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The Courts Businesses Government The Almighty Buck United States

Uber Hit With $650 Million Employment Tax Bill In New Jersey (bloomberglaw.com) 152

Posted by BeauHD from the hefty-sums-of-money dept.
New Jersey's labor department says Uber owes the state about $650 million in unemployment and disability insurance taxes because the rideshare company has been misclassifying drivers as independent contractors. Bloomberg Law News reports: Uber and subsidiary Rasier LLC were assessed $523 million in past-due taxes over the last four years, the state Department of Labor and Workforce Development said in a pair of letters to the companies. The rideshare businesses also are on the hook for as much as $119 million in interest and penalties on the unpaid amounts, according to other internal department documents. The New Jersey labor department has been after Uber for unpaid employment taxes for at least four years, according to the documents, which Bloomberg Law obtained through an open public records request.

The state's determination is limited to unemployment and disability insurance, but it could also mean that Uber is required to pay drivers minimum wages and overtime under state law. Uber's costs per driver, and those of Lyft, could jump by more than 20% if they are forced to reclassify workers as employees, according to Bloomberg Intelligence. [...] New Jersey informed Uber in 2015 that it had obtained a court judgment ordering the company to pay about $54 million in overdue unemployment and temporary disability insurance contributions. It is not clear whether the company ever paid any of that bill. "We are challenging this preliminary but incorrect determination, because drivers are independent contractors in New Jersey and elsewhere," Uber spokeswoman Alix Anfang told Bloomberg Law.
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Uber Hit With $650 Million Employment Tax Bill In New Jersey More

Uber Hit With $650 Million Employment Tax Bill In New Jersey

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  • Good (Score:5, Informative)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @07:53PM (#59415570)
    we all benefit from Unemployment insurance even if we never use it. UI means people don't have to take the first job that comes along our of desperation, which raises wages for us all. Uber broke that. They and other "gig" economy companies (along with phony contractor outfits that run perma-temp jobs where employees doing routine production work are "contractors") have driven wages down substantially.

    • Re:Good (Score:5, Informative)

      by ravenscar ( 1662985 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:19PM (#59415630)

      Sure, but the state needs to figure out how to provide unemployment insurance to people who work in this way. How does an Uber driver claim unemployment in NJ? I don't believe they ever get laid off. So, how does it work? If someone signs on to drive on a slow night can they claim they were unemployed for that night? Can they file a claim and get compensation? I know that's a wacky example, but it's just an illustration. If the state wants to collect taxes for an insurance they provide they should definitely have a plan for providing that insurance. Perhaps some way to indicate a substantial drop in income over a given period. Something to the effect of the driver typically makes X for 40 hours worked. Due to a significant drop in demand, they now make Y (where Y is much lower than X). Maybe a claim could be filed for that difference (assuming there is a standard period of time used).

      Disability insurance should be pretty cut and dry, but unemployment is going to take some effort.

      • I think they just did (Score:5, Insightful)

        by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:22PM (#59415638)
        by enforcing the law. The law says employers pay for Unemployment Insurance. Employers don't get out of that by pretending not to be employers.
        • So if I drive for both Uber and Lyft (most drivers in my area do), should both pay the full UI? Should I collect UI from Uber if I'm only picking up Lyft passengers for a few weeks by my choice? It's cute that you ignored the other poster' s entire point. But you didn't score any points with anyway. You replied to serious questions with intellectual dishonesty. This is a very complex topic and people like you with pat simplistic answers to difficult questions will not be part of the solution.

          • Re: I think they just did (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Xenx ( 2211586 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @10:19PM (#59415854)
            The rules would be the same for any other employee that worked more than one job. If you work for Uber and Lyft, both would be paying into the state's UI pool based on wages earned under the respective company. When you go to claim UI, you're getting it from the state and not from Uber or Lyft directly.

            Their question about how it works to claim unemployment, it's probably straight forward like any other employer. If they're still a driver under Uber, they're employed by Uber. If they're not a driver, they're unemployed. There are specific rules for why you quit or were terminated that determine whether you qualify for UI. Those rules would apply just the same in the case of Uber as they would elsewhere.

