'Cheating Volkswagen Diesels Have Become A Hot Commodity' (jalopnik.com) 136
Remember the Volkswagen diesel emissions scandal? "In the end, after paying huge fines and seeing key executives head to prison, VW agreed to buy back nearly 380,000 of the offending cars in the United States, to fix or scrap," reports the New York Times.
But this week the director of industry analytics for online car marketplace CarGurus tells them that VW has now added more share in certified pre-owned sales than any other brand.
Jalopnik reports: The resulting used VWs are surprisingly compelling, which is why -- according to a report from the New York Times -- people can't get enough of them... That demand, the story says, is driven by the vehicles' impressive fuel economy, the warranty that the government required VW to offer on all re-sold vehicles, and the dearth of other diesel car options on the market... It's an interesting look at how these once vilified automobiles have once again fallen into favor thanks to what made the vehicles popular in the first place: They are just impressively fuel efficient. Oh, and the government-mandated warranty, too. That helps.
Aexecutive analyst at J.D. Power Valuation Services tells the Times that a used VW now costs about the same as a gas model.
But this week the director of industry analytics for online car marketplace CarGurus tells them that VW has now added more share in certified pre-owned sales than any other brand.
Jalopnik reports: The resulting used VWs are surprisingly compelling, which is why -- according to a report from the New York Times -- people can't get enough of them... That demand, the story says, is driven by the vehicles' impressive fuel economy, the warranty that the government required VW to offer on all re-sold vehicles, and the dearth of other diesel car options on the market... It's an interesting look at how these once vilified automobiles have once again fallen into favor thanks to what made the vehicles popular in the first place: They are just impressively fuel efficient. Oh, and the government-mandated warranty, too. That helps.
Aexecutive analyst at J.D. Power Valuation Services tells the Times that a used VW now costs about the same as a gas model.
Heavy-handed penalties (Score:2, Insightful)
VW probably produced the best diesels ever made, and they got screwed, and many of their customers got screwed. Whomever deemed t
Re:Heavy-handed penalties (Score:5, Insightful)
They weren't punished for the absolute amount of pollution. They were punished for blatant fraud.
Re:Heavy-handed penalties (Score:5, Insightful)
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Does it?
You have a citation?
Not sure about the german version, but I doubt it has such a side line.
And even if you are right: it is not fraud, as fraud has a specific meaning :D cheating in a test is not fraud, might be a crime, I'm ok with that, but not fraud.
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Learn to google. The US law explicitly outlaws "Defeat devices" which are devices or code designed to activate only during the test.
I'd be surprised if the German version didn't also do the same thing, but I'm not going to go look that up, since my German is limited to knowing what a handful of auto parts are called, like the einspritzventils.
Re:Heavy-handed penalties (Score:4, Insightful)
The punishment of VW was insane
No, they lied and attempted to actively cover up their cheating with software. VW deserved to burn, what they got was leniency.
Compare the fines VW was forced to pay to what other companies payed with similar fines
Exactly, other companies are typically let off the hook. They level of leniency the US gives corporations is insane. Equifax. CEO's head should of rolled. BP, should have been sued into a crater. VW, shouldn't even exist anymore. Home Depot, at the very least 50% of the companies value should have been gone and the CEOs and those sitting on the board should be eating tray meat from prison. It's insane how many times I hear "oops, we lied. oops we lost your data. oops, we fucked up." and the US does nothing. Companies should be shuttered for half the crap they do today.
Re:Heavy-handed penalties (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing is... there's a new scandal brewing just recently in that the fix for the cheat is increasingly looking to be a cheat in and of itself. German report here [wallstreet-online.de]. One of the best English-language summaries is here:
Link [youtube.com].
The short of it is that the fix is coded so that it only works when the ambient temperature is between 10-32C (50-90F). Half the days in Germany are outside that temperature range, so the fix is shut off half the time. However, since testing is conducted in that temperature range, the fix is always active during testing. Even worse for VW, their legal strategy to fend off private lawsuits related to Dieselgate is to argue that the statute of limitations has tolled on them. But this would be a new violation and reset the statute of limitations.
Right now, the "cheating fix" has only been confirmed to be in one specific model, but it's widely suspected that if it's in one, it's in a lot more.
