Researchers Trick Tesla Into Accelerating 50 Miles Per Hour (technologyreview.com) 171
mrwireless writes: Security researchers were able to get multiple Tesla cars to accelerate to 85 miles per hour on a road with a speed limit of 35. They did this by simply modifying the speed limit sign with some black tape, turning a "3" into an "8." Mobileye, the company that produces the Mobileye Eye Q3 for many of Tesla's cars, downplayed the research by suggesting that the modified sign would fool even a human into reading 85 instead of 35. "Autonomous vehicle technology will not rely on sensing alone, but will also be supported by various other technologies and data, such as crowdsourced mapping, to ensure the reliability of the information received from the camera sensors and offer more robust redundancies and safety," the Mobileye spokesperson said in a statement.
MIT Technology Review: "Tesla has since moved to proprietary cameras on newer models, and Mobileye EyeQ3 has released several new versions of its cameras that in preliminary testing were not susceptible to this exact attack."
MIT Technology Review: "Tesla has since moved to proprietary cameras on newer models, and Mobileye EyeQ3 has released several new versions of its cameras that in preliminary testing were not susceptible to this exact attack."
Common Sense (Score:5, Insightful)
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People have common sense...
"Nearly 1.25 million people die in road crashes each year"
https://www.asirt.org/safe-tra... [asirt.org]
I've noticed that my phone seems to know the speed limit better than I do.
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My phone (via the Waze app) has told me that the speed limit was 85 mph, because the speed limit was 85 mph. I totally do not understand your point. That speed makes plenty of sense on highways.
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The story title is very poorly written. And, frankly, it's yet another knock against the /. editor that posted it.
The sign originally said 35 mph. They modified it to trick the car into thinking it was 85 mph. So the car accelerated towards the new speed limit - a difference of 50 mph over what it should have been.
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That's okay, the driver will take a look at the road when the orange falls from the steering wheel and notice in time. Just like with firetrucks.
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Since the Tesla didn't go 85, perhaps it was doing just that. I wouldn't be surprised if there were people who would go 50 in most 35 zones, knowing full well what the actual limit was.
Re:Common Sense (Score:5, Insightful)
The basic speed law, which human drivers are held to, is to never operate your vehicle in an unsafe manner. If you are on a road that actually *is* posted to "allow" 85 mph, it doesn't mean it's always OK to go that fast.
Conditions and circumstances matter. If your'e running on your space saver tire, you have to moderate your speed. If the road is icy, you have to moderate your speed. If there's a music festival and people are walking along the side of the road ... you get the picture.
You'd hope that the software's algorithms don't rely solely on the posted speed limit, even with out tampering that's far from infallible. The software should deduce that it should be going a lot slower than 85 on a road that's reasonably posted at 35. It's not limited access; it has curves you can't see around; it has no breakdown lane.
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There is one road near where I am that flips 80 to 50 to 80 to 50 a few times...on a pure 10km straight stretch (and seems entirely arbitrary since it doesn't match houses off the road). The police have a field day with drive
Re:Common Sense (Score:5, Funny)
For those in your frozen north though... 80kmph is general highways, while 50kmph is city.
While I've owned some ridiculously fast cars in my life, I've yet to get one up to 50,000 mph let alone 80,000 mph. A bit over 200 mph is about as fast as I've managed.
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"For those in your frozen north though... 80kmph is general highways, while 50kmph is city..except 50 is also highways nearer residential (except when 60 or 40 or 70), and sometimes for no apparent bloody reason (it seems) "
Speed limit on highways in Canada is 100 kph, 30 to 50 is a common speed limit in towns or citys, and I've rarely found limits unjustified (which doesn't mean they weren't).
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Speed limits on major freeways such as the 400 series highways in Ontario is 100 km/h (or 110 km/h) in certain areas, but most other 2 lane highways the speed limit is 80 km/h.
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The basic speed law, which human drivers are held to, is to never operate your vehicle in an unsafe manner. If you are on a road that actually *is* posted to "allow" 85 mph, it doesn't mean it's always OK to go that fast.
