Motherboard Publishes 'Shadow' App That Blew Up the Iowa Caucus (vice.com) 222
Motherboard has chosen to publish the app used to tabulate early voting results in Iowa's Democratic Presidential primary. According to editor-in-chief Jason Koebler, "Trust and transparency are core to the U.S. electoral process," and "that's why Motherboard is publishing the app that malfunctioned in Iowa. From the report: The app, called IowaReporter, ultimately won't affect the vote totals of the Iowa caucuses, which are being recounted with paper ballots and other hard documentation. But the app's failure -- and the widespread attention this failure has received -- spurred chaos on election night, followed by speculation, conspiracy theories, and political jockeying. To try to combat that misinformation, it's necessary to offer complete transparency on what the app is, what it can and cannot do, and why it failed.
Motherboard obtained a copy of the app. By decompiling and analyzing it, it's possible to learn more about how the app was built and what might have gone wrong during the Iowa caucus. We reached out to several security researchers and asked them to analyze it for us, and have published an article about their findings. Motherboard waited to publish the app until Shadow, which controls the app's back-end servers and accounts, confirmed that it had been taken offline. [Shadow Inc. CEO Gerard Niemira] stressed that no voter data could be accessed from the app or from any of the databases it used. What we are publishing is an inert app that is no longer being used for an election, that the DNC has stated will not be used in future elections, and that is no longer connected to backend servers or services. You can download the Android .apk file here.
UPDATE 2/6/20: A security firm consulted by ProPublica found that the "IowaReporter" app was also vulnerable to hacking. "The IowaReporterApp was so insecure that vote totals, passwords and other sensitive information could have been intercepted or even changed," reports ProPublica. "Because of a lack of safeguards, transmissions to and from the phone were left largely unprotected."
Motherboard obtained a copy of the app. By decompiling and analyzing it, it's possible to learn more about how the app was built and what might have gone wrong during the Iowa caucus. We reached out to several security researchers and asked them to analyze it for us, and have published an article about their findings. Motherboard waited to publish the app until Shadow, which controls the app's back-end servers and accounts, confirmed that it had been taken offline. [Shadow Inc. CEO Gerard Niemira] stressed that no voter data could be accessed from the app or from any of the databases it used. What we are publishing is an inert app that is no longer being used for an election, that the DNC has stated will not be used in future elections, and that is no longer connected to backend servers or services. You can download the Android .apk file here.
UPDATE 2/6/20: A security firm consulted by ProPublica found that the "IowaReporter" app was also vulnerable to hacking. "The IowaReporterApp was so insecure that vote totals, passwords and other sensitive information could have been intercepted or even changed," reports ProPublica. "Because of a lack of safeguards, transmissions to and from the phone were left largely unprotected."
Somebody did not test at scale (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Somebody did not test at scale (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah. I the app isn't the major problem here. It's the entire process. From what I've read many of the local managers were of an elderly nature and didn't even have their own smartphone. Kind of the first thing you would have thought anyone would check if you want everyone to use an app.
Re: Somebody did not test at scale (Score:2)
Re: Somebody did not test at scale (Score:2, Informative)
Re: Somebody did not test at scale (Score:5, Informative)
Well given that McGowan's husband is Michael Halle. He is a senior strategist employed under Buttigieg's presidential campaign.
There is a huge conflict of interest here.
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Impossible. /s Everyone knows that what's going on with this DNC stuff this time is absolutely above board! They even changed rules to make it happen. Stay right here, while we do our coin flips then change the result to ensure the desired outcome!
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Looking at how they handle the democratic process inside their party, the "Democratic" in "Democratic National Congress" starts increasingly to resemble that in "Democratic People's Republic of Korea", "Democratic Republic of the Congo" or "German Democratic Republic".
Re: Somebody did not test at scale (Score:2, Funny)
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Any day now... Drumpf will be ruined!
You forgot my favorite:
"The walls are closing in!" -Every media host, pundit, talking head from CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, WAPO, NYT, USA Today, NPR, etc., for the last 3.3 years.
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Given the current US political climate, everyone has a conflict of interest.
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Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
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Yeah. I the app isn't the major problem here. It's the entire process. From what I've read many of the local managers were of an elderly nature and didn't even have their own smartphone. Kind of the first thing you would have thought anyone would check if you want everyone to use an app.
