Dyson Cancels Electric Car Project (ft.com) 126
Dyson has abandoned its attempts to break into the automotive industry and will wind down its electric vehicle project, ending a venture that founder James Dyson claimed would redefine his business [Editor's note: the link may be paywalled; alternative source]. From a report: The company failed to find a buyer for its designs, and said its plans to build a car from scratch in Singapore were no longer commercially viable. Dyson's ambitions faced a mounting challenge from established carmakers, while electric vehicle makers such as Tesla have raised large sums on the stock and bond markets. Many new entrants such as China's Nio have struggled with the cost of competing against deep-pocketed incumbents. Sir James's decision represents a humbling U-turn for a man who is one of Britain's most celebrated living inventors. The billionaire businessman had hoped to harness his privately owned group's expertise in battery systems, aerodynamics and high-tech manufacturing to break into a fiercely competitive industry. "Though we have tried very hard throughout the development process, we simply can no longer see a way to make it commercially viable," Sir James wrote in an email to staff on Thursday. "We have been through a serious process to find a buyer for the project which has, unfortunately, been unsuccessful so far." The failed automotive gamble was part of a $3.1 bn investment push into a range of new technologies, including artificial intelligence and robotics and batteries.
not sure why they'd try to compete in that arena (Score:2)
instead of designing an in-car vacuum that slots into the car's dashboard somehow and is kept constantly charged up.
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Re:not sure why they'd try to compete in that aren (Score:5, Funny)
Such an in-car vacuum should be in or under the center console. Not between the driver's legs.
I think you are missing the appeal of such a solution.
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instead of designing an in-car vacuum that slots into the car's dashboard somehow and is kept constantly charged up.
Well, it sounds like he was trying to build the wrong type of electric vehicle. FTFS:
The billionaire businessman had hoped to harness his privately owned group's expertise in battery systems, aerodynamics and high-tech manufacturing to break into a fiercely competitive industry.
So he should have tried to build an electric Hovercraft. Unfortunately, the first prototype would have probably been full of eels.
Dyson should try making an Operating System (Score:2, Funny)
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If Microsoft can make an OS that sucks, probably Dyson could better.
With the termination of 32-bit support, OSX now officially sucks harder than Windows. Well, Windows 7 anyway.
"Celebrated" ? (Score:4, Informative)
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Agreed. I purchased a Dyson vacuum and unfortunately it is very distinctly in my "regret" category. Broke twice (they did at least send free replacement parts) and gets jammed up easily. I think it only works in commercials in condos with zero actual dirt.
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We have a DC17 and it's not only held up but it also works much better than any vac I've ever used, let alone owned.
The only complaint I've got is with the roller and belt, the roller gets hung up easily and the belts break easily. But you can get belts cheap, so eh.
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This. Nice ideas (ball roller on vacuum cleaner, enclosed base fan), but shoddy, noisy, plasticy execution.
Wait for the patents to expire and buy a premium quality product.
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This. Nice ideas (ball roller on vacuum cleaner, enclosed base fan)
Dyson never invented anything that I'm aware of. He is just a stylist. A ball instead of a wheel on a wheelbarrow ... what's the fucking difference in practice? ... serious wheelbarrow users (eg builders) ignored the hype. Putting a fan inside a toroidal plastic case with holes in it ... so what? See-through vacuum cleaner rubbish receptacles - why would I want to see the crap? Centrigugal dust separation ... nothing new.
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I really dislike Dyson but his vacuum cleaners are unfortunately the best.
They aren't without design flaws but the are unbeatable in two areas: cleaning power and emissions. Nothing cleans better, not an expensive Miele or anything else on the market. Dyson seems to have the best filtration too, the others all throw more of the dust out into the air again.
Issues I've had have not been quality related, they are all design problems. The dust bins are a bit of a pain to empty because the dust sticks to them an
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Picked up the cordless motorhead a few months ago and it's wayyy better than wrestling with corded bullshit. (I mean it's way better than watching my maid wrestle...)
And It works better too. bit pricey, but if it holds up it's worth it.
How is this shocking? (Score:3, Insightful)
Maker of overpriced home fashion appliances realizes it can not compete in the highly cost competitive world of automobiles.
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I think this reflects the true reality. Dysons products are mostly hype and molded plastic rocket fins. A traditional vacuum cleaner does a better job and costs less. I cannot see that the Dyson design philosophy could ever work in the cut throat automobile market. Unless there is a revival of 50's designs of course.
