats and verify that it is locked properly.
      These extra steps would require extra time, not les

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The version they are rolling out doesn't do that, it's something they hope to up-sell later.

  • Or just be humane. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ledow ( 319597 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:02PM (#58974718) Homepage

    Or just... make the seats bigger for everyone and space them further apart.

    When I can get a plane from the UK to Spain for under £40, not including airline tax, paying the airport itself, etc. *without even trying*, you could take less passengers on one plane and charge slightly more and get MORE overall custom.

    • Re:Or just be humane. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by bobbied ( 2522392 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @05:26PM (#58975194)

      Or just... make the seats bigger for everyone and space them further apart.

      When I can get a plane from the UK to Spain for under £40, not including airline tax, paying the airport itself, etc. *without even trying*, you could take less passengers on one plane and charge slightly more and get MORE overall custom.

      The problem is the consumer won't fly with you if the next airline is $10 cheaper. We are in a mad race to the bottom here and the name of the game is figuring out how to get more passenger miles per pound of Jet-A and crew hour. It that means making the seats smaller, so be it. If that means shoving another row of seats in by shortening the row pitch by 1/2 an inch, so be it. If that means flying the 737 MAX, where they make the plane longer, put more efficient engines under it and save $$ on pilot training, so be it... Anything (within the bounds of the FAA's rules) goes.

      Nobody will pay more.. You cannot charge more.... They will keep shoving more folks into a smaller space as long as the FAA allows, trust me.

      • Nonsense, that's an excuse airline execs use after manufacturing additional fees. "Oh, nobody wants to pay $10 for a few slices of cheese and a couple of crackers. I guess there is no demand for meals on airplanes. People don't want to pay $50 extra per leg for seats that are 1-2 rows closer to the front of the plane, I guess that means we should just eliminate leg room and pack in more seats." The only people willing to pay more for stupid crap like this are the business / government travelers with the exp

        • If an airline were to charge $100-200 more per ticket for significant comfort improvements, they would get plenty of business.

          Except they don't. The economics don't pan out and the fact they don't is precisely the reason why even when you book the cheapest tickets there's a chance you'll end up upgraded in an exit row or premium economy seat.

          As it stands they struggle to fill the premium seats, people don't pay for it.
          As it stands they struggle to get people to check bags, people prefer to cram their overhead allowance beyond capacity and then carry their coats as well.
          As it stands they are successfully filling planes and recoveri

          • Don't call airline executive's reasoning an "excuse". There's money to be made here, and they have definitely figured out the maximisation strategy with all the information they have (which is far more information than you have).

            That's exactly what it is, an excuse to make more money. Because passengers effectively don't have other choices. A "premium" seat that adds $200 more round trip to your ticket (ex: two legs each way), but that is not actually premium is something nobody will pay for. Of course, that is obvious, which is why it is an excuse. Airlines can make more money by cramming people in and making them as uncomfortable and late as possible.

            As it stands few people are willing to buy a sandwich or coffee on a plane despite it costing less to do so than in the terminal.

            Uh, huh. And on Amtrak recently I was treated to a $9 cheeseburger that was pull

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

          Nonsense, that's an excuse airline execs use after manufacturing additional fees. "Oh, nobody wants to pay $10 for a few slices of cheese and a couple of crackers. I guess there is no demand for meals on airplanes. People don't want to pay $50 extra per leg for seats that are 1-2 rows closer to the front of the plane, I guess that means we should just eliminate leg room and pack in more seats." The only people willing to pay more for stupid crap like this are the business / government travelers with the exp

          • Interesting that you say "most people", but provide only anecdotal data. Personally, I use services like Kayak and Google Flights because they provide a convenient way to search dates, airlines, number and length of layovers, etc, that you would otherwise have to do one-by-one for each airline on your own. I do care about price, but I also usually filter out the bargain fares because I don't want things like overnight layovers or driving an extra 2 hours to get to the airport.

            Anyway, I don't dispute that pr

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        On short haul or popular budget holiday routes perhaps, but on long haul I'll pay more for better service. Have been doing so for decades.