Probably the same kind of people who insist on saying application.
Re:Somebody did not test at scale (Score:4, Insightful)
Kind of the first thing you would have thought anyone would check
Nah. The biggest and longest running error that app designer/developers make is assuming everyone is just like them.
From designing UIs that are "obvious" to them, using fonts that people with less than perfect vision find unreadable, colour schemes that they think are "cool", nonsensical or non-existent workflows, functions that do nothing useful except highlight how clever the author is with obscure features, documentation that only makes sense to the developer, assuming that everyone has (or only trying it on) the latest / fastest / biggest device.
But worst of all, assuming that everyone is a native English speaker and understands deep technical terms ... just because thhe author does.
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Yeah, I know this sort. "How can people know we made this configurable if we don't force them to configure it? Delete ALL the defaults!" "What do you mean number of minutes in an hour should be fixed? What if they redefine hour to be 62 minutes? This must be a configuration entry and it must be entered before you start your work!"
Plus a documentation that lists every single function, option and object in alphabetic order, giving the type of data it accepts (but not what the input actually means), type of o
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You are vastly over-complicating this. These are public votes done in an open forum, which get paper-checked afterwards. The candidates themselves had apps that their supporters were using to track how the evening was going.
All the app was supposed to do was replace calling up a central office and reading vote counts to them. That's it.
There's no UI or workflow or documentation or anything needed. This could have been a google form, and it would have worked just fine.
List of candidates, space for how many v
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That was not the problem - stop blaming someone older than you. The real problem is that they took $60k - that's sixty measly thousand dollars, and did it in three months, *and* DID NOT TEST FULL SCALE UNTIL HOURS BEFORE THE CAUCUSES.
That's fraud. The company should be sued out of business, and the CEO tried and jailed for fraudulent representation that "oh, sure, we can do it for couch change in no time at all".
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(I am a liberal)
Sounds like the Democratic Party incarnate.
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They probably were running late on the delivery and there is only so much human QA can achieve.
They should have given the project to the Boeing MCAS group. We all know how they are at delivering sound applications on tight delivery schedules.
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There's human factors to consider too -- what designers who get caught really screwing up call "human error".
Who ends up running elections? Elderly retirees. Repositories of valuable wisdom and life experience, maybe, but not the most facile at picking up new technology. Their being hard to design for isn't *their* problem. It's yours.
It's like in the Princes Bride; the one thing the Domingo Montoya wanted as a craftsman was a challenge, like make a sword for an 80 year-old man to fight a duel.
Huh??? (Score:2)
It's like in the Princes Bride; the one thing the Domingo Montoya wanted as a craftsman was a challenge, like make a sword for an 80 year-old man to fight a duel.
The sword you are (probably) referencing was made for Count Rugen - the six fingered man - not an 80 year old man.
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How the fuck does this feature OF THE PHONE OS work when tested one day, but fail on another???
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There was also a misstep in the security for the fall back system -- reporting results by phone. The phone line was overwhelmed by prank calls from Trump supporters.
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I run into it in every job - somebody designed something wich works perfectly fine "in test" and is guaranteed to fail once it has to deal with 1000+ inputs. From file descriptor counts to using incorrect system calls and abstractions - there is a lot of roadkill on the information superhighway.
The terrible part of all of this is that, apparently, the app was field-tested for the first time... one week prior to election day... and failed the test.
Re: Somebody did not test at scale (Score:2)
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Being of a lowly class, you have perfectly exemplified the poor diction and grammar of the common folk, comrade.
Yikes (Score:4, Interesting)
Oddly, they don't say they got permission to publish it, they say they waited until the CEO of Shadow confirmed it has been taken offline.
They're publishing the full apk, in addition to decompiling it.
This is not going to end well for Vice, unless they secretly got permission and don't want to admit it. There is no "fair use" in republishing the whole thing! Especially when the purpose is so people can decompile it.
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in republishing the whole thing!
But they're not republishing the whole thing!
Without the backend, the app is just a front-end leading to nowhere. It can't work. It can't be stress tested. Very little of it can be tested at all. And most likely, the failure didn't occur at the front-end anyhow.
With that said, since we don't have access to the backend, we might as well verify the front-end, just to make sure there is nothing funny going on there. I doubt we'll find anything though.
