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Modified Tesla Model S Reportedly Outguns Porsche Taycan at Nurburgring (cnet.com) 145

Posted by msmash from the catch-me-if-you-can dept.
Tesla is being a busy bee at the Nurburgring Nordschleife, and after multiple videos and rumors, we have our first idea of how capable its modified Model S electric sedan is. From a report: Road & Track reported Tuesday that the stripped-down Model S clocked a lap time of 7:23. Do note, that is not an official time and comes from well-placed sources hand-timing the electric car with a clear view of the track. It also happens to be 20 seconds quicker than the Porsche Taycan's lap time at the 'Ring. However, what's impressive is that this time comes during an industry-pool session.

This is when all automakers are free to make rounds around the track, which leads to traffic. At the end of the day, the time doesn't reflect the car's full potential. It's not possible to clock a flying lap during an industry-pool session. If we do get an official time this week, expect it to be even quicker than 7:23. At the same time, the magazine's sources also described the fact that this Model S is nowhere near close to the kind of electric sedan Tesla sells to buyers. It's rumored to house a new three-motor powertrain (one motor for each rear wheel) and sports plenty of variations outside. They include wider tires, reportedly Goodyear Eagle F1 Supersport RS rubber, fender flares to help cover the extra width and a massive gurney flap at the rear. Massive carbon-ceramic brakes are supposedly hiding behind the wheels, too.
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Modified Tesla Model S Reportedly Outguns Porsche Taycan at Nurburgring More

Modified Tesla Model S Reportedly Outguns Porsche Taycan at Nurburgring

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  • They've gone into plaid (Score:4, Informative)

    by McGruber ( 1417641 ) on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @05:23PM (#59205810)

    It's rumored to house a new three-motor powertrain (one motor for each rear wheel)

    Since the new powertrain makes the car faster than Tesla's Ludicrous mode, Musk refers to it as going into plaid.

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @05:27PM (#59205828)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by oddtodd ( 125924 )

      The Nurburgring is no parlor trick.
      It's not called The Green Hell for lulz, although it is much, MUCH nicer now than it was when it earned that sobriquet.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      No one cares how well a production car would do in LeMans against purpose built race cars. If they did they would make them with batteries that can be swapped out in seconds.

      But I do enjoy watching old people continue to move the goal posts. So now unless stock, electric cars you can go down to buy and drive on the street can compete in LeMans, it's just "a parlor" trick. Just sell your GM stock, already.

      • You can't buy the Tesla in this article either. Nor do we have confirmation of those numbers. Anyone believing "leaked" numbers from Tesla should know better at this point.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Anonymous Coward
          That's right, it's a new three engine version not available yet, which will be a production car. You can argue all you want, but this isn't a LeMans prototype and isn't designed to be, and comparing it to one is beyond ridiculous. But I do love your baseless "leak" accusation, that's adorable.

        • Re:Cool parlor trick. (Score:5, Informative)

          by Rei ( 128717 ) on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @06:56PM (#59206132) Homepage

          It's not "leaked numbers from Tesla". It's from people who monitor the track. One of whom [twitter.com] had just written an article for Jalopnik titled The Nürburgring Is No Place For Elon Musk’s Bullshit [jalopnik.com], and after confirming this news, admitted to having to eat humble pie [twitter.com] (to his credit - good sport).

          As for the Road & Track sour grapes article:

          Here's what they're calling a stock Taycan: Pic 1 [twimg.com] Pic 2 [twimg.com]
          Here's what they're calling a "stripped-down Model S": Pic 1 [twimg.com] (note the passenger seat) Pic 2 [twimg.com] (passenger door trim/upholstery) Pic 3 [twimg.com] (driver door trim/upholstery)

          The Taycan is very clearly stripped and modified. Nothing visible thusfar about the Tesla suggests any sort of stripping.