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A traditional vacuum cleaner does a better job and costs less.
I don't personally give a shit about Dyson (the person or the company) but our now-ancient DC17 is still the best carpet vacuum I've ever owned. It pulls stuff out of carpets that other vacuums don't. It looks stupid and it's hella heavy, but it works almost hilariously well.
Our ridgid shop vac has more utility in my current life, since it picks up liquids, chunks of insulating foam, and so on... But I seriously have never encountered a vac as good as our Dyson. And it has a washable HEPA filter, which is g
The sad part (Score:3)
is that everyone is bitching about the wrong thing here as usual.
This problem is more of an issue with the difficulty it is to get started in any "heavily regulated" market. Barrier is high... really high to the point where you often have to get a buyer or you will only just waste money trying to break in.
Businesses love regulation because it helps to keep new competition out.
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In what way is the electric car market "heavily regulated"? Based on the quote "We have been through a serious process to find a buyer for the project which has, unfortunately, been unsuccessful so far", it sounds like Dyson couldn't get funding and either can't or won't fund it themselves. It seems like they waited too long to get into the market and the market has gotten too competitive for the r
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In what way is the electric car market "heavily regulated"?
All the same ways as other cars, except for emissions. They have to meet all the same crash safety standards, which actually go so far as to constrain the geometry of the vehicle — e.g. requiring a certain rear deck height to avoid being driven over by SUVs, a certain height of belt line to avoid being killed if t-boned, roof pillar strength to protect from rollovers, hood crumple standards and mirror fold/breakaway to protect pedestrians...
It would actually be surprising if Dyson got all of that stuf
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I think when he says "heavily regulated" he means that the breaks and stuff have to work.
Sorry meant "Brakes"
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Here in the USA, cars are the second largest purchase a person will generally make, and it's a hugely competitive market to break into. I mean, it costs billions to build a car, and there's still dozens of companies in the world that do it, making hundreds of different models. It never ceases to amaze me how many small companies try to build something as complex as a car, thinking they stand a chance. That doesn't even include how hard it is to make cars in foreign markets, where regulation may not be an
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Dyson made washing machines for a while before pulling out because they didn't make enough money. I'm sure he just looked at the costs to build a car (factory and assembly line) compared to the expected profits on luxury vehicles and decided it wasn't worth it.
Even for Tesla it was only worth it because they were able to get to the mass market Model 3. Dyson probably never planned to make cars with mass market pricing. Everything he makes is premium and priced extremely high.
If the battery tech he promised
British automotive electrical systems (Score:5, Funny)
Perhaps investors were simply wary of a car where British automotive electrical design was applied to the entire vehicle. Posted because I know the Brits can take a joke.
From the inter webs:
Did you hear the one about the guy that peeked into a Land Rover and asked the owner "How can you tell one switch from another at night? They all look the same. " He replied, "It does not matter which one you use, nothing happens!"
The Lucas motto: "Get home before dark."
Lucas is the patent holder for the short circuit.
Lucas - Inventor of the first intermittent wiper.
Lucas - Inventor of the self-dimming headlamp.
The three position Lucas switch - Dim, Flicker and Off.
The Original Anti-Theft Device - Lucas Electrics.
Back in the 70's, Lucas decided to diversify its product line and began manufacturing vacuum cleaners. It was the only product they offered which did not suck.
Q: Why do the British drink warm beer? A: Because Lucas makes their refrigerators
Alexander Graham Bell invented the Telephone.Thomas Edison invented the Light Bulb. Joseph Lucas invented the Short Circuit.
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Sssh don't tell SoftBank those jokes, they paid a lot of money for ARM.
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Lucas: the Prince of Darkness
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Yes, there is even a t-shirt: https://www.roverparts.com/product/Img/Icn/2978.jpg
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Most of our crap cars were made by Rover and Austin, hardly anyone here remembers Lucas TBH. Rovers in particular were notorious. Supposed to be luxury vehicles but plagued with "Friday afternoon" quality problems and bad design.
Of course they no longer exist. MG are back though, but just as a brand for a Chinese company. Their new EV is not bad considering it's very low price point. I had a test drive in one.
