Will Electric Cars Last Longer Than Combustion-Engine Cars? (qz.com) 393
Long-time Slashdot reader jimminy_cricket shared Qz's report on some of "the highest-mileage Teslas in the world":
Few have driven a Tesla to the point at which the vehicle really starts to show its age. But Tesloop, a shuttle service in Southern California composed of Teslas, was ticking the odometers of its cars well past 300,000 miles with no signs of slowing... These long days have pushed Tesla's engineering to the limit, making Tesloop an extreme testbed for the durability of Elon Musk's cars.Tesloop provided Quartz with five years of maintenance logs, where its vehicles racked up over more than 2.5 million miles, to understand how the electric vehicles (EV) are living up to the promise of cheaper vehicles with unprecedented durability compared to their conventional combustion-engine counterparts.
The results reveal Tesla to be a company still ironing out bugs in its products, but one that pushes the limits of what vehicles can do. "When we first started our company, we predicted the drive train would practically last forever," Tesloop founder Haydn Sonnad told Quartz. "That's proven to be relatively true." He notes that every car except one, a vehicle taken out of service after a collision with a drunk driver, is still running. "The cars have never died of old age," he added....
[T]he implications could be huge. Every year, corporations and rental car companies add more than 12 million vehicles in Europe and North America to their fleets. Adding EVs to the mix could see those cars lasting five times longer -- costing a fraction of conventional cars over the same period -- while feeding a massive new stream of used electric cars into the marketplace.... One of the first surveys done on EVs came this March when New York City revealed its first lifetime analysis of fuel and maintenance costs for its light-passenger fleet. It found conventional vehicle maintenance was two to four times higher than the $386 spent on EVs. That's before gas... If EVs continued to perform well past this point, the economics of the car market could change. Lower fuel prices and more durable vehicles could, theoretically, push total cost of ownership below conventional vehicles.
Several of the Teslas in their fleet have already driven nearly half a million miles.
The results reveal Tesla to be a company still ironing out bugs in its products, but one that pushes the limits of what vehicles can do. "When we first started our company, we predicted the drive train would practically last forever," Tesloop founder Haydn Sonnad told Quartz. "That's proven to be relatively true." He notes that every car except one, a vehicle taken out of service after a collision with a drunk driver, is still running. "The cars have never died of old age," he added....
[T]he implications could be huge. Every year, corporations and rental car companies add more than 12 million vehicles in Europe and North America to their fleets. Adding EVs to the mix could see those cars lasting five times longer -- costing a fraction of conventional cars over the same period -- while feeding a massive new stream of used electric cars into the marketplace.... One of the first surveys done on EVs came this March when New York City revealed its first lifetime analysis of fuel and maintenance costs for its light-passenger fleet. It found conventional vehicle maintenance was two to four times higher than the $386 spent on EVs. That's before gas... If EVs continued to perform well past this point, the economics of the car market could change. Lower fuel prices and more durable vehicles could, theoretically, push total cost of ownership below conventional vehicles.
Several of the Teslas in their fleet have already driven nearly half a million miles.
Yes (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
I would also add that Tesla (the company) will outlast many of the incumbent auto OEMs. They are arriving late to the EV party, and very few of them have vehicles on offer that really challenge Tesla on price, range, and features. Sure, there are some cheaper EVs out there, but they don't match Tesla's range, or if they do they're more expensive. The transition to EVs is going to happen a lot faster than they expect, and they simply don't have the capability to ramp up production in time to catch up.
Re: Yes (Score:4, Interesting)
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Besides fixing occasional recall issues, what good does a software update do for an F150?
I don't know about a F150. I drive a 2016 BMW 328i. The iDrive system has a lot of software in it, so much so that they update it all the time. There should probably be a rule: if any computer-based system gets sufficiently complex, it will need periodic updates forever. Maybe it's not "computer based" but "computer with a interface for humans."
My expectations is more and more cars are going that way where the whole comfort control/safety/vehicle settings/navigation/cameras/entertainment system will be one
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Such a comparison doesn't really make sense. Besides fixing occasional recall issues, what good does a software update do for an F150?