          • It's only a complex topic because you are stupid enough to earn less than 1/3rd what you would at a normal taxi company, so that the people at Uber and Lyft can take a large percentage for themselves.

        • Now how does that apply to the self-employed? You literally CANNOT pay UI, since you're not allowed to collect it... Own your own small company? You're exempt from UI and cannot collect. Now extend that to contractors in general...

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by dkone ( 457398 )

          Here is you answer applied to the questions posed by the comment you replied to:

          How does an Uber driver claim unemployment in NJ? - by enforcing the law.
          I don't believe they ever get laid off. So, how does it work? - by enforcing the law.
          If someone signs on to drive on a slow night can they claim they were unemployed for that night? - by enforcing the law.
          Can they file a claim and get compensation? - by enforcing the law.

          While I agree with you that Uber drivers are employees and Uber should pay UI, I am jus

        • So ypu didn't read his question or didn't understand it?
        • Uber didn't invent this "not an employee" scam. I worked for a company that tried to hire me and a dozen others are "contract" programmers, but they wanted us working in their offices, regular hours, with a direct report boss and on their equipment and conforming to the company dress code. That was in the 1980s and the IRS got after the employer and they had to convert us all to W2 employees.

          I wonder if there's any space between what people are willing to pay for a ride and what people are willing to a

        • I hope I made it clear that I don't disagree with you. If the state has found Uber drivers to be employees then it needs to collect unemployment insurance - enforce the law as you say. My point is that the law regarding how unemployment claims are handled is inadequate. It doesn't, to my knowledge, support a way that an Uber driver can make a claim for unemployment. The legislature needs to get to work addressing the questions I posed so that Uber drivers are protected by the insurance.

      • Typically it's based on hours worked. If someone goes from driving around all week to a day that's effectively unemployed.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Solandri ( 704621 )
        Seems like people don't know how unemployment works on the employer-state side. The money doesn't come from the state. All companies pay a percentage of each employees salary into the unemployment fund. Your company builds its "own" unemployment fund in this way. If someone you let go files for unemployment, the amount they collect is deducted against your fund. If your fund gets too low, you're kicked into a higher rate bracket, and the percentage of each employee's salary you need to pay into the fun

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Uber drivers are employees. They might have flexible working hours but Uber controls the work they do, sets the rules and monitors their behaviour closely. So treat them like employees, require Uber to pay them at least minimum wage and provide benefits like holiday time and sick days.

    • If you think what Uber can do now is : They - Cancel uber in newjersey.... uber drivers will have to go to other states - Not hire part time work for drivers that have an existing job. Only those that can work full time will be hired. - Uber fees will be more expensive in new jersey, passengers pay more. Yeah, chase Uber for taxes! Why not also unionise all those drivers too...? Lets see how well that goes.

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by mi ( 197448 )

      UI means people don't have to take the first job that comes along our of desperation

      Not even if they deliberately and willingly chose the arrangement? Not much about personal choice, are you? Because you just know better, than the silly unwashed masses, right?

      They and other "gig" economy companies [...] have driven wages down substantially

      Now replace "wages" with "prices" and it sounds completely different, does not it? While still being true...

    • They and other "gig" economy companies (along with phony contractor outfits that run perma-temp jobs where employees doing routine production work are "contractors") have driven wages down substantially.

      Have a citation for that? Everything I've looked at suggests you're wrong.

      National Average Wage Index: https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html [ssa.gov]
      Third party sourcing U.S. Bureau of Labor statistics: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wages [tradingeconomics.com]
      Wikipedia has a lot of data aggregated as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States [wikipedia.org]

      It's beyond sad this this broken window nonsense gets voted up when even a casual web search shows that it has no basis in fact. You can make a

      • than boomers and have more education. Google it.

        Or just turn your brain on. The Gig economy means no benefits. It means no minimum wage protections, and that means no wage floor (again. google it if you don't know or understand the concept). It's piece work, like in the old factory towns. Again, more google, more history reading.