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Lucas didn't make Autos (as far as I know). They did manufacture electrical components. Those electrical components went into Rovers, Jaguars, Austins, MGs, Triumphs, Nortons, etc. They were notoriously problematic. Lucas had some interesting ideas such as using light bulbs as resistors...which was all well and good until your tail light went out and your car wouldn't start. All that said, my last British vehicle was a 2010 Triumph Daytona that I used as my track bike. It was fantastic machine and nev
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Alternatively, Dyson gave up because they couldn't find a way to make it leak oil.
Sweep under the rug... (Score:2)
Tesla vacuum cleaner (Score:2)
Tesla should build a vacuum cleaner.
The Tesla vacuum cleaner will probably be better than a Dyson.
sad. Easy enough to do (Score:2)
EVs are coming, but, the time to have started an EV company was a decade ago, and they needed to do it in the west, not in nations that do not have decent automotive skills.
Dyson ruined his brand (Score:2)
The people who buy electric cars are hip urban professional types. The people who support Brexit are pensioners and skin-heads.
Dyson's public support for Brexit meant that most people in his target market wouldn't ride in a Dyson car, let alone buy one. And of course buggering off to Singapore because the Brexit he campaigned for would make assembly in the UK a disaster only made things worse.
It was a stupid idea anyway. Musk was there ten years ahead of him and was already churning out electric cars as a n
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That's a pity (Score:2)
Re:They don't work (Score:4, Insightful)
Supporting companies that only sell at luxury car price points will never lead to mass adoption.
Actually, plurality of inventions started at a luxury price point that eventually lead to mass adoption. The list includes and not limited to: flushing toilet, automobile, personal computer, electricity in your home, telephone...
Re:They don't work (Score:5, Insightful)
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This is true and a good point. But those items rather quickly moved into lower cost commodities based on competition. We're not seeing that in EV in fact it seems to be going the opposite direction.
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But those items rather quickly moved into lower cost commodities based on competition.
Yes, quickly. Only a few decades.
We're not seeing that in EV in fact it seems to be going the opposite direction.
2015 Tesla Model-S: $85,000
2019 Tesla Model-3: $35,000
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Credit where it's due, Nissan was building affordable EVs and a charger network long before Tesla.
And the $35,000 Model 3 was cancelled after a few months of making them very hard to actually buy. Tesla screwed up and the car is too expensive to meet their promised price point.
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Please, the "Nissan affordable EV" had a range of a horse.
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And yet plenty of people bought them and loved them. Until this year it was the best selling EV, way ahead of Tesla.
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Google says horses need a recharge after 15 miles, while the Nissan Leaf gets 150 to 226 miles to a charge.
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Nissan Leaf needs has an effective range of 40 miles, at least the initial models. Wells Fargo coach horses were changes every 35 or so miles.
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This is bullshit. The original Leaf had a 24kWh battery. I don't have one from the first year, but I do have a 2016 Leaf with a 24kWh battery. The real world range is about 90 miles. Not 40.
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hard to buy? WTF?
I can tell you are either a tesla hater and/or never tried driving one.
try one. they're amazing.
cost-wise: most decent cars are in the $40k range these days. this is not the age of the model-s, the model-3 is very affordable, especially when you consider the cost of electric being cheaper than gas; and more and more employers are providing cheap or even free charging at work.
(ob disc: I work at an electric car company, not tesla; and I was a hard on the tesla and others. I quickly chang
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typo:
and I was a hard *sell* on the tesla
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Tesla made it so that you couldn't order the $35k model online or over the phone. You had to go to the store and ask for it.
People who did manage to buy one found that they were actually getting the more expensive SR+ model with a software limited battery. Tesla were selling so few it wasn't even worth making the cheapest SR model, they preferred to just lose money by giving out a more expensive vehicle with the premium interior, sound system, larger battery etc. but software locked.
And then after a couple
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Do you even realize how many hundreds of years it took for the flush toilet to move from something only royalty had ever seen to being in every low-rent apartment in Appalachia?
The price movement in EV's is a cliff by comparison.
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those items rather quickly moved into lower cost commodities [...]
Well, depending on how you look at it, it took 22 years to go from the first car to the Model T.
So it depends on your definition of "rather quickly."
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I'm old enough to remember when an 8088 computer sold for $5,000 (adjusted).
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If you look at the lifetime costs of a Model 3, it's an affordable car, with real costs similar or less than popular models such as a Toyota Camry.
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If you look at the lifetime costs of a Model 3, it's an affordable car, with real costs similar or less than popular models such as a Toyota Camry.