          Road and Track wants to complain about pre-production vehicles? Let's check the date of the Taycan's run... 26 August [motortrend.com]. Now let's check when the Taycan went into production... why, 9 September [autoblog.com]! That wasn't a "Taycan Turbo" or a "Taycan Turbo S"; it was a pre-prodution vehicle (not that there's much of a difference between the two regardless; they have the exact same sustained horsepower; the Turbo S simply has a more powerful straightline burst for the first 2,5s before hitting the thermal limits).

          They want to talk about it not being an official record? Neither was the Porsche's time. [nuerburgring.de] And yes, people have contacted the track, and the track has confirmed that it's not an official record.

          I've never seen such a bunch of crybabies as most of the Porsche fans reacting to the news that the 400-417km [cleantechnica.com] $150-$250k [porsche.com] 4-seat hit-your-head-in-the-back [youtube.com] Taycan got trounced by a 590-610km [tesla.com] 5+2 seat [twitter.com] Model S with its hands tied behind its back by being in an industry session - and can almost be beaten [twitter.com] by a $56k [tesla.com] Model 3 Performance in one lap, and easily beaten in multiple laps [twitter.com] by said mid-level family sedan because the Porsche would run out of charge?. How about the next time you spend 6,6 billion dollars [designboom.com] on a programme, you make a better car with it?

          (That said, not all have reacted like that. Again, kudos to Robb for being a good sport, and others like him.)

          • Re:Cool parlor trick. (Score:4, Informative)

            by Rei ( 128717 ) on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @07:14PM (#59206186) Homepage

            And as for the "Plaid" P100D+ Model S vs. the current "Raven" Model S LR Performance / Ludicrous: The exact number and properties of the cars Tesla has at the track is unknown. At first it was thought that there were two - one red Plaid and one blue Raven - but now there seems to be three (two Plaid, one Raven), or perhaps just two Plaids; it's not quite clear. It'll become clear over the coming weeks exactly what Tesla's plans are; their first day with the track reserved for official times is tomorrow, but they also have two more dates later this month.

            Plaid is the new three-motor variant, due out next fall, priced above the Model S LR Ludicrous ($100k) but below the entry-level Taycan ($150k). Distinguishing features are fender flares to accommodate the wider tires, and a larger air intake in the front. It was the known red Plaid that beat the Taycan's time by 20 seconds during the industry session today.

            'Raven' is an evolved and more powerful version of the Model 3's powertrain that replaced the dual-induction powertrain in the Model S and Model X. Contrary to popular myth, it's not the battery pack that used to overheat on the Model S and X, but rather, the rotors on the induction motors (they're difficult to cool effectively).

            While Model 3 has always had sustained track performance with only minimal fade, typical of ICE track cars. While it has a front induction motor, its primary purpose is to boost off the line and out of corners; whenever the pedal is up at all, the induction motor gets throttled down or idled. Primary propulsion comes from the more efficient and overheat-resistant PMSRM at the rear (less heat is generated, and it's overwhelmingly generated in the stator, which is trivially cooled).

            'Raven', which started deliveries this summer, takes the same arrangement, only reversed - the PMSRM is in the front, and the induction motor is in the rear. It's so far seen very little time on the track; I've seen some videos of people doing quarter mile runs with it, but not seen anyone try laps with it yet. In theory - since its drivetrain is a boosted version of the 3's - it should have similar sustained performance as the 3. Hopefully we'll get a nice track run out of it soon - until then, it's an unknown. The 'Raven' upgrade also came with a new adaptive suspension system.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Not a production car, and probably has a one lap limit.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by JBMcB ( 73720 )

        No one cares how well a production car would do in LeMans against purpose built race cars.

        There are four classes of cars allowed at 24 hours of Le Mans. Two for "prototype" purpose-built race cars, and two for modified production cars. Tesla could totally race in Le Mans if they wanted to.

      • You can reduce weight of electric cars a lot if you use a battery that lasts just one lap. This is why the performance of a useful car is nowhere near that. And that gap will be muc larger than for a petrol car.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Now15 ( 9715 )

          The quantity of battery isn't just important for range, it also determines the maximum number of watts that can be pulled by the motor—and thus the upper limit of performance.