Agreed in general, but the speed limit and the circumstances do not always align. In the UK there is a general rule that the presence of street lighting means a 30mph limit by default. However I could show you some remote non-busy straight country roads between open fields where there is suddenly a 30mph limit. There is a conspiracy theory that unmade side tracks off such stretches probably lead to houses of local councillors or inflential big-wigs who want traffic to pass their areas more quietly.
Re: Common Sense (Score:2)
Exactly. Knowing if its in a residential area should put a hard limit on max speed. 85 is never ok unless on a limited access highway. Even highways that are not limited access (like those that farms connect to with all their private drives and/or intersecting state routes) usually cap at 55mph. Maps also can be faulty. I have a busy yet still residential road that connects 7 schools and feeds into a busier commute artery to/from downtown. It is 35mph the entire stretch with an occasional center lane for tu
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Exactly. Knowing if its in a residential area should put a hard limit on max speed.
What you say makes sense but this test does not really tell us what would happen in a real setting. Based on the video it looks like the test was performed on a private parking lot (pretty much a vast expanse of asphalt) so the car would not have had much external information to lean on to know how to limit speed. Also in the test the Tesla was never in autopilot mode: a human was driving manually and all that happened is the Tesla showed the posted speed limit as being 85 mph. So what the autopilot would h
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This is what's called crowdsourcing your algorithm. You put together a basic algorithm, and then put it out in public and let all the bloggers and researchers do the remaining work for you. Then you implement based on criticism, while claiming it was all unforeseen. See also: Windows 10 monthly updates.
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Probably the most secure way to communicate speeds to the cars/drivers will be to use radio transponders.
Not exactly secure either. Just hack the current one, or overpower it with your own. Unless/until the system is able of reliably determining(within the range of a human) a safe speed on its own, the best option would be to have multiple verification sources and error out if they don't match up. It still doesn't account for all sources being wrong, but it does raise the bar.
Re: Common Sense (Score:2)
And speaking of bar how about a hard cap on each type of road.
Residential
multiple access highway/state route
Limited access highway / state route
Interstate
Multi-access state routes (2 lane highways with traffic lights or just intersecting roads) typically cap out at 55. Residential is 35 and typically any residential that has no lane markings cap at 25. So a 35mph ceiling would have likely prevented a 50mph excess.
People do 70-80 in 55 zones on road that are under (Score:2)
People do 70-80 in 55 zones on road that are under posted.
It's sad that some roads under posted badly I-294 / I-94 (toll parts) needs to be at least 70 all the way so that work zone that really need to 45 don't get any respect.
At least put the work zones at 50-55 on I-294 (people are doing 70 - 75) in them when it's wide open
Even the 60 work zone on I-90 is an joke posted 70 flow 80+
Re: People do 70-80 in 55 zones on road that are u (Score:2)
How else will they make so much cash writing those fine-doubled speeding tickets? Think its an accident that 90% of the interstates in ohio are under construction all the time yet not one meter has ever been torn up for 2 years for a vast majority of them? Not only is no work going on, but no evidence ANY work has ever been performed or intended to BE performed. Just the orange work zone signs.
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Fine doubled? The roads named sound like Chicago. In Illinois, the minimum fine is $375 in a work zone. And that's for the first offense.
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i would say that that is very likely something an AI could achieve .. or even simple programming. As long as you know the part of the map you are in is residential, you know it can never be faster than 35. So regardless of what a sign says, do 35. if its wrong, the driver can take manual control. Its not going to be wrong though. If there are other cars on the road, it should also be able to determine their speeds based on relational math based on vector trajectories. If all other cars doing 35, its clearly
Works on Humans (Score:2)
Some part of Texas has 85 MPH speed limit.
Are you absolutely sure? How do you know someone didn't repaint the signs to change '35' into '85'? This trick works on humans too.
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Not getting pulled over and ticketed by the police car following me was a big clue.
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would have to be incredibly stupid person (Score:2)
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I absolutely would be "fooled" by this 85mph limit. At least that's what I'd tell the cops when they pull me over.
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this, and i assume it will hold up in court too.