That remains to be seen. Right now thats just a talking point on the Tesla website. The real cost has yet to materialize. Also, it means little if the cost of entry is high.
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If you look at the lifetime costs of a Model 3, it's an affordable car, with real costs similar or less than popular models such as a Toyota Camry.
That remains to be seen. Right now thats just a talking point on the Tesla website. The real cost has yet to materialize. Also, it means little if the cost of entry is high.
This analysis has been done by plenty of non-Tesla organizations. Lower fuel and maintenance costs win out over time.
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I have done these calculations myself. Lower operating and maintenance costs are only worth it for these vehicles if you ignore the opportunity costs of the higher up front price.
The $15,000 difference between a $40k Model 3 and a $25k Camry invested with a 5% annual return pays for the vast majority of the operating costs of the less expensive vehicle. When that opportunity cost is considered, depending on the assumptions, it either takes longer than the life of the vehicle to break even or it never does
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The $15,000 difference between a $40k Model 3 and a $25k Camry invested with a 5% annual return pays for the vast majority of the operating costs of the less expensive vehicle.
How many people have $15k in the bank and are choosing between putting it down on a car and investing it? The vast majority of car buyers are going to be financing, which should mean higher loan payments but lower operating costs for the Tesla.
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That doesn't make the Tesla any cheaper. You just end up trading increased interest costs in place of the investment opportunity cost. That comes out being slightly better for the Tesla due to inflation, but it would still take longer than the life of the vehicle to recoup the difference.
The only time it works out in favor of the Tesla is when you drive far far more than average (>40,000 miles/year), making the operating costs dominate the equation.
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as a bay area resident, where weather is great and EV's are VERY plentiful; its a trend that employers are giving free charging at work.
we have that where I work and, yes, it motivated me to buy an EV.
I now save over $200/mo on gas. I live in an apartment, so I have no home charging at all. I will depend on work-charging and occasional paid charging.
no oil changes. car complexity is much lower than ICE cars. car is dead silent at stops and nearly silent while running.
gas cars are clearly on their way ou
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I'm not fighting anything except poor understanding of basic economics.
If battery tech continues to improve, it won't be long until the up front cost difference shrinks to the point where electric cars are actually cheaper. We just aren't there yet. Though, we may be by the next time I am in the market for a vehicle. I will definitely revisit those calculations again then.
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The $15,000 difference between a $40k Model 3 and a $25k Camry invested with a 5% annual return pays for the vast majority of the operating costs of the less expensive vehicle.
If you are going to analyze at that level, you might also want to consider the depreciation costs as well. At the moment at least, a Model 3 holds its value so much better than a Camry that the 5-year TCO [cleantechnica.com] is less for the Model 3.
If you want to buy a car that you will keep forever, so you don't care about the depreciation costs, then
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So Mr Math Financial Wizard, how do you refine your own petroleum, just curious, got a little fractional distillation rig and oil well in your back yard because with a solar panel and a house battery, you can generate your own fuel TAX FREE to refuel your electric vehicle. Not only do you get free fuel but a major capital investment return on your home. Fossil fueller versus electric always fails in the end because you can generate you own fuel tax free for the electric.
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Are you retarded? How many years have Tesla Model 3s been on the road? How many miles driven?
What are the repair costs when the battery goes to shit and Tesla isn't supplying it anymore? What happens when the computer system shits out and Tesla doesn't support it?
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EVs have been on the road for decades. The battery technology is well characterized.
Ask the same questions about an ICE car.
What are the repair costs when the engine goes to shit and Ford isn't supplying it anymore? - A lot. $10-20k
What happens when the computer system shits out and Ford doesn't support it? - Find a replacement at a wrecking yard. Hundred of dollars maybe.
Actual costs are well documents for existing electric and ice cars. My l
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Key point, though, is that for $10K to $20K you can buy a two-year old car in good condition instead of a new engine for your Ford.
In 10-20 years, there ought to be enough EV's out there that buying a used EV is a practical solution when searching for a replacement vehicle. Alas, they aren't there yet.
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No indeed. I bought a used Leaf 2 years ago, and because of the demand for used Leafs, it's currently worth more than I paid for it. Talk about economic motoring!
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If that pickup were a car it would cost $50k+, which is why Americans buy so many pickups. More content for less money, due to the lesser emissions restrictions.