Re: Yikes (Score:2)
The DNC said THEY werenâ(TM)t planning on using it any longer. Shadow didnâ(TM)t say it had no other clients... state and local elections maybe? Iâ(TM)ve heard rumor RNC used it as well. This was not so harmless as posting some old end of life program.
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Copyright law explicitly protects commentary and criticism of a work as fair use. In this case, it would be quite inadequate to provide commentary or criticism without considering the whole app. Good luck finding a court that agrees with your view of the public interest trade-off between commercial interest in, and commentary or criticism of, a tool that was intended to play a key role in a political nomination process -- and utterly failed at its job
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Don't be in such a hurry. While yes, the law is on side of Shadow in this case, if you look at the broader image - it's unlikely they'll sue. For the simple reason that both sides come under severe scrutiny and get subpoenaed for a lot of stuff during such a lawsuit. And Vice would make sure the lawsuit is very, very public. And they'd publish every little dirty piece of evidence uncovered, even if it happened to be irrelevant to the case (which only becomes apparent in the discovery process; plausibility t
Cheapest bid Vs Best Bid (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cheapest bid Vs Best Bid (Score:5, Informative)
This is "inside man" tendering on a no-bid contract, you can bet your ass on it. The people related to the app, and the organization around it are all DNC insiders, and the people who work behind the scenes. This was a chance for someone to get a cash payout.
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Shadow Inc. was produced by Clinton campaigners and its parent company is owned and operated by Buttigieg staffers. Moreover, Shadow Inc. was paid by Buttigieg and Biden campaigns for undisclosed reasons.
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No bid - Team Hillary 2016 company (Score:3)
"At the center of the confusion is an app reportedly built by a for-profit company called “Shadow Inc.”
https://techcrunch.com/2020/02... [techcrunch.com]
When will the Democratic Party learn that the Clinton machine members have to g
Shadow? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why an app (Score:5, Informative)
You literally enter 5 numbers, three of them being passwords. Why the hell is this an app? Just make a fucking webpage.
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too cheap.
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Web pages were never meant for tiny screens. That said I always use desktop mode in my mobile browser.
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You literally enter 5 numbers, three of them being passwords. Why the hell is this an app? Just make a fucking webpage.
If I had a million mod points, you'd have them all. Exactly this.
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Re: Why an app (Score:2)
Well it's for a caucus, which is generally an in person event. There was probably something (hackable) to verify where the person was caucusing. Websites can't do that nearly as well.
It's the data format, stupid (Score:5, Informative)
Since no one is going to read the actual article... They are saying that the app worked fine but whey they tried moving data from their system to the Democratic Party quality control system they formatted in the wrong way and it got rejected. So yeah, they didn't do end-to-end testing and one step of the process failed.
They also say that the logic to calculate the number of delegates was in the app. For me it's also strange. Why put any logic in the app? Why not just send number of votes?
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Because of the caucus process. The app was helping the local organizers by calculating who was below the 15% mark so they could realign to those above 15%.
They could have let the central server do that part, but that would require interactions with the central server during the actual caucus process, not just for counting the results.
Or they could have left out the helpful bit, but since the helpful bit actually worked, that seems like a loss.
Re:It's the data format, stupid (Score:4, Insightful)
Thank you for pointing that out. The fact that it was a dedicated app of some kind has nothing to do with this. If the front end had been a webpage the same issue would have occurred - the problem was totally on the back end. In the article, I find comments like this to be pointless...
"...the app was clearly done by someone following a tutorial. It’s similar to projects I do with my mentees who are learning how to code," Rahjerdi said. "They started with a starter package and they just added things on top of it. I get deja vu from my classes because the code looks like someone Googled things like 'how to add authentication to React Native App' and followed the instructions," Rahjerdi said.
So what was he expecting? This is a trivially simple data entry app. Was he expecting them to create their own compiler language and libraries, so that it looked totally foreign and unfamiliar to him compared to anything else? I mean who doesn't create an app in an IDE using one of the starter templates and build off that? I guess people as brilliant as him always start totally, completely from scratch and invent everything they need as they go. I especially liked this part "'how to add authentication to React Native App' and followed the instructions" because obviously he wanted them to invent their own authentication method. LOL
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Was he expecting them to create their own compiler language and libraries, so that it looked totally foreign and unfamiliar to him compared to anything else? I mean who doesn't create an app in an IDE using one of the starter templates and build off that? I guess people as brilliant as him always start totally, completely from scratch and invent everything they need as they go. I especially liked this part "'how to add authentication to React Native App' and followed the instructions" because obviously he wanted them to invent their own authentication method.