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I doubt too many people will be fooled into believing an area with a 35 limit has an 85 limit (especially when nowhere int he country has that limit).
Wrong [wikipedia.org]
50 miles per hour (Score:2, Insightful)
50 miles per hour is not a unit of acceleration. One cannot "accelerate 50 miles per hour" like the OP's subject suggests.
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Re:50 miles per hour (Score:4, Insightful)
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No, it really isn't that hard to surmise what the editor was getting it. But, it gets a little harder to accept when: a) Their literal job title is "editor" b) It happens a lot.
Everybody has sent (likely multiple) e-mails with typos, improper grammar, etc. etc. in them. But how many times is the boss going to accept them in company-wide presentations? I'd think after the 2nd or 3rd you'd get a pretty good talking to.
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It is a criminal offense to deface a traffic sign, even temporarily, I hope they had of the permission of the local constabulary, if they did not, they should be prosecuted, as a warning to others.
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It is a criminal offense to deface a traffic sign, even temporarily, I hope they had of the permission of the local constabulary,
Based on the screenshot of the video in the fine article this was done on privately owned speed sign in a private parking lot.
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Not True (Score:5, Insightful)
The Tesla will never accelerate above the speed at which the Autopilot was initially set. For example, you could set the cruise control at 55, then engage Autopilot, which will limit the speed to 5 over the posted limit unless it's a divided highway. So if the speed limit drops to 35, the car will slow to 40. If the speed limit then jumps to 85, the car will accelerate to 55. If for any reason you canceled the Autopilot and took over manual control and resumed it, then the active limit would be down to 40, so it would not accelerate at all when seeing the sign saying 85.
Autopilot ignores the speed limits if it's a divided highway, so this only matters for local roads. On local roads, drivers will be canceling and restarting Autopilot at traffic lights or for many other reasons. Reading speed limit signs incorrectly is a little annoying, but hardly a serious problem. The worst is when it sees a lower limit sign that doesn't apply (like a school zone out of hours or a frontage road with a lower limit), and the car slows down when it shouldn't. But these are all local roads where drivers have to be paying attention, as there are far too many things the system doesn't handle anyway.
Oh, and I've had it misread a sign without any tape and briefly display on the dash that the speed limit was 85mph. It was funny, but the car didn't speed up.
It's no big deal. Unless you're looking for an excuse to drive a lot of traffic to your web site.
and when tesla auto pays tickets cops will fixit t (Score:2)
and when tesla auto pays tickets cops will fix it to rake in the cash.
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Reading speed limit signs incorrectly is a little annoying, but hardly a serious problem.
Sure, why even have speed limit signs at all?
Re: Not True (Score:2)
There's actually a good argument to be made for eliminating speed limit signs. I've driven in places where traffic enforcement is nonexistent; didn't see any real issues. It definitely wasn't as safe as driving in a first-world nation, but the extra danger didn't come from people driving at unsafe speeds so much as it did from them ignoring stop signs and traffic lights. People tend to adapt to road conditions, and traffic often makes the posted limit irrelevant anyway.
If we ever do get to the point tha
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There's actually a good argument to be made for eliminating speed limit signs. I've driven in places where traffic enforcement is nonexistent; didn't see any real issues.
My last speeding fine was in Morocco. Left a small village, accelerated up towards the national speed limit, turned a corner, missed the 60km/h limit sign, went past a school at 80km/h.
I didn't know there was a school just outside the village. The schoolkids didn't know a random tourist would be driving through their obscure part of Morocco and driving on the assumption it was open desert.
That speed limit sign added value. About twelve quid of value to the police, as well as hopefully reducing traffic casua
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My last speeding fine was in Morocco. Left a small village, accelerated up towards the national speed limit, turned a corner, missed the 60km/h limit sign, went past a school at 80km/h.
So in Morocco they don't post school zone signs, they just tuck their schools back off the roadway and rely on speed limit signs to protect the children? The posted speed in a school zone was 60 Km/h, or 37 MPH? That seems kinda fast - here in America we tend to limit school zones to 25 MPH and post school zone signs.
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Maybe I was doing 60 and should've been going slower? It was a while back.