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No. The non-Tesla EV market sucks. Teslas hold their value very well (when you take into account the tax rebates that the original owner received)
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The operating costs for electric vehicles are lower, but those life-cycle cost comparisons are misleading. The lower operating cost may pay back the ~$15,000 difference in purchase price by the time the vehicle dies, but it will take much longer than that to recover the lost investment income from the $15k that you could have made.
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Sorry, no.
There is at least a $15K difference in starting price so a Tesla starts deep in the hole. Gas simply is not that expensive, and electricity is really not that cheap. You will never recoup the fuel savings costs. $15K buys 5000 gallons of gasoline, which will power your Camry for 200,000 miles. Oil changes simply are not that expensive if done at the manufactures intervals, nor is other routine maintenance. At 4miles per kwh, 200,000 miles is 50,000kwh of juice. At a home rate of 0.12/kwh, you are
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ICE engined cars are usually scrapped well before this mileage, or they start to incur big repair bills, so this is an invalid comparison. Meanwhile, there is every reason to believe that well-cared-for Tesla batteries will still be working well at beyond 300,000 miles:
https://www.engadget.com/2018/... [engadget.com]
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Supporting companies that only sell at luxury car price points will never lead to mass adoption.
If you wait for a product or technology to go from luxury to consumer level to produce it you'll never get there. By selling it at a luxury level you let the technology mature, get real world data, and make enough money to hopefully let you continue operating as you work to get production costs down. Plus you get the added benefit that, if you start off as a luxury good and you become more affordable and reduce costs you can still build in a premium for that luxury reputation, thereby increasing profits.
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Mine works fine. And I paid cash, no loan. What's your excuse?
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I'm not financially concerned about replacing the battery. I could buy another whole car if I wanted. I'm just enjoying driving past the gas station and the garages. What did you spend your money on?
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A new Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf can be had for $30K. An new entry level Tesla is under $40K. Average new car price is around $36K. These numbers are mid-range, not luxury.
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Two words: (Score:2)
Video cards.
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There is nothing remarkable about this and there is obviously a long term interest that they do it.
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Re: I guess you can say... (Score:2)
Jealous much?
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Jealousy is when you fear someone else will take what you have.
Envy is when you want what someone else has.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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There's the slim chance that Frosty Piss is actually Elon Musk...
From skimming a few more articles... (Score:5, Informative)
Thats a good question you ask. Article mere states they did R&D at their research facility in UK, but it doesn't state how the events unfolded.
The article merely states they couldn't get a investor to pay for Singapore facility, which I guess means they can't supply chain the rest of the parts in UK. Going from a earlier 2019 article( https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-... [autocar.co.uk] ), the idea was to get a investor to pay for the facility, before moving bulk production of all Dyson parts to Singapore, and then maybe make a car from the additional logistics from being sited in Singapore.
If I where to guess the failure?
No investor, since they are not willing to spend their own cash.
Motors aren't significantly better than Bosch or whatever, so its mediocre.
Solid state battery research didn't pan out significantly
Might have gotten cold feet over China and Singapore, for a lot of reasons. Might even include the problem of IP theft, or unsecure supply chain.
Or I am guessing they couldn't secure enough knowledge and logistics to actually build a car without resorting to a lot of OEM parts. There is already a lot of companies doing that, and for EV it wouldn't really be better despite being a high end brand name.
Anything else to know about Dyson?
They got main office in Wiltshire, UK. A R&D campus at Hullavington, and do not have significant inhouse production.
4/7 of their workforce is located in Malaysian, working for VS Industry Bhd. It seem the original desire was to go to Singapore to acquire inhouse production, to skip a middle man. EV car project seemed to be a silly front to get a investor to pay for that.
tl:dr
0 cars built.
It was a investor bait to pay for a HQ move, to finance inhouse production
Re:From skimming a few more articles... (Score:4, Insightful)
Dyson has moved his personal investments over to Singapore before the worst of Brexit has happened. I don't know if he plans to take advantage when the Pound crashes. He even moved the headquarters of the company to Singapore. I lost a lot of respect for him because of this as he's always been this pro-UK person but he's been one of the most prominent business backers of Brexit. If Brexit is so good for the UK then why move the corporate HQ over there?
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He should have set his sights a little more realistically, e.g. producing AC / pollen filter systems for EVs, or electric motors, or something that could benefit from a little innovation. Designing whole car and everything entailed by that? Not so much.