          This is why the upcoming Tesla Roadster is said to have a 200kWh battery pack. It's for performance, not range.

          (MAYBE you could replace some battery with comparatively lightweight supercapacitors, but then you've only got max power when the caps are charged. The electric equivalent of turbo lag, perhaps.)

          • You don't have to add more batteries for more power. The power you get out of a battery is determined by its electrode size and conductor strength. So you just need batteries which are designed for higher power.

  • But honestly there isn't a single Tesla I think is a nice looking car. It's bit like comparing a genuine lego block to a kreo. Both get the job done, but the kreo is simply lacking in finish and quality and appeal

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Now15 ( 9715 )

      Unquestionably. Tesla are still mid-tier when it comes to materials, fit and finish etc. That said, it's all relative. Compared to other cars made by Porsche, I think the Taycan is fairly ugly—those drippy melty headlights are distractingly hideous. Whereas the Model 3 looks quite nice for an American car.

      (I might have bought a Tesla 3 but for the all-glass roof. I hate sunroofs and where I live, the sun is very hot in summer. Also my current car is perfectly fine.)

  • ... stripped-down Model S clocked a lap time of 7:23. ... 20 seconds quicker than the Porsche Taycan's lap time ... this Model S is nowhere near close to the kind of electric sedan Tesla sells to buyers.

    So is this a "stripped-down and severely tweaked" Tesla Model S (that no one can buy) vs. a stock Porsche Taycan that anyone can buy? If so, so what. Someone could probably do this with a Honda Civic -- or various other Fast & Furious vehicles. Hell, I've ridden a motorcycle that could probably smoke both of these vehicles w/o breaking a sweat.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      That's correct, it is a new three engine version not available yet. And who knows what it will cost with this new configuration, but I assume less than the $150k Taycan (starting price). I'm not sure why everyone is so butthurt by this. And let's be clear, it didn't just barely beat the Taycan - it crushed it and this wasn't even a flying lap. Of course this was a completely stripped car as well, probably a couple hundred pounds lighter. So we'll just have to wait for the official results from Tesla.
    • The Civic Type R does indeed have an excellent Nurburgring time of 7:43 which is the fastest for any production front-wheel drive car, with these caveats: "A floating roll cage was added for safety reasons, but Honda claims that the cage did not improve the rigidity of the frame. In order to compensate for the extra weight of the roll cage, Honda removed the rear seats and display audio system. The record-setting Type R was also outfitted with street-legal track focused tires."

      As for Tesla, 7:23 is pretty

    • No, not really.
      According to Musk the car has 7 seats (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1172030269756305408) tweaked sure, but I wouldn't call that 'stripped down'.

      And according to Porsche it's a prototype (https://youtu.be/8m31EgQkswg?t=7) and the final stock version only started production on September 9th, so it will be a while before anyone can just buy one.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by balbeir ( 557475 )
        You are probably right. I would say the reality is that one prototype beat another prototype.

        But given that Tesla has a big efficiency edge over the Porsche, it probably has a lot of options to trade efficiency for speed.

    • Maybe (Score:5, Informative)

      by Goonie ( 8651 ) <.robert.merkel. .at. .benambra.org.> on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @06:12PM (#59206010) Homepage

      Hell, I've ridden a motorcycle that could probably smoke both of these vehicles w/o breaking a sweat.

      Above 100 mph in a straight line, sure. Around the Nurburgring? Only if you're both very skilled and brave - and can persuade Nurburgring management to let you try.

      This guy [motorcyclenews.com] apparently has the fastest recorded "bridge-to-gantry" time of 7:10. That's on a production Yamaha YZF-R1 - a road-registerable sports bike that anyone can buy. But the circuit management won't allow closed-road record attempts on motorcycles because of the unacceptably high risk of dying in the process. There are multiple deaths [nurburgring.org.uk] and many more serious injuries at the Nurburgring every year, and the majority are motorcyclists.

      • 2-wheels vs 4-wheels would be a different story. Most super motorcycle can do that or even better.