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I'm not sure which Germany you live in but I'm pretty sure not a single day of winter last year was above 10C when I was driving to work. The average high temperature in Cologne is below 10C from November to February, the average low is 1C.
But don't take my word for it:
https://www.timeanddate.com/we... [timeanddate.com]
https://www.timeanddate.com/we... [timeanddate.com]
https://www.timeanddate.com/we... [timeanddate.com]
https://www.timeanddate.com/we... [timeanddate.com]
There's three and a half straight months in the most populated region of Germany where the temperature got abo
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When I'm in Germany, I live in Karlsruhe. In Winter probably the warmest and in summer Â, behind Freiburg, the second warmest place in Germany.
45 Years ago during the time periods you mention, the temperature would be -30C
minus 30 degrees celsius
But as you seem to live close by ... what about some KÃlsch in Cologne? I'm there once or twice a year :D
Re:Heavy-handed penalties (Score:4, Interesting)
Not to mention that VW WAS NOT AMERICAN!
After all, the good ole US of A exempt all their 'heavy trucks' (read: RVs, big SUVs, most Pickups) from emissions, but then needed to punish 1300cc diesels for not meeting guidelines that were actually tighter than the equivalent petrol car..
Why? Because we live in the Idiocracy, of course (and I'm talking planet earth, not the US..)
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It's not idiocracy, it's profitocracy, and in recognizing profit as the objective one immediately sees that there is less idiocy in the decision making than one could otherwise think. While there is, of course, reason in the saying "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", sometimes the development of insight is impeded by holding people for stupider than they are.
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My 3/4 ton is definitely not exempt from emissions. In fact I am constantly having to take it in to have the EGR replaced because it is a faulty design. It lasts about 40k miles before it starts leaking coolant into the intake, which fouls the DOC if left alone for too long.
My truck has 500lbs of emissions control equipment on it, reducing fuel economy by 50%.
No, definitely not exempt.
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''In fact I am constantly having to take it in to have the EGR replaced because it is a faulty design.''
The issue is that you don't understand. It's failure isn't a fault, it's a feature. It's working perfectly.
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Could you point to some documentation on that 50% reduction number? Modern truck engines are listed at 100%-150% better fuel economy than their 1970s counterparts, and a bit part of that it the reduction of wasted fuel, heat, and energy that went out the tailpipe in older designs.
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50% is BS, but I have read that DPF can cost over 5%. They also have to be cleaned or replaced eventually, and they are expensive and the cleaning is expensive. They only clog a lot and require much active regen if you idle a lot. If you load them up and get them hot, they will regen passively. Still, people using trucks for actual work (like snow plowing, or around a job site) may wind up having to regen manually, and that can cost a half-gallon of fuel per event. Some brands have been known to clog their
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After all, the good ole US of A exempt all their 'heavy trucks' (read: RVs, big SUVs, most Pickups) from emissions,
My 3/4 ton is definitely not exempt from emissions.
Your 3/4 ton is definitely not a heavy truck, so he's wrong. It's a light truck. But your 3/4 ton does only have to meet a lesser standard, so he's got a point.
Heavy trucks are OTR trucks, and maybe some really big coach buses. They have ~10+L engines. 10L is pretty puny for a heavy truck really.
Medium trucks are buses, box trucks, most fire trucks, that scale of vehicle. They hopefully have medium duty engines like the 8.3l Cummins ISC, or the International DT466. Usually the output is cranked up higher, l
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No kidding (Score:3)
I was really sad to sell my Passat TDI back to VW. I seriously thought about keeping it but they made too good an offer. It was a great car.
One thing I never saw was any really numeric reporting about how bad the scandal was. I know they "vastly" exceeded the limits. I think it was something like doubling the allowable emissions. So, how bad is that, exactly? If we're talking 1 microgram of sulfur dioxide per year, well perhaps that's not actually that bad. If we're talking one kilogram of SO2 per mile, well that's something different.
What I'm trying to say is I don't know how stringent the standards were. I'm suspicious they were set at an extremely low level and exceeding them, even by a lot, might not actually be very harmful.