Entirely agree. Skipping over the testing/deployment debacle, having a gaggle of security pros come in after the fact to take a couple free whacks at the dead horse is ... bizarre. Not a good look guys.
This is not "The App" (Score:4, Insightful)
Ya, so what? (Score:2)
Has anyone found out what the format issue was? (Score:2)
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Oh, you know it's a CSV file. Probably going into an Access database running on Win98.
Fair elections = paper ballots (Score:2)
These issues only prove what a lot of us have always said: If you want people to trust your election, use paper ballots and a transparent process. E-voting, apps, and technology remove the tangible element of the vote and replace it with an opaque system that's impossible to fully secure.
I question the ulterior motive of anyone who tries to convince me that electronic voting systems are the ideal for holding trustworthy, fair elections. If you don't question them, it's probably time for you to reread Orwel
Third party fiber? Right... (Score:2)
How does third party fiber force your customers to reboot?
Iowa delayed results are a scam by the DNC (Score:3)
There is a huge issue going on with Iowa, and it has NOTHING to do with the app. The app is just an excuse the DNC is using to delay putting out the results. The caucus process isn't like your typical election. You have each station, but the way you have it public means that at every stage, supporters for each candidate are there to see the official numbers. If the person in charge of the location is playing with things, that is one issue, but you have first round numbers, they see how many people are supporting each candidate, then the supporters of non-viable candidates then have the option to switch to another candidate in the hopes of helping that candidate become viable or to just go home. The second round results are recorded, and again, non-viable candidates are written off, getting nothing for that location.
The ONLY place the app comes into play is in the reporting from whoever runs the location to the Iowa Democratic Party. Yes, there were clearly bogus results, but at each station, the actual number of people voting for a candidate was done locally, and the only possible thing to check is the exact number of delegates awarded to each candidate at that location(so if it was Pete with 5 and Sanders with 5, that could potentially be wrong, so checking the MATH from each location might be needed, but the actual numbers of people who sided with a candidate in first or second round should be fully documented, and no app should be able to change those numbers. A reporting app should only report, and not do ANYTHING else, because it isn't being used as a calculator to decide who wins.
Honestly, a spreadsheet could easily have been set up, put in the numbers, bingo, there's your numbers. App has zero to do with ANYTHING. The Iowa Democratic Party is looking for a way to hand pick the candidate and allow Hillary fans to decide who wins in 2020, even when Hillary isn't running.
Re: The damage has been done (Score:4, Insightful)
Think about it, suppose we keep the well intentioned ACA, which mandates only 20% of premiums can be kept by the insurance providers. These insurance providers, some being publicly traded companies, others privately owned, must show a growth in profits above inflation, or they will get crushed on the stock market. If their income is capped at 20% of the premiums they are incentivized to see premiums get bigger and thus the actual cost of health services must get bigger at faster than the rate of inflation. Which is EXACTLY what is happening. Insurance providers therefore have conflicting incentives, never allow more than 80% of premiums leave your company, but make sure premiums grow every year so the remaining 20% gets bigger.
So, does the republican agenda do anything to help? Does lifting the constraint on insurance taking 20% help keep healthcare costs down? No, it simply means the insurance providers can have a bigger share. Since it breaks the conflicting incentives of insurance providers it might for a while slow the actual price medical providers and pharmaceuticals can demand, but they also mostly want to show greater than inflation growth in profits(though some medical providers are non-profits). The medical services are one of those items that doesn't work with Econ 101 style supply and demand curves, since demand does really change as price changes, people just get sicker or die more when they can't afford health services, which leads to more demand on the system(sicker people are both more desperate and more expensive to treat) and economic loss from unnecessary deaths.