Some vehicles get re-tuned by the manufacturer each model year, as they figure out subtle new tricks to slightly improve efficiency. This added efficiency improves output, mileage, or both. Some of these tuning changes require absolutely zero equipment changes, and occur entirely in the ROM. Sadly, they are rarely applied to newer vehicles, though sometimes vehicles are reflashed if the dealer happens to hook them up.
The last thing we need is for car makers to be able to demand money to unlock features that were already physically present on the cars we bought, such as A/C, electric windows, remote start, etc.
Cars are never hack-proof. They often have anti-hacking features, but someone always figure
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I would also add that Tesla (the company) will outlast many of the incumbent auto OEMs. They are arriving late to the EV party, and very few of them have vehicles on offer that really challenge Tesla on price, range, and features.
I always thought that the strategy of the traditional ICE manufactures was to wait and hope that Tesla would crater. Then they could buy up Tesla technology and patents at bargain basement prices. And then they wouldn't need to invest like Tesla did in developing their own technologies.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the traditional car makers had secret "shorting funds" to help spread Tesla FUD.
Re:Yes (Score:5, Informative)
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Spot-on.
But unfortunately, the government will probably bail-out the old IC car manufacturers.
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But unfortunately, the government will probably bail-out the old IC car manufacturers.
That depends on which party is in power. In 2008 in the Senate, the auto industry bailout bill received 40 yes votes from Democrats and only 10 from Republicans. The no votes were 4 Democrats and 31 Republicans.
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The transition to EVs is going to happen a lot faster than they expect, and they simply don't have the capability to ramp up production in time to catch up.
The transition to electric vehicles can only happen if there is enough production capacity to keep up, and I have my doubts that Tesla is going to reach the output of companies like Honda, Ford, or GM any time soon.
I would also add that Tesla (the company) will outlast many of the incumbent auto OEMs.
If Tesla is to outlast the incumbents then it will have to be able to stay ahead of the next Tesla. Tesla was able to move so quickly to building a car that sold well because it didn't have the inertia of factories, people, etc. that held it to a given product or market. Someone could come in w
Me too (Score:5, Interesting)
I tend to run my cars out till they are very low in resale value. The consequence of this is that if they get in to any fender bender then the insurance company totals them. If they require repairs for safe operation then I take the Totaling Insurance offer. Likewise I sell my cars when I reach a milage or decrepitude where the likely cost of single repair for a major subsystem will be 50% of the value of the car. e.g. the transmission. I do that before I need that repair.
Otherwise if I'm spending less than $1000 per year on upkeep I hang onto them.
I don't see EV's eliminating the totaling problem for venerable cars, but I can see them removing the latter. I will be able to run them till I actually don't need them for the use case I have at that point in my life.
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so you what, just drive around looking to get into accidents?
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I don't see EV's eliminating the totaling problem for venerable cars
Telsa Autopilot has a much lower accident rate per mile than human-controlled cars.
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What does it say about someone who includes insurance settlement as a standard element in his purchasing calculus?
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If a vehicle is getting so old that it's no longer dependable in spite of regular maintenance, or there's so much corrosion that it just doesn't feel
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Re:Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
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Exactly. That's exactly how it happened when IC cars were finally drivable for 100,00 miles. All of the car companies went bankrupt. /s
Re:Yes (Score:4, Insightful)
But it is true the market for expensive sedans is smaller than the market for family cars. But electric cars will not always remain expensive. Costs are dropping, Tesla is keeping average sales price above 40K because it is constrained by production, not demand. When that market is completely saturated and it will cut costs. 240 mile range model 3 will be selling for 30K in a couple of years.
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It's also going to depend on the price of gas. I noticed that here in BC, electric sales were up 100% and we have the most expensive gas in N. America as well as some of the cheapest hydro. One person I know who just bought a Tesla, single father, basically just a labourer figures he's saving $70 a week on gas, which adds up.
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I'm sure today's fashion-conscious population don't really want their cars to last that long.
The obvious answer is cars with easy to change seats, carpets, dashboards, etc. That way you can change the interior every couple of years and get back the new car smell/vibe.