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I had two of them, a 2010 Golf and a 2013 Beetle. The fact is that the CR (Common Rail) VW diesel's with their particulate filters and regeneration systems were so clean that they qualified for ULEV (Ultra Low Emission Vehicles). You could literally put a white tissue on the tail pipe, start the car and rev it and it was still completely clean. They never even smelled.
The PROBLEM was the Nitrous Oxide filter. The cars would emit more than the allowable amount when running. VW (and Audi, and Porsche) pu
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I don't see ICE vehicles disappearing in the US anytime soon in the near future.
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...and they adjusted fuel mixture and timing so that with the filter they installed they would pass the test. However, the filter was too small (as far as I understand it) and running the car under those conditions all the time decreased fuel economy.
Right, thanks for refreshing my memory.
What I never saw was anything describing what the allowable NO limits are, how much NO a cheating vehicle (my Passat, to be specific) emitted, and what the practical effect of this would be.
I live in Santa Clara valley in California. I know NO emissions are a problem: they are a significant contributor to smog. In the years I've lived here, I've observed smog levels dramatically decreasing and air clarity dramatically improving. That's wonderful. I don't know how much
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I have a 2015 Jetta. I decided to take the hush money and let them fix it.
Still gets insane highway mileage. City is about 3-5 MPG less than it used to be.
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Still gets insane highway mileage. City is about 3-5 MPG less than it used to be.
On a trip from Yosemite back to San Jose, my Passat got over 75 MPG. Now, that's downhill most of the way but that's still insane.
OTOH, my daughter in her Prius tells me she gets that commuting between here and Palo Alto so I'm less impressed than I used to be.
Finally, someone pointed out something to me. While you and I are (or were) getting great MPG, diesel is a more carbon-dense fuel than gasoline. You generate more carbon dioxide by burning a gallon of diesel. As a result, I needed to be a little less
Re:No kidding (Score:5, Informative)
It's generally NOx and particulates which are the problem with diesels. They actually emit less CO2 per mile than an equivalent gasoline vehicle. And sulfur dioxide emissions are mostly negligible ever since ultra-low sulfur diesel was mandated nationwide. NOx is dealt with by adding DEF (diesel exhaust fluid - ammonia which converts the NO2 into nitrogen gas, water, and CO2). Particulates (carbon) are trapped by a filter, and when the filter gets full they're burned off to convert the carbon into CO2.
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Particulates (carbon) are trapped by a filter, and when the filter gets full they're burned off to convert the carbon into CO2.
Unfortunately, some of it just turns into PM2.5 instead. Old school crusty old diesels produce almost none of that. All the other problems are pretty well solved, but diesels still make soot. Then again, so do gassers, and theirs is pretty much all PM2.5...
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This comment, of all the all the ones in this section, deserves a +5 informative.
Those graphs are stark.
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These authors did a really clever study [chicagofed.org] (PDF here [chicagofed.org]) in which they used county-level auto registration data to find the distribution of cheating diesels, and used that as a natural experiment on their impact on infant health. Infants were chosen because they are more sensitive to environmental inputs, but also because it avoids the cumulative effect of decades of history that you get when looking at adult health.
They find a statistically significant impact between the cars and EPA measurements of pollutants (
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Thanks, this looks like a really interesting paper. I'm surprised and dismayed that they found such a large effect. I feel better about trading my Passat in now.
Not all diesels are VW. (Score:2)
I drive a 1986 Isuzu Trooper diesel, what other SUV that size gives you 25 mpg?
It is slow,and can emit a bit of smoke, but it need not.
Useful for smoking tailgaters though.
I race a VW. (Score:2, Insightful)
Anyone who thinks a used VW is worth more than scrap is stupid.
They are horribly engineered cars.
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This! When I moved to Europe I was majorly apprehensive about buying a Renault and I did it anyway. When I called a tow-truck (my own fault, flat battery), and he took me back to his garage I quipped about buying a French car. The guy pointed to the service yard of all the cars they've towed here and pointed out that it's full of only German cars.
Just an anecdote.
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Anyone who has been following closely the automotive websites, blogs, etc for the last 15 years or so knows that Volkswagen Auto Group cars (VW, Audi, Porsche) have horrendously bad reputations for reliability. From engine sludge or electric gremlins to bombing Porsche engines with IMS issues, you can expect the VAG group to reliably produce cars that will spend a long time in car shops and their value will tank after the warranty period.