        Hourly & minimum wages didn't just come out of the the ether or whole cloth. They were fought for. That you know so little about the history of labor is exactly how we g
        • you're demand for citations is a strawman argument. You have google, and you already know what I said is true. No amount of evidence would convince you because you're not looking to be convinced. You're either trolling, repeating right wing talking points that you enjoy spouting because they make you feel superior (which I admit I indulged in when I was 12), or being paid to spread mischief (there's a virtually unlimited amount of right wing cash out there thanks to billionaire funded think tanks and /. is

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by 110010001000 ( 697113 )

            Um, Boomers are 55-75 years old. Millenials are 28-38 years old. Why are you upset that Boomers on average earn more? That's the way life works.

            • Re: (Score:1)

              by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

              Um, Boomers are 55-75 years old. Millenials are 28-38 years old. Why are you upset that Boomers on average earn more? That's the way life works.

              They aren't comparing current wages. They are comparing millenials now versus boomers when they were the same age, adjusted for inflation. Right now at, say, age 30, a millenial is better educated but has less purchasing power than a boomer when that boomer was 30. And since earnings and savings are cumulative, I'd be willing to bet the trend continues as millenials get older and the gap is never closed.

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by alvinrod ( 889928 )

            you're demand for citations is a strawman argument.

            After reading this I had to double check that it wasn't some kind of parody/troll account that posted this comment. I'm honestly not even sure how to respond to this. I can't possibly come up with some kind of pithy comment (possibly excluding this one itself) that might make you look worse than what you yourself have said. I guess I could make it my signature or something.

            You have google, and you already know what I said is true.

            No, I know what you said is false. Because I bothered to actually check and I can't find anything that actually substantiates your claim

        • And yet, the actual facts say that wages are increasing.

      • Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)

        by rtb61 ( 674572 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @10:20PM (#59415856) Homepage

        Too late for chit chat on the interwebs, accept reality, Uber are in deep shite, really, really, deep. Lose this one and it looks a certainly, mainly because of the ambiguity of the gig economy. That employment status is well and truly ambiguous because the workers are required to turn up at a time and place designated by their employer, not a contract position, a job to be complete at a time of choosing of the contractor but a repeatedly designated by the employer start time and location.

        The gig economy is being targeted because it will cripple human society. What work would 1 million uber drivers get, when there are 1 million people looking for a drive once per day, it is extraordinarily bad for stable employment and creating a stable society and the intent is to clearly cheat on minimum wage, insurace liabilities and payroll taxes (hah hah, were smart and fuck the rest of the country).

        It was inevitable and what one state in one country gains, every state in every country will pursue. Better get in double quick time fast because Uber is about to be bled to death and no escape, first in wins.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Ryzilynt ( 3492885 )

      I was an Uber driver. Yes it is not ideal for drivers. Yes they consistently reduce driver compensation in an effort to get closer to not bleeding millions of dollars out their assholes every year. Yes there are a lot of hidden cost many drivers will not consider. Yes, they don't care because they just need a warm body and a functioning vehicle to satiate their desires.

      But drivers are definitely self employed. They are definitely 1099. They are definitely contractors.

      They never told me if I had to drive,

      • Re:Good (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Nidi62 ( 1525137 ) on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:42AM (#59416540)

        But drivers are definitely self employed. They are definitely 1099. They are definitely contractors.

        They never told me if I had to drive, when i had to drive or where i had to drive. They never required that I take a fare , they never required that i refuse a fare. They did not require me to be kind, nor did they forbid it. ALL of it was always MY choice.

        That said I ended my career with uber after 1600+ rides and a 4.8 star rating. And they reduced their per mile rate yet again.

        Since you're a contractor couldn't you just simply negotiate your next contract to have higher wages? No? Huh, sounds more like an employee to me.