      • Above 100 mph in a straight line, sure. Around the Nurburgring?

        The Nurburgring is "straight as a dog's hind leg".

        Only if you're both very skilled and brave - and can persuade Nurburgring management to let you try.

        On the weekend that rode as a passenger on the Nurburgring on an "amateur weekend" there were plenty of motorcycles there. Although you wouldn't be able to hit any speed records, because of the other traffic.

        There are multiple deaths [nurburgring.org.uk] and many more serious injuries at the Nurburgring every year, and the majority are motorcyclists.

        After our laps, my friend pointed to a motorcycle that was being hauled away outside the track area. The driver was OK. My friend told me that the bike was a Ducati, and that the driver had just turned a 10,000€+ motorcycle into scrap.

      • The NHTSA reports that 13 cars out of every 100,000 are involved in a fatal accident, but motorcycles have a fatality rate of 72 per 100,000. ... For every mile traveled, motorcyclists have a risk of a fatal accident that is 35 times higher than a car driver.

        So, much like real world driving, then...

      • That lap was a thing of beauty and a joy forever. Perfect outside-inside-outside, such long turns, using the entire road (except to be courteous). He was totally in the zone. +1.

      • Hell, I've ridden a motorcycle that could probably smoke both of these vehicles w/o breaking a sweat.

        Above 100 mph in a straight line, sure. Around the Nurburgring? Only if you're both very skilled and brave - and can persuade Nurburgring management to let you try.

        Well... I said I've ridden a bike that could probably do that, not that I could do it on that bike. In this case, the machine was *way* more capable than its rider. :-) Also, while I've done 110 on a motorcycle on the interstate, I'm not stupid/crazy enough to try, or think I could do, that on the Nurburgring -- at least not without more time, training, practice and health insurance than I can afford.

        I'd like to note that I've ridden a bike and driven a car at 110 and it's *way* scarier on the bike -- i

        • On a liter-class sportbike 110 mph is what happens when you switch it on and don't switch it off quite soon enough; in the blink of an eye. For those bikes 110 isn't even trying. On mine I've hit over 150, and on the first ride I crossed close to 110 just passing and watching where I was going rather than the speedo. They are incredibly quick, but on a closed course a lot of skill is required. I wouldn't try it myself.

          • On a liter-class sportbike 110 mph is what happens when you switch it on and don't switch it off quite soon enough; ...

            In this particular case, mine was a Suzuki 380GT -- 3-cylinder (w/ 3 coils, 3 carburetors), 2-stroke, oil-injected engine -- and 110 was almost as fast as it could go. I've ridden larger bikes, but this one was pretty fun. Being a 2-stroke, it was pretty responsive.

      • As I stated above, taking a BtG time and adding 30 seconds is generally accepted as a decent rough estimate of a full-lap lap time. Bikes aren't fast around tracks compared to cars. Red Bull's staggered start promo videos comparing bikes and cars confirm this, with the bike being the first to start because it is slowest and all the cars in the test will catch it.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Cederic ( 9623 )

          Bikes aren't fast around tracks compared to cars.

          That's track dependent. Some tracks have sequences of curves that a car must slow for but a bike can treat as a straight.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by hawk ( 1151 )

        > There are multiple deaths and many more serious injuries

        More serious than death?

        Were they expelled?

        *shudder*

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by NFN_NLN ( 633283 )

      > I've ridden a motorcycle that could probably smoke both of these vehicles w/o breaking a sweat.

      What is the side impact rating of a motorcycle?

      • Fuck all, so don't do that. You don't typically recomend flying planes into water while onboard, do you?

        Not what the vehicle's made for.

      • What is the side impact rating of a motorcycle?

        You misspelled "leg". :-)

    • Motorcycle record for "bridge to gantry" is 7:10, which is not the same as a full lap. A rough estimate of what a full lap time might be based on a BtG time is to add 30 seconds. So, yes, this means that a rough estimate of the fastest motorcycle lap time of the Nurburgring is in the neighbourhood of 7:40. Sorry, motorcycle fans, while motorcyles are fast at accelerating, factor in cornering and braking and the overall picture changes quite a bit. Cars are faster.