It also won't matter so much if people throw up in one.
Re:Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure today's fashion-conscious population don't really want their cars to last that long.
Do today's fashion conscious phone buyers keep their phone until it dies? Of course not, they trade them in after 9 to 18 months. Same for cars, once people get bored with the look of their car they trade them in for something with a new look.
The longer a car lasts the higher its resell value. If the car keeps it's value then it will be easier to trade in for something they see as better. Lasting longer might mean people keep them for less time.
The people that buy a USED car tend to be those that drive them until they die, in which case they care much less about fashion but more of keeping maintenance costs down, comfort/convenience, and reliability.
The obvious answer is cars with easy to change seats, carpets, dashboards, etc. That way you can change the interior every couple of years and get back the new car smell/vibe.
There's plenty of this already for popular car and truck models. This has gone to a point for some vehicles that someone could build something like a Jeep CJ from all aftermarket parts. This happens only if there is some assurance that the design changes little to none after many years, and for the "fashion conscious" car buyers this is not popular. People like the idea that others can tell that they have the latest model by just looking at it from across a parking lot.
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Same for cars, once people get bored with the look of their car they trade them in for something with a new look.
In my experience (anecdotal, I know) it isn't really a case of fashion. The people I know who trade up every three years are the people who don't want to deal with issues. They're the people who get a $250 bill for routine brake work, and begin to worry that everything else in the car is on the verge of needing work. That takes the shine off in their eyes. Never mind that the cost of fixing any issues for the next five years is dwarfed by the depreciation in the first three years of a car's life, the unknow
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Pfft. My uncle still drives a 1992 Dodge Caravan.
Re:Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure today's fashion-conscious population don't really want their cars to last that long.
That is good. We need a thriving used-car market for electric vehicles so that low-income people can afford them.
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It is kind of difficult to spin. Electric transportation simply lasts longer than ICE transportation, be it trains, trolleybuses or cars. 50-60 years old electric locomotives are quite common.
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I'm waiting for the neck beard Tesla haters to try and spin this somehow.
I don't hate Teslas, I just don't want to buy one. The styling doesn't do anything for me.
That being said, the electronics in cars are rapidly evolving. I'm sure by the time a Tesla gets to be 10 years old, there will be better radios, sensors, displays, and computers, enough so that an original Tesla S will seem pretty hokey. Plus there's always things like the seats, carpets, and whatnot wearing out. Thus it might not be the drive train but the interior which sends e-vehicles to the parts yard.
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Thus it might not be the drive train but the interior which sends e-vehicles to the parts yard.
The lives of my cars have always been limited by rust, nothing to do with being EV or IC. In any case, the type of people who buy new cars don't want them to last, they want an excuse to change with the fashion. I work with some guys who routinely change [IC] cars every two years, with nothing wrong with them and capable of lasting at least 10 years. I got > 300,000 miles out of my last IC car on the original engine; 20 years old and it was not worn out then.
Re: Yes (Score:2)
This right here , if you take care of your vehicle, change the oil, filters, transmission fluid on a timely basis, you can get pretty high miles out of them.
The big problem with those of us from snow belt areas is body rot, which is why I liked the Saturn brand so much, (plastic bodies). Those were the first US cars that you saw people driving past 300k miles.
That being sad, there's less to go wrong mechanically in a Tesla, how long the electrics last is another thing...cars are brutal places for electronic
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Rest of the car, is same. So same issues.
Re: Yes (Score:4, Insightful)
No, rest of the car is not the same, and does not have the same issues.
ICE cars have all sorts of nooks and crannies and channels and heat shields and places for salt, snow, and ice to build up under them. Teslas really don't have any of that [reddit.com].
I've driven old cars in cold climates almost all my life, and when I look at that, and compare it to this sort of standard ICE undercarriage [ytimg.com], I get why mine rusted out and had so many issues. Even a car wash once a week in the winter (not possible for months at a time, really) wouldn't necessarily get everything out of all the nooks and crannies under an ICE car.