But the funny thing is, the Europeans are significantly more patriotic
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Europeans usually don't drive the cars for that long, 100000 km is normally considered pretty much the maximum possible. That probably explains the difference in reliability perception.
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Pretty sad. We used to expect to keep a car long enough to have to rebuild the engine, and it would last that long, too. And there were enough machinists (and machine shops) that you could expect to have the work done for a reasonable price. Today, many towns don't even have a machine shop any more.
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Fair enough. In USA people commute 50 miles a day, ONE WAY, every day, and they will readily drive 500-800 miles simply to attend a party or whatever. So basically, an American expects a car to last at least 100 thousand miles without major repairs. The Japanese have fit this bill. The Europeans have not. European cars look very nice and have a pretty badge in front, but they start falling apart even before their warranty period expires,
]
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Yeah, right. Their volume of sales will go puff once American and European dealerships stop having Fusion/Mondeo for sale, as well as Focus, Fiesta, etc. Ford simply gave up a chunk of NA and global market because its CEO are idiots and don't know how to compete.. After all, Accord, Civic, Corolla, and Camry are still in the sedan market. Don't tell me about the BS about EPA. Ford is exiting this market because it LOST and it doesn't want or doesn't know how to compete.
I Drove a Diesel A3 and it sucked (Score:5, Insightful)
My latest car is an A3 and before getting it I was given a Diesel version for a weekend test drive. This car had the updated software with the resulting performance being incredibly poor (my old Prius would have blown the doors off it) and the mileage it got was downright awful (12+ l/100km highway driving or 18 mpg). I ended up getting the A3 with the 1.8 TFSI and found that I had a) a rocket sled and b) a lot better mileage than the Diesel I had for three days (7 l/100km or 33 mpg). The test drive experience left me thinking that everyone at VW involved in the scandal deserved to go to jail.
All I can say is that if you go out and look for one of these cars to buy, then when the revolution comes you should be first to go up against the wall.
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Not all modern turbo diesels use adblue or ammonia, my Mazda CX5 diesel meets NO2 spec fine just on standard diesel. Excellent fuel economy and bags of torque.
All round, it’s the best car I’ve ever owned. No repairs at all so far at 70,000 miles.
Re:I Drove a 2016 Diesel A3 and it sucked (Score:2)
Interesting, I wasn't aware of what's done in Diesel for emissions control.
But, the vehicle I drove was a 2016. It was one of the last one built before the scandal hit - the salespeople at the dealership said that they felt it was a pretty decent car (although they weren't allowed to sell it, which is why it was a loaner).
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This comment started out with a lot of useful information, but then went south, because of factual inaccuracies.
Because diesel engines combust the fuel by compressing it until it auto-ignites, rather than ignite it with a spark plug, they're more efficient than a gasoline ICE.
No, they're more efficient because they run lean all the time (except under maximum acceleration) and because they have higher cylinder pressures than gasoline vehicles, although that latter reason is vanishing what with the proliferation of turbocharged direct injected gasoline engines (GDI). The fuel also costs less [energy] to produce. Producing a spark takes very little energy compared to movi
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My latest car is an A3 and before getting it I was given a Diesel version for a weekend test drive.
Interesting. When I was first looking for a diesel car (in 2014?), I considered both the Passat and BMW 535d. The BMW was also a rocket: the thing had so much torque the acceleration just never stopped. It was way fun. Problem was, it's EPA mileage was barely any better than the 535i, the corresponding gas model. And the diesel cost a few thousand dollars more.
VW seemed to have a different strategy. The diesel Passat had barely any price premium over the gas model and I would routinely achieve 45 MPG on a t
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I owned a 2013 A3 TDI. The only thing I didn't like about it was that I couldn't get it with Quattro. I sold it mainly because my needs had changed and because it was too good a deal to pass up (basically I got to drive a vehicle for about $1000 per year and miles didn't matter). It was plenty quick for my use, but I'm not trying to get a suspended license either.