      • I find it hard to believe that, in a culture where people will pay $7 for a damn coffee. In the USA, flying is a horrible experience that takes hours to get through terminals, security, boarding, etc. It can take most of your day to fly. There's plenty of opportunities to upsell for a mere extra $10. Other countries do airline service much better and can charge more, too.

        The real problems are image, the booking experience, unreasonable terms, nickle-and-diming with hidden fees, actual bad service regard

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by q4Fry ( 1322209 )

          I talked to a fellow who tells me that anywhere he can drive in 8 hours or less, he'll never fly to, because the airport process winds up taking 8 hours anyway.

          In my case, the break-even point is typically 6 hours, but it's an interesting point to consider.

    • Sure - and the airline that *doesn't* do that will beat the airline that does.

      Passengers love to bitch and moan about the seating, but airline passenger data has always shown that price sensitivity will win out over additional comfort. A few passengers here or there may switch to the more comfortable airline, but most will go by price.

      The rise of the Low Cost Carrier and the Ultra Low Cost Carrier has put paid to many legacy airlines over the past 2 decades, and theres a reason for that...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by N1AK ( 864906 )
      Launch an airline with bigger seats, target these routes, and make a killing then; clearly the established airlines are missing something obvious if you're right and you could make a killing... or maybe they know plenty you don't and they know that people go for the cheapest ticket even if that means crap seats & service.

    • and charge slightly more

      Fuck that flying easyjet. The response from your customers to your idea.

      Make no mistake, airlines are highly competitive. Customers will and do save every dollar and making an entire flight more expensive than the competition is a fast track to financial ruin.

  • Not for me I'll drive (Score:4, Insightful)

    by AndyKron ( 937105 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:15PM (#58974782)
    Haven't flown since the Patriot Act bullshit and neither should you.

    • I try to avoid flying through the USA, but good luck driving across the ocean.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Misagon ( 1135 )

        Cruise ships tend to have better food and entertainment anyway.

        I live in Europe, and we have trains. They are the best for medium-range travel anyway. Board in the centre of the city. No waiting in line for hours for security checks and check-in: just hop on directly. No privacy-invading facial recognition. With seats facing both directions: more leg-room.
        For almost every flight taking three hours or less, I could take the train instead and ride more comfortably.

        • Cruise ships tend to have better food and entertainment anyway.

          But with only 2 weeks holidays by the time you actually get to Europe you'll need to call your boss and start requesting unpaid leave.

          Funny side note: In Australia we have this thing called "Long Service Leave". It accrues like regular leave except you can't take it until you've been with a company for 8 years. It's calculated to be 3 calendar months. Why? Well as a former colony of her majesty it is recognised that people in Australia may have families at home. The government mandated leave is 4 weeks (tho

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • A 3 hours flight will likely get you out of Europe anyways. Or at least across a large part of the continent, like Rome to Oslo, Madrid to Berlin or Paris to Athens. I don't think these journeys by train save you any time or money anyways.

          The train competes better against shorter flights, less than 2 hours, and where you don't have to cross the sea (the channel tunnel being the exception).

  • Hexagonal packing (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    The reason that passengers have more room when the seats are staggered is because the arrangement of passengers is closer to a hexagonal packing [wikipedia.org], which is the most efficient way to pack circle in a plane. Of course, this mathematical fact has only been proved for the Euclidean plane, but it's probably also true for air planes. (Pun intended!)

  • Instead of this meaningless crap, can we address a *real* problem on airplanes please?

    Like removing all reclining seats FFS?!?

    Don't even talk to me about airline seat changes until they remove reclining...

    • Re:For the love of... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Travelsonic ( 870859 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:48PM (#58974952) Journal
      While it'd seem sensible on commuter flights that require turboprops, or even short flights, there's no way this would fly (no pun intended) on ultra long haul flights.

    • Re:For the love of... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by PrimaryConsult ( 1546585 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @05:14PM (#58975128)

      There is a solution that some international airlines have adopted, but entitled passengers complained about it and got a few airlines to go back to the shitty ones we all know and love:
      "Clamshell" seats, where pushing the recline button allows your seat bottom and the bottom of the back rest to move forward. The exact same recline angle is achieved, but the only personal space being sacrificed is that of the person reclining.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        Because that's dumb. On international flights, everybody reclines, everybody has the same amount of legroom as if nobody was reclined, and everyone is in a position to go the duck to sleep. Passengers who find it difficult to do so should be assisted by chemical means.