Now, bottom of doors, running boards, fenders, and wheel wells? Sure, same issues there. But those things are fixable. When your floor boards rust through, that's pretty much end-of-life. And when you realize that you need 3 grand of rusty stuff replaced under your car of the same value, same thing. BEVs don't really have that issue. The undercarriage is usually pretty armored to prevent battery punctures and flat to help aerodynamics, both of which help with rust problems as well.
Of course, I have no idea how other manufacturers are going to do it, but Tesla's skateboard design potentially allows you to take the expensive batteries and motors and just drop a new shell on top of it if the old one has issues. As battery technology progresses, it may well be that several owners could buy the powertrain and put their own "car" on top of it.
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From my admittedly limited understanding of chemistry, it seems like washing your car every week would be counter-productive. Unless i
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I'm waiting for the neck beard Tesla haters to try and spin this somehow.
I don't hate Teslas, and have no issue with the people who like them. I still like well engineered combustion engines though, and manually operable gearboxes as well, and don't mind the maintenance costs. To each their own.
Digital watches require less maintenance than mechanical watches, but people still spend way more money for the latter. Simplicity has its place, but if you can afford it craftsmanship is a wonderful thing as well.
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They reported no perceptible loss of power, peak power, acceleration or speed.
Re:Yes (Score:5, Interesting)
I've never heard of a Tesla battery that took 150,000 miles to lose 10%. Losing 10% after 15–20,000 miles is a lot more typical. But then, something fascinating happens: after the weakest cells have all died, what you end up with is a very stable battery that doesn't lose much range after that, even after hundreds of thousands of miles.
In other words, if Panasonic's quality control on their cells were better, I see no reason that any Tesla battery (at least any of the newer 100 kWh S/X batteries or the Model 3 packs) wouldn't consistently last for half a million miles, if not longer.
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Only the utility companies that are failing to complete the units they start are standing in the way of nuclear power. Thus far seven units have been abandoned in the last decade - all due to the utility deciding it would not be economical to operate if completed. No protesters or lawsuits or bad press involved. The only thing preventing more nuclear power plants - hard-nosed capitalists. The problem is that nuke power plants are not competitive with cheap natural gas available (and uneconomical with coal,
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So long as the government hands out money for "zero carbon" wind and solar but leave out nuclear power then nuclear power will have problems competing. If defined honestly the term "zero carbon" should include nuclear fission as it produces less CO2 per kilowatt-hour than wind, solar, or any other energy source.
The problem isn't protesters, it's people like Representative AOC and Senator Sanders. They write up bills that will hand out money for wind and solar but give nothing to nuclear. Natural gas can
How many fewer moving parts? (Score:5, Interesting)
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But you can't fix any of it yourself or take the cars to some "unauthorized" mechanic
Just like I don't care that batteries I never have to replace are sealed in phones, I also do not care that parts that will never need repair are not user serviceable...
I am pretty sure Tesla owners can at least change tires though. :-)
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Fix what? Electrical issues with my BEV? Battery pre-conditioning routine? A regenerative breaking issue?
BEV issues aren't like changing your own oil, plugs, and wires or swapping out a water pump. The mundane "fix it yourself" shit of ICEs largely doesn't exist in BEVs. It's mostly complicated as shit, you probably shouldn't do this without a certification, or it doesn't exist.
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The servo motor controllers could develop faults, but that's just a bolt-in electrical part. If they're of a robust design
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I mean the Germans are already trying to solve that. 2 speed tranny in the new Porsche.
New electric Mustang concept has an old-school 6 speed.
https://www.motor1.com/news/38... [motor1.com]
Not everyone wants simple.
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My ICE SUV is 20 years old and has 305,000 miles (Score:2)
No problems at all. Original engine and transmission.
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how much did you spend on maintenance?
Re:My ICE SUV is 20 years old and has 305,000 mile (Score:5, Interesting)
Tesla forces you to bring the car in once a year for like $800 to check it over. That buys a lot of oil changes and maintenance on a regular car.
This is on top of paying more for insurance (since Tesla is pricier than most cars), so currently I see it as a wash.