        • You are spouting nonsense. As a candidate for direct employment I negotiated and got a better deal than was originally offered. As a direct employee I negotiate periodically for the work I want to do and the compensation. I can do this because my skills are in demand and there are not enough people to fill that demand. Being direct vs. contractor only changes the parameters being negotiated, not whether negotiation can take place. That aside, no matter how in demand you are, there is a point where you are g

          • You are spouting nonsense. As a candidate for direct employment I negotiated and got a better deal than was originally offered. As a direct employee I negotiate periodically for the work I want to do and the compensation. I can do this because my skills are in demand and there are not enough people to fill that demand. Being direct vs. contractor only changes the parameters being negotiated, not whether negotiation can take place. That aside, no matter how in demand you are, there is a point where you are getting the most you are going to get for doing a job. That may not be enough for some people.Someone could be the best in the world at taking out the garbage, that doesn't mean they have unlimited negotiating power.

            Completely agree , why this guy got modded 5 for being ignorant is anyone's guess. I could ask Uber for more / mile any time i wish, and they can agree or tell me to fuck off any time they wish.

            Has absolutely nothing to do with 1099 status.

    • UI means people don't have to take the first job that comes along our of desperation,

      This may depend on the state, but generally speaking:

      1. Your UI benefits are limited to at most 50% of your previous salary, with an absolute dollar cap, and
      2. If you refuse to take the first job which makes an offer, you can lose your benefits completely.

      The only real advantage offered by UI that I can see is that you'll burn through your savings at a slower rate than otherwise, but the benefit is generally insufficien

  • The unemployment insurance tax rate for NJ is roughly 0.4% of the paycheck with some limit (I think around $220).

    So Uber paid something like $162B in what the state wants to classify as taxable wages in New Jersey? What did I get wrong?

    • 1.1% maybe? Nope, something is wrong (Score:5, Informative)

      by raymorris ( 2726007 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:34PM (#59415672) Journal

      This site says 0.6% for unemployment taxes now because the state is trying to pay back federal loans. Plus disability etc.
      https://www.njbia.org/get-njbi... [njbia.org]

      The total might be about 1.1%, I'm not sure. (I've only paid employer taxes in Texas).

      Anyway, yeah it looks like Uber has paid a LOT of money to people in New Jersey, if about 1% of the amount they've paid is half a billion dollars. Maybe around $50 billion over five years.

      Hmm, Uber's gross revenue nationwide is $3 billion. According to the article, the state is claiming they paid New Jersey driver's three times as much as their total nationwide revenue.

      My guess is that the taxes are about 10% of that amount, with the rest being penalities and interest. Not paying your taxes is very expensive. What sucks for Uber is that New Jersey just changed the definition of a contractor vs employee. Uber seems to be operating under the law that was in place when they started the business, the law that had been law for 50 years or so. The new law makes it a lot tougher to have contractors.

      • Anyway, yeah it looks like Uber has paid a LOT of money to people in New Jersey, if about 1% of the amount they've paid is half a billion dollars. Maybe around $50 billion over five years.

        Wrong way to look at it, honestly. Uber is based in CA, taxis would exist in NJ regardless of the existence of Uber. Their acting in the market is taking money from NJ, not paying it out. That money would be flowing in the NJ economy with or without Uber siphoning it off for their own benefit.

        • Actually there are a lot more people taking Uber than took taxis, and a lot more Uber drivers than taxi drivers. So no, that money wouldn't be flowing. You'd ask your brother to pick you up from the airport, taking some time off work to do so.

          Anyway, Uber's taxes aren't calculated based on how much people would use taxis if Uber didn't exist, so you've picked a completely irrelevant discussion to inject your political thought - one that's also wrong because there are in fact far more Uber passengers than t

          • You don't have any figures supporting that whatsoever. Taxi drivers were notorious for taking cash payments and not reporting them, and they made more. They still spent that money locally.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Anonymous Coward
            Uber: We can give you a ride cheaper and faster than a taxi
            NJ (seller of taxi medallions): That's a nice business you got there; be a shame if something happened to it.

        • One of the things I learned when I first started studying Uber and the whole employee thing is that most taxi drivers are treated as independent contractors as well.

          As such, given that they have a more entrenched lobbying organization, Uber is probably taking a lot less than you might think.