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Sure the 1.8TFSI is a great engine, for as long as it lasts, they have a serieus oil consumption problem.
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Or a sample space of three vehicles isn't representative of the entire population.
Car love over pollution, seriously? (Score:3, Insightful)
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How much NOx did a "cheating" 2013 Jetta TDI emit in comparison to a same-year Ford F350 "work truck" that someone drives around as a passenger car?
And no I'm not talking about ones that "cheat" either:
https://www.caranddriver.com/n... [caranddriver.com]
It seems to me that the EPA lets larger diesel vehicles designated as "work trucks" emit a ton of NOx (probably more than what a VW TDI emitted) even though many people use these "work trucks" as "lifestyle trucks" instead.
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California requires that you register 3/4 ton pickups and vans as commercial vehicles whether they're for personal use or not, and maybe even some of the bigger 1/2 ton ones (I'm not sure where the line is) so if they just required you to take an additional license test to drive any commercial vehicle, that would screen out many of those drivers. Just make them know all the stuff that commercial drivers have to know, and many of them will fail.
Probably it's a good idea to make RV drivers take the test, too.
Re: Car love over pollution, seriously? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: Car love over pollution, seriously? (Score:5, Informative)
You know that Nitrous Oxide is laughing gas right? VW TDIs emitted (as you say) 40x the allowable limit of laughing gas. The only known health effect of NOx is temporary mental impairment
Maybe you need to put down the nitrous oxide inhaler: Nitrous oxide is N2O.
NOx (note where the "x" is placed) is a mixture of mainly NO and NO2, which are both highly toxic and react in the atmosphere to form things like smog, acid rain and ozone.
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I think you're getting Nitrus Oxide and Nitric Oxide, and Nitrogen Dioxied confused. The latter 2 are emitted by cars, the former is inhaled at music festivals.
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Reminds me of the Canadian politician who claims that CO2 is not pollutant, because humans exhale it, and plants need it.
Reality Check: Maxime Bernier CO2 Pollution [globalnews.ca].
What next: water cannot drown you because it is necessary for life?
That's a very US-centric phenomenon (Score:5, Insightful)
Here in Europe, there are plenty of small diesel cars, and sales have all but dried up for two reasons:
- The price of diesel fuel is on par with gasoline, if not higher.
- People hold on to their cars - diesel or gasoline - for as long as possible, because with the advent of electric cars, now is the worst time to buy a ICE car, since the resale value will plummet in a few years.
Also, the article seems to suggest 40mpg if good gas mileage for an econobox. I don't know, my Fiat long-wheelbase minivan with its 1.3L diesel four-banger and a little hypermiling gets more than 50mpg. It's not unusual here. Different standards I guess...
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Maybe TFA is using US gallons, which are smaller than UK gallons.
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- Politicians ban cars from under our asses.
Cars that were legal to drive yesterday might get banned tomorrow. You could buy a new car meeting all the regulations and standards and some politician might ban you from using it right after you drove off the dealership lot.
Electric cars won't be a thing for the average person for a long time. They are simply too expensive and only viable for people who own a garage, which in Europe aren't all that many.
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Here in Europe, there are plenty of small diesel cars, and sales have all but dried up for two reasons:
You forgot reason three, which for some people is reason 1. They're banning diesels from some european city centers. Where will they ban them next? That uncertainty has got to have a serious chilling effect on sales.
Sounds like their value has gone down (Score:2)
I shopped for a diesel VW (I needed it to tow a boat) shortly before the scandal broke. At the time, a diesel had a nearly $10,000 price premium over an equivalent model and trim level gasoline engine. If their price is now equal to a gasoline model, then it's actually fallen in value. (FWIW, the payout I got from VW and Bosch as compensation for devaluation of my TDI due to the sca
I never understood the USA diesel cult (Score:2)
Within the car-buying demographic there has always been this tiny but very vocal community of German diesel car fans. But their obsession with Euro diesels didn't seem to make any rational sense to me. Let's start the prices. Often a diesel VW, BMW, etc. costs more than exactly the same car model with a petrol engine. So, once you walk out of the car dealership, you're already 2-4K USD in red compared to buying a petrol car. Next issue is the diesel prices. Where I live, diesel is normally 40-60 cents more
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I had very sad news for you.