They don't post speed change signs, which is why I thought I was outside of the village reduced speed zone.
Rather than school zone signs they paint the schools in bright stripes. Makes them obvious and visible from quite a distance. Unless you come around a corner up a hill.
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Tesla Cruise Control ignores speed limits. Unless you activate Auto Steer (i.e., Autopilot), it will do whatever speed you set it at, and it won't change when the limit changes.
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The way this attack would work is the victim sets the cruise speed to say 85, then the car comes to a slower section of road where the limit is say 55. Normally the car would see the sign and slow down, but today someone put tape on the sign and it decides that it will carry on at 85.
Of course the other safety systems will be in play like front facing radar, but those can't protect against things like trailers and some types of truck. Or speeding tickets for that matter.
In theory the driver should be paying
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This isn't autopilot, this is cruise control.
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No if you just use cruise control, it doesn't adjust for speed limits at all. The Auto Pilot will, but will never increase above the last manually set speed.
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The situations where you would set the cruise control to 85, engage Auto Pilot, then enter a 30mph zone, slow down to 35 (it goes 5mph over), and then enter a 35mph zone with an altered sign and accelerate to 85 as described in the article are all quite contrived. Yes, it's theoretically possible, but no, this isn't the sort of scenario that is going to impact real drivers.
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Wouldn't have to be a 30 zone, even a 60 zone would give you a delta of 25 MPH and attract the attention of speed cameras and cops.
Also the 5 MPH over thing is not a very good idea in the UK. You can be convicted of speeding by doing 35 in a 30 zone.
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Also, Tesla doesn't read speed limit signs on anything except Mobileye-based AP1 due apparently to Mobileye patents. Reading speed limit signs is basically a machine learning party trick these days, so it's not like they can't; they just don't.
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It slows down gently, not hard braking like it would if it detected an object in front of the car, but enough that the driver will feel it and take over. It's not likely to cause an accident even with tailgating, though an aggressive tailgater might think the driver was checking them.
old software, not valid anymore (Score:5, Insightful)
tesla stopped using mobileeye a LONG time ago.
so, this article is FUD. its a statement on M.E. and not tesla.
that said, M.E. is still better software, but as for this article, its just more pot shots at tesla. it seems fashionable to try to mention tesla in any way you can..
Re:old software, not valid anymore (Score:5, Informative)
All those pre-2017 Tesla's sold with MobileEye technology? Obsolete. Take them to the electronics recycler.
It's a statement on Tesla. Tesla selected MobilEye for its HW1 technology. Tesla pushes updates to vehicles with HW1 technology.
Name any other vehicle deployed to consumers that attempts to read speed limits off of road signs. It's not a pot shot. It's a valid criticism of a design flaw.
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Every other vehicle in the world that isn't driven by auto pilot attempts to read speed limits of road signs. The outrage here is absurd. I'm actually wondering if this wasn't sponsored by the onion.
Many other vehicles. (Score:2)
"Name any other vehicle deployed to consumers that attempts to read speed limits off of road signs."
Pretty much any modern car - BMW, Audi, Mercedes... they have cameras, sign recognition, adaptive cruise control.
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Oooo... burned me with a system that is only available in Europe.
Except that it will only increase speed up to a manually set speed [ford.com], which cannot be set to be greater than the then-indicated maximum legal speed. And also cross-checks data from the vehicle mapping system.
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Facts straight from the Ford manual are flamebait. That's quality moderation for you.
This OP is lying (Score:5, Informative)
They didn't turn a '3' into an '8'. They just lengthened the middle prong on the three. It's still obviously a three. Take a look yourself.
https://cdn.technologyreview.c... [technologyreview.com]
These Mobileeye people who are saying that real people would be tricked by this are a bunch of liars.
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That's a nice closeup of the speed limit sign. And yes people would easily interpret that as an 8 at a distance or at a glance. It sure as heck doesn't look like a 3.
Incidentally that's relevant. No sane person drives 85mph on a 35mph road, they are afterall 35mph for a reason.
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The courts disagree about the sanity.
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Only older models. (Score:5, Informative)
The full truth about this is that the cars they tricked were older model cars that were built with a chip that is no longer used by Tesla.