    • There is no way this car did a 7:23.

  • PR (Score:5, Insightful)

    by lazarus ( 2879 ) on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @05:35PM (#59205870) Journal

    Porsche gets plenty of PR by doing vehicle testing at the 'ring. In fact most automobile manufacturers have invested in facilities nearby so they can test there as well.

    What Tesla is doing (effectively) is testing the powertrain that they are putting into their upcoming Roadster by refitting a Model S with that technology and testing it. Not that unusual, except that they usually don't ship their stuff all the way to Germany to do it, so it is a bit of a shot at Porsche for sure.

    Over the next few days you are going to hear (if you care) every armchair automotive commentator talk about how whatever time they lay down doesn't count because the car is not the spec that they sell, whereas the Taycan lap was (mostly -- Porsche won't confirm this so far).

    At the end of the day what matters for Tesla is they get to test their new gear in the same fashion that their rivals do, and they will get the free PR needed to bury the reputation they got 5 years ago that their cars can't be raced or they go into limp mode and give up.

    Nice move on Teslas part and the whole thing harkens back to the very first automotive race [eyewitnesstohistory.com] between American and German companies. This is the good kind of competition.

    • Re:PR (Score:5, Informative)

      by jon3k ( 691256 ) on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @05:50PM (#59205934)

      What Tesla is doing (effectively) is testing the powertrain that they are putting into their upcoming Roadster by refitting a Model S with that technology and testing it.

      Will be available in Roadaster, S and X. Directly from the horse's mouth [twitter.com].

    • The problem is the only thing about this car that is a Tesla S is the shell and possibly badge. If you are running different engines, different wheels and different brakes (and I am certain a lot more modifications to cater for all that) then you aren't showing what a Tesla S can do (or any model Tesla for that matter), so yeah those armchair automotive commentators will be completely justified in saying it is a meaningless number or comparison.

  • Up until now Tesla hasn't made it to the end of the track without going into limp mode/thermal protection. So this is great progress.

    I'm sure Porsche will come back with their own modified car to try to take the record back, and I look forward to the competition; and hope the other manufacturers are in play soon too.

    Although this is still a case of a customized car you can't buy beating essentially a production car. I'm sure that's temporary as the improvements will filter down into cars you can buy soon en

    • Nah, not that big of a deal... The 918 trounced it, and if you want to go REALLY fast, get a street-legal 911 GT2 RS MR - that'll lap in 6:40 - a full 43 seconds faster than the Tesla. Heck, a bone-stock Corvette Z06 will do it in 7:13, and that's an $80K car.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by 3770 ( 560838 )

        But interestingly the very fastest lap was with an electric vehicle: https://nurburgringlaptimes.co... [nurburgringlaptimes.com]

        Gas or diesel powered cars are in the tuning stage, not rapid development. Modern electric vehicles are in their infancy and they are still in the rapid development stage. There will come a point where it just becomes pointless to create gasoline powered super cars.

        • Uhh - no. Didn't you read my post? The 911 GT2 RS MR - street legal - did it in 6:40. The Nio was 6:45. There are a few cars [autoexpress.co.uk] that out-did the Nio - including the aforementioned Porsche and the Lamborghini Aventador SVJ - both of which are completely street legal as raced on the 'ring.

  • > a new three-motor powertrain (one motor for each rear wheel)

    Three rear wheels?

    • I'm with ya. I have no real idea what they were trying to say here. The best I could come up with is that they meant TWO motors, one for each rear wheel. Tesla already has a two motor version, but it's all wheel drive, with one motor for the front and the other for the rear. Or maybe the car does have three motors, one for each rear wheel and one for both fronts.

    • Yes, I went looking for the extra rear wheel too.