        • Isn't Uber losing money though? I recall a large number of stories on Slashdot covering how inept they are and how much a failure the business has been. A quick Google search turned up this article from the Verge [theverge.com] claiming a $5 billion loss in a single quarter.

          So if the drivers are getting fucked and Uber is losing money, who's actually winning in all of this? The only remaining party involved in all of this is the customer. That would go a long way to explain why Uber is so popular. Apparently if you rea

          • You're forgetting about the self driving car division at Uber.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by nagora ( 177841 )

            So if the drivers are getting fucked and Uber is losing money, who's actually winning in all of this?

            The people at the top of the company who are making a tidy sum for themselves, which after all is why you start a company and not, say, a charity.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Swistak ( 899225 )
            Yes. The consumer is who's winning right now, or at least used to until recently. Funny enough yes, I did detest Uber, and I took rides with them but only they were running promos/I could get a promo code, so it hurts the most :D

            Uber was so cheap because it didn't make any profit on rides for a while. This changed recently, with them squezing the drivers. So now they make profit per-ride, but only because Drivers don't make any money any-more after cost of gas and amortization. I'm honestly not sure where

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

              Uber was so cheap because it didn't make any profit on rides for a while. This changed recently, with them squezing the drivers. So now they make profit per-ride, but only because Drivers don't make any money any-more after cost of gas and amortization. I'm honestly not sure where they put all the money into right now that they are still making loses, even when they have thousands of people working for free for them

              Probably ponzi scheme-like payments and bonuses to new drivers to get people to sign up, then after they drive for a little while slowly start whittling back down the rate. That, and as someone above said, their self-driving division which is massively behind the curve from what I can tell. Uber's only path to profitability is to have the cheapest drivers possible, which would be no drivers. As long as they have people driving for them they will lose money, as they have to keep wages from getting too low

  • They are contractors (Score:4, Insightful)

    by FeelGood314 ( 2516288 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:27PM (#59415644)
    Uber drivers set their own hours and use their own equipment. They can start working at any day and stop working any day. There is nothing sticky about them. They never gave up another job or sunk an investment in the gig. If anything gig jobs should be raising wages for regular workers since if I'm in a shit job I know that I can always fall back on Uber. So Uber is the new minimum wage. Also if a driver knows what they are doing, understands the peak priciing etc. they can make a very good living. I rode with one driver who was an engineer from Syria. He droves an Volt and had everything priced out. He set his schedule around when his kids where in school and doing homework. If you can't do the math and invest the time in knowing the system then maybe self employed contractor isn't for you but for those that do it is a pretty good gig.
    • From the Fine Article:

      That includes New Jersey, which uses a version of the “ABC” test to determine whether workers are employees or contractors. In order to classify workers as contractors, state law requires a company to show that it doesn’t control the work and that the service provided is outside of its “usual course” of business, or outside of the places of business where the services are otherwise performed.

      Seems to me that Uber's usual course of business is matching th

      • Just the one point then: the ferrying of riders willing to pay for the privilege of not driving themselves has morphed into an incredible cottage industry for folks willing to subcontract that work for them.... an that's a bad thing, even though it creates a largish market for go-getters to exploit,

        perhaps, yet it's so not unAmerican.

    • Re:They are contractors (Score:5, Insightful)

      by fermion ( 181285 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @11:37PM (#59415976) Homepage Journal
      They do invest in their gig, i.e. their automobile. It may be something they already have, but it is an investment. But many drivers explicitly lease from Uber, so they do make an investment that they need to make a return on.

      They do not set their own equipment and hours. As I said before, they have equipment standards, so If I have a 20 year old rolls royce, I can't us it. Likewise, even though Uber does not officially terminate drivers for low acceptance rates, they terms say they can. So you really don't have carte blanche on choice.

      The innovation in most tech business over the past 30 years has been in terms of the denial that a person working for you is an employee. MS, as well as Apple and Google to a lesser degree, was well known for saying employees were contract workers. I was a contract worker, so I know what one is, and in most cases these schmucks are not contract workers.