More recent Tesla models don't attempt to read speed limit signs. Instead, they rely on mapping data.
The mapping data has it's own issues: it has been suggested that one cause of the phantom braking issue is streets running over or under the freeway that have lower speed limits.
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The full truth about this is those "older model cars" are well within their service lives. Ford didn't get a pass on the Pinto simply because they were older model cars replaced by the Fiesta.
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Yeah, it's a good thing there's no secondary market for used cars.
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No, but an over-the-air firmware update may fix the issue.
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Police don't change the speed limit - only enforce it. Local ordinances set the speed limits, are placed by non-police and signs may get damaged or knocked over at any point.
Since the beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
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Researchers discover "Garbage In, Garbage Out" - news at 11:00
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On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
—Charles Babbage, Passages from the Life of a Philosopher
Awesome quote, I love it. I'm going to use it frequently. I may make a t-shirt with it, though it's a little long for a t-shirt.
Speed limit DB + GPS has issues as well (Score:2)
Speed limit DB + GPS has issues as well
Like some times an GPS can say you on frontage road when you are really on the main highway or even on road that is over passing you.
Tunnels / Mounting areas.
Now an Speed limit DB can get stale
May not have the detailed level needed. Like at mile 1.3 WB is 55 and EB is 65. Or the road changes speed half way from the next intersect point.
Also how many paid mods will you need just to keep up with level of data in 1 metro area?? Out source it to place where workers have no
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I have speed limits displayed by both my Honda Insight's dashboard and on my Garmin Drive GPS. They sometimes mismatch... the car display is easily confused by things like a State Route 70 sign just outside the dealership causing it to display Limit 70. The GPS screen is more accurate... just please don't link these things to automated enforcement systems.
Flux Capacitor (Score:3)
able to get multiple Tesla cars to accelerate to 85 miles per hour
*85* MPH?
Everyone knows the flux capacitor won't engage until the car is up to 88 miles-per-hour!
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Units conflict... (Score:2)
Good Lord! *choke*! (Score:2)
My god, what will it do when it comes across one of those "ONE LANE" signs that the hippies have changed to say "ONE PLANET"?
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It’ll pull over, start playing some Grateful Dead, and suggest the driver take a couple hits from a doobie.
Works with regular cars too (Score:2)
THIS IS BULLSH*T.... (Score:2)
Please, for the love of god Slashdot, quit posting bullshit articles.
Wow, they really got something here! (Score:2)
Now replace it with an 85 km/h sign and see how humans do!
They also tricked... (Score:3)
...2351 old grannies, 3543 gramps, 17632 people without their prescribed glasses on and the rest ignored speed limits on general principle.
Idiot! (Score:2)
The image in the article CLEARLY shows that the middle section of the 3 was extended, making it still recognizable as a 3. I expect a written apology.
kidding much (Score:5, Interesting)
They did this by simply modifying the speed limit sign with some black tape, turning a "3" into an "8."
You're kidding, right?
So they showed the car camera a sign that says "85" and then act all surprised when it believes that there was a sign that said "85" ?
Yes, I saw the actual picture. Most humans would not misread it. The software does because its recognition works differently from ours.
Here's the thing: We all know that image recognition is very successful, but has edge cases. The school bus mistaken for a giraffe, etc.
It's an interesting hack, but it's basically just saying "look, we found way 1001 how to trick image recognition software". Yes you did. Here's your badge, now take a number and stand in line.
The only reason this is a news item at all is because "Tesla". Seems not all the shorters were squeezed out yet and we're back to "look at what things Tesla gets wrong (and let's not talk about other cars)". I mean, I drive a BMW and love it, but is traffic sign recognition sometimes fails on signs that weren't even manipulated in any way. I don't see news articles about that, and my best guess is that it's because nobody with deep pockets is shorting BMW.
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They did this by simply modifying the speed limit sign with some black tape, turning a "3" into an "8."
It's an interesting hack, but it's basically just saying "look, we found way 1001 how to trick image recognition software". Yes you did. Here's your badge, now take a number and stand in line.