Likewise, the whole insurance debacle is a thorn in the side of business in the US. Businesses can't just be focused on doing business, they have to spend untold billions in HR administration dealing with healthcare. Startups have an extra hurdle to jump. Would be entrepreneurs, especially those with families, have an extra something to fear when deciding to leave their jobs to pursue their dreams. So, even if you are a red blooded capitalist, but not an anarcho-capitalist(which our Republican Party is turning into), you would insist on some kind of socialized medicine. Bernie's proposal is not far-left. It's pretty much the most moderate thing possible.
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Some of what you say makes sense, but medical services are absolutely constrained by supply and demand curves.
Demand changes as prices go up, but most health care spending now is a luxury good. Demand changes as people have more disposable income to spend. They choose to spend it on consuming more health care.
Here's probably more than you ever wanted to know [randomcrit...alysis.com] about health care economics related to price and spending.
Re: The damage has been done (Score:5, Insightful)
Likewise, the argument that people consume more health services as their income increases is a fallacy. The majority of people avoid the doctor like the plague. If they would only consume health services early and often overall consumption would dramatically DECREASE. Why? Because conditions like diabetes, cancer and heart disease are much easier to treat in early stages than late. Our society should do anything it can to increase medical consumption, meaning decreasing barriers to early treatment, if we want to reduce overall healthcare expenditure. However, that leads to lower profits for the entire industry and so the current system discourages it.
You really don't need a PhD to see how the healthcare system is broken. Many economists are hell bent on validating the system that funnels state funds into the pockets of the richest 0.1%. When they start pulling out N layers of complexity with M layers of models, you know some shenanigans are going on. Why? Because very few neoliberal economic models match reality due to the underlying assumptions and simplifications they make.
Re: The damage has been done (Score:5, Interesting)
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Your first graph is about college tuition, and ironically doesn't even show what you claim it does. The slope is there already before 2005.
Your second graph also doesn't show any kind of change in the slope in 2005 or afterwards.
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Re: The damage has been done (Score:3)
Your model doesn't make any sense at all.
Publicly traded companies are not all expected to grow like that. When a market is saturated or a conglomerate is already bigly enough, or a business just collects rent, then they typically can't grow in a meaningful way and pay out dividends instead. What category might insurers be in? I'm not making it up, go look at their dividend payouts.
A limit on profit margins... and you're suggesting the price will just go up to meet growth requirements... uhhh wtf did you
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The ACA was written with the help of insurance companies, don't think they had zero input on the matter. Great you now have Obamacare! Only a an $8000 deductible? Wow thanks insurance is really affordable now...
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"Likewise, the whole insurance debacle is a thorn in the side of business in the US. Businesses can't just be focused on doing business, they have to spend untold billions in HR administration dealing with healthcare."
Correct. And that is the great mystery; why is the rest of corporate America not fighting to get this liability off their books? My former employer claimed that they spent $14,000 per employee per year, on average. You would think they would want to lose that cost. They could have dropped the
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why is the rest of corporate America not fighting to get this liability off their books?
Because companies know that it helps with employee retention, which keeps wages down and provides other benefits to the company. It's really hard for somebody to leave a company if they know they will lose health insurance if that happens, particularly if they already have health problems. It's not just that they would lose their insurance, even if their new company offers insurance at the same level they still would have to deal with changing doctors, finding new clinics they are allowed to go to, and sp
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Also, even if the final vote totals are corrected using paper ballots, that won't actually undo the damage. The most important thing candidates get from the Iowa caucus isn't the votes themselves - which are only a tiny proportion of what they need to win the Democrat nomination - it's the perception of being ahead or behind that those results create and its knock-on effect on the rest of the primaries. The bogus results from this dodgy app by a Buttigieg backer created the false impression that he had pull
Re: The damage has been done (Score:2)
Funny how the paper ballot counts also show Buttigieg ahead. They must have been hacked by the Buttigieg campaign too, right?
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Re:The damage has been done (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: The damage has been done (Score:3, Informative)
Re: The damage has been done (Score:5, Funny)
She lost because she was a terrible candidate, a worse campaigner, and terrible human being.
I'm with you here.
She was quite literally the only potential DNC candidate on the planet who could have lost to a TV show ass clown with no experience like Trump.
DNC 2020: "Hold my beer."
Re: The damage has been done (Score:2)
Melania is young? She's 50 years old. That's young? Man, I'm just a little kid at 40.