      Likewise we have minimum wages laws, and companies want to ignore them but we still live a country that is more or less based on the rule of law, so we can't just run around and do as we wish. Otherwise we have house servants who are just paid with bread and water and lives in a cot in garage, and not allowed to leave the premise.

      The problem with Uber is bloat, and in order to make this work, where it is complaint with laws, they are going to have to solve their inefficiencies in management and infrastructure. There is room for improvement over the cab model, but that is not at the driver level where most cab drivers are already squeezed. An independent contract is not as simple as setting your own hours or not investing money, as many if not most jobs have one if not both of those attributes. The laws say what a contractor is, and firms just can't change the law.

      And lets be real here. The greatest danger to Uber is not that they have to pay minimum wage or employment taxes. It is that they will become liable for bad things their drivers do,.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Uber drivers can't subcontract the work out to other drivers. Their wage structure and work hours don't change this fact. They are not contractors.

  • How are they not contractors? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by jonwil ( 467024 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @08:34PM (#59415668)

    They are free to work as many or as few hours as they choose.
    They are free to work for multiple ride-share companies and aren't locked into a single company (and get to choose which company to run trips for and when)
    They are free to stop driving for any or all companies any time they like.
    And (with Uber at least) they are free to decline rides if they don't want to take them.

    What exactly makes ride-share drivers employees rather than contractors?

    • The difference is NJ wants tax revenue because they are a very poorly run state so it might as well be Uber to fill the budget gap. I hate Uber. They are evil af. But NJ government is no better. There are no heroes in this story. Just a government evil bullying around a corporate evil, because they can.

      • The difference is NJ wants tax revenue because they are a very poorly run state so it might as well be Uber to fill the budget gap.

        Is that what caused Uber to be declared employers of drivers in the UK and in California, with court cases pending elsewhere all over the globe? NJ wanting tax revenue? I honestly had no idea they have that much clout /s

    • Re:How are they not contractors? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Confused ( 34234 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @10:08PM (#59415836) Homepage

      What exactly makes ride-share drivers employees rather than contractors?

      Another very important aspect of being an independent contractor is that you can set your own prices and do your own evaluation what's economically reasonable.

      Strong financial dependency on Uber and a very lopsided power-balance in the relationship in favour of Uber makes it also look more like a employment than being independent.

      In the article they also mention, that many drivers see themselves as employees, which is another indication Uber might be disingenuous when classifying their drivers as independent contractors.

      Back to reality, it looks as if Uber built their business on trying to be clever at bending rules to pretzels. Turns out they weren't as clever as they thought they are. Across Western Europe they got banned until they get a proper taxi license, in parts of Asia (eg Vietnam) they got kicked because they didn't believe in playing by the local rules, many cities and states in the US don't appreciate them bending the rules. They get what they deserve.

      • Re:How are they not contractors? (Score:4)

        by virtig01 ( 414328 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @11:05PM (#59415934)

        Another very important aspect of being an independent contractor is that you can set your own prices and do your own evaluation what's economically reasonable.

        By electing not to drive at a given time, a driver is implicitly denying an offered rate. Some drivers only drive on Friday nights, when surge pricing is in effect. Remember, a price is not "set" by a contractor (in any industry); the price is where both the buyer and the seller agree to transact.

        Strong financial dependency on Uber...

        Do they though? Drivers are allowed to work for Uber's competitors, which is one benefit of being a contractor. Having multiple clients is a good way to reduce dependence on one company.

        • It won't work.

          It's clear that gig economy workers are not precisely the same as contractors nor are they precisely the same as employees. For every quibbling argument about one facet there will be a quibbling counter argument about another.

          What's clear though is that many people want is for companies to have the same obligations with respect to these gig workers as for employees. These obligations have arisen over the years for good reasons. Companies keep trying to escape the and keep ultimately failing.

          • If companies have the same obligations for gig workers as for employees, they gain no benefit from hiring gig workers, so there will be no gig work to be had.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

          By electing not to drive at a given time, a driver is implicitly denying an offered rate. Some drivers only drive on Friday nights, when surge pricing is in effect.