As someone who works with safety critical engineering systems, this raises concerns to me far beyond the image recognition software. It tells me that the Tesla Autopilot software is relying on a single source of data to set a safety critical parameter (speed) - a huge no-no in any safety critical system (see 737 MAX). Even if the sign were read as 85mph, a good driver would evaluate his surroundings and the road conditions before deciding whether to accelerate. Common sense would dictate that a sign indicating a speed well above highway speed levels in a small rural road should not be taken at face value.
One should not be using a single source of data as a key input - and whether that data comes from image recognition software or the mapping software, the basic problem remains that the Tesla Autopilot is vulnerable to a critical safety issue if a single data input is corrupted. Ideally they should be having a combination of image recognition and mapping data, coupled with safety monitoring software to invalidate transient spikes in the data and obviously erroneous values.
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Even if the sign were read as 85mph, a good driver would evaluate his surroundings and the road conditions before deciding whether to accelerate. Common sense would dictate that a sign indicating a speed well above highway speed levels in a small rural road should not be taken at face value.
Agreed to that.
Now if we had C-ITS in place already, the car would have a digital signal from the sign as well, and speed information from the map data, and could play the usual "two votes beat one vote" game.
Though the car does take traffic around it into account, so you wan't be able to make it do crazy things during rush hour.
coupled with safety monitoring software to invalidate transient spikes in the data and obviously erroneous values.
Roads are messy things. My car does the same thing except for the auto-driving, it only uses the signs to inform me what it thinks the speed limit is.
Half of the time it's wrong. It
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Next up, researchers are able to "trick" street lights into staying on 24 hrs/day by taping over light sensor.
After that, we'll learn that researchers were able to "trick" a grocery store doorway into staying open by placing a gym weight on the mat.
I have the solution (Score:2)
Tape the license plate, too. Traffic monitoring cameras will not be able to identify your car.
So what? (Score:2)
First off, pretty sure vandalizing a traffic sign is a crime, so this is illegal.
Second, am I to understand that Tesla's will accelerate to the posted speed limit in all circumstances? That seems like the real story.
Third, so what? I mean seriously, do we honestly expect your car to keep an updated map of the entire country (or better, planet) with an accurate database of the maximum speed limit on every street? Because that is the only alternative to the car relying on highway signs and other indicators.
XKCD already covered this (Score:3)
" ... most people aren't murders"
https://www.xkcd.com/1958/ [xkcd.com]
Thatâ(TM)s nothing, look at this coyote... (Score:4, Funny)
He managed to trick a road runner by painting a tunnel on the side of a mountain
https://youtu.be/4iWvedIhWjM [youtu.be]
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Ignoring your trolling: This AP1. Made by Mobileye, not Tesla. It has no connection whatsoever to Tesla's AP system. Not "a different version"; it's an entirely different product, made by an entirely different company.
Also, I simply don't get the people trying to research "ways to trick self-driving systems that won't trick humans". Exactly what is the point of this research? How many people are out there trying to trick anyone? If said population wants to cause car crashes, why don't they want everyo
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Also, I simply don't get the people trying to research "ways to trick self-driving systems that won't trick humans". Exactly what is the point of this research? How many people are out there trying to trick anyone? If said population wants to cause car crashes, why don't they want everyone to crash? Who exactly is this murderous population that they're researching?
That's just how security researchers and engineers think. Any time we see a system (human or automated, though with much heavier focus on automated -- and novel -- systems) our instinctive reaction is to look for the ways it can be subverted. Whether or not anyone might want to subvert that system in that way is a consideration for a different group of people, those who take the results of the security research and perform risk assessment and threat modeling. A threat model does consider the nature, numb
Re: Fixed already (Score:2)
Or any reasonable person would point out that it doesn't fucking matter since the likelihood of assholes going out and fucking with speed limit signs is probably about the same as the likelihood of them throwing rocks from bridges, or removing stop signs at intersections (both of which have happened, and have killed people).
Funny enough, the jerkoff you were responding to made a legitimate defense of the tech. Once we find a problem like this we can, within days, patch millions of cars to mitigate or compl