      TFS (The Fine Summary) has copied the slackadaisical misquoting of TFA. TFS (The Fine Source [roadandtrack.com]) actually reads;

      > And we're nearly certain these prototypes are sporting a brand-new, three-motor ultra-high-performance drivetrain—one motor for each rear wheel, and one powering the front axle.

  • If it had to be heavily modified then who cares? If you're comparing a factory vehicle that has to be made somewhat comfortable for a car market to a car that has no interior you're comparing apples to oranges. The Porsche could probably drive home while the Tesla was dead and had to be trailored.

    • Tesla has said that this car will be available - it's a special S model with 3 motors. It isn't a one-off, rather a prototype of a "coming soon" car. It isn't like the Bugatti that recently set a top speed "record" (which had a special elongated body among other modifications).

      As for stripping the interior - obviously the real car will house the normal creature comforts (I doubt they'll make a track-car "S" model). Porsche has several track versions of the 911 and Boxter that come without radios, A/C, r

  • I wonder if they used a full-sized battery pack for this? You could drop a stupendous amount of weight from an EV by carrying only enough cells to complete the lap - the Model S battery pack weighs 1,200 lbs! On the other hand this would seem to require a lot of re-engineering by Tesla. Using a chopped-down battery would be a more unrealistic modification than e.g. better brakes or an extra motor, because absent a huge battery breakthrough, any production EV will require a big battery to attain a usabl

    • The problem with that idea is that the larger battery is integral to providing the high peak power to drive the three motors at full capacity out of the turns as well as to reabsorb as much of that power as possible when braking into the next turn so that they don't need to take a break for a full recharge after every lap.

      A smaller battery might be able to provide the same burst a few times, but spreading the power demands out over fewer cells would cause it to overheat much faster.

      Everything is a delicate

  • On the Nurburgring, the driver is most important (Score:5, Interesting)

    by PolygamousRanchKid ( 1290638 ) on Tuesday September 17, 2019 @06:04PM (#59205986)

    I did two laps on the Nurburgring . . . not as a driver but as a passenger. On the weekends, the track is open amateurs who pay to take their own cars around for a lap. There are also a couple of services that offer "Racing Taxi" . . . a professional racer drives you around the track, and you try not to freak out or hurl. My tennis partner got his PhD in chemistry, and was gifted two laps. None of his friends had the courage to go along . . . the Nurburgring has a history of serious accidents . . . but me, I said, "I'll go with you!".

    For the American folks, the Nurburgring is not just a simple oval, but is on a hilly landscape, with a lot of ups and downs, and sharp turns. So, the more intimate knowledge you have of the track . . . that is more important than the horsepower you have in your car.

    So we were driven in a simple white BMW M5, with no markings on it, with a female driver. She knew every inch of the track. Her parents had a sausage stand on the track, so she literally grew up there.

    When we were driving, there were lots of Porsches with much more horsepower, but she managed to pass them all. She knew exactly when to downshift and when to brake. When passed them, the rich, middle-aged amateur drivers showed a sense of shock and frustration, that they were being passed by a woman with two dork passengers in a "simple" white BMW.

    So, the moral of the story is . . . you want to get the best speed record on Nurburgring?

    Hire the best driver who knows the track!

  • What would be impressive would be a comparison of the cars off dealer lots (or the equivalent for Tesla). Souped up cars only show off the modifications. In a way, this result is somewhat unimpressive because for some reason Tesla didn't trust the unmodified version to beat the Porsche.

  • Give me a twin turbo electric industrial engine pair, and a race course to sail it on, and you'll see acceleration you never believed possible.

  • No onboard footage and all we have is an unofficial laptime via a 'stopwatch'. Once Musk had a bee in his bonnet about the Taycan it was obvious we'd get some concocted nonsense like this. Par for the course with Tesla.

  • I actually want a Porsche

  • They should open hardware for Formula E, instead of now pre-approved identical chassis - this would really stimulate battery and engine technology in this area.

  • really, who cares about this?
    is this really the nr 1 question on peoples mind when buying an electric car?
    we already know they are stupidly fast to the point that 99% of the people can't really handle that much power anyway.

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