        • On international flights, everybody reclines

          On the last few 12+ hour flights I took, that certainly wasn’t my observation (less than half were reclined). I’ve heard people repeat your refrain as if it were true, but saying it over and over again to salve your conscience doesn’t make it so. I’ve actually never once reclined my seat, despite being 6’3” (i.e. just under 2m) and always flying Economy, simply because I find the practice rude and would rather not inflict it on others.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        So your knees go forward into the seat in front? No wonder people complained.

        A properly designed reclining seat doesn't smash the knees of the person behind. The bit that moves back is well above knee height. It's only the upper part of the seat that comes back into "their" space, so it's annoying if they want to use a laptop on the tray table but doesn't injure them.

        • The difference is, it's entirely the recliner's choice as to how to allocate their own space. It doesn't annoy anyone other than the one reclining, unlike the current situation.

          As someone who is self conscious about reclining, it was nice being able to fully recline knowing there was no way I was inconveniencing the person behind. Also, it was nice not having someone's seat back in my face while trying to eat.

          The airline I tried them out on also had 34" pitch in coach, so there's that.

  • Streaching out (Score:3)

    by grumpy_old_grandpa ( 2634187 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:49PM (#58974954)

    One of the few remaining luxuries in the economy cabin is to find that your row of three or even four seats are all empty, and that you've effectively scored a full length bed for an overseas trip. And for people with partners, there is of course a shoulder to sleep on, even with two seats next to each other.

    So no, just no. Leave those seats in a row. And while your at it, break off those elbow dividers which incline to only 45 degree. That's just mean.

  • Emergencies (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DogDude ( 805747 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @05:04PM (#58975056)
    There's no way this'll fly. People need to be able to get out as quickly as possible during emergencies, and nobody will be doing any seat sliding in an emergency.

    • I'm not sure why this is modded up.

      In an emergency with all the seats in their standard non-overlapping position, the aisle space is the same as it currently is. This wouldn't have any negative effect during emergencies.

  • I Am on a Fucking 737 Right Now (Score:3)

    by LifesABeach ( 234436 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @06:38PM (#58975614) Homepage
    I am 5 feet 10 inches, and my knees are jammed into the seat in front of me. WTF

    • That has nothing to do with what plane your on. Tell us what airline you fly. I've been on 737s where I didn't fit. I've been on 737s where my knees didn't touch the seat in front.

  • Wrong problem (Score:3)

    by cnaumann ( 466328 ) on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @07:36PM (#58975918)

    There is no way to make the middle seat wider without shrinking the other seats. That is pretty much a nonstarter.

    THE problem is seat pitch. Mandate a 34” pitch and lots of problems will be solved.

    • Mandate a 34” pitch

      Why? The only thing that will do is increase prices. Just buy a premium economy ticket instead.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Have a look at TFA. Their seat is a bit lower and maybe 10cm further back. This combination means that the seat can be a little wider by not having the arm rest in the hip area, the widest part of most people's bodies.

    • There is no way to make the seat wider by increasing the seat pitch.

      However, you can increase seat width my changing the alignment, since the space a person needs is not of a constant cross-section. This is easiest to see in business-class seat arrangements, particularly that alternate forward and backward facing seats. The widest cross-section is at a person's shoulders and the narrowest at their feet, so if you align one person's shoulders with another's feet you can average out the width.

      In this case, by

  • Cut to a montage of the engineers looking after arrangement after arrangement of seats, looking at clipboards and shaking their heads disapprovingly until they finally find the magic one that works.

  • I'm not seeing the "dedicated elbow room" - you don't get your own armrests. The armrests remain placed for the seats on either side of you, so you don't even get to compete for them. Worse, you're sort of "recessed" below and behind the seats on either side of you - those people will be less aware of you, and they will therefore tend to overlap more into your space.

    Not convinced...

  • Passengers: Airlines, give us better middle seats!!
    Airlines: Come and get them!

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