Diesel will need stabilizers added to be stored for six months to a year (and that's the MAX recommended)
Gasoline can last 2 years with stabilizers. Yup, longer.
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Mister, please learn English grammer and then return to babble about how great it is to store diesel.
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Diesel will need stabilizers added to be stored for six months to a year (and that's the MAX recommended)
Gasoline can last 2 years with stabilizers. Yup, longer.
With biocide to prevent fungal growth, and using a water separator filter on the tank outlet, you can literally keep diesel for a decade. Yup, longer.
I've run cars on three-year-old gas, but it's not a good idea. It will leave deposits in the fuel system.
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No. diesel will not keep a decade, there is no competent guide that suggests that. That's chat forum BS. 1 year max, that's the experts limit, it might go longer in climate or storage 65 deg C or lower but it's a crap shoot.
In 2004 the FEMA found half of standby generators failed in hurricane Charlie, because diesel was stored too long.
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diesel will not keep a decade, there is no competent guide that suggests that. [...] In 2004 the FEMA found half of standby generators failed in hurricane Charlie, because diesel was stored too long.
They probably needed a better biocide.
You're not supposed to be able to store gasoline for more than a year even with stabilizers, but I have, and it still burned.
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Diesel doesn't store as well as you might imagine, hence the many fuel filtration systems and stabilization treatments used in industry.
If you want storeable fuel you can't beat LPG. It's cleaner too hence its use indoors in forklifts and other equipment. Autos are easy to convert.
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Blah blah blah, we all need to drive diesel cars because it's apparently a great idea to store diesel fuel on our property, for YEARS, even though petrol has been stupid cheap for a decade.
Moronic idiot poster (Score:2)
This problem with gasoline if you stockpile it? Seriously? Why people even respond to this? Please go back to the rock you have been living under, and where you have been apparently stockpiling gasoline and diesel. What a perfect slashdot troll.
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Look for a Cup Edition Jetta (Score:2)
Jetta TDI Cup Edition would be the one to get. But you should probably try to "undo" the fix to get the performance back. Make one heck of a good track day car. When I was shopping for a TDI they were selling for more than new 2012/13 Jettas. If I had bought one I would have probably just kept it, unmolested (there's no requirement to do anything to the vehicle if you don't live in a smog check area, just a recommendation).
https://www.greencarreports.co... [greencarreports.com]
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Jetta TDI Cup Edition would be the one to get. But you should probably try to "undo" the fix to get the performance back.
For most diesels you can not only tune them beyond what the manufacturer originally intended, but also outright disable emissions equipment like the EGR. Some vehicles' EGR systems are known to foul the intake valves, and by simply not using it (or only using it when temps are very high) you can solve that problem. I pulled the EGR off one older diesel because it failed and spewed soot all over my fucking motor, and our biggest motor doesn't have one, but I've left it alone on the Sprinter because it's work
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Maybe it was written by M-M-M-Max Headdddrooom....?
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Just the opposite is about to happen in the near-term, however: bunker fuel used by ships is being forced to reformulate to a low-sulfur form that's basically equivalent to diesel (the only way ships can continue using the high-sulfur fuel is if they install better scrubbers... which itself is a problem in that the cheapest ones dump the sulfur into the ocean, but if they choose that option, they run the risk of that being banned in the future). The shift in bunker fuel will compete for the same refining
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Re:cold start (Score:4, Informative)
Diesel does not give more towing capacity. That is a myth. Gasoline engines have more output per liter because they spin faster, and you can gear down to get torque. Diesel gives more EFFICIENCY, because it runs lean anytime but during wide open acceleration (You can tell when they're running rich because of the smoke) and because it turns slower, which for larger engines makes a substantial difference. And also because the higher combustion temperatures make for greater efficiency. Turbocharged direct injected gasoline engines have many of the same benefits, but they cost just as much as diesels since they have basically all the same parts.
One of my brothers had a V10 Dodge pickup because he worked in construction and needed to tow backhoes and such. It was actually nicer to drive while towing than a diesel, it was much more responsive. But it also ate about twice as much fuel while towing, literally. If it had been highway miles, the diesel would have made much more sense. Since it was only short trips around town, the gasser was fine.