          Is the waitress or bartender who only works shifts on Friday and Sat nights a contractor then as well?

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by ejasons ( 205408 )

            Is the waitress or bartender who only works shifts on Friday and Sat nights a contractor then as well?

            If they can choose whether or not they want to come in on those nights, and can leave whenever they want, and only serve those customers that they want, and get paid based on how many drinks they serve, then, yes, I would say that they are.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by lsllll ( 830002 )

        Another very important aspect of being an independent contractor is that you can set your own prices and do your own evaluation what's economically reasonable.

        I am a contractor, and under most cases I do not get to set my rate. If some job is willing to pay $100/hour and I ask for $125/hour, they would most likely tell me to take a hike. Now, granted if my skills as a programmer are super-duper and the company is just DYING to get my services, they may agree to $125/hour, but when it comes to an Uber model and they're offering $22/hour (or whatever per mile/ride), if you don't take it, they'll just move on to the next contractor, as they should.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Torton ( 1367965 )
      They may be able to work for multiple ride sharing companies, but do they actually do that? And can they set their own rate? Where I live, you may claim to be a contractor, but if your income is largely coming from a single organisation, then the fiscal authorities will view you as an employee anyway.

    • And (with Uber at least) they are free to decline rides if they don't want to take them.

      And that's only because of the recent lawsuits concerning employment status vs. contractor status.

      Before that, we had to maintain various acceptance rates if we wanted to get bonuses, or if we didn't want to get deactivated.

    • You picked out a few of the features of contracting and ignored all the things that make you legally a contractor.

      Incidentally you just described employees of my local taxi company (who also have Uber stickers in their window by the way). There are legal definitions for what is and isn't contracting, and you can't list some without listing others. They also aren't equal everywhere in the world.

      So to flip your argument on the head:
      Drivers can't set prices as they please.
      Drivers can't unilaterally decide on t

  • Uber then mumbled ... (Score:3)

    by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @09:02PM (#59415724)

    "We are challenging this preliminary but incorrect determination, because drivers are independent contractors in New Jersey and elsewhere," Uber spokeswoman Alix Anfang told Bloomberg Law.

    "And our business model depends on this -- so we can treat our non-employees as disposable assets and operate w/o any responsibility to them or the community."

    • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

      by Roodvlees ( 2742853 )
      Don't like it?
      Don't join Uber.
      Sadly as a result of government extortion people have little other options elsewhere.
      Now one more option is taken away from them.
      Why would that benefit any Uber driver?

  • By simply reclassifying "A" as "B", the State can demand millions of dollars from anyone... It simply shouldn't be that way.

  • Gig Economy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Confused ( 34234 ) on Thursday November 14, 2019 @10:22PM (#59415860) Homepage

    Why are all the people afraid the sky is falling if the holy gig-economy has to play a little more by the rules and crying how many millions of jobs will be lost by a little regulation?

    If there's a need for the service, it'll still be viable even with the new rules. In this case the need for transportation doesn't go away only because Uber has 20% more costs to conform to worker protection laws. They might have to rise the prices a little and be a little less wasteful on management bonuses. And if this breaks the company, in true capitalist manner it means they business wasn't sound enough. Some else will come up with a better solution. True capitalism at work.

    When those so-called free-marketeers cry foul whenever their preferred loophole gets plugged, they're closer to the socialist cry-babies calling for a nanny state. Capitalism is best system to maximise profit under given circumstances. If the circumstances change, one just adapts.

    • So let's legalize murder, because some company will be able to profit from it.

      • You are joking, but why do you think we have laws about safety in the work place?

        Because some companies don't care if a few employees die, if it grows the bottom line.

    • I mean, by all accounts, Uber doesn't have a sound business model even without this issue.

      The only thing they had was first-mover status. They were banking on being the only game in town, after crushing the cab cartels. Then they could set their prices however they liked, and we'd be back to the same prices as in cabs, but now Uber would be making all the money. They failed, and so they run this ridiculous money-losing business year after year, banking on self-driving cars becoming viable soon so they don't

  • ...but that sounds like a huge tax bill for just one state.

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