Stop lying. Tesla recommends maintenance every 24 month and a tire rotation every 10K miles. There is no requirement, and it doesn't cost $800. If you decide to have Tesla do this, its $475 but you are free to have it done at any auto shop.
https://www.tesla.com/support/... [tesla.com]
As a Tesla owner, my insurance went up $78 annually over my Lexus RX350. However, the Tesla cost twice what that car cost.
Stop spreading lies.
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Tesla's new drive unit is rated for 1,000,000 miles. Sure the batteries won't last that long at full capacity - but I am really curious to see how long the batteries will really go.
Here's a Model S with 400,000 miles on it:
https://electrek.co/2018/07/17... [electrek.co]
Thats quoting the same source as this post does. He's running a shuttle service, so he gets a lot of miles in a short time.
Very typical for that kind of use.
The service records are interesting.
A pair of Tesla headlights costs $2800? That's expensive!
The Mercedes "recommended frequency" line items make no sense. No one just changes timing chains at 125K miles, or blower motors at 75K, or plugs at 50K, or ECU's at 125K. I'm calling bullshit on all of it.
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Most of my recent cars strongly recommend a timing belt change at regular intervals. Many engines these days are of an interference design, and if the belt breaks, all sorts of things inside of the engine get mashed. Bent valves - that sort of thing. Very expensive repairs.
In some cases you can get away without it, but if you put it off long enough, eventually it will come and bite you in the shorts.
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Sure, but is that typical for your model of vehicle?
Saying that the top 1% in longevity can break 300k miles isn't remarkable. Having a model of car that, short of a collision, is almost certain to be running just find well beyond 300k is a game changer.
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I got a little over 200K on my 1999 Ford Ranger before I traded it to a guy to paint my living and dining room. He shipped it to his brother in El Salvador - and it's still running strong, 4 years later. Damn thing would never have anything go wrong with it, so it made it hard to justify trading out. Manual 5 speed, only thing I did (besides tires and brakes) was regular oil changes, air filter change ever 50K miles, and one battery. Didn't even change the spark plugs.
Now, my current main ride, a 2015 H
Car companies have new problems as cars last longe (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Car companies have new problems as cars last lo (Score:4, Funny)
Manufactures don't make new seats for 12 year old models.
If only there was a way to solve that problem...
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IF only cars held to a specification on where the holes line up on parts in a car the way they do with ATX, ITX, mATX, etc. Imagine the spacing on the mounts for the seats in a car always being in an exact location so aftermarket seats could be purchased and installed in a chassis without it having to be for _that_ exact car. Things would be highly affordable if that were the case.
self driving cars end software updates at 2-3 year (Score:2)
self driving cars end software updates at 2-3 years and they may not get map updates / other need updates to stay on the road.
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> There is, it is just a mindset change the companies have to get used to.
The original Volkswagen Beetle (Type 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] solved that problem by building basically the same body and parts for over half a century.
> Or they could just do it like Apple
Introducing the "Apple iCar".
* costs 5 times as much as other cars
* sealed non-replacable battery
* software updates degrade performance after a year or 2
What else am I missing?
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
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Apparently the upcoming generation of batteries actually needs to be heated to fast-charge without being damaged. This, of course, is the simplest circuit of all: resistive wire.
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Electric cars are only slightly more complicated than your washer and dryer. Complexity is the enemy of reliability.
The failures I've seen most often on cars I've owned, and helped others fix, have been electrical problems. This will be things like the power windows not working, power locks acting funny, and weird HVAC behavior. Mechanical issues tend to be things like doors, locks, latches, and (again) power windows. Problems with things like turning signals and brakes don't go away with getting an electric power plant either.
A modern automobile is quite complex but I'm not so sure the engine has much to do with it.
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Electric cars are only slightly more complicated than your washer and dryer.
And if you think of your car as an appliance (and many people do) you will be happy with them.
Hmmm,well... (Score:2)
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Ford and Chevy are $hitting bricks with the popularity of the Dodge Ram for example.
Ford sells over a million F Series globally every year.
https://www.freep.com/story/mo... [freep.com]
I don't think they are that worried.