We have a bus to rv conversation. It's got a Cummins ISC 250. It weighs ten tons at the curb. I shudder to think of what the mileage would be like with a gasoline engine. It would need one of those V10s for the torque, and probably get about 5mpg at best.
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Gee, and I always accepted the scientific/thermodynamic explanation that it was the higher compression ratio that made diesels (and gasoline race engines) more efficient due to a larger different between the hot and cold sides. [...] Running lean has zero to do with that.
Diesels aren't just more efficient because of compression ratio, or turbocharged gassers would be just as efficient as diesels. They are also more efficient because they are always lean. Until warmed up, gassers run rich. While cruising or idling hot, gasoline engines go rich-lean-rich-lean endlessly. While at WOT, gasoline engines run rich again. And all this is true even of the direct injected ones. Diesels run lean any time they're not accelerating hard. And the minimum temperatures tend to be higher bec
actually, Diesel is cleaner (Score:2)
Except that it is not. Turbo Diesel (in a good design) is cleaner per km (and WAY less CO2), burns more efficiently (giving more output), leaks less volatiles, and is cheaper to produce.
Why is it being pushed out? Its significantly LESS PROFITABLE for fuel companies..
Who would have guessed.
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And that nasty NOx thing.
NOx is nearly zero with DEF. And now we're getting direct-injected gassers which make NOx if you're not careful with tuning. Maybe gasoline engines will need DEF in one of their final generations.
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There is a reason why most large internal combustion engines are Diesels, be it ship engines, train engines or trucks.
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The Diesel engine is more efficient than the gas engine, as it operates at higher pressures (see Carnot cycle).
You can attain the same kind of pressure in a gasoline engine with turbocharging and direct injection, because at higher RPM you can run more boost. But the diesel is still more efficient, because it doesn't have to do more RPM.
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The main reason diesel was cheaper is twofold. First, there's more of it produced during refining and second, it is taxed lower (in most countries) because trucks and agriculture machinery uses it as fuel.
Then those pesky consumers came and wanted to save on taxes, too, and we can't have that!
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The main reason diesel was cheaper is twofold. First, there's more of it produced during refining and second, it is taxed lower (in most countries) because trucks and agriculture machinery uses it as fuel.
Then those pesky consumers came and wanted to save on taxes, too, and we can't have that!
Ag diesel doesn't get road taxes, but road diesel does. Ag diesel is dyed red, and using it once will dye your tank for hundreds of changes if you don't drop it and drain it. Supposedly you can filter it out with zeolites or something.
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Diesel is probably further from disappearing than gasoline because EVs can replace gasoline easier than diesel. Diesel is used for long range trips that batteries can't do.
It also doesn't matter as much as you think that diesel costs as much as gasoline. First, that cost is due to taxation. Diesel is cheaper to make than gasoline, but it's taxed more. Governments would like to continue enjoying that revenue. Second, the MPG difference is compelling even in light duty vehicles, it still saves more than it co
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Diesel can also be synthesized from non-fossil sources (soybeans, seaweed) at only extremely high cost compared to the ruinous cost of synthesizing gasoline, and would remain vastly easier to handle than hydrogen. So in the long term I would expect vehicles to converge to electric, diesel, and hydrogen, probably in t
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I said "As long as diesel provides massive range improvements over electric, it will hang around. You can make diesel out of any lipid, so you can make it from algae, or from waste chicken fat,"
Then you said some irrelevant shit about worst cases like soy and seaweed.
If you can't stay on topic, go away.
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You are partially correct in that I did not read the final paragraphs of your original post thoroughly enough. Although I see no harm in emphasizing that point in the context of the discussion.
You then proceeded to some gratuitous argument-by-superiority and argument ad homenim, concluding with a ridiculous request that other participants in the discussion "go away" if they don
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I apologize for leaping directly to asshole.
In my defense, most people who don't read the whole comment are just going on to be a dick for the sake of being one, and in my flow, your response was sandwiched between two such comments.
I'll try to calm my knee. I hope you'll try to read.
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Still only halfway there.
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Well then, start reading.
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Ok you got me...what the hell is a "neighborhood parking patrol"??
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