They already have (Score:2)
That little "tiff" that Sanders and Warren got into some weeks ago. Bernie had a good shot in 2016 but the DNC worked against him. The DNC head was already bringing up the fact with newspapers that Bernie was Jewish and that won't go over well in the south. Expect similar shenanigans from them again.
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By all means, stick with The Russians! hoax. It's worked so well these past three years. You guys don't look like fools at all!
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The soviets were an actual threat. The russians aren't an actual threat. China is an actual threat. The DNC and it appears most democrats would rather be in bed with the CCP, then say dealing with Russia and creating a protective buffer against China going balls fucking stupid like they currently are in the south china sea.
Re: The damage has been done (Score:2)
Learn what communism is.
Bernie Sanders will drain the swamp (Score:5, Funny)
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Haha! That's funny. You're cute.
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And we all thought Trump would drain the swamp.
Re:You keep on saying "malfunctioned"... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well I suppose there's a point in my last couple of sentences. After all, some of the people who were tied to Lois Lerner still work for the IRS, and she's still fighting various tea party groups to stop the disclosure of her emails - and the courts have blocked FOIA requests from being disclosed on that until the court cases have been determined.
So I guess, if you've got die-hard crazies who will do anything to protect the DNC, then DNC supporters are kinda fucked aren't they.
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Always double down on crazy. That's your point? Are you denying the existence of 'die-hard crazies' in other political groups or movements? Or are you implying that the existence of those die-hard crazies does not render supporters of those groups "fucked" ?
Well let's look at the "crazy" in the RNC. The neocons were tossed on their ass, the tea party groups moderated. As long as people don't rock the boat too hard, they accept various groups of people. The "religious nuts" that progressives and democrats like to screech about are quite happy having a voice and well, they sure the hell aren't screaming from the rooftops that the end times are coming either.
But on the DNC side we have what? Absolute crazies. Not only that but the DNC embraced the neocons th
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But on the DNC side we have what? Absolute crazies.
That's what it takes to win a party nomination. Cater to your people way out on the fringe so they don't split off and take their votes to a third party. But then you've got to get your candidate back in the middle of the road to win the election by attracting fence-sitters. It's a tough job.
Basically, you need a moderate candidate that can lie to its fringe members. And keep them from wandering off. But then you need to convince the general public that they are honest enough for the job.
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You're eventually going to be steamrolled by the beast you wholeheartedly support. Either that, or you'll be part of a gang kicking a farmer off his farm.
All for the Party! Eh, comrade??
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The IRS did target 501(c)(4) organizations with political sounding names, but not just conservative ones.
Remember the IRS Scandal? It was fake news all along. [newsweek.com]
Liberal groups got IRS scrutiny, too, inspector general suggests [washingtonpost.com]
In Targeting Political Groups, I.R.S. Crossed Party Lines [nytimes.com]
A federal watchdog investigating whether the Internal Revenue Service unfairly targeted conservative political groups seeking tax-exempt status said that the agency also scrutinized organizations assoicated with liberal causes from 2004 to 2013.
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Strange, conservatives have been pushing for voter ID for years. That would fix a lot of problems at the end-result. Other matters like candidacy requirements are set either by the party itself(in other words YOU have to get involved), or are a direct point based off of "states rights" which shouldn't be trampled on.
Never mind, how many states have tried to fix various issues with voting and it always seems to be these left wing groups, left wing lawyers, left wing tied politicos, who take it to court...
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I think the fear needs to be brought back into being a politician. You fuck up real bad in the 1800s and you might get tarred and feathered and run out of town if you're lucky. Nowadays it doesn't matter what letter is in front of your name you all play for the same team at the end of the day, the government. Always expanding and intruding into more areas of your life. The government has a full time staff for creating laws. How many laws ever go away? At some point won't there be enough laws on the books? S
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It was during this period that secret ballots became the norm, and the voter initiat
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Re: US elections & the US Government (Score:2)
Felons should be able to vote.
Can you find any examples of dead people or non-citizens voting? Because I bet you can't. Because you're spouting nonsense talking points generated by right-wing political operations to undermine democracy.
You and your kind will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
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You're a god damn idiot. Go read the court cases and purged names [judicialwatch.org] tied in those cases, they're full of people who've been dead for 10 years or more who voted in the last two presidential elections, and thousands of non-citizens who were on the roles and also cast votes. In more then 5 states.