Batteries? (Score:2)
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The summary conveniently leaves out the bits from the article about battery life / cost still being a big question yet before we can actually start worrying about car markets changing or collapsing. Not to mention that after the initial period where electric vehicles are built and supported well enough to create mass demand for them, the inevitable "cash-in" phase will arrive, and all of these costs will go up, and the vehicle quality will decline.
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Battery costs are only going to come down. Even if you replace after ten years, it won't cost near as much as the original one did. You probably want to get the internals (nav system, autopilot, etc.) upgraded at least that often anyhow, and planned maintenance is never as much of an inconvenience as failure in use.
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Battery costs are only going to come down. Even if you replace after ten years, it won't cost near as much as the original one did
Keep telling yourself that.
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Battery costs are only going to come down. Even if you replace after ten years, it won't cost near as much as the original one did
Keep telling yourself that.
Yep, still trending down. [commodityr...hgroup.com]
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Battery costs are only going to come down.
I don't believe you. There is already a shortage of vital material for meeting current demands and it takes a long time to ramp up mining. The places that have the best mines are in some cases also places that might not like us all that much.
We are trading an import problem of oil with an import problem of things like rare earth elements, lithium, cobalt, and more. Unless the US federal government pulls it's collective head out of it's ass and encourage domestic mining we will have a shortage very soon,
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What I was implying about costs going up was that beyond the "investment" period for building a market for electric vehicles, they would rely on overcharging for parts and service as they always have, so regardless of whether the actual costs should come down, they probably won't. And relative to actual, un-subsidized (by the car makers) costs, the prices will probably rise.
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It's not so simple. If you keep the batteries between 20% and 80% SOC (state of charge), then battery life is vastly improved. Charging to 100% (and leaving it charged at 100%) has a big impact on life, so avoiding this (and avoiding deep discharge) will typically result in much longer life.
Also, if you buy your EV in CA, then you get a 10 year warranty on the battery.
That old bullshit again ... (Score:2)
Tesla already does that. To avoid the damn things losing half their capacity every TWO years.
Call me in 10 years, when all current teslas will be at the toxic waste landfill because their batteries are dead but deliberately an integral part of the chassis instead of easily replaceable.
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Tesla already does that. To avoid the damn things losing half their capacity every TWO years.
Call me in 10 years, when all current teslas will be at the toxic waste landfill because their batteries are dead but deliberately an integral part of the chassis instead of easily replaceable.
Stop spreading lies. Tesla batteries were designed with swapping capability. They are designed to be replaced in 90 to 120 seconds with a lift machine. Tesla was originally going to offer battery swap stations instead of superchargers.
What oil company is paying you to lie?
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I call complete and utter bullshit. (Score:2)
There aren no batteries on the market with that kind of stats. No matter how much you cheat with smaller charging cycles than the claimed capacity.
I give them 2â"10 years before they are all trash.
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Last Longer vs Cost Less (Score:4, Interesting)
It seems reasonably likely that the total cost of an EV over 10 years will be less than internal combustion because the fuel costs less, many components which require regular replacement don't exists (oil, spark plugs, exhaust etc) and they are less likely to break down. BUT, is this the same as "lasting longer"? To answer this question we have to ask what causes a vehicle to no longer be worth owning and I think that might vary by where you live and how many miles you do. Here in the UK - where it rains a lot - very many vehicles are scrapped because of corrosion problems rather than mechanical breakdown. I can't think of any reason why an EV should rust any less.
I suspect therefore that EVs will last longer than petrol and diesel vehicles, but that the effect will be much more noticeable for owners who do high mileages or who live in dryer climates.
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It should be possible to seal quite a bit more of the car against road salt, because there are fewer moving parts in general. This may or may not slow down the onset and progression of body corrosion.
Southern Califonia doesn't have winter (Score:5, Insightful)
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You are talking about repairs, not general maintenance.
Would you buy a used EV? (Score:2)
I was recently shopping for a used SUV. I bought a 2011 Forester with 110,000 miles for about $7500.
How do people feel about buying a used EV with the same age and mileage? Would you only do it if the battery had been recently replaced?
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Yes, we know you don't like SUVs.
Nobody cares.
Re:A SUV? (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you literally retarded?
Seriously ... I always wondered what kind of moron would buy a vehicle that combines ALL of the disadvantages of all vehicle classes.
False. SUVs have many advantages over regular cars. Including increased visibility, more cargo space, and more comfortable seating.
No, it isn's safer. More mass means deadlier crashes. Yes, to the driver.
False, both the NTHSA and IIHS data have proven this over and over. SUVs are safer for the occupants, but more dangerous to other non-SUV drivers.
Also, they look butt-backwards-ugly. Like the exact opposite of a cool sportscar. With the suspension *raised* instead of lowered.
Fake jeeps with no off-road capabilities.
Dumbest thing since water-tight sundials.
Well that's your opinion (although stated as a fact). And its obvious the vast majority of the nation feels otherwise.
Stop spreading FUD and stop stating your opinions as fact.
Maybe they will - but the price (Score:2)
Great. They'll last a lot longer. So will the mini-mortgage that you have to take out to buy one. Paying $45K+ for a four door sedan (Model 3) is still a big chunk of change for the average American (that's without the longer range battery and other features).
Show me all of your spreadsheets about how savings will come years down the road, and I'll show the car payments today.
When Teslas and its competitors are on par (by cost) with average sedans for the middle class, and the range issue is at parity with
What about the computer? (Score:2)
I had reserved a Tesla Model 3 in 2016, but when I was eventually offered one for a lot more than I had hoped, I had to reevaluate. It seems to me that Tesla's strategy is really to set up an automated taxi fleet capable of making hundreds of thousands of mi
Rental Cars (Score:2)
Apples and Oranges (Score:2)
* What's the point of forcing manufacturers to redesign a car with slightly better gas mileag
Outside of California (Score:3, Interesting)
Great - unless you live outside of California
https://www.zerohedge.com/news... [zerohedge.com]
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Great - unless you live outside of California
https://www.zerohedge.com/news... [zerohedge.com]
This has been proven to be 100% the fault of the owner.
Watch the video and you can see that two bolts have been sheared off (probably from an accidental impact driving off road) that allowed the componentry to form a scoop that is not there normally.
Better headline would read Tesla damaged in accident drives weird and other stuff!
Bought my first EV last month.. (Score:3)
But I went with Hyundai Kona, and not a Tesla.
The more I read, each manufacturer seems to have their own strengths and weaknesses. Tesla, being new to the game, has trouble with fit-and-finish issues, but has mastered the EV end of things. Other manufacturers have largely mastered fit-and-finish - they are playing catch-up on the rest of the technology. Nissan got out to a good start initially, but they have failed to update the Leaf, and for some reason that nobody can explain, still insists on air-cooled batteries.
Battery supply is a huge limiting factor for many manufacturers. New capacity is being added all the time, and the price of batteries is dropping. Batteries is probably where Tesla has the edge right now - they have locked up substantial supplies of the things.
The most important UNADDRESSED problem (Score:3)
I regularly go visit my relatives in Florida. ( Many people have monthly even weekly trips that are in the 4 to 8 hours range, I sometimes go to Minnesota which is a 19 hours of non-stop driving).
Any trip that takes longer then 5 hours is going to require you to add an additional hour for every 5 to stop and (recharge). Added is the fact the batteries are the most expensive part that wears out the most quickly. They SHOULD NOT be recharging batteries _in_ the cars, what is needed are stations that automatically replace the batteries in under 5 min. Then the use case for electric cars will meet or exceed gas cars and the only other possible point of contention is purchase prices.
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Re: (Score:2)
First they did away with the old mechanical voltage regulators. Then they replaced the carburetors with fuel injection. Manual transmissions and clutches have been fading away for a long time.
Now they want to do away with starter motors, alternators, exhaust manifolds, fuel pumps, oil pumps, water pumps, thermostats, head gaskets, fan belts, spark plugs, hoses, air filters... Where's the fun of car ownership anymore? Next thing you know, we'll be getting nostalgic about catalytic converters.
The fun of ownership is actually driving the car that handles well without worrying of a breaking something if